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Did anybody profit from the 2008 crisis in Ireland?

135

Comments

  • #62
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    micosoft wrote: »
    You can rent and not be in debt. You have a really odd definition of freedom not understood by any political philosophy I know of.

    No you can´t, if you rent it is a form of debt. You are in debt to the landlord for using his property. If you rent you pay rent, if you own you don´t. if you don't have to pay rent you have more freedom as you don´t have a huge monthly expense on your shoulder. I´m not sure about political philosophy but I am a fan of common sense. Not sure why my point does not make sense to you.


  • #63
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So if you have a mortgage, you're not free?

    A mortgage is something someone has to pay for a large portion of their lives. It is a debt. Debt is slavery because it forces upon you an obligation to pay. You have to work to pay. So you tell me who is more free, the person who has to pay a mortgage for half his life or the person who can choose not to?


  • #64
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    K-9 wrote: »
    It has to be affordable then. The Central Bank limits make sense in that respect, they were 10 years too late. No point owning a home if it means a lifetime of debt, in many cases unaffordable even at that.

    what limits are these?


  • #65
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,846 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    armabelle wrote: »
    A mortgage is something someone has to pay for a large portion of their lives. It is a debt. Debt is slavery because it forces upon you an obligation to pay. You have to work to pay. So you tell me who is more free, the person who has to pay a mortgage for half his life or the person who can choose not to?

    I'm confused. You seem to be telling us that you're not free if you're renting, and you're not free if you have a mortgage. So in order to be free, you need to own your home without borrowing to do so.

    Care to explain how?


  • #66
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm confused. You seem to be telling us that you're not free if you're renting, and you're not free if you have a mortgage. So in order to be free, you need to own your home without borrowing to do so.

    Care to explain how?

    The word free has different meanings to different people. I don't know what you consider free but for me freedom is having time as life is short and being able to spend it how and where you wish is true freedom. So are you "free" right now? You are free in the sense that you can walk in the street and go where you wish in your own time or choose what to eat for dinner but in the big picture, if you are like the overwhelming majority, you have to pay rent or pay a mortgage. Either way, until you own a home you have an enormous burden on your shoulders because you have to work more to sustain your lifestyle. Why is that so confusing? If you own a home that burden is lifted is it not?


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  • #67
    micosoft
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭micosoft


    armabelle wrote: »
    No you can´t, if you rent it is a form of debt. You are in debt to the landlord for using his property. If you rent you pay rent, if you own you don´t. if you don't have to pay rent you have more freedom as you don´t have a huge monthly expense on your shoulder. I´m not sure about political philosophy but I am a fan of common sense. Not sure why my point does not make sense to you.

    Okey dokey. Your point does not make sense because you are changing the meaning of some pretty basic concepts and indeed words. About as far away from "common" sense as you can get because you are changing the meaning of things from what they are "commonly" understood to be e.g. Rent is a regular payment for the use of land or property to "Rent is a form of debt" (debt commonly known as a sum of money owed or due).

    TBH it's meaningless to have a discussion with somebody who changes the meaning of words. Through the looking glass.


  • #68
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    micosoft wrote: »
    Okey dokey. Your point does not make sense because you are changing the meaning of some pretty basic concepts and indeed words. About as far away from "common" sense as you can get because you are changing the meaning of things from what they are "commonly" understood to be e.g. Rent is a regular payment for the use of land or property to "Rent is a form of debt" (debt commonly known as a sum of money owed or due).

    TBH it's meaningless to have a discussion with somebody who changes the meaning of words. Through the looking glass.

    You don't need my permission to excuse yourself from the thread in that case.


  • #69
    mahoganygas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭mahoganygas


    armabelle wrote: »
    No you can´t, if you rent it is a form of debt. You are in debt to the landlord for using his property. If you rent you pay rent, if you own you don´t. if you don't have to pay rent you have more freedom as you don´t have a huge monthly expense on your shoulder. I´m not sure about political philosophy but I am a fan of common sense. Not sure why my point does not make sense to you.

    Rent is an expense. Debt is a liability.
    Unless your rent is overdue it is never a liability.

    You can walk away from a rental agreement at any time.
    You can't walk away from a mortgage.


  • #70
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mod:

    Ok, back on topic please!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #71
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    mahoganygas wrote: »
    Rent is an expense. Debt is a liability.
    Unless your rent is overdue it is never a liability.

    You can walk away from a rental agreement at any time.
    You can't walk away from a mortgage.

    You can walk away from a mortgage if you really want but with consequences.

    Also, you can walk away from a rental agreement but then there re consequences too like

    a. enter into a new one or
    b. go live in the street

    The whole reason the thread took this turn is because some people keep saying that Irish people are obsessed with home ownership and that this played part of the role in the crisis but I don't understand why it is seen this way. I see home ownerships as synonymous with freedom.


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  • #72
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    armabelle wrote: »
    I see home ownerships as synonymous with freedom.

    I'm not sure about freedom. I think it's about security.

    I used to be rabidly pro-capitalist but now I'm rabidly pro-capitalist with one notable exception, the government should enact policies that encourage and support homeownership.

    I think part of that is being careful about who gets mortgages and who doesn't which is why I also agree with the poster above that deposit requirements are essential to a stable housing market.

    I do worry though that the government is deliberately trying to change Ireland into a predominantly rental economy. I've spoken to some nihilists from Fine Gael and this is what they seem to favour. I think it's social and cultural suicide tbh.


  • #73
    daveharnett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    armabelle wrote: »
    No you can´t, if you rent it is a form of debt. You are in debt to the landlord for using his property.
    Am I in "debt" to the supermarket for using their food?


  • #74
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,933 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    armabelle wrote: »
    Debt is slavery because it forces upon you an obligation to pay. You have to work to pay. So you tell me who is more free, the person who has to pay a mortgage for half his life or the person who can choose not to?

    The ability to pay for things over time actually gives people more options

    Few people can afford to pay for a house up front. Likewise few people can afford not to work


  • #75
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mod:

    Sorry, can we keep to the topic as I said a couple of posts ago, thanks.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #76
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    The ability to pay for things over time actually gives people more options

    Few people can afford to pay for a house up front. Likewise few people can afford not to work

    Hope this is not off topic still but it seems that it is this mentality that caused the crisis and allowed lending institutions to become even more greedy because they know how people think. I see things differently. If you owe for 30 years on a house, you work for 10 years solely to pay the bank for loaning you that money (am guessing here it may vary). I think if people lived below their means perhaps the crisis wouldn't have happened?


  • #77
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    armabelle wrote:
    Hope this is not off topic still but it seems that it is this mentality that caused the crisis and allowed lending institutions to become even more greedy because they know how people think. I see things differently. If you owe for 30 years on a house, you work for 10 years solely to pay the bank for loaning you that money (am guessing here it may vary). I think if people lived below their means perhaps the crisis wouldn't have happened?


    This is a very complicated problem. The financial sector is over inflating asset prices, driving up the price of property. There's simply too much debt out there. I feel the problem doesn't lie with the people, but the fundamentally flawed economic theories and principles we 're following. Some believe the crisis was inevitable even largely orchestrated, I'd have to largely agree.


  • #78
    mahoganygas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭mahoganygas


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Some believe the crisis was inevitable even largely orchestrated, I'd have to largely agree.

    Pull the other one.


  • #79
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    mahoganygas wrote:
    Pull the other one.


    Plenty of well researched people talking about this now


  • #80
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    This is a very complicated problem. The financial sector is over inflating asset prices, driving up the price of property. There's simply too much debt out there. I feel the problem doesn't lie with the people, but the fundamentally flawed economic theories and principles we 're following. Some believe the crisis was inevitable even largely orchestrated, I'd have to largely agree.

    This is why I posted this too. I also can't help feeling that way. How can the financial sector do this though?


  • #81
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Some believe the crisis was inevitable...
    Anyone with an ounce of sense knew some sort of "correction" was inevitable.
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...even largely orchestrated...
    Now you're venturing into conspiracy theory territory.


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  • #82
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    armabelle wrote:
    This is why I posted this too. I also can't help feeling that way. How can the financial sector do this though?


    Some believe that psychopaths are operating at the very high levels of our financial sector. Even though this may be a very extreme view, I do believe socialpathic behaviour is common in the sector. My cousin worked in the sector for a very short while. He ran from it. Filled with people obsessed with making money and void of emotions. This is a very serious problem as its having a very serious negative effect on the majority of people on the planet and planet itself


  • #83
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    djpbarry wrote:
    Now you're venturing into conspiracy theory territory.


    Sadly it's hard not to cross into conspiracy land here as the whole financial system is shrouded in mystery but I'm trying to stick with well respected researchers for information


  • #84
    armabelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭armabelle


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Anyone with an ounce of sense knew some sort of "correction" was inevitable.
    Now you're venturing into conspiracy theory territory.

    I think it is as much of a conspiracy theory as the mainstream theories people give for the crisis but then again I probably don't have the knowledge required to say for sure. Does anybody or are all of our theories "conspiracy" ones?


  • #85
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Plenty of well researched people talking about this now

    You will probably quote the usual 3 names you think we should all read their opinions about it.

    It's all a load of nonsense. Illuminati stuff.


  • #86
    mahoganygas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭mahoganygas


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Sadly it's hard not to cross into conspiracy land here as the whole financial system is shrouded in mystery but I'm trying to stick with well respected researchers for information

    armabelle wrote: »
    I think it is as much of a conspiracy theory as the mainstream theories people give for the crisis but then again I probably don't have the knowledge required to say for sure. Does anybody or are all of our theories "conspiracy" ones?

    I'll bite.

    Any specifics?


  • #87
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    armabelle wrote: »
    I think it is as much of a conspiracy theory as the mainstream theories people give for the crisis but then again I probably don't have the knowledge required to say for sure. Does anybody or are all of our theories "conspiracy" ones?

    There is no conspiracy.

    Simple life lesson I'll give you for free.

    Don't take money off someone you can't be sure you can pay back.

    You stick to that you won't go wrong and start thinking there is someone conspiring against you.


  • #88
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    JustTheOne wrote:
    You will probably quote the usual 3 names you think we should all read their opinions about it.


    Only ones I've researched in detail so far. Feel free to recommend others. I'm afraid we 'll have to agree to disagree and move on with our lives or we 'll be going around in circles. It 'll be fun when the ttip is introduced!


  • #89
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    JustTheOne wrote:
    Don't take money off someone you can't be sure you can pay back.


    Easier said than done. We 're getting to the point, in order to get access to basic essentials in life, we must take on debts. This is a problem and Unsustainable


  • #90
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Easier said than done. We 're getting to the point, in order to get access to basic essentials in life, we must take on debts. This is a problem and Unsustainable

    No its not. It's people acting irresponsibly.


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  • #91
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,910 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    mahoganygas wrote:
    Any specifics?


    As justtheone has said, I'm a broken record at this stage. My recommendations, Michael Hudson, Bill black, ha-joon Chang and Ellen Brown


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