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Has something happened to insurance?

  • 09-01-2016 01:47PM
    #1
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭


    So i've had a learners permit since 2011... on which I learned to drive using Aviva's 6 month accompanied driver insurance. And then that was it for a number of years, the first provisional expired and I didn't renew it until around two months ago thinking to get back on the road and go full in early 2016.

    I had checked quotes for a typical starter car (1-1.4L VW Polo from the early 00s) and back in late 2014 I was getting €1.1-1.4k, expensive but not insanely expensive.

    Looking at the exact same car now in 2016 I am getting no less than €3.5-5.5k, which is completely unreasonable. And that's from the very few insurers like Britton who would actually give me a quote.

    22 year old male, i've tried named driver etc and that's where i'm getting the €3.5k quote :(

    Anyone have any ideas what i'm doing wrong?


Comments

  • #2
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    they don't like 15 yr old + cars and they don't like permit holders. Get the test passed and look for a bit newer car


  • #3
    bazz26
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,488 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    This forum really needs an insurance sub forum at this stage imo.

    But here goes again. Other than loading old cars, insurance companies have also wised up to young people trying to get lower premiums by getting added as a named driver when in fact they are the main driver. It's called fronting and they just load whoever is the highest risk on the policy irrespective of whether they are the policy holder not.


  • #4
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    ...Anyone have any ideas what i'm doing wrong?

    You're assuming there is some logic behind it. If the quotes can vary hundreds if not thousands from one call to the next. I can only assume there isn't.

    The first year is always going to cost a fortune. Its a rite of passage to buy a car that costs more than your premium.

    Be aware if you go travelling, and come back after a couple of years, they'll quote you as if its your first year of driving again.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/car-insurance-returning-2052805-Apr2015/

    https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Emmigrants+car+insurance+Ireland

    So the mistake is looking for a pattern. There isn't one. You just have to learn the tricks to reduce it. Like being names on another policy at the same time, or having house insurance at the same time, reduces it.


  • #5
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bazz26 wrote: »
    .... insurance companies have also wised up to young people trying to get lower premiums by getting added as a named driver when in fact they are the main driver...

    They were wise to that decades ago. There's nothing new about that.


  • #6
    MaryAntoinette
    Site Banned Posts: 137 ✭✭MaryAntoinette


    K-y Jellly sales are up.


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  • #7
    Second Toughest in_the Freshers
    Site Banned Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    bazz26 wrote: »
    insurance companies have also wised up to young people trying to get lower premiums by getting added as a named driver when in fact they are the main driver. It's called fronting...

    I was wondering, saw someone accused of fronting on another thread, I thought there was going to be a row


  • #8
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    I'm based in Australia and can't believe the prices people are paying for insurance in Ireland. My wife learned to drive here a few years ago(at 28) in a 4 litre 1998 car and only had to pay the equivalent of around €300(third party) as the only policy holder for the car with practically no driving experience(Insurance is actually optional but she got it just to be on the safe side).
    Also the cost of petrol and taxing a car is outrageous too. We pay the equivalent of €0.75 a litre cents for petrol here and the average car tax for the year is only around €200-€300(even for cars with 4 litre engines). It baffles me that people are on the streets protesting about water charges(please don't turn this into another one of those debates) which are only a couple of hundred euros a year but there are no protests about the cost of running a car for which people are being ripped off by thousands of euros a year in a lot of cases, to the point where a lot of people can't take jobs in certain places or are limited to where they can live because they can't afford the running costs of a car.


  • #9
    Terrontress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    aido79 wrote: »
    I'm based in Australia and can't believe the prices people are paying for insurance in Ireland. My wife learned to drive here a few years ago(at 28) in a 4 litre 1998 car and only had to pay the equivalent of around €300(third party) as the only policy holder for the car with practically no driving experience(Insurance is actually optional but she got it just to be on the safe side).
    Also the cost of petrol and taxing a car is outrageous too. We pay the equivalent of €0.75 a litre cents for petrol here and the average car tax for the year is only around €200-€300(even for cars with 4 litre engines). It baffles me that people are on the streets protesting about water charges(please don't turn this into another one of those debates) which are only a couple of hundred euros a year but there are no protests about the cost of running a car for which people are being ripped off by thousands of euros a year in a lot of cases, to the point where a lot of people can't take jobs in certain places or are limited to where they can live because they can't afford the running costs of a car.

    I suspect the insurers may be badly run, resulting in payouts without proper investigation. Also, courts are very generous when setting compensation. Finally, certain sections of society have a compensation culture, leading to a more litigious society.

    I don't believe that the insurers are drawing a profit of several thousand off a €5k policy, otherwise a rival insurer would undercut them and mop up all the business.


  • #10
    JohnBoy26
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    aido79 wrote: »
    I'm based in Australia and can't believe the prices people are paying for insurance in Ireland. My wife learned to drive here a few years ago(at 28) in a 4 litre 1998 car and only had to pay the equivalent of around €300(third party) as the only policy holder for the car with practically no driving experience(Insurance is actually optional but she got it just to be on the safe side).
    Also the cost of petrol and taxing a car is outrageous too. We pay the equivalent of €0.75 a litre cents for petrol here and the average car tax for the year is only around €200-€300(even for cars with 4 litre engines). It baffles me that people are on the streets protesting about water charges(please don't turn this into another one of those debates) which are only a couple of hundred euros a year but there are no protests about the cost of running a car for which people are being ripped off by thousands of euros a year in a lot of cases, to the point where a lot of people can't take jobs in certain places or are limited to where they can live because they can't afford the running costs of a car.

    Motortax probably started out at being only a couple of hundred a year too though. Indeed on one of my old cars the previous owner left all the old tax disks from day one(mid 90's) in the glove box. The amount it has risen since then and even the early 00's is staggering.


  • #11
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,679 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Motoring is a cash cow for the Govt and the Insurance industry, they may moan about high costs of claims here and that is indeed true but the bigger issue is that the whole lot is a sordid mess.
    If the government was serious about tackling insurance fraud and the associated costs then they could set up a government insurance scheme just like Australia and New Zealand providing third party cover with the optional comprehensive insurance being provided by private companies.
    BUT the big thing here is the legal industry being so powerful and so resistant to change that they will fight tooth and nail to avoid being cut out of the money racket.
    Look at the Troika, they recommended legal reform as part of the Austerity measures that this country has to endure, was the legal industry reformed?
    Was it hell!
    Nothing done, ball stalled and the same old shenanigans going on but worse.

    Politicians don't care they are insulated from day to day stuff like insurance because they have big pay packets and handy expenses.
    Many of them like Shatter and his ilk are serving TD's they aren't going to do their mates out of a handy income by reforming the insurance scam.

    Government needs to:
    1. Setup an Insurance system that covers all drivers funded through fuel levy.

    2. Setup a compensation scheme for injuries where the injuries are assessed through a set scheme (as is most of the continent) and not by arbitrary awards by Judges who may or may not be getting some kind of kickback.

    3. Start prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law any fraudsters that may try and milk the system, including jail and repayment by withholding benefits.

    the UK has already taken steps to stop whiplash claims as of last year.
    Why can this government not do something similar?


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  • #12
    Chiorino
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Chiorino


    Terrontress wrote: »
    I suspect the insurers may be badly run, resulting in payouts without proper investigation. Also, courts are very generous when setting compensation. Finally, certain sections of society have a compensation culture, leading to a more litigious society.

    I don't believe that the insurers are drawing a profit of several thousand off a €5k policy, otherwise a rival insurer would undercut them and mop up all the business.

    Firstly, if a case gets to court, investigation or not, the costs for insurers are going to be thousands in legal fees before any payout is or isn't awarded. For smaller sums it just isn't worth an insurer challenging in court so they will stump up.

    However insurers are putting more money into investigating claims ( I can think of three cases in the last few months, one of which ended up with a claimant being jailed for fraud).

    At the moment, until the culture around claims changes (unlikely) and the way awards are made, costs aren't going any way except up for the foreseeable.


  • #13
    Lellostag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Lellostag


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Anyone have any ideas what i'm doing wrong?

    Still living in Ireland is probably your biggest mistake in this situation! ;)

    As is mine... Should seriously start considering moving to some country where sanity still prevails...


  • #14
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    BUT the big thing here is the legal industry being so powerful and so resistant to change that they will fight tooth and nail to avoid being cut out of the money racket.
    Look at the Troika, they recommended legal reform as part of the Austerity measures that this country has to endure, was the legal industry reformed?
    Was it hell!
    Nothing done, ball stalled and the same old shenanigans going on but worse.
    IMHO the legal profession in this country is one of the more crooked sectors of Irish society. Maybe crooked is the wrong term, slanted maybe. By the nature of their trade they're more careful than most. I'm not talking of the small office solicitor doing conveyancing and wills and the like(though "clients money resting in my account" stuff is remarkably common there), but above that level most certainly have their fingers in the greasy till as much as possible, nepotism is rife, as is nudge nudge back room stuff. The barrister class beggars belief when seen up close. I say this having some relatives in the game and they're beautifully polished parasites. But as you point out little will be done, they're a protected species.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #15
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    Business Cat wrote: »
    I started studying recently to gain a management diploma in insurance. The module for my first exam relates to motor (commercial and private) and the section I'm on now relates to claims. There is some interesting reading I thought i would share some of it to give an insight into the state of the insurance market at the moment.

    The stats below relate to 2013. As the number of cars on the roads has increased since then one can reasonably assume that the written premium and claims have increased too.

    43% of all non life insurance business written was for motor insurance.

    53% of newly notified claims were motor claims.

    That 53% equals 235,322 individual motor related claims were notified.

    Total written premium was €1,113,000,000.

    Net underwriting result was -€253,600,000.

    Investment income was €62,000,000.

    Overall net operating loss on motor insurance was €192,000,000.

    Property insurance performed well with an overall net operating profit of €71,000,000.

    Public liability had an overall net operating loss of €1,200,000.

    The total figures were gross written premium of approx €2,600,000,000 with a net operating loss of approx €81,000,000. That's across all classes of non life insurance.

    Commercial motor performed much better than private but it still had an overall loss of approx €1,000,000.

    75% of motor policies written were for private motor so it stands to reason it would perform worse than the commercial motor side.


    Finally, here are some over all results for the 5 years to 2013. GWP means gross written premium, NUR means net underwriting result, II means investment income, OR means operating result and PP% means profit premium percentage.

    2009 : GWP €3,752m, NUR -€124m, II €317m, OR €193m, PP% 5.14%

    2010 : GWP €3,702m, NUR -€103m, II €169m, OR €66m, PP% 1.78%

    2011 : GWP €3,554m, NUR €213m, II €404m, OR €191m, PP% 11.37%

    2012 : GWP €3,331m, NUR -€87m, II €278m, OR €191m, PP% 5.73%

    2013 : GWP €2,574M, NUR -€211m, II €130m, OR -€81m, PP% -3.15%


    So you can see from the above, with the exception of 2011, insurers have been making an underwriting loss, that is they are paying out more in claims than they are taking in from premiums. The largest percentage of this loss is coming from motor insurance.

    In years past they were buoyed by investment incomes however that's begun to peeter out.

    I'd be interested to see the most up to date statistics on it to see where its at.

    Anyway, some food for thought and I hope it gives people some insight into just how distressed the motor insurance sector is at the moment.

    The source was from Insurance Ireland and the Insurance Institute.


    I posted this yesterday in the renewals thread, some good reading about the current state of the industry and why costs are rising.

    Don't ask me why some insurers are declining to quote older cars though as I don't feckin know!


  • #16
    Lellostag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Lellostag


    Business Cat wrote: »
    Don't ask me why some insurers are declining to quote older cars though as I don't feckin know!

    I suppose they probably just don't want the hassle of having to take the money off our hands!! ;)


  • #17
    TOMP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭TOMP


    Wibbs wrote: »
    IMHO the legal profession in this country is one of the more crooked sectors of Irish society. Maybe crooked is the wrong term, slanted maybe. By the nature of their trade they're more careful than most. I'm not talking of the small office solicitor doing conveyancing and wills and the like(though "clients money resting in my account" stuff is remarkably common there), but above that level most certainly have their fingers in the greasy till as much as possible, nepotism is rife, as is nudge nudge back room stuff. The barrister class beggars belief when seen up close. I say this having some relatives in the game and they're beautifully polished parasites. But as you point out little will be done, they're a protected species.

    Take a look at the amount of solicitors who have been charged with or convicted of all kinds of offences in Ireland in the last 15 years. Its an eye opening statistic.


  • #18
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Terrontress wrote: »
    I suspect the insurers may be badly run, resulting in payouts without proper investigation. Also, courts are very generous when setting compensation. Finally, certain sections of society have a compensation culture, leading to a more litigious society.

    I don't believe that the insurers are drawing a profit of several thousand off a €5k policy, otherwise a rival insurer would undercut them and mop up all the business.

    I think insurers for some time have been taking a short term view (fast buck) of not going to court to save costs, but that has had the effect of increasing the cost of claims.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98359122&postcount=16


    The lack of enforcement doesn't help either. The standard of driving seems very low.


  • #19
    bazz26
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,488 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    beauf wrote: »
    They were wise to that decades ago. There's nothing new about that.

    They were not loading the named driver decades ago though. It would have been cheaper to get mammy or daddy to take out a second policy on a car little johnny bought and put him down as a named driver a number of years back. It wasn't really noticeable when little johnnie was driving a Micra or Golf but then little johnny decided he wanted a performance car.


  • #20
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Oh they were. I remember in the 80's getting a quotes for free, 700, 2000 pounds all in the same week to be put on as a named driver of a parents (painfully slow) car. Everyone did it, as it was still cheaper than insuring on you're own. Some gave a discount for having a year or two named driver experience when you got your own policy. They used to do things like charge more for a NA 2L diesel than a 1.6 hot hatch because it was done on engine size.


  • #21
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The insurance companies have done very little to try and bring costs down. They could give discounts for dash cams, blackboxs for speed tracking. Low mileage, discounts for annual tax saver tickets, cars with speed limits. In an era where we almost have self driving cars. The insurance companies have bought almost no innovation to the market. No forward planning at all.


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