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At what point does right wing just mean racist/d1ck/heartless baxtard?

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Comments

  • #392
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Jayop wrote: »
    Because they are entitled to? They are entitled to have children full stop and in Ireland, legally they are entitled to have them and claim benefits afterwards.

    It's not that complicated.
    So that's it. Just have a kid because 'hey, you're entitled to one'.

    Yeah, no...


    Jayop wrote: »
    So a car and a child are the same thing?

    Amazing.

    Oh no. A child demands far more intense levels of responsibility and security.


    One more thing. In the case of Erica Fleming, I'm sure if the father was either dead, missing, or walked out/abandoned her/fighting not to pay anything, then it would of course have been included. Why wouldn't it?
    As it stands in this article http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/homeless-irish-mums-story-living-8098725

    I see no mention of the father, anywhere.
    Which makes me suspect, like far too many cases, the father is unknown or unproven.


  • #393
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #394
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Jayop wrote: »
    Careful now, being realistic about the time that woman are able to have children will have you accused of being a misogynistic pig, even if you are a woman.

    Why? It's pretty much common sense that as women age beyond their late 20s, the risks of defects or complications begin to increase :confused:


  • #395
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Sand wrote: »
    Because 'their clock is ticking' and women need children so they 'don't die alone'. Its just sexism masquerading as concern.

    Well in a country that basically outlaws abortion...

    Unplanned pregnancies happen so our society and laws say we should support mothers in cases like that. Obviously not for life though!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #396
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Renegade Mechanic wrote: »
    Why? It's pretty much common sense that as women age beyond their late 20s, the risks of defects or complications begin to increase :confused:

    Sand called me a sexist for pointing that out. I agree it is common sense.


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  • #397
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Jayop wrote: »
    here...



    and here...



    and here...

    and here you say all the options that were available. Apart from the one that could end an unwanted pregnancy that can occur even after using birth control.

    You went to all that trouble and that's it? Maybe you should follow your own advice and read my posts.


  • #398
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well in a country that basically outlaws abortion...

    Unplanned pregnancies happen so our society and laws say we should support mothers in cases like that. Obviously not for life though!

    No, they say we should support the children.


  • #399
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If that's how we were talking then you might be right, but as individual points within a whole load of other points then it's clearly not. Look Permabear, you've not embarrassed yourself by trying to diminish the argument with crap like this yet so please don't start now.


  • #400
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Sand wrote: »
    You went to all that trouble and that's it? Maybe you should follow your own advice and read my posts.

    Every single thing I accused you of saying in the pot you actually bolded the section in I just showed you where you said those exact things.

    Maybe you should read your own posts again too. :rolleyes:


  • #401
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #402
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    K-9 wrote: »
    But as a poster pointed out a couple of times childcare is a huge issue that gets ignored.

    The thing is, its not ignored - its no secret Ireland has very expensive child care. Some people take that information and plan for it. Others do not.


  • #403
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    I'm not saying anything about it being the state's job, but if she goes it alone for one or two children (obviously not with the father kept in the dark - I know two women who have come to this co-parenting arrangement) and she is in receipt of welfare until able to return to work (and after likely 15-20 years of working herself) I wouldn't find this situation directly comparable to someone exploiting the welfare system.

    I also think what is meant by "entitled to have children" is simply that people cannot be stopped from having children, which, in fairness, they can't.


  • #404
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Jayop wrote: »
    Every single thing I accused you of saying in the pot you actually bolded the section in I just showed you where you said those exact things.

    Maybe you should read your own posts again too. :rolleyes:

    Where did I say any of the things you accused me of saying about the woman we were discussing? You can look as hard as you want, and you wont find them.


  • #405
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Two Tone wrote: »
    I'm not saying anything about it being the state's job, but if she goes it alone for one or two children (obviously not with the father kept in the dark - I know two women who have come to this co-parenting arrangement) and she is in receipt of welfare until able to return to work (and after likely 15-20 years of working herself) I wouldn't find this situation directly comparable to someone exploiting the welfare system.

    I also think what is meant by "entitled to have children" is simply that people cannot be stopped from having children, which, in fairness, they can't.

    Jayop does find it directly comparable. He finds it comparable with people having children in the third world, so a woman having the ability to support her children is not relevant to his view that all women are entitled to have children if their clock is ticking and they dont want to die alone.


  • #406
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Sand wrote: »
    Where did I say any of the things you accused me of saying about the woman we were discussing? You can look as hard as you want, and you wont find them.

    lol I literally quoted every single thing I accused you of. Every thing.
    Sand wrote: »
    Jayop does find it directly comparable. He finds it comparable with people having children in the third world, so a woman having the ability to support her children is not relevant to his view that all women are entitled to have children if their clock is ticking and they dont want to die alone.

    keep on banging that pathetic little drum. You know your arguments don't stand up when you resort to crap like this.


  • #407
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    And just so were crystal clear. Here's my reply the last time Sand accused me of exactly the same thing.
    Jayop wrote: »
    Amazing declaration considering I've said exactly the opposite of that. I don't think people should have a load of children on benefits. I am though able to see the difference between a woman who was work in and had one child and someone who hasn't seen a job in 3 generations and has 6 kids.

    Maybe wise up and read up before you presume to know what someone is thinking.


  • #408
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Sand wrote: »
    No, they say we should support the children.

    One usually means the other. As I said previously there's not much point taking them of lone parents if they are just going on the dole instead. Or they end up working miles away and rarely see their kids during the week, a problem in the US.
    We have to think bigger when it comes to lone parents as we know it's one of the biggest risk categories. Doing things that sound great in the Daily Mail audience often aren't smart in the long run.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #409
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Sand wrote: »
    The thing is, its not ignored - its no secret Ireland has very expensive child care. Some people take that information and plan for it. Others do not.

    Tbh spending €500/600 a month on childcare and a grand on rent means a hell of a lot of planning! There isn't enough high incomes to go round. Often the same people moaning would be saying wages are too high... no consistency or logic at all.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #410
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #411
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Jayop, just to clarify your position I am going to list some positions I agree with. You can pick the ones you don't agree with.

    1 - Women in Ireland have access to a full range of contraception and sexual rights. They cannot be forced to have sex, and they have options to prevent pregnancy. Having a child is therefore the result of choices made by an adult.

    2 - All children should have equal access to a basic level of healthcare and education and opportunities.

    3 - People should plan for their families. They should not have children they do not have the ability to raise: either emotionally or financially.

    4 - People cannot and should not be prevented from having children, even if they are unable to raise them.

    5 - People ought to take care of their own child before they are expected to take care of someone else's.

    6 - The outcomes of poor choices needs to be addressed, but the root cause of the poor choices needs to also be addressed, not incentivised.


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  • #412
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    K-9 wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Business can't afford to increase minimum wage levels according to the right. Gotta stay competitive.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Firstly, I agree that in an ideal world people should be in a comfortable situation financially before having kids. Ideally that should be the case, but in many instances it's not possible.

    My gripe as I've repeated god knows how many times is that we were told that a woman wasn't entitled to have a kid. Not ten kids or a football team, 1 kid.

    As for the bit I bolded, if that was a swipe at me then just read the post at the top of the page where I quoted myself because the same accusation has been shot at me already by sand. I do not think people should have loads of kids on welfare. I'd give serious consideration to introducing a cap on the amount of welfare one household can take in in a month to stop those who do exploit the system keeping on doing so. People are still however "entitled" to have as many kids as their body will shoot out of them.


  • #413
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #414
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    K-9 wrote: »
    Tbh spending €500/600 a month on childcare and a grand on rent means a hell of a lot of planning! There isn't enough high incomes to go round. Often the same people moaning would be saying wages are too high... no consistency or logic at all.

    It really doesn't. We're not talking about a manned mission to Mars. If the rent is tight with two salaries before children are on the horizon, then they cant afford the child care.

    I've no problem with funding the care of children. Its an investment in the future. I'd rather the next generation was educated, law abiding and not crippled with easily preventable diseases. My objection is to the sense of entitlement that everyone else has to fund someone having kids they cannot support despite all the advantages and options available in Ireland. That is a corrosive idea.

    My mother recalls a woman she knew of in her childhood who had 10+ children. That woman didn't have the same education, rights or options that people today have. It is not 1950s Ireland anymore, the same excuses don't wash.


  • #415
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Of course. I don't think anyone with a bit sense would argue with encouraging sensible family planning. I know this is simplistic right v left stuff but being pro choice and encouraging availability of contraception would be very much the preserve of the left (not that nobody to the right would feel the same - obviously plenty would) and I don't think anyone with any sense would argue having several children without the financial means is a positive thing (most of all for the children's quality of life) but it can't be stopped without a drastic measure like forced sterilisation, and those children deserve supports even though their parents are exploiting this unfortunately.


  • #416
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Sand wrote: »
    Jayop, just to clarify your position I am going to list some positions I agree with. You can pick the ones you don't agree with.

    1 - Women in Ireland have access to a full range of contraception and sexual rights. They cannot be forced to have sex, and they have options to prevent pregnancy. Having a child is therefore the result of choices made by an adult.

    2 - All children should have equal access to a basic level of healthcare and education and opportunities.

    3 - People should plan for their families. They should not have children they do not have the ability to raise: either emotionally or financially.

    4 - People cannot and should not be prevented from having children, even if they are unable to raise them.

    5 - People ought to take care of their own child before they are expected to take care of someone else's.

    6 - The outcomes of poor choices needs to be addressed, but the root cause of the poor choices needs to also be addressed, not incentivised.

    1) Disagree. In a country where abortion is illegal, woman still don't have full control over whether they have babies or not unless they practice abstinence. Even at that in cases of rape they can still get pregnant and be forced to have the child.

    2) Not really. Education to a certain extent is at a high standard up to secondary level and accessible, but it's still very difficult for no or low income families to send a kid to 3rd level. Probably going to get harder too soon.

    3) In theory I agree. However as it stands in Ireland you are going to be financially able to even if not working so it's a moot point. I'd also add, if someone who has a will work for 40 odd years paying taxes has a child and claims benefits for 3 years while the child is in infancy then I have absolutely no problem with that person doing so.

    4) Agreed.

    5) Not really. We live in a system where we all pay taxes. That's like me saying I don't want to contribute to the health system because I'm not sick.

    6) Depends on what you mean as a poor choice. I don't think a woman who wants to have one child choosing to stop working for less than 10% of her working life to have one is a poor choice.


  • #417
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'm absolutely not contradicting myself. They're entitled to have as many as they want. Mechanic was talking about this woman having one.

    I really don't understand your posting style. It's like you want to score points rather than debate the topic and it's causing us to go around and around.

    Since lists are in fashion I'll do one too.

    1) A person is entitled in a free country to have as many children as they like. It's their bodies so work away.

    2) Personally I feel that a person who will otherwise work for their life is and should be entitled to welfare to support a choice of having one or two children regardless of financial circumstance.

    3) I don't like people having a load of kids to milk the system and would be happy to consider means of controlling this. Means like a household welfare limit could work, but they'd want to be properly researched and debated and not just thrown in because it looks good to Indo readers.


  • #418
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #419
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Oh my fking god it's so frustrating.

    I've never said that. I said any human is morally entitled to have children. That's regardless of benefits or anything else. It's a human right.

    Also, "above" I just posted this...
    2) Personally I feel that a person who will otherwise work for their life is and should be entitled to welfare to support a choice of having one or two children regardless of financial circumstance.

    Which is completely different to what you just said.


  • #420
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #421
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    No, but as I said, I think they just mean she can't be stopped from doing so.


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