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Scientifically tested eucharistic miracles

  • 24-04-2016 09:11PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭


    Sorry to do the long quote, it appeared on my news feed and I found it interesting. I had know that blood tested from different eucharistic miracles was the same, what I didn't know was that the DNA centuries apart was also the same. The same DNA of the Lanciano miracles to the Buenas Aires Miracle.

    After scientific investigation, a eucharistic miracle in Poland was recently confirmed as authentic by the local bishop of the area. Initially, the Host had fallen on the ground, so it was placed in water, as is customarily done in such cases. Not long afterward, the Eucharist began turning red, as if bloody.

    Tests subsequently done on the subject indicated it came from human tissue "most similar to the heart muscle ... as it appears under the strains of agony."

    The case is similar to one that occurred in Buenos Aires, Argentina years ago. In 1996, when then-Bishop Jorge Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) was an auxiliary bishop there under Cdl. Antonio Quarracino. A consecrated Host was found on the ground and soon placed in a glass of water to dissolve. Days later, the Eucharist wasn't dissolved at all — it had turned into bloody Flesh.

    Cardinal Quarracino and Bp. Bergoglio took a photograph of the bloody Host for the record, then stored it in a tabernacle to decompose. In 1999, three years later, that same bloody Flesh remained. That's when Dr. Ricardo Castañón, a Bolivian neurophysiologist, was called in to have samples from the Host examined in a laboratory environment.

    Doctor Castañón took it to the San Francisco Forensic Institute without telling anyone there what it was or where it came from. After testing, he was told the samples constituted heart muscle, specifically from the myocardium of the left ventricle. Further, the tests showed the blood was human, with human DNA, and of the rare AB-positive type — the same as found on the Shroud of Turin.

    Following those results, the Host was taken to Dr. Frederick Zugibe, an esteemed cardiologist and forensic pathologist at Columbia University in New York. According to Dr. Castañón, Dr. Zugibe tested the samples he was given and said the person whose heart it came from must have been tortured. Further, Dr. Zugibe was reportedly amazed that when he studied the samples, they were pulsating like a living, beating heart.

    When Dr. Castañón first came across the miracle in 1999, he was an atheist. Today, he's a Catholic.

    After that, the results of the tests were compared to samples from another eucharistic miracle that took place in Lanciano, Italy roughly 1,300 years ago. The Body and Blood from that miracle are still preserved at a church in the town. In 1970, they were examined scientifically and, like the Buenos Aires sample, found to be from a human heart with AB-positive blood.

    Image
    The miracle of Lanciano on display
    The comparison indicated that the samples from both Buenos Aires and Lanciano must have come from the same man. They both had the exact same DNA.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Good evening all!

    I think Catholics overblow the significance of the Lord's Supper. The primary focus of which is to draw us to remember the sacrificial death of Jesus.
    For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

    This is what the Bible centres on. My views on the Lord's Supper have grown as the years go on. I think it's essence is in it's simplicity. We are remembering the previous death of our Saviour. I would hold to a memorial view of The Lord's Supper instead of transubstantiation or consubstantiation. It's clear that the Bible doesn't deal much with the substance at communion, therefore I think it's fair to say that Christ and the Apostles weren't massively concerned with it.

    We had The Lord's Supper this evening at church. I love the Anglican liturgy as it brings great attention to the grace alone salvation the Gospel brings. This is called the prayer of humble access:
    We do not presume
    to come to this your table, merciful Lord,
    trusting in our own righteousness,
    but in your manifold and great mercies.
    We are not worthy
    so much as to gather up the crumbs under your table.
    But you are the same Lord
    whose nature is always to have mercy.

    Grant us, therefore, gracious Lord,
    so to eat the flesh of your dear Son Jesus Christ
    and to drink his blood,
    that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body
    and our souls washed through his most precious blood,
    and that we may evermore dwell in him and he in us.
    Amen.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Very interesting read OP. Further investigation is needed on article. But it's one of those things that stop and make you think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    Can you provide a link to the actual study? The study itself if possible, with the analytical methods in it, not a synopsis. Please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    alma73 wrote: »
    Sorry to do the long quote, it appeared on my news feed and I found it interesting. I had know that blood tested from different eucharistic miracles was the same, what I didn't know was that the DNA centuries apart was also the same. The same DNA of the Lanciano miracles to the Buenas Aires Miracle.

    After scientific investigation, a eucharistic miracle in Poland was recently confirmed as authentic by the local bishop of the area. Initially, the Host had fallen on the ground, so it was placed in water, as is customarily done in such cases. Not long afterward, the Eucharist began turning red, as if bloody.

    Tests subsequently done on the subject indicated it came from human tissue "most similar to the heart muscle ... as it appears under the strains of agony."

    The case is similar to one that occurred in Buenos Aires, Argentina years ago. In 1996, when then-Bishop Jorge Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) was an auxiliary bishop there under Cdl. Antonio Quarracino. A consecrated Host was found on the ground and soon placed in a glass of water to dissolve. Days later, the Eucharist wasn't dissolved at all — it had turned into bloody Flesh.

    Cardinal Quarracino and Bp. Bergoglio took a photograph of the bloody Host for the record, then stored it in a tabernacle to decompose. In 1999, three years later, that same bloody Flesh remained. That's when Dr. Ricardo Castañón, a Bolivian neurophysiologist, was called in to have samples from the Host examined in a laboratory environment.

    Doctor Castañón took it to the San Francisco Forensic Institute without telling anyone there what it was or where it came from. After testing, he was told the samples constituted heart muscle, specifically from the myocardium of the left ventricle. Further, the tests showed the blood was human, with human DNA, and of the rare AB-positive type — the same as found on the Shroud of Turin.

    Following those results, the Host was taken to Dr. Frederick Zugibe, an esteemed cardiologist and forensic pathologist at Columbia University in New York. According to Dr. Castañón, Dr. Zugibe tested the samples he was given and said the person whose heart it came from must have been tortured. Further, Dr. Zugibe was reportedly amazed that when he studied the samples, they were pulsating like a living, beating heart.

    When Dr. Castañón first came across the miracle in 1999, he was an atheist. Today, he's a Catholic.

    After that, the results of the tests were compared to samples from another eucharistic miracle that took place in Lanciano, Italy roughly 1,300 years ago. The Body and Blood from that miracle are still preserved at a church in the town. In 1970, they were examined scientifically and, like the Buenos Aires sample, found to be from a human heart with AB-positive blood.

    Image
    The miracle of Lanciano on display
    The comparison indicated that the samples from both Buenos Aires and Lanciano must have come from the same man. They both had the exact same DNA.

    alma73 wrote: »
    ..............After scientific investigation,

    Stop being a facebook dingbat or Rev. Monsignor M. Francis Mannion might kick yer ass :
    ................


    A crucial element of these events was the fact that the host in question was left unprotected and unattended in a dish of water from approximately Nov. 8 – 14, 2015.
    In an expeditious but careful manner the committee enlisted the services of a competent and credible scientist to conduct controlled testing of the host. Great care was taken to ensure the reverent handling of the consecrated host throughout the scientific examination. Upon completion of the prescribed tests, the scientist, with the assistance of a blind observer, concluded that the observed change in the host could be satisfactorily and conclusively explained by natural causes, namely the growth of what is commonly known as “red bread mold,” or red bacteria, most likely Neurospora cressa or Serratia marcescens.
    ..............

    Rev. Monsignor M. Francis Mannion,
    Chairman
    Ad Hoc Investigation Committee

    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    The host in question on this Thread is the Buenas Aires Miracle.

    Yes.. red mould can appear on bread, but it became clear the red colour was not mould it was tested.

    Same blood type and DNA as lanciano.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC7RPJC4uDA


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    Here is another link regarding the scientific conclusions of Dr. Castanon .

    http://www.thedivinemercy.org/news/A-Matter-of-Faith-a-Matter-of-Fact-5114


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    alma73 wrote: »
    The host in question on this Thread is the Buenas Aires Miracle. ................

    It ain't a Miracle unless the Vatican says it is


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    gctest50 wrote: »
    It ain't a Miracle unless the Vatican says it is

    Bread turns to heart muscle tissue in Buenas Aires and its DNA is the same as bread that turn to flesh 1400 years ago in Italy.

    Also it was Cardinal Bergoglio who approved the miracle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭EirWatcher


    gctest50 wrote: »
    It ain't a Miracle unless the Vatican says it is

    And even then, it is considered private revelation by the Church, and hence places Catholics under no obligation to believe it.
    Private revelations are regarded only as aids to devotion made available by God to the faithful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    EirWatcher wrote: »
    And even then, it is considered private revelation by the Church, and hence places Catholics under no obligation to believe it.
    Private revelations are regarded only as aids to devotion made available by God to the faithful.

    Correct. Its not part of the faith. Catholics don't have to believe it. However the Church as not said that it was a hoax. its the same with all apparitions over the ages.

    Its just interesting that the DNA from the 2 locations was the exact same.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭EirWatcher


    alma73 wrote: »
    Correct. Its not part of the faith. Catholics don't have to believe it. However the Church as not said that it was a hoax. its the same with all apparitions over the ages.

    Its just interesting that the DNA from the 2 locations was the exact same.

    I agree. As a Catholic, I find miracles like this as possible reinforcement of the doctrine of transubstantiation. What's interesting, and different (in this age), is that we have it in such scientific terms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    alma73 wrote: »
    ....................

    Its just interesting that the DNA from the 2 locations was the exact same.

    bit like HeLa cells

    they have turbo-telomerase enzyme :) , rebuilds the telomerases, so they continue to multiply ferociously


    One of the most popular bladder cancer cell lines has been KU7, which was isolated from a patient with low-grade papillary bladder cancer at the Keio University (KU) in 1980. KU7 has been widely used due to its robust growth in vitro, its amenability to molecular manipulation, and its reliable growth characteristics in xenograft models.

    Interestingly, KU7 has behaved over many years as a highly invasive and rapidly growing cell line, which is quite disparate to its original description as being derived from a low grade papillary tumor. This discrepancy, however, was not recognized until we had already determined the true identity of KU7. This highlights the importance of bearing the disease context of cell lines in mind when using them for pre-clinical modeling. The widespread contamination of KU7 clones determined here makes us believe that all KU7 in the urologic literature since at least 1984 is likely HeLa.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    Also the blood type of Lanciano, Buenas Aires and the Shroud of Turin happen to be the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    alma73 wrote: »
    Also the blood type of Lanciano, Buenas Aires and the Shroud of Turin happen to be the same.

    which type ?

    O-positive: 38 percent
    O-negative: 7 percent
    A-positive: 34 percent
    A-negative: 6 percent
    B-positive: 9 percent
    B-negative: 2 percent
    AB-positive: 3 percent
    AB-negative: 1 percent

    usa


    buRTZgG.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Good evening!

    Forgive me for being confused, but how are these events meant to immediately draw someone to the conclusion that transubstantiation is the only way to understand the Lord's Supper?

    Even if these bizarre events occurred (and I doubt at present) surely this can't tell us about the state of communion every time? Surely we're not saying that every time the host physically becomes human flesh?

    I appreciate that this question might be slightly clumsy, if it is forgive me. I still think the simple truth that The Lord's Supper leads us to remember Jesus' passion and death is more powerful than having to go looking for all these miracles.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭EirWatcher


    gctest50 wrote: »
    O-positive: 38 percent
    O-negative: 7 percent
    A-positive: 34 percent
    A-negative: 6 percent
    B-positive: 9 percent
    B-negative: 2 percent
    AB-positive: 3 percent
    AB-negative: 1 percent

    It would best to read it in full before scrambling to debunk it - it said AB-positive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭EirWatcher


    Surely we're not saying that every time the host physically becomes human flesh?

    You are conflating transubstantiation with transmutation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    EirWatcher wrote: »
    It would best to read it in full before scrambling to debunk it - it said AB-positive.

    The original post is from a news feed somewhere :
    alma73 wrote: »
    Sorry to do the long quote, it appeared on my news feed and I found it interesting..................

    just looking for where that was


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    EirWatcher wrote: »
    Surely we're not saying that every time the host physically becomes human flesh?

    You are conflating transubstantiation with transmutation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory
    Good evening!

    Please flesh it out for me then! (No pun intended!)

    I'm still thinking that the memorial view makes a lot more sense.

    Edit: To your question - I do wonder how much we should be inviting Plato and Aristotle into our theology.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    Good evening!

    Please flesh it out for me then! (No pun intended!)

    I'm still thinking that the memorial view makes a lot more sense.

    Edit: To your question - I do wonder how much we should be inviting Plato and Aristotle into our theology.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria

    @solodeogloria --> Solo Scriptura.
    "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you, Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them......

    ... On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"



    Take this, and eat it. This is my body


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭EirWatcher


    alma73 wrote: »
    On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

    And further...
    "After this, many of his disciples left him and stopped going with him." Jn. 6

    As it was in beginning, is now ... and ever shall be...

    Good night.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    EirWatcher wrote: »
    And further...
    "After this, many of his disciples left him and stopped going with him." Jn. 6

    As it was in beginning, is now ... and ever shall be...

    Good night.

    Good morning!

    John 6 doesn't refer to communion or the the Lord's Supper at all. The context is depending on Jesus' death. He even says that the words he has spoken are spirit and life in 6:63. The flesh counts for nothing.

    This is why careful Bible reading and handling are key.

    My questions about what transubstantiation actually is haven't been answered.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭EirWatcher


    John 6 doesn't refer to communion or the the Lord's Supper at all. The context is depending on Jesus' death. He even says that the words he has spoken are spirit and life in 6:63. The flesh counts for nothing.

    This is why careful Bible reading and handling are key.

    My questions about what transubstantiation actually is haven't been answered.

    I would direct you Summa Theologica III: Q75 for answers to what you just stated, but I suspect you would wonder how much you should be inviting Thomas Aquinas in your theology, if contradicting Luther et. al.

    The text is available online, if truly curious; search and you shall find.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    John 6:63: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

    Transubstantiation is a myth and should be rejected. If true it "re-sacrifices" Christ and this is directly contradictory of scripture. Christ died once and for all and there is no need for this ritual to be performed. We take the bread and wine to remind us of this. Thats all they are. There is nothing mythical taking place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    EirWatcher wrote: »
    I would direct you Summa Theologica III: Q75 for answers to what you just stated, but I suspect you would wonder how much you should be inviting Thomas Aquinas in your theology, if contradicting Luther et. al.

    The text is available online, if truly curious; search and you shall find.

    Good evening!

    I've read quite a bit of the Summa Theologica actually. Thomas clearly was quite a thinker but including Aristotle's non-Christian philosophy caused the Catholic Church quite a number of issues over the years. It also formed the basis for why Galileo and Copernicus were condemned for heliocentricism. Aristotle and Plato weren't Christians, we shouldn't mix their philosophy with the Gospel.

    I'm quite concerned that nobody seems to want to give me their own explanation. We should be confident enough to explain our convictions to others.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    Good morning!

    John 6 doesn't refer to communion or the the Lord's Supper at all. The context is depending on Jesus' death. He even says that the words he has spoken are spirit and life in 6:63. The flesh counts for nothing.

    This is why careful Bible reading and handling are key.

    My questions about what transubstantiation actually is haven't been answered.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria

    Lets park your views on transubstantiation/Aristotelian-Aquinas for a moment. The real presence Body&Blood soul&divinity of Christ in the Eucharist has been affirmed by all the Church for 1500 years before Luther took exception. Copts, Orthodox, Armenians, eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Melikites, Assyrians...

    And its pretty clear in the Gospel.

    τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου.

    Not the appearance, not a symbol. IS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Good evening!

    I think keanoafc and I are asking you to read the whole chapter in context rather than isolating the verse. The verse doesn't mention communion.

    Jesus says his words are spirit and life in 6:63.

    Can you please explain what transubstantiation actually is as that would help greatly. Is it not that the bread literally becomes Christ's flesh?

    The memorial position for The Lord's Supper was held by many. However it was primarily argued for by the Swiss Reformer Ulrich Zwingli.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73


    Good evening!

    I think keanoafc and I are asking you to read the whole chapter in context rather than isolating the verse. The verse doesn't mention communion.

    Jesus says his words are spirit and life in 6:63.

    Can you please explain what transubstantiation actually is as that would help greatly. Is it not that the bread literally becomes Christ's flesh?

    The memorial position for The Lord's Supper was held by many. However it was primarily argued for by the Swiss Reformer Ulrich Zwingli.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria

    I have read the whole gospel many times. I prefer the Eastern Churchs view of the transformation as a mystery of Christs love. This is my body, I am the bread of life. Doing in his memory. Taking Christ by his literal word as he said in the last supper.

    The Eurcharist is fundamental to most Christians of true faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alma73




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    alma73 wrote: »
    ... I had know that blood tested from different eucharistic miracles was the same, what I didn't know was that the DNA centuries apart was also the same. The same DNA of the Lanciano miracles to the Buenas Aires Miracle.

    I'd never heard of the Argentinian case but I read (kinda) recently of similar results between the Lanciano host and another case - which I can't recall now. I must fish out the book and the case, but it is quite similar in results as what you've posted.


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