petrol station failed to charge me

the_pen_turner · 03-01-2016 03:23AM #1

hi there.
about 2 years ago I pulled up at my local topaz to get diesel for my van .
I remember there was no cars there (odd so I noticed it)

I had to gesture to the cashier about turning on the pump.
I topped up (going on journey the day after) by about 25 ish .
I went into the shop and picked up a bar of chocolate and went to pay,
I said 25 diesel (or what ever it was) .
I handed in a 50 euro note.

I was handed back the change for just the bar but didn't notice the second 20 euro note , I was expecting one note . (they were newish and very close together)
I just put the money in my wallet without checking it too much. I had what I thought I should have
I got no receipt because you have to ask for it and I wasn't self employed so it was of no use to me.

I went out to the van and went about my business

i was paying for something in another shop and noticed i had more than i should he and worked out what had happened.

i went back (not one to see anyone get in trouble) . i went in and just as i walked through the door i asked did he charge me for the diesel. he said he was just about to call the guards and that i would have been done for driving off. he snapped to money from me and put it in the till.
he was very rude and insulting.

if he had started before i handed the money over i would have left with it and called head office

i don't feel i did anything wrong.

what would have happened if i hadn't of noticed his mistake

sweetie · 03-01-2016 03:59AM

I'm sorry, did you really mean two years ago?!

Little CuChulainn · 03-01-2016 10:16AM

He would have called the Gardaí who would have called to the registered owner. It happens all the time and is usually a mistake. On the other hand, if you had walked out without paying because he was rude it probably wouldn't have gone so well.

Fred Swanson · 03-01-2016 10:42AM

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simdan · 03-01-2016 10:43AM

the_pen_turner wrote:

i went back (not one to see anyone get in trouble) . i went in and just as i walked through the door i asked did he charge me for the diesel. he said he was just about to call the guards and that i would have been done for driving off. he snapped to money from me and put it in the till. he was very rude and insulting.

So he got annoyed for his own mistake by not paying attention and doing his job.

What a useless prick

the_pen_turner · 03-01-2016 02:48PM

sweetie wrote: »

I'm sorry, did you really mean two years ago?!

yes it happened about 2 years ago.
it just came back into my head and I thought I would ask here

its more hypothetical at this point ,

3DataModem · 03-01-2016 07:28PM

The CCTV evidence would have backed you up. You'd have been grand.

Fred Swanson · 03-01-2016 07:38PM

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mirrorwall14 · 03-01-2016 07:41PM

Happened me in Mullingar. I paid by card for some groceries and the petrol, clearly stating the amount (or so I thought). End up getting a call from the guards claiming I was a drive off. Seriously pissed off and they were incredibly rude over the phone when I rang to pay by card. Well unimpressed and I have never gone there again.

Kristopherus · 03-01-2016 07:48PM

the_pen_turner wrote: »

yes it happened about 2 years ago.
it just came back into my head and I thought I would ask here

its more hypothetical at this point ,

And posted at 3.30 in the morning. Were you after having a skinful? Forget about it & move on. There are far more important things in life.

Paz-CCFC · 03-01-2016 07:49PM

Making off without payment is an offence contrary to section 8 of Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. However, the accused must have done so "dishonestly" and "with the intention of avoiding payment". Neither was the case for you.

I'd also do my best to make it right, so that a shop assistant wasn't disciplined for an honest mistake. However, if one ever called the guards on me because of his own stupidity, I'd be writing to his employers. They should really be aware about such carelessness of their employees. I'd also be complaining about the defamatory comments he made about accusing you of a crime (if others were present) and the civil assault/battery committed in the process of grabbing something from you (if he wanted to claim that what you did was criminal theft, then I'd have no bother claiming that his actions were assault/battery).

the_pen_turner · 03-01-2016 08:19PM

Kristopherus wrote: »

And posted at 3.30 in the morning. Were you after having a skinful? Forget about it & move on. There are far more important things in life.

my neighbours house was threatened with floods a few nights ago.
I was down there all night keeping her calm and lift furniture etc.
luckily it didn't come in. as a result I slept during the day for a few hours . that night I didn't sleep right from being over tired and then crashing.
this happened for 2 nights.
then last night I was too used to staying up to sleep. I was wide awake. no tiredness at all.

I was browsing old threads on here and something made me think about it and what would have happened if I hadn't of noticed. if not dwelling on it or anything. just curious

Little CuChulainn · 03-01-2016 09:50PM

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Making off without payment is an offence contrary to section 8 of Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. However, the accused must have done so "dishonestly" and "with the intention of avoiding payment". Neither was the case for you.

I'd also do my best to make it right, so that a shop assistant wasn't disciplined for an honest mistake. However, if one ever called the guards on me because of his own stupidity, I'd be writing to his employers. They should really be aware about such carelessness of their employees. I'd also be complaining about the defamatory comments he made about accusing you of a crime (if others were present) and the civil assault/battery committed in the process of grabbing something from you (if he wanted to claim that what you did was criminal theft, then I'd have no bother claiming that his actions were assault/battery).

Drive offs are usually dealt with as simple thefts.

hullaballoo · 03-01-2016 10:49PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Drive offs are usually dealt with as simple thefts.

Theft requires dishonesty as well.

Just on your point though, I don't understand why AGS have this tendency to prosecute under one section when there is a more appropriate offence available.

Making off without payment is ideal in these circumstances as well as people who do runners from taxis and restaurants but it's not something you see prosecuted.

Is there a reason for this or have AGS been stung for failing to make out the proofs for making off one too many times and theft is just the easy option?

Little CuChulainn · 03-01-2016 10:55PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

Theft requires dishonesty as well.

Just on your point though, I don't understand why AGS have this tendency to prosecute under one section when there is a more appropriate offence available.

Making off without payment is ideal in these circumstances as well as people who do runners from taxis and restaurants but it's not something you see prosecuted.

Is there a reason for this or have AGS been stung for failing to make out the proofs for making off one too many times and theft is just the easy option?

Theft of fuel is generally considered a theft because the fuel can be theoretically recovered. Not paying a food bill or taxi fare is different because you can't recover what was taken. That's my understanding. Also, Section 8 is not an arrestable offence so carries no power of detention to aid investigations so it is likely to be used less.

Fred Swanson · 03-01-2016 11:11PM

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MarkAnthony · 03-01-2016 11:15PM

If the shop was busy and the accusation overheard there could be a colourable claim for defamation, hypothetically speaking for the sake of argument.

coylemj · 04-01-2016 01:36AM

If there's a mistake on the part of the filling station as a result of which they report you to the Gardai then I'd simply tell them to PFO and sue me. If you refuse to pay after the event, it's not the same as deliberately driving off without paying, there was no attempt on your part to defraud them when you put the petrol in the car and not paying after the event when you discover that they made a mistake doesn't make it into a crime so if they either reported me to the cops or got rude as happened some of the posters here, I'd refuse to pay and tell them to get lost.

Little CuChulainn · 04-01-2016 01:29PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's very difficult to get a Mars bar back once it's been stolen. It's still theft.

coylemj wrote: »

If there's a mistake on the part of the filling station as a result of which they report you to the Gardai then I'd simply tell them to PFO and sue me. If you refuse to pay after the event, it's not the same as deliberately driving off without paying, there was no attempt on your part to defraud them when you put the petrol in the car and not paying after the event when you discover that they made a mistake doesn't make it into a crime so if they either reported me to the cops or got rude as happened some of the posters here, I'd refuse to pay and tell them to get lost.

Good luck with that.

RossieMan · 04-01-2016 01:33PM

Shot in the face.

Now I'd be usually one to say after hours is the place for pointless threads, but this isn't even worth talking about. It's even more pointless that most of the crap in here.

seamus · 04-01-2016 03:10PM

coylemj wrote: »

If there's a mistake on the part of the filling station as a result of which they report you to the Gardai then I'd simply tell them to PFO and sue me. If you refuse to pay after the event, it's not the same as deliberately driving off without paying, there was no attempt on your part to defraud them when you put the petrol in the car and not paying after the event when you discover that they made a mistake doesn't make it into a crime so if they either reported me to the cops or got rude as happened some of the posters here, I'd refuse to pay and tell them to get lost.

Well once you become aware that a debt is payable and you refuse to pay it, it becomes a pretty open and shut case. Yes, they'd have to sue you for it, but they'd win hands down.
Would it be worth the hassle on principle? No. You'd still be an arsehole for refusing to pay for a commodity you received.

Any road, the situation described in the OP did more-or-less happen to my mother. I can't remember why the fuel wasn't paid for, either she or the attendant or both forgot to mention fuel and she ended up driving home without having paid for it. 2 hours later a Garda knocks on the door and comes in for a friendly cuppa, and the next day she dropped the cash into the garage.

I imagine in all of these cases the garage rings the local station, who look up the reg. If the car is registered locally, especially to some little old lady or otherwise trouble-free person, then they'll just knock in to make sure everything's OK and let the person know.

If it's registered to some known toerag 50km away or listed as stolen they might consider chasing up a prosecution.

Proving that someone intended to drive off without paying and it wasn't just an oversight or bout of forgetfulness would be pretty difficult.

Paz-CCFC · 04-01-2016 03:10PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Theft of fuel is generally considered a theft because the fuel can be theoretically recovered. Not paying a food bill or taxi fare is different because you can't recover what was taken. That's my understanding. Also, Section 8 is not an arrestable offence so carries no power of detention to aid investigations so it is likely to be used less.

The legislation seems to grant the power of arrest, in sections 8(3)and 8(4).

coylemj wrote: »

If there's a mistake on the part of the filling station as a result of which they report you to the Gardai then I'd simply tell them to PFO and sue me. If you refuse to pay after the event, it's not the same as deliberately driving off without paying, there was no attempt on your part to defraud them when you put the petrol in the car and not paying after the event when you discover that they made a mistake doesn't make it into a crime so if they either reported me to the cops or got rude as happened some of the posters here, I'd refuse to pay and tell them to get lost.

Section 4(2)(b) states that it is not theft if you believe that the owner cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps. So, if you found change in a jacket you last wore a couple of months ago, then this might apply. If you found it in your pocket shortly after being in the shop, then it probably doesn't. If you then decide not to return it, in my opinion, you form the mens rea (dishonest appropriation and intention of depriving the owner).

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's very difficult to get a Mars bar back once it's been stolen. It's still theft.

You could argue you that the moment the petrol goes into the tank, it will almost certainly mix with other petrol and then become irretrievable. Just like the moment you eat the food.

Charles Babbage · 04-01-2016 03:17PM

How does the garage prove that you didn't pay? OK if there is video where you drive off without entering the shop, but if you did enter the shop how can it be proved that you didn't pay. For anything criminal you'd need a bit more than one person's word against another.

I don't know why they don't just put a card reader on the pump.

MarkAnthony · 04-01-2016 03:50PM

RossieMan wrote: »

Shot in the face.

Now I'd be usually one to say after hours is the place for pointless threads, but this isn't even worth talking about. It's even more pointless that most of the crap in here.

Sorry you're forced to be here. Oh wait... :rolleyes:

seamus · 04-01-2016 04:18PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

How does the garage prove that you didn't pay? OK if there is video where you drive off without entering the shop, but if you did enter the shop how can it be proved that you didn't pay. For anything criminal you'd need a bit more than one person's word against another.

You'll have CCTV or whatever, and if the Gardai really do think there's something dodgy after happening, they'll ask the person to make a statement and/or interview them, which they can then compare to the CCTV for consistency.

I don't think I've gone into a garage in the last year where I wasn't asked, "Any petrol or diesel?", so that could come into play too - if the teller claims to have asked and received a "no", that's very specific and could probably be seen on CCTV.

the_pen_turner · 04-01-2016 05:47PM

RossieMan wrote: »

Shot in the face.

Now I'd be usually one to say after hours is the place for pointless threads, but this isn't even worth talking about. It's even more pointless that most of the crap in here.

im sorry . care to elaborate on why its pointelss

billgibney · 04-01-2016 06:53PM

In some parts of the UK it's treated as a civil matter

coylemj · 04-01-2016 08:47PM

billgibney wrote: »

In some parts of the UK it's treated as a civil matter

If you deliberately drive away knowing that you haven't paid then it's theft because you are 'dishonestly' appropriating property. If the lack of payment happens because the store made a mistake (e.g. you handed over money intending to pay for fuel and a packet of cigarettes and they didn't take for the fuel), it's a civil matter because the element of dishonesty is not present.

It's similar to the test that would apply if someone walked out of a clothes shop without paying. If they had handed over three items at the counter and were only charged for two of them, they would not be guilty of any crime because of the clerical error made by the shop whereas if they walked out carrying goods having made no attempt to pay they would be guilty of theft.

antoinolachtnai · 04-01-2016 08:59PM

Edwards v Ddin is the famous precedent in this area, no? Essentially driving away without paying was technically not theft (in the strict legal sense) because the person taking the petrol already owned it. I'd imagine this is why a specific law was introduced.

Fred Swanson · 04-01-2016 09:01PM

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Victor · 04-01-2016 09:28PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

How does the garage prove that you didn't pay? OK if there is video where you drive off without entering the shop, but if you did enter the shop how can it be proved that you didn't pay. For anything criminal you'd need a bit more than one person's word against another.

Many tills have cameras. As much to keep an eye of staff as others.

I don't know why they don't just put a card reader on the pump.

These are becoming more common.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Edwards v Ddin is the famous precedent in this area, no? Essentially driving away without paying was technically not theft (in the strict legal sense) because the person taking the petrol already owned it. I'd imagine this is why a specific law was introduced.

I'm not sure that's a good case. the pregnant woman eating bananas in supermarket one is better. I wonder if the judge had ever heard of things like a mechanic's lien.

Micky 32 · 04-01-2016 09:51PM

Reminds me of a couple of years ago. I filled up with 50 euro of fuel and i actually forgot to go in and pay because so many things were going through my mind that day..

Some hours later i realised i had 50 euro more than i should have and then that awful shock feeling went through me that i mustn't have paid. I drove flat out back to the station, the one behind the counter knew and said " they were going over cctv"! I think the only reason cops weren't already called was because the owner knew me lol

coylemj · 04-01-2016 10:16PM

Making off without paying in the general sense was previously dealt with under S.13 of the Debtors Act (Ireland) 1872, this made it a misdemeanour to obtain credit by fraud. In the days before motor cars and self-service fuel pumps, the most common application of this provision was where someone went into a restaurant, ordered and consumed a meal and then declared that they had no money. The legal situation in a restaurant is that the proprietor grants the customer credit by providing him with a meal which he is allowed to consume before payment is demanded. If it's then found that the customer has no money, he is guilty of the offence of obtaining credit by fraud since he was never capable of paying for the goods supplied.

13. Any person shall in each of the cases following be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and on conviction thereof shall be liable to be imprisoned for any time not exceeding one year, with or without hard labour; that is to say,

(1.) If in incurring any debt or liability he has obtained credit under false pretences, or by means of any other fraud :

The offence of 'making off' is now dealt with by S. 8 of the Theft Act 2001 which also repealed the above section of the Debtors Ireland Act....

8.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods obtained or any service done is required or expected, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with the intention of avoiding payment on the spot is guilty of an offence.

seamus · 06-01-2016 11:42AM

^^

Ultimately this also means that if you fill up your car and leave your wallet at home, all you have to do is go into the shop, give them your name and address and tell them you'll be back with the cash later on.

They can't detain your car or have you charged for theft.

hullaballoo · 07-01-2016 12:10PM

It depends on whether you accidentally or intentionally left your wallet at home!

Red Silurian · 11-01-2016 12:38AM

Happened to me once I was called about a petrol drive off, luckily I had paid by card and the statement could be seen from my phone app so they had no comeback at all!

Always pay by card or request a receipt

This should really be moved to after hours at this stage

RFOLEY1990 · 11-01-2016 12:42AM

there's probably a sign about checking your change etc at the til. it works both ways. they're liable for the mistake

the_pen_turner · 11-01-2016 12:47AM

RFOLEY1990 wrote: »

there's probably a sign about checking your change etc at the til. it works both ways. they're liable for the mistake

I have seen some of those signs saying something to the effect of check your change before you leave , we cant correct it later. if that works both ways then by leaving they are saying that the sale is finalised and the change given is a final offering. and as such that they cant ask for more if they were wrong

petrol station failed to charge me

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