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We must rid ourselves of our ludicrous language laws

  • 22-09-2015 08:37AM
    #1
    josephryan1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 669 ✭✭✭


    A Garda stopped a man in Swords for speeding and then suspected him of drink driving after he noticed a strong smell of alcohol and performed a roadside breathalyser test which showed the man was well over the limit. The man appears to have a non-Irish name and therefore is not likely to be a speaker of the Irish language. However because of our ludicrous language laws the case was thrown out when it went to court because after the specimen was taken, the driver was not supplied with identical statements in Irish and English.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-ruling-puts-hundreds-of-drinkdriving-cases-under-threat-31547441.html

    Have you every heard of such BS in all your life?

    Potentially this could lead to many more convictions being thrown out.

    How many people in Swords, Co. Dublin can speak Irish or use Irish on a daily basis? So why in the flying feck should it make a difference if the statement wasn't in Irish?

    Potentially a drink driver caught red handed in the same circumstances can walk out of the court without punishment and then potentially get blind drunk once again and crash his car and kill innocent people. If he survives the crash and is tested and again his statement is not printed in Irish and English he can avoid a more serious conviction for driving drunk and causing the deaths.

    All because this state must keep up the surreal fantasy that Irish is the first language of this country when everyone knows that nobody speaks it in daily life apart from Gaeltacht areas where it is dying out.

    Lives could potentially be lost because of this absurdity.


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    golfball37
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Maybe the authorities should use some joined up thinking and apply the law the way its meant to be done. The Irish language or a foreign driver isn't the issue here. A lady representing victims of drink driving brought this to minister last January as a possible loophole and she wasn't listened to.


  • #3
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Legislation to prevent this was passed this morning.


  • #4
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's reduculous that a non national gets caught speeding and drink driving and now gets a get out of jail card based off no irish print was used .
    several hundred others including a senator are waiting to have there get out of jail card issued for motoring offences
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #5
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Gatling wrote: »
    It's reduculous that a non national gets caught speeding and drink driving and now gets a get out of jail card based off no irish print was used .
    several hundred others including a senator are waiting to have there get out of jail card issued for motoring offences

    The offence was created by statute. The statute was not complied with. Therefore the prosecution fails. Sounds like justice to me. It only applies to the drink driving offence.

    Put another way, if the statute wasnt there, there would be nothing legally wrong with drink driving, no blood alcohol limits etc. So if it was badly drafted, the government at the time should take responsibility. In this particular case, FF and the Greens decided to redraft the legislation and include a dual language printout without, it would seem, checking to see if the Intoxiliser machines could do it or without actually implementing it.

    In these situations governments like blaming the courts and others, but really it is up to them to make sure that such an important thing as the law is drafted correctly


  • #6
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Mooney's judgement was a piece of utter legal idiocy.

    It is time to start a campaign for the repeal of the ludicrous Official Languages Act 2003, which seems to underlie a lot of this kind of crap.


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  • #7
    delahuntv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭delahuntv


    Imagine how pissed off all those who went for the blood or urine sample to try and delay the results and hopefully a reading below the limit. (now called doing a Daly)

    No changes to their cases.


  • #8
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    .....In this particular case, FF and the Greens decided to redraft the legislation and include a dual language printout without, it would seem, checking to see if the Intoxiliser machines could do it or without actually implementing it.

    It appears it was actually Leo that signed in the relevant Statutory Instrument


  • #9
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    infacteh wrote: »
    It appears it was actually Leo that signed in the relevant Statutory Instrument

    I thought it was this one:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/si/433/made/en/print

    Its a pity that it takes a few days for Judgments and new legislation to be published or that the media would give specific information on the laws that are in question so that we would be able to follow it properly.


  • #10
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    I thought it was this one:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/si/433/made/en/print

    Its a pity that it takes a few days for Judgments and new legislation to be published or that the media would give specific information on the laws that are in question so that we would be able to follow it properly.

    That seems more likely. The Irish Times stated it was signed into law by Leo in October 2011. The one you mentioned is part of the RTA 1994, the whole drink driving legislation was overhaule with the RTA 2010, which wasn't enacted until 2011.

    Either way, I see no mention in either SI about a requirement to have the Section 13 statement in both languages!


  • #11
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    infacteh wrote: »
    That seems more likely. The Irish Times stated it was signed into law by Leo in October 2011. The one you mentioned is part of the RTA 1994, the whole drink driving legislation was overhaule with the RTA 2010, which wasn't enacted until 2011.

    Either way, I see no mention in either SI about a requirement to have the Section 13 statement in both languages!

    The Act says a certificate in the prescribed form and an SI like that would seem to make sense. Youre right that its for the 1994 Act. I cant seem to find one for the 2010 Act.


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  • #12
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    josephryan1989 wrote: »
    How many people in Swords, Co. Dublin can speak Irish or use Irish on a daily basis? So why in the flying feck should it make a difference if the statement wasn't in Irish?

    All because this state must keep up the surreal fantasy that Irish is the first language of this country when everyone knows that nobody speaks it in daily life apart from Gaeltacht areas where it is dying out.

    Lives could potentially be lost because of this absurdity.
    The Official Languages Act was passed due to pressure from Conradh na Gaelige and its affiliates. It's an organisation with one objective: the restoration of Irish as the common language of Ireland. It's an important part of their strategy that Irish be imposed on everyone, on street signage and official documents and websites at every opportunity.


  • #13
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Where are people seeing the requirement for the Irish language in any statute?


  • #14
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    We've indulged the Irish lobby enough over the years. Once the policy starts interfering with the safety of the public, it's time to shout "stop".


  • #15
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.


  • #16
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.
    It would help more if stupid requirements to promote the revival of Irish were not imposed on them. Their work is complicated enough as it is.


  • #17
    golfball37
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭golfball37


    If people don't like the Irish language and only want to live in a country where English predominates then they should move to the UK or Australia etc.

    I am fairly lapsed on the cupla focail but I'd be damned if we should ever give up on it.


  • #18
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    golfball37 wrote: »
    If people don't like the Irish language and only want to live in a country where English predominates then they should move to the UK or Australia etc.

    Absolutel bull**** for very obvious reasons - they already like in a country where English predominates.
    I am fairly lapsed on the cupla focail but I'd be damned if we should ever give up on it.


    Except that's not what anyone has suggested, now is it?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #19
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #20
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    It would help more if stupid requirements to promote the revival of Irish were not imposed on them. Their work is complicated enough as it is.
    The relevant SI is a short document (available in English) and includes the template form to be used. If simple instructions with a sample form cannot be followed without making a complete dogs dinner of things perhaps those responsibile should consider their own ability rather than whining about side issues.


  • #21
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,481 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Rounding numbers here but assuming that there are 4.5 million people in the Republic of Ireland then that would signify that 81,000 people are using Irish in their daily lives. I find this highly improbable.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #22
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #23
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    The relevant SI is a short document (available in English) and includes the template form to be used. If simple instructions with a sample form cannot be followed without making a complete dogs dinner of things perhaps those responsibile should consider their own ability rather than whining about side issues.

    makeing the roads safer is a side issue?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #24
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    makeing the roads safer is a side issue?
    No, that is the main issue.

    The side issue is deflecting attention onto the specific reason in this instance why the law is failing to make the roads safer.

    The simple fact is those entrusted with the task of making our roads safer didn't do their job properly. They couldn't write and follow simple instructions.

    That is why a number of prosecutions for drunk driving may fail and drivers who should morally be off the road may legally remain on the road.


  • #25
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Stheno wrote: »
    Legislation to prevent this was passed this morning.

    The core stupidity behind it cant be legislated away unfortunately.


  • #26
    Cedrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    Surely it's not beyond the capabilities of someone in the DPPs office or AGS to come up with a proforma bilingual coversheet that says, As Gaeilge agus as Bearla, "The machine generated numbers (in arabic numerals) on the attached printout prove that you were unfit to drive on the machine generated date (in arabic numerals) shown". Evidence presented in both official languages, case closed.

    Do fingerprints etc. have to be presented as gaeilge as well?


  • #27
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    This was a proper screw up, and the definition of unintended consequence. There are so many get out clauses in the official languages act that it isn't even the problem, the Irish language lobby wants to be able to use Irish with the state, not dilute other laws..

    Interestingly the machine has the ability to print out in English OR Irish.. But not both. It's a pity that it was interpreted into law the way it was.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/legislation-signed-to-close-drink-driving-loophole-1.2361351


  • #28
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    No, that is the main issue.

    The side issue is deflecting attention onto the specific reason in this instance why the law is failing to make the roads safer.

    The simple fact is those entrusted with the task of making our roads safer didn't do their job properly. They couldn't write and follow simple instructions.

    That is why a number of prosecutions for drunk driving may fail and drivers who should morally be off the road may legally remain on the road.

    If they caught the guy and gave him a ticket, I'd argue they did their job perfectly. Failing to accept responsbility for your actions and trying to worm out of the punishment is the side issue.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #29
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    If they caught the guy and gave him a ticket, I'd argue they did their job perfectly. Failing to accept responsbility for your actions and trying to worm out of the punishment is the side issue.

    The gardaí who intercepted these drivers did their job perfectly but have been let down by those further up the chain - our legislature, those who specified and accepted the equipment which did not comply with the legislation and those who ignored the warnings of this potential issue months ago.


  • #30
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    The gardaí who intercepted these drivers did their job perfectly but have been let down by those further up the chain - our legislature, those who specified and accepted the equipment which did not comply with the legislation and those who ignored the warnings of this potential issue months ago.

    Not what you said here.
    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #31
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Conradh na Gaelige stands up for the Irish language rights of drunks;
    NEW emergency legislation that changes the legal requirement that alcohol breath statements be provided in both English and Irish may be a slippery slope in denying native speakers their language rights, Conradh na Gaeilge has warned.

    Conradh's obsession with imposing Irish on the population knows no bounds.


  • #32
    Cosmo K
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Why couldn't they simply translate the printout for him?


  • #33
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Why couldn't they simply translate the printout for him?

    It had been submitted as evidence but was found (by the court) to not comply with the format required by law. It can't be changed after the fact.


  • #34
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,101 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Conradh na Gaelige stands up for the Irish language rights of drunks;



    Conradh's obsession with imposing Irish on the population knows no bounds.

    Is it wrong that I'm wondering that CnaG's members are the sort of ignoramuses that still think Danny Healy-Rae had a p(o)int with his drink-driving permits? :P


  • #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This problem is because you have Courts of Law, not Courts of Justice


  • #36
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Originally Posted by FishOnABike viewpost.gif
    The gardaí who intercepted these drivers did their job perfectly but have been let down by those further up the chain - our legislature, those who specified and accepted the equipment which did not comply with the legislation and those who ignored the warnings of this potential issue months ago.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Not what you said here.

    Originally Posted by FishOnABike viewpost.gif
    Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.

    There's no contradiction between the two posts. In the context "those enforcing it" doesn't necessarily include the arresting gardaí, and nowhere did I say it did.

    I deliberately used a non prescriptive inclusive term which may include (or not) anyone involved in the decision making processes relating to the implementation and operation of the legislation. This could possibly include (or not) more senior levels within An Garda Siochana, Dept. of Justice, Minister for Justice, Office of the DPP, Attorney General, Office of Government Procurement and/or others.

    However this whole legal argument is in itself a side issue possibly more suited to the legal discussion forum. The topic here is whether "We must rid ourselves of our ludicrous language laws". I would say not.

    The legislative requirements were available in the relevant SI in English, incorrectly implemented and warnings to this effect ignored. The Irish language requirement is not the problem.


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  • #37
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #38
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's not just politicians. Say it to a lobbyist as an ordinary citrizen and you're immediately a self-hating Anglophile trying to condemn someone else's rights and stmap out all traces of the language.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #39
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    From the linked article it appears the unsold Irish copies "were all at the bottom of a filing cabinet gathering dust in the planning department".

    How much of the €10,000 each is attributable to translation and how much to printing?

    For accessibility government publications should be downloadable for free and anybody wanting a hardcopy could order it from a self publishing facility like lulu to print on demand. This could be more cost effective overall.


  • #40
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,481 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    From the linked article it appears the unsold Irish copies "were all at the bottom of a filing cabinet gathering dust in the planning department".

    How much of the €10,000 each is attributable to translation and how much to printing?

    For accessibility government publications should be downloadable for free and anybody wanting a hardcopy could order it from a self publishing facility like lulu to print on demand. This could be more cost effective overall.

    Documents are not that expensive to print. Well below the €1,000 mark anyway. Translating these things into Irish is something that only a small few of the population will be able to do ironically so the cost will be sky high. The government aren't exactly restrained when it comes to frittering cash away on it after all.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #41
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #42
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,481 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Pretty much. I mentioned this to some friends who looked at me as if I'd just set a tricolour alight. The irony is that it's been the near century of various Irish governments who have done more to kill it than the British ever did. I even read once that Queen Elizabeth I even spoke a few words of it back in the day.

    Regarding foreign language skills, a lot of companies have located their customer service centres in Brighton where I live which has become something of a beacon for continental Europeans who are naturally multilingual and want to be able to go home conveniently. American Express even have their European headquarters here. Anyone fluent in English and another European language can usually land a decent job providing customer service here (1).

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #43
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    My impression was this was the inclusive cost of providing the translated documents.


  • #44
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #45
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,827 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    But for the Gaeilge, I'd have figured the imagery was about heart disease, or something. As you say, the lobby shapes the debate on this issue. Even the 'slippery slope' argument Shep_Dog linked to, they went there, that phrase...deary me. This is the problem with certain native speakers - they cannot see any balance between what's a right and what is practical and reasonable. I don't hate the language, but the discourse that surrounds it is ridiculous. If the language is to grow let it do so organically (or strip down the curriculum), and let's not have endless state-backed attempts to prop it up.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #46
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I wonder if it is time to revive the Language Freedom Movement that existed in the 1960s.

    This is what happened last time out:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Freedom_Movement

    However, I think there would be a more receptive climate today to a pressure group opposed to Gaelofascism.


  • #47
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,827 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    I don't support terms such as Gaeilgoir facists or Taliban. That's on the same spectrum of intolerance as when native tongued folk tell you to move to the UK.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #48
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    OK, forget the fascist bit.

    Should the LFM be re-started?


  • #49
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,783 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    But for the Gaeilge, I'd have figured the imagery was about heart disease, or something.
    To be honest, I couldn't quite figure out if they were heartbroken about the state of the language or considered it a heartbreak.


  • #50
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,678 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I wonder if it is time to revive the Language Freedom Movement that existed in the 1960s.

    This is what happened last time out:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Freedom_Movement

    However, I think there would be a more receptive climate today to a pressure group opposed to Gaelofascism.

    Entirely unsurprising that it was suppressed by brainless thugs.
    I wouldn't be entirely confident that that couldn't happen today, either.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #51
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Entirely unsurprising that it was suppressed by brainless thugs.
    I wouldn't be entirely confident that that couldn't happen today, either.
    The Irish lobby is far more sophisticated these days. Having now asserted the Irish language rights of non-Irish-speaking drunks, it's only a matter of time that they'll call in the HSE on parents who don't speak Irish to their kids.


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