I'm becoming very cynical about people who say they're interested in eqaulity

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 06:03PM #1

I worked on a few projects in Tanzania such as a prison, an AIDS clinic and a refuge for women. Only 5% of women in Tanzania go on to secondary education and believe me it's one of the more progressive African countries. I asked what they thought about feminism in the west and they said "it stands for white middle class women and hasn't ventured into the savannah".

TBH they're right. I think a lot of people claiming to support equality only support the equality of the group they're a part of. On another thread the findings of a report detailed that bright students from working class backgrounds were discriminated against based on where they were born. One recruiter said this:

One employer suggested firms were unwilling to sift through applications from those of working-class backgrounds. “Is there a diamond in the rough out there?” the unnamed recruiter told researchers. “Statistically it’s highly probable but the question is … how much mud do I have to sift through in that population to find that diamond?”

Now this is discrimination. Yet the same people who complain about sexism supported this stance. If they were really concerned about women they'd open their eyes to the fact that working class women are discriminated too.

It's not just feminism but a lot of people who claim to support equality seem to be only supporting their particular brand of equality because it's the flavor of the month.

Look at the hatred directed at Tim Hunt and then look at what these same people are doing to support other forms of inequality.

In essence people support one type of equality but might support another type of inequality.

I.e some types of discrimination are more fashionable than others.

NotCominBack · 20-07-2015 06:05PM

The word "interested" implies bias, therefore lacking in equality itself

pmasterson95 · 20-07-2015 06:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I worked on a few projects in Tanzania such as a prison, an AIDS clinic and a refuge for women. Only 5% of women in Tanzania go on to secondary education and believe me it's one of the more progressive African countries. I asked what they thought about feminism in the west and they said "it stands for white middle class women and hasn't ventured into the savannah".

TBH they're right. I think a lot of people claiming to support equality only support the equality of the group they're a part of. On another thread the findings of a report detailed that bright students from working class backgrounds were discriminated against based on where they were born. One recruiter said this:

Now this is discrimination. Yet the same people who complain about sexism supported this stance. If they were really concerned about women they'd open their eyes to the fact that working class women are discriminated too.

It's not just feminism but a lot of people who claim to support equality seem to be only supporting their particular brand of equality because it's the flavor of the month.

Look at the hatred directed at Tim Hunt and then look at what these same people are doing to support other forms of inequality.

Equality is just a fashionable word these days. Its gets spouted by many but few actually practice.

arayess · 20-07-2015 06:13PM

equality campaigning is a sham.
The worthies only really care about socially cool campaigns like the gay marriage one.
They are sheep at best or thank-whores at worst.

stuff like eliminating poverty or father's rights just isn't sexy enough as the poor are dirty, fathers...I'm sure they beat the wife... and the gays are ....well absolutely fabulous ...who wouldn't want to be pictured with their arms around david norris and panti

Like imagine how uncool campaigning with John Waters would be for fathers right - defo less facebook likes and the anti-god crowd would be cross too..but they are always cross.

everdead.ie · 20-07-2015 06:15PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I worked on a few projects in Tanzania such as a prison, an AIDS clinic and a refuge for women. Only 5% of women in Tanzania go on to secondary education and believe me it's one of the more progressive African countries. I asked what they thought about feminism in the west and they said "it stands for white middle class women and hasn't ventured into the savannah".

TBH they're right. I think a lot of people claiming to support equality only support the equality of the group they're a part of. On another thread the findings of a report detailed that bright students from working class backgrounds were discriminated against based on where they were born. One recruiter said this:

Now this is discrimination. Yet the same people who complain about sexism supported this stance. If they were really concerned about women they'd open their eyes to the fact that working class women are discriminated too.

It's not just feminism but a lot of people who claim to support equality seem to be only supporting their particular brand of equality because it's the flavor of the month.

Look at the hatred directed at Tim Hunt and then look at what these same people are doing to support other forms of inequality.

Did we not have a thread about discrimination against working class people a few weeks ago?

Tombi! · 20-07-2015 06:15PM

Like everything, campaigning for things has someone, somewhere organizing it that has an active interest in it personally.

Take the SSM for example: I could be gay. I could know someone who is gay. I could think that the future generations deserve to marry who they want. I could feel that people who are the same sex have a right to get married.

All of that is a personal interest.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 06:17PM

Tombi! wrote: »

Like everything, campaigning for things has someone, somewhere organizing it that has an active interest in it personally.

Take the SSM for example: I could be gay. I could know someone who is gay. I could think that the future generations deserve to marry who they want. I could feel that people who are the same sex have a right to get married.

All of that is a personal interest.

Well that's true but often people claim to support women say. Yet they only support middle class women. They don't want to know or don't know what's happening in countries like Tanzania.

NotCominBack · 20-07-2015 06:23PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

Did we not have a thread about discrimination against working class people a few weeks ago?

Discriminating against the descrimination thread?

ToddyDoody · 20-07-2015 06:23PM

NotCominBack wrote: »

The word "interested" implies bias, therefore lacking in equality itself

And not forgetting that equality can be quite boring, so they could be lying.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 06:26PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

Did we not have a thread about discrimination against working class people a few weeks ago?

It's not about working class. To illustrate my point I consider myself an egalitarian in that I think everyone should have equality of opportunity. I don't favor one group over another but desire to see an even playing ground when it comes to opportunity.

ChunkyLover54 · 20-07-2015 06:35PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I worked on a few projects in Tanzania such as a prison, an AIDS clinic and a refuge for women. Only 5% of women in Tanzania go on to secondary education and believe me it's one of the more progressive African countries. I asked what they thought about feminism in the west and they said "it stands for white middle class women and hasn't ventured into the savannah".

TBH they're right. I think a lot of people claiming to support equality only support the equality of the group they're a part of..

I don't think there's anything strange about "white middle class women" in the west being more concerned about equality issues at home than what's happening in Tanzania.

What would you suppose they do to support feminism and equality in Tanzania?

Tombi! · 20-07-2015 06:37PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's true but often people claim to support women say. Yet they only support middle class women. They don't want to know or don't know what's happening in countries like Tanzania.

Does it affect them?
Feminism, men's rights, "activists" of whatever (within reason), care about themselves. Their own people and groups.

The difference is that some things are seen country wide as "good". For example, voting yes in SSM would be a "good" thing in the eyes of many people.

Things like third world countries and the lack of human rights there doesn't matter since it's not in our country, not in our immediate location so it's too difficult to do anything about it. Hence why a lot of activists for whatever, do it online since you have the internet reaching the world.

darkpagandeath · 20-07-2015 06:38PM

Would it not be interested in looking interested in Equality for the High fives ? No matter how contradictory it can look.

RDM_83 again · 20-07-2015 06:42PM

I think if you dig deeper and think big barely anybody in the west actually wants equality.
We simply can't support the worlds population being raised to a western or close to western standard of living, the technology simply isn't there Fusion has been a pipe dream for decades and the break even point remains decades in the future.
The world could be less unequal and the current trends of the super-wealthy are a huge negative but I've the honesty to admit I would rather that people in the 3rd world are poor if it means me, my friends and family have access to a living wage, good affordable healthcare, provisions for them when they grow to old/loose employment/can't work, housing no worse than we have now and a diet thats at least equivalent to an Irish 60's or 70's one.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 06:43PM

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

I don't think there's anything strange about "white middle class women" in the west being more concerned about equality issues at home than what's happening in Tanzania.

What would you suppose they do to support feminism and equality in Tanzania?

Well for one stop insulting them by saying they support all women. They don't.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 06:45PM

Tombi! wrote: »

Does it affect them?
Feminism, men's rights, "activists" of whatever (within reason), care about themselves. Their own people and groups.

The difference is that some things are seen country wide as "good". For example, voting yes in SSM would be a "good" thing in the eyes of many people.

Things like third world countries and the lack of human rights there doesn't matter since it's not in our country, not in our immediate location so it's too difficult to do anything about it. Hence why a lot of activists for whatever, do it online since you have the internet reaching the world.

But there still is class discrimination in this country. It's fair more prevalent than some of the discrimination feminists say are prevalent.

hatrickpatrick · 20-07-2015 06:52PM

You're totally right. True equality means living in a society which is blind to demographic differences when judging people. You don't achieve that by creating more conflict where there doesn't need to be any, but this is what the vast majority of the "equality" movements do as a starting point.

The whole "Black Lives Matter" thing in the States is a pretty good example. The fight against police brutality would enjoy a lot more cross-society support if it didn't begin with the premise that when a white guy or a Mexican is shot by a cop, it isn't as big a deal. Nobody's suggesting it doesn't happen more often to black men, but the fact is that by focusing only on that when fighting it, you send a message to other demographics that their own grievances with an overly militarised police force are irrelevant, and unwelcome in that debate. Ergo, unnecessary conflict.

The institutions being fought love the conflict of course. To quote Sir Richard from Yes Minister, "Why do you think we always started civil wars in the colonies we gave independence to? Instead of bothering us, they kept themselves busy by fighting eachother!"

hatrickpatrick · 20-07-2015 06:56PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But there still is class discrimination in this country.

Nobody wants to talk about that because that involves getting people to look at their own prejudices, which are extremely prevalent.
I'm always amazed at how many middle class, private school educated, "enlightened" and "intellectual" people my own age profess to be above racism, sexism, etc and moreover to be absolutely disgusted by those who engage in it - but will happily go on long rants about Travellers if someone mentions taking a trip to Dunsink Observatory. Same thing with class discrimination - we had a thread here on Boards a little while ago about discrimination based on accents, and someone threw in "Well, if you sound like your from the Gardiner St Flats (a block of '50s council flats) then you can hardly expect to get hired above someone who sounds like they're from Foxrock" or some such bullsh!t.

The reason we don't talk about class discrimination in Ireland is because for some bizarre and sad reason, it's still widely socially acceptable.

LDN_Irish · 20-07-2015 07:07PM

You're actually right. I often talk about discrimination against the working classes and complaining about the lack I equality, but I'm rarely (never) thinking about the Tanzanian working classes when I'm discussing it.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 07:08PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

You're actually right. I often talk about discrimination against the working classes and complaining about the lack I equality, but I'm rarely (never) thinking about the Tanzanian working classes when I'm discussing it.

I should change my OP to people talk about fighting inequality but they accept and even support other types.

ToddyDoody · 20-07-2015 07:27PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Would it not be interested in looking interested in Equality for the High fives ? No matter how contradictory it can look.

Come again?

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 07:35PM

OP most people who do any kind of social or charity work, do it close to home with like minded activists and recipients who are predisposes to receive that work

You went far away from home to do your (commendable) charity work and wondered why other people don't it the way you did it. Fair enough. But you went further and doubted their sincerity because they don't go out foreign to spread feminism.

That's silly. Your question is silly.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 07:37PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OP most people who do any kind of social or charity work, do it close to home with like minded recipients who are predisposes to receive that work

You went to far away from home to do your (commendable) charity work and wondered why other people don't it the way you did it. Fair enough. But you went further and doubted their sincerity because they don't go out foreign to spread feminism.

That's silly. Your question is silly.

No I'm saying they ignore or even promote other types of discrimination. E.G they might promote feminism but only when it comes to middle class women.

jimgoose · 20-07-2015 07:42PM

The only cure for this is nanotechnology. Once the entire planet becomes a uniform Grey Goo of microscopic machines thrashing about frantically searching for more material with which to replicate themselves (picture most provincial-town nightclubs), inequality will be a thing of the past.

osarusan · 20-07-2015 07:42PM

To be honest, I doubt you'll find many people who are equally interested/campaign equally in all aspects of equality for everybody.

You'd end up being cynical of everyone.

Deranged96 · 20-07-2015 07:50PM

Who actually says "I'm interested in equality" when not in the context of a specific issue?

I'm not sure we should care about what African women think of Western feminism. I'm not sure why Afican women should care about our Feminsim either. I'm surprised they even have an opinion of it and a social commentary remake to boot!

It's not like inequality is going to be razed to the ground in on fell swoop.. Taking it one step/fad at a time has provided results thus far.

As far global inequality, that's a different kettle of fish and is not comparable to our own "inequality"

Cold War Kid · 20-07-2015 07:50PM

jimgoose wrote: »

a uniform Grey Goo of microscopic machines thrashing about frantically searching for more material with which to replicate

... You know what I'm thinking.

(Genre: Prog rock).

jimgoose · 20-07-2015 07:52PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

... You know what I'm thinking.

(Genre: Prog rock).

Music can change the world, kiddo! :cool:

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 07:58PM

steddyeddy wrote:

No I'm saying they ignore or even promote other types of discrimination. E.G they might promote feminism but only when it comes to middle class women.

How do they do that?

I passively support feminism for myself and those around me, by behaving as a feminist. I do nothing for feminism in sub Sahara Africa and I do nothing to support travellers in my area. Does that invalidate the fact that I'm a feminist?

Trudiha · 20-07-2015 08:12PM

It's the intersectionality thing. The most obvious beneficiaries of any specific piece of equality legislation are going to be those only held back by that specific discrimination; white, middle class women are going to gain most from feminism because their class and colour aren’t discriminated against.

As a privileged, white, middle class dyke, I am aware of the irony of discussing feminism or gay rights with a poor, straight, white single father but it’s not a race to see who is more oppressed, our shared goals are probably similar.

QuinDixie · 20-07-2015 08:27PM

You take of your own. After helping family,friends and neighbours whose got time to be worrying about people in the 3rd world.
I was in Laos a few years ago, you could not move with the mount of NGOs there, and of course they all on a jolly.

K4t · 20-07-2015 08:45PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

One recruiter said this:

Now this is discrimination. Yet the same people who complain about sexism supported this stance. If they were really concerned about women they'd open their eyes to the fact that working class women are discriminated too.

You're confusing class with feminism here - working class males are also discriminated against in the interview process, perhaps even more so than their female counterparts.

It's not just feminism but a lot of people who claim to support equality seem to be only supporting their particular brand of equality because it's the flavor of the month.

As they're entitled to do. Also, there's nothing wrong with flavour of the month - the same sex marriage campaign started at a grass roots level, and in the end heavily relied on flavour of the month Yes supporters/voters of equality for it to become a reality. You just sound like you're moaning to be honest because there are poor people in Africa being neglected by the west - which is fair enough, just a strange way of going about it with this thread.

20-07-2015 08:54PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How do they do that?

I passively support feminism for myself and those around me, by behaving as a feminist. I do nothing for feminism in sub Sahara Africa and I do nothing to support travellers in my area. Does that invalidate the fact that I'm a feminist?

I think supporting women trying to start up their own businesses in places like india, through Kiva, is the closest I can get to effectively helping like
I tried donating to the gulabi gang as well but their website wouldn't work

I don't really get it otherwise. Would it not be more condescending for people here to claim they know best how to help women in an entirely different culture?
Is there some way for us to help them stamp out fgm? And then you get people saying it's just their culture leave them alone??
Seems an odd rant

NachoBusiness · 20-07-2015 09:03PM

What annoys me are feminists that haven't got an egalitarian bone in their body. They push for so much in certain areas for women, and succeed, that they will quite often create a situation where men are then disadvantaged / discriminated against instead and when this is pointed out to them, they will just say that men should then get up off their arse and do something about it like they did, completely ignoring the fact that men's lobby groups are taken about as serious as seven year old saying he's gonna leave home.

The Minister for Equality in the UK from a few years back, Harriet Harmon, a perfect example of one of those feminists.

[Father Trendy]
I see the human species as a seesaw. One side male and the other side female. If you keep raising up one side, trying to get it higher and higher up into the clouds, it will invariably have a knock on effect of lowering the other side into the gutter. So be an egalitarian, that way we can all enjoy our time in the playground of life.
[/Father Trendy]

20-07-2015 09:04PM

Trudiha wrote: »

It's the intersectionality thing. The most obvious beneficiaries of any specific piece of equality legislation are going to be those only held back by that specific discrimination; white, middle class women are going to gain most from feminism because their class and colour aren’t discriminated against.

As a privileged, white, middle class dyke, I am aware of the irony of discussing feminism or gay rights with a poor, straight, white single father but it’s not a race to see who is more oppressed, our shared goals are probably similar.

I agree with what you're saying but a cursory browse through Tumblr *shudder* shows that there is a ridiculously large number of keyboard warriors (largely, though not exclusively, middle-class American women) out there for whom a race to be the most discriminated against is exactly what their warped version of "equality" is all about! In theory I think such people are largely idiots who should be ignored but it can be difficult to do that when it's always the emptiest vessels that make the most noise.

Personally I've no problem calling myself a feminist (though I'm far too passive to be an activist of any sort) but it doesn't mean I agree with everything every self-identified feminist says. I don't buy into any of the "men can't be feminists", "women can't be sexist" or "trans women aren't really women" crap.

KomradeBishop · 20-07-2015 09:22PM

It's a matter of power and influence: We have the power/influence to affect how equal/unequal our part of the world is, but there's fúck all we can do in places where women are e.g. still essentially treated just as property.

You can't make the whole world equal all at once, because politics/international-politics gets in the way - many parts of the world are very fúcked up and will remain so for our lifetimes - but we can still improve our own lot, and try to culturally and politically put pressure on other parts of the world to improve.

When you think about it, it would be very arrogant for any of us, to assume we have or should have any say or political influence in other parts of the world - we do have some, sure, but it's very limited and not really enough to make much of a difference anywhere else.

So, the best we can do, is work to improve equality the best we can within our own sphere of influence - which is very limited. We don't really ever have perfect equality in reality, it's just an ideal - but we should never stop striving towards greater equality, because it generally (unless you deliberately take it to a ridiculous edge-case extreme) makes life better for everyone.

Co-incidentally, I was only just watching a documentary myself, on the Indian 'Pink Gang' group mentioned earlire (on the HBO show Vice, which was recommended to me - really really good), and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnpnd0T4gE

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 09:22PM

osarusan wrote: »

To be honest, I doubt you'll find many people who are equally interested/campaign equally in all aspects of equality for everybody.

You'd end up being cynical of everyone.

No I'm saying a lot of the people who say they stand for equality aren't doing it out of a sense of injustice rather a sense of self promotion.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 09:27PM

K4t wrote: »

You're confusing class with feminism here - working class males are also discriminated against in the interview process, perhaps even more so than their female counterparts.

As they're entitled to do. Also, there's nothing wrong with flavour of the month - the same sex marriage campaign started at a grass roots level, and in the end heavily relied on flavour of the month Yes supporters/voters of equality for it to become a reality. You just sound like you're moaning to be honest because there are poor people in Africa being neglected by the west - which is fair enough, just a strange way of going about it with this thread.

I'm not moaning. I'm reiterating the point that feminism only supports white middle class women. It doesn't support women and it isn't about equality.

On the first point you're confused. I'm not mixing up class and gender I'm a biologist I know the difference between the X and Y and a social construct. I was using that example to reiterate the point that feminism only supports white middle class women.

Oh I'm not turning this into a human rights debate. I believe everyone is entitled to be whatever they want. I'm just saying they're hypocrites.

Trudiha · 20-07-2015 09:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying but a cursory browse through Tumblr *shudder* shows that there is a ridiculously large number of keyboard warriors (largely, though not exclusively, middle-class American women) out there for whom a race to be the most discriminated against is exactly what their warped version of "equality" is all about! In theory I think such people are largely idiots who should be ignored but it can be difficult to do that when it's always the emptiest vessels that make the most noise.

Personally I've no problem calling myself a feminist (though I'm far too passive to be an activist of any sort) but it doesn't mean I agree with everything every self-identified feminist says. I don't buy into any of the "men can't be feminists", "women can't be sexist" or "trans women aren't really women" crap.

Feminism is a broad church, just like Christianity, there are those who’d think it was their Christian duty to buy a hungry person a sandwich and those who’d think it was their Christian duty to stick a burning cross on your front lawn.

That doesn’t make equality a bad thing or a done deal.

20-07-2015 09:32PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

When you think about it, it would be very arrogant for any of us, to assume we have or should have any say or political influence in other parts of the world - we do have some, sure, but it's very limited and not really enough to make much of a difference anywhere else.

So, the best we can do, is work to improve equality the best we can within our own sphere of influence - which is very limited. We don't really ever have perfect equality in reality, it's just an ideal - but we should never stop striving towards greater equality, because it generally (unless you deliberately take it to a ridiculous edge-case extreme) makes life better for everyone.

Co-incidentally, I was only just watching a documentary myself, on the Indian 'Pink Gang' group mentioned earlire (on the HBO show Vice, which was recommended to me - really really good), and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

The universe must be broken, we agree on something

I saw a documentary a while back on locals living around the taj mahal as well. They have a curfew or something so they don't upset the tourists, and life is awful hard for them
It's sad

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 09:33PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How do they do that?

I passively support feminism for myself and those around me, by behaving as a feminist. I do nothing for feminism in sub Sahara Africa and I do nothing to support travellers in my area. Does that invalidate the fact that I'm a feminist?

I'll put it this way. A lot of feminists in the west threw up a stink because a scientist wore a shirt with pictures of what I'd call sexy women on it. He was reduced to tears by feminists and the twitter mob.

Tanzania, Kenya and Congo (I'm not familiar with West Africa) are three countries in which women don't go to secondary school because of sexist policies. In the Congo they're more likely to be raped than to go to further education. There are men and women in all of these countries fighting for women's rights in these countries.

How do the women in the latter scenario feel about the feminists in the first scenario you think? Well the ones I talked to aren't happy to say the least because this type of feminism (the t-shirt kind) is a slap in the face to people looking for equal rights for the sexes.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 09:36PM

steddyeddy wrote:

I'm not moaning. I'm reiterating the point that feminism only supports white middle class women. It doesn't support women and it isn't about equality.

All feminism or SOME feminists?
If it's all feminism, you're wrong. If it's some feminists, your point is boring.

steddyeddy wrote:

Oh I'm not turning this into a human rights debate. I believe everyone is entitled to be whatever they want. I'm just saying they're hypocrites.

Yeah you're being quite careful not to engage in debate about anything. You make a statement and when it's countered you move the goalposts and make another statement.

What exactly is your point? I'd love to see you state your current point and compare it to the OP.

RDM_83 again · 20-07-2015 09:36PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

Typed on a device that will be sent back to the 3rd world for "recycling" when it reaches the end of its useful lifespan, poisoning the people (who're desperate for the income it generates) and destroying the environment.

We're all part of the problem

20-07-2015 09:39PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

All feminism or SOME feminists?
If it's all feminism, you're wrong. If it's some feminists, your point is boring.

Yeah you're being quite careful not to engage in debate about anything. You make a statement and when it's countered you move the goalposts and make another statement.

What exactly is your point? I'd love to see you state your current point and compare it to the OP.

Some people in one part of the world have a different view to some people in another part of the world
We shouldn't do anything because people somewhere else have it harder

K4t · 20-07-2015 09:43PM

On the first point you're confused. I'm not mixing up class and gender I'm a biologist I know the difference between the X and Y and a social construct. I was using that example to reiterate the point that feminism only supports white middle class women.

And I'm reiterating the point which is that you can't expect feminism to stop class discrimination; men in that same job situation often experience worse prejudice. Feminism gets the working class woman the interview, but it can't get her a new house in Foxrock.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not moaning. I'm reiterating the point that feminism only supports white middle class women. It doesn't support women and it isn't about equality.

I assume you don't mean that white middle class women aren't women, or human? Feminism supports all women, but obviously middle to upper class women are going to benefit most from it for a number of reasons - 1. Because of class, they have money and 2. Because there's simply more of them than other classes of women in Ireland.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 09:44PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

All feminism or SOME feminists?
If it's all feminism, you're wrong. If it's some feminists, your point is boring.

Yeah you're being quite careful not to engage in debate about anything. You make a statement and when it's countered you move the goalposts and make another statement.

What exactly is your point? I'd love to see you state your current point and compare it to the OP.

My point is that a lot of people who claim to be fighting for equality aren't. That a lot of people are disingenuous and readily promote some peoples while discriminating against others.

As another poster brought up there was another thread where accents, jobs and place of birth were being discussed. Some people from the Tim Hunt thread (about a scientist allegedly discriminating against women) were lambasting Tim Hunt as sexist yet on this thread they engaged in some pretty discriminatory remarks about people from different socio economic areas from them.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 09:46PM

K4t wrote: »

And I'm reiterating the point which is that you can't expect feminism to stop class discrimination; men in that same job situation often experience worse prejudice. Feminism gets the working class woman the interview, but it can't get her a new house in Foxrock.

It gets middle class women the interview.

[/QUOTE]I assume you don't mean that white middle class women aren't women, or human? Feminism supports all women, but obviously middle to upper class women are going to benefit most from it for a number of reasons - 1. Because of class, they have money and 2. Because there's simply more of them than other classes of women in Ireland.[/QUOTE]

OK let's switch to America. A place with high levels of poverty. I don't see feminism doing much for the poor American women there.

Trudiha · 20-07-2015 09:48PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll put it this way. A lot of feminists in the west threw up a stink because a scientist wore a shirt with pictures of what I'd call sexy women on it. He was reduced to tears by feminists and the twitter mob.

Tanzania, Kenya and Congo (I'm not familiar with West Africa) are three countries in which women don't go to secondary school because of sexist policies. In the Congo they're more likely to be raped than to go to further education. There are men and women in all of these countries fighting for women's rights in these countries.

How do the women in the latter scenario feel about the feminists in the first scenario you think? Well the ones I talked to aren't happy to say the least because this type of feminism (the t-shirt kind) is a slap in the face to people looking for equal rights for the sexes.

These scenarios don't cancel each other out. Crying man putting away his sexy lady t-shirt, doesn't mean that any girl will stay in education for a shorter time. There is no lack of anger in the world, people can be angry and active about both things.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 09:48PM

steddyeddy wrote:

I'll put it this way. A lot of feminists in the west threw up a stink because a scientist wore a shirt with pictures of what I'd call sexy women on it. He was reduced to tears by feminists and the twitter mob.

I don't think many people were happy about that incident and I know I wasn't.

steddyeddy wrote:

Tanzania, Kenya and Congo (I'm not familiar with West Africa) are three countries in which women don't go to secondary school because of sexist policies. In the Congo they're more likely to be raped than to go to further education. There are men and women in all of these countries fighting for women's rights in these countries.

I don't think many people are happy about that situation and I know I'm not.

steddyeddy wrote:

How do the women in the latter scenario feel about the feminists in the first scenario you think? Well the ones I talked to aren't happy to say the least because this type of feminism (the t-shirt kind) is a slap in the face to people looking for equal rights for the sexes.

It's hard to watch you struggle with this. Women in Tanzania and women in Ireland BOTH experience sexism. Those in Tanzania presumably experience more sexism than women in Ireland. They both fight for equality. Some people are stupid and do stupid things. Those people do their cause no favours.
We don't measure movements by their most extreme edges. Jaysus a small bit of cop on would sort out this whole situation for you.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 09:51PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's a matter of power and influence: We have the power/influence to affect how equal/unequal our part of the world is, but there's fúck all we can do in places where women are e.g. still essentially treated just as property.

You can't make the whole world equal all at once, because politics/international-politics gets in the way - many parts of the world are very fúcked up and will remain so for our lifetimes - but we can still improve our own lot, and try to culturally and politically put pressure on other parts of the world to improve.

When you think about it, it would be very arrogant for any of us, to assume we have or should have any say or political influence in other parts of the world - we do have some, sure, but it's very limited and not really enough to make much of a difference anywhere else.

So, the best we can do, is work to improve equality the best we can within our own sphere of influence - which is very limited. We don't really ever have perfect equality in reality, it's just an ideal - but we should never stop striving towards greater equality, because it generally (unless you deliberately take it to a ridiculous edge-case extreme) makes life better for everyone.

Co-incidentally, I was only just watching a documentary myself, on the Indian 'Pink Gang' group mentioned earlire (on the HBO show Vice, which was recommended to me - really really good), and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnpnd0T4gE

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

I'm not talking about political influence KB. I'm talking about money. The women's group in Tanzania need money to be able to put women through school so they won't have to stay at home and sew or cook to support their families. They're looking for people to raise awareness that is all.

It's a bit sickening when feminist issues (they're not feminist) like what t-shirt someone is wearing gets more publicity than them. They have made contact with the American Association Of University Women several times with no response.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 09:52PM

bluewolf wrote:

Some people in one part of the world have a different view to some people in another part of the world We shouldn't do anything because people somewhere else have it harder

Nicely summarised but you forgot how the only riteous pursuit of equality is steddyeddy's crushed against classism in science.

I'm becoming very cynical about people who say they're interested in eqaulity

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