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Irish Aviation Authority - IAA

  • 06-09-2015 10:03AM
    #1
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭


    Mod note: Thread has been locked. 8/15 posts on page one were the OP laying out their stall.

    Second page was an off topic argument with accusations.



    For all people starting new threads RE the SCP and work experience etc, we'll keep this thread for everything to keep it central! If anyone has any questions about the IAA fire ahead.

    Anybody thinking about applying for the SCP? Some people in Shannon are pending a move to Dublin. The IAA do a recruitment drive every 2 years. The last was in 2013.

    Cork will need new controllers in 4/5 years if growth continues, Dublin will also, but expert ATCOs in Shannon will get them, opening a good few positions for new recruits in the ACC.

    Discuss whatever below, just giving some info on a few things. :)


Comments

  • #2
    Youngblood.III
    Site Banned Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Youngblood.III


    Do you need any specific background to apply?


  • #3
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    Education isn't wholly important, although you need to have passed 5 subjects in LC with a C or higher in two honour subjects, including mathematics. (19 years old minimum when applying) It's an aptitude based job, so if you got 600 points in the LC, and I got 400, I could be better suited because I have better spatial awareness and motivation, for example.

    Take a look on the IAA website under Air Traffic Management. the starting salary is removed from the website, but it's in the range of 32,500 to start. That's after 2 years training with no training allowance. Nothing's stopping you from applying though, if you get it, in 10 years from now you could be on E60,000 + a 21% shift allowance for working unsocial hours.


  • #4
    Youngblood.III
    Site Banned Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Youngblood.III


    I've been in the IAA building in Shannon, seems like a pleasant place to work.


  • #5
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    It is very nice, as is everyone that works there. The working hours are challenging at first, but only makes the job more unique compared to other jobs!


  • #6
    Youngblood.III
    Site Banned Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Youngblood.III


    Any upper age limit?


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  • #7
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    No upper age limit on applying. Just 19 or older with the appropriate requirements.


  • #8
    slanystu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15 ✭slanystu


    Shannon Control,

    Maybe you should state your association with the IAA a bit more clearly.

    Be very cautious as comments one Boards, Pprune, 20 Major et al have lead to serious trouble for ATCOs in the past.

    Somebody using the name Shannon Control posted some information on Pprune a few years back that could have led to some trouble had the comments not been removed.

    Stu


  • #9
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    Slanystu,

    I wouldn't be in a position to state that here, I have a lot of friends involved in aviation in various careers. I'm offering information which is all available on the IAA website.


  • #10
    slanystu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15 ✭slanystu


    I understand that, but just be careful what you post...eg about working hours. Nobody wants to see a fellow ATCO get in trouble for something small on here!


  • #11
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    I'm well aware of that, thank you though, wasn't trying to come across as doing anything disallowable. :)


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  • #12
    martinsvi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭martinsvi


    Shannon Control wrote: »
    It is very nice, as is everyone that works there.

    if your definition of being nice is bullying student pilots on their xc solos for slight drifts from procedures, then yes, there are certain Shannon ATCO's who are very NICE in this matter.. you should take a good look at yourself and take a lesson or two from Dublin FIS, it's much busier than Shannon lower, but students are dealt with care and sympathy even at the worst of times


  • #13
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    martinsvi wrote: »
    if your definition of being nice is bullying student pilots on their xc solos for slight drifts from procedures, then yes, there are certain Shannon ATCO's who are very NICE in this matter.. you should take a good look at yourself and take a lesson or two from Dublin FIS, it's much busier than Shannon lower, but students are dealt with care and sympathy even at the worst of times

    Dublin controllers receive the exact same amount of training and constant checks as every other positions in the country do. Every ACC has their fair share of controllers who are more chirpy than others - the same goes for letting a pilot drift off his/her procedure, some are more strict than others.. You can't generalise ACCs like that anyway, they're all living in Ireland and have the same amount of varying genders, religions and cultures, so they should be no different.


  • #14
    arctan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭arctan


    when do they recruit ATCE's ?


  • #15
    Shannon Control
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Shannon Control


    Engineering not my forte! I'm not sure how often they recruit. Anyone have any idea?


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    There's already a 39 page fairly active thread on this in A&A http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056921261


  • #17
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,245 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    Shannon Control wrote: »
    Education isn't wholly important, although you need to have passed 5 subjects in LC with a C or higher in two honour subjects, including mathematics. (19 years old minimum when applying) It's an aptitude based job, so if you got 600 points in the LC, and I got 400, I could be better suited because I have better spatial awareness and motivation, for example.

    Take a look on the IAA website under Air Traffic Management. the starting salary is removed from the website, but it's in the range of 32,500 to start. That's after 2 years training with no training allowance. Nothing's stopping you from applying though, if you get it, in 10 years from now you could be on E60,000 + a 21% shift allowance for working unsocial hours.

    32k for an air traffic controller ? What? Seriously ? The average wage in Ireland is about 42k is it not ? How can't ATC's in Ireland be paid so little ?


  • #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Locker10a wrote: »
    32k for an air traffic controller ? What? Seriously ? The average wage in Ireland is about 42k is it not ? How can't ATC's in Ireland be paid so little ?

    I believe they have to pay a ridiculous amount of money back to the IAA for their training over a number of years a six figure sum.


  • #19
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Locker10a wrote: »
    32k for an air traffic controller ? What? Seriously ? The average wage in Ireland is about 42k is it not ? How can't ATC's in Ireland be paid so little ?

    Average across all sectors is about 36k, average in the transport sector is just under 40k. http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=EHQ03.asp&TableName=Earnings+and+Labour+Costs&StatisticalProduct=DB_EH

    For that to be the average – and given the pyramid structure of many organisations – most people will be earning less than the average.


  • #20
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    martinsvi wrote: »
    bullying student pilots on their xc solos for slight drifts from procedures, then yes, there are certain Shannon ATCO's who are very NICE in this matter..

    Interesting comment and choice of words.

    I assume you can substantiate it?

    I would presume that the procedures are there for a reason and you either comply with the procedures or you don't.

    Failure to comply surely means that you are in violation of said procedures and possibly a hazard to yourself and other aviators?

    You specifically mention xc solos which I take to mean cross country solo flights.
    Perhaps they are not quite ready for this stage?


  • #21
    martinsvi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭martinsvi


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Interesting comment and choice of words.

    I assume you can substantiate it?

    appropriate people have been notified regarding 2 recent incidents, none of which is a concern to general public
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    I would presume that the procedures are there for a reason and you either comply with the procedures or you don't.

    Failure to comply surely means that you are in violation of said procedures and possibly a hazard to yourself and other aviators?

    when you send out a student solo, the person is not yet qualified, they don't hold a licence, the whole experience is a part of learning exercise which is probably one of the most stressful exercises during your training. They are bound to make mistakes. We're not talking about airspace breach or any other serious life or death situations but failures to read back QNH, frequencies or squawks in one go with first try, use of incorrect phraseology etc. If your ATCO has feedback to give, by all means contact the school and let your concerns be know, however bollocking over the radio when student is in the middle of the exercise is completely inappropriate and dangerous
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    You specifically mention xc solos which I take to mean cross country solo flights.
    Perhaps they are not quite ready for this stage?

    I believe CFI's are perfectly trained and qualified to make that call themselves


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  • #22
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    appropriate people have been notified regarding 2 recent incidents, none of which is a concern to general public
    So why then make the comments in a public forum about bullying?

    when you send out a student solo, the person is not yet qualified, they don't hold a licence,

    Not being a pilot I am going to assume that by "solo" there is only 1 person on the aircraft?

    They are bound to make mistakes.
    but failures to read back QNH, frequencies or squawks in one go with first try, use of incorrect phraseology etc

    I understand that "standard phraseology" is published for aviation.
    One could assume that this would be the first thing that an aspiring pilot should master and not be trying to learn it while actually flying?

    The odd mistake maybe but you mention plural so the question remains are they ready?
    I believe CFI's are perfectly trained and qualified to make that call themselves


    From many posts it is obvious that a significant (to me) sum of money is spent by aspiring pilots. With that in mind is it possible that some may be pushing too soon for solo flights in an attempt to save money?


  • #23
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,245 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    IRLConor wrote: »
    Average across all sectors is about 36k, average in the transport sector is just under 40k. http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=EHQ03.asp&TableName=Earnings+and+Labour+Costs&StatisticalProduct=DB_EH

    For that to be the average – and given the pyramid structure of many organisations – most people will be earning less than the average.


    Still For the job involved here 32k is rubbish... I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but in the UK and the rest of Europe renumeration for this role is much more than 32k, controllers in places like Dubai and the other deserts professionals flock to are sometimes on 100k easily!


  • #24
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    Still For the job involved here 32k is rubbish

    From the thread linked above post 23 refers.

    Starting salary is 32k rising over 20 points to 88k. A further 27% shift payment applies (post 33 includes an older salary scale) .


    The links to the IAA website is no longer working though.

    controllers in places like Dubai and the other deserts professionals flock to are sometimes on 100k easily!
    It is my understanding that the Middle East will typically only hire qualified and experienced ATC staff.


  • #25
    martinsvi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭martinsvi


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    So why then make the comments in a public forum about bullying?

    OP made a statement, that everyone in Shannon is nice. I only pointed out that it's not entirely true.

    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Not being a pilot I am going to assume that by "solo" there is only 1 person on the aircraft?
    that is correct - student is all by him(her)self, student has to fly at least 10 hours alone (solo) before (s)he can apply for the exam. Normally around 4 hours are just basic circuits with touch and go's, the other 6 should be navigation - cross country
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    I understand that "standard phraseology" is published for aviation.
    One could assume that this would be the first thing that an aspiring pilot should master and not be trying to learn it while actually flying?

    The odd mistake maybe but you mention plural so the question remains are they ready?

    trust me, every student sent solo has demonstrated sufficient skill and knowledge to be allowed to fly, FI's and CFI's trust their skin and bottoms by sending one solo.. the problem is when certain stress factors start to work together, such as possible navigation mistakes (no GPS/FMCs allowed), weather conditions, poor radio coverage etc, students are taught to fly the plane first and worry about communication later.. it's aviate, navigate, communicate and not the other way around! And this is where we expect the ATC to either be helpful or shut up, not overload the poor student with even more causes for stress.
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    From many posts it is obvious that a significant (to me) sum of money is spent by aspiring pilots. With that in mind is it possible that some may be pushing too soon for solo flights in an attempt to save money?

    no, you can't push for anything, you're sent when you're ready and not a minute sooner. In fact, for many students their solo xc is delayed due to weather, we want the wx to be perfect for anyone to set of to their 150NM journey. Also your navigation skills and radio work is tested during the skills test so there's no point rushing anywhere, you're not cheating anyone in this business, only yourself.

    I appreciate what you're trying to say but please don't judge until you've tried flying yourself! Its easy to be a smart ass procedure queen when sitting in the comfort of high end office chair in a front of a screen, trust me, things are a lot different 3000ft up in gusty winds when you're in a 40 year old spam can trying to figure out which way is home


  • #26
    pepe the prawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭pepe the prawn


    martinsvi wrote: »
    OP made a statement, that everyone in Shannon is nice. I only pointed out that it's not entirely true.



    that is correct - student is all by him(her)self, student has to fly at least 10 hours alone (solo) before (s)he can apply for the exam. Normally around 4 hours are just basic circuits with touch and go's, the other 6 should be navigation - cross country



    trust me, every student sent solo has demonstrated sufficient skill and knowledge to be allowed to fly, FI's and CFI's trust their skin and bottoms by sending one solo.. the problem is when certain stress factors start to work together, such as possible navigation mistakes (no GPS/FMCs allowed), weather conditions, poor radio coverage etc, students are taught to fly the plane first and worry about communication later.. it's aviate, navigate, communicate and not the other way around! And this is where we expect the ATC to either be helpful or shut up, not overload the poor student with even more causes for stress.



    no, you can't push for anything, you're sent when you're ready and not a minute sooner. In fact, for many students their solo xc is delayed due to weather, we want the wx to be perfect for anyone to set of to their 150NM journey. Also your navigation skills and radio work is tested during the skills test so there's no point rushing anywhere, you're not cheating anyone in this business, only yourself.

    I appreciate what you're trying to say but please don't judge until you've tried flying yourself! Its easy to be a smart ass procedure queen when sitting in the comfort of high end office chair in a front of a screen, trust me, things are a lot different 3000ft up in gusty winds when you're in a 40 year old spam can trying to figure out which way is home


    Did the student in question inform ATC on their initial call that they were a student pilot?


  • #27
    martinsvi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭martinsvi


    pepe the prawn wrote: »
    Did the student in question inform ATC on their initial call that they were a student pilot?

    yes, we would also include this info on the flight plan so that when it's opened up with FIS, they should know what to expect

    I'm not going to discuss it any further, if anyone has any questions, you can PM me. I don't want to drift this thread any more than it already has. I'm sure most Shannon ATCO's are nice and you probably know your naughty ones anyway, all I wanted really was to use this opportunity to raise awareness of whats it's like form the other side. GA community appreciates the open days organized by IAA and we have had multiple chances to see how the world looks like from your end and we are thankful for the opportunity. I guess GA community should give back by organizing some sort of open days for IAA employees to see what's its like to be up there in a tiny plane with no fancy technology backing you up


This discussion has been closed.
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