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Greatest League in the World 2024 [new thread available]

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Comments

  • #1552
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    My understanding was all premier clubs agreed to 1 up - 1 down and thus would have won any vote 10/9. But the Rovers delegate voted with the FD Clubs making it. 10/9 the other way. Ridiculous though that the FAI can’t decide.


  • #1553
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    The FAI cannot make the decision as the clubs signed up to a contract of participation at the start of the season and would be entitled to compensation for any loss of income due to the reduced format if it was a sole decision made by the FAI. It will mean all clubs have to agree to the change, which is not the case. Yesterdays attempt was a lame one.....funny how the old FAIs best friends are the ones to rock the boat....
    Yesterday was about 2 things.....
    1. The old FAI getting one over attempts to reform
    2. Rovers trying to manouver themselves into a position where they have the best chance to win the LOI as the obviously dont believe they can do it over a normal season

    As a Dundalk fan, I can safely say there's very few Rovers fans or any players or management who don't or didn't believe they could win the league this season

    This kind of ****ing nonsense annoys me

    Fair enough they could well be doing it for the clubs benefit to keep 2 teams etc but that ****e needs to be called out


  • #1554
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    Yesterdays attempt was a lame one.....funny how the old FAIs best friends are the ones to rock the boat....Yesterday was about 2 things.....
    1. The old FAI getting one over attempts to reform
    2. Rovers trying to manouver themselves into a position where they have the best chance to win the LOI as the obviously dont believe they can do it over a normal season

    You keep 'hinting' at some sort of favouritism, conspiracy or relationship on the restart involving primarily Rovers and/or FAI without any evidence. This will be considered trolling to continue to do so.

    The vote had no impact on Rovers' position to win the league.:confused:


  • #1555
    Liberta Per Gli Ultra
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Liberta Per Gli Ultra


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    The Hope yesterday to the embarrassment today.

    Embarrassment? Who is watching and judging the LOI at the moment?

    Are the financial markets "losing confidence" in our "product"? Are the other sports laughing as they beg for money as well?
    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    When I heard the news yesterday, although I would have liked more games, football was back in some shape and we could have a LOI season played out on the pitch, at least our clubs will get a few games in before Europe if it kicks off on 31 July, I was ****ing delighted.

    Today im ashamed to be a LOI fan again.

    You showed your hand with the first bit, and then tried to make a dramatic comment about the LOI in general.

    You're doing the exact same thing that fans of my own club and many others are doing; pretending to speak for the league but actually speaking for yourself and your club.

    I'd be ashamed to be an EPL fan, but I don't follow that shìtshow.


  • #1556
    Liberta Per Gli Ultra
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Liberta Per Gli Ultra


    I'd be ashamed to be a fan of these c*nts too:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/english-rfu-to-prioritise-match-tickets-for-their-corporate-connections-1.4293811


  • #1557
    doncarlos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    The voting makes little sense to me and seems to be some shinanigans going on. Let's be honest, clubs ALWAYS vote in their self interest but Dundalk and Rovers seem to have voted in an opposite way than you'd expect. I'd imagine Rovers decision was some kind of olive branch to the first division clubs for their B team but can't figure out what Dundalk's motivation is


  • #1558
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »
    Embarrassment? Who is watching and judging the LOI at the moment?

    Are the financial markets "losing confidence" in our "product"? Are the other sports laughing as they beg for money as well?



    You showed your hand with the first bit, and then tried to make a dramatic comment about the LOI in general.

    You're doing the exact same thing that fans of my own club and many others are doing; pretending to speak for the league but actually speaking for yourself and your club.

    I'd be ashamed to be an EPL fan, but I don't follow that shìtshow.

    No im embarrassed as we are still the only country in Europe with no plan. The "NEW FAI" are as bad as the ****ing clowns who have left the show (although most still are there)

    I love LOI football, If Dundalk have no game on a Friday night, I would go watch Drogheda if they were at home or take a game in, in Dublin.
    Ive been to Showgrounds on many a Saturday night to watch a game, so dont you tell me who im speaking for


  • #1559
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,949 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    So what was the point of the vote?

    :confused:


  • #1560
    Liberta Per Gli Ultra
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Liberta Per Gli Ultra


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    No im embarrassed as we are still the only country in Europe with no plan.

    That line continues to be trotted out as if it means something, and it remains absolutely meaningless.

    Several leagues around Europe came up with a "plan" very quickly and they'll be dealing with the consequences long after we've restarted.


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  • #1561
    Liberta Per Gli Ultra
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Liberta Per Gli Ultra


    FAI may offer cash deal to First Division clubs over relegation concerns (Indo)


  • #1562
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »
    That line continues to be trotted out as if it means something, and it remains absolutely meaningless.

    Several leagues around Europe came up with a "plan" very quickly and they'll be dealing with the consequences long after we've restarted.

    We cant even start planning for any consequences for the long term on how clubs can get through it all. We need to get back playing football ASAP for the benefit of Irish football as a whole.

    Jack Byrne could have been what Ireland needed to unlock a team in the last 20 of the Semi Final or Final Ireland have coming up, more than likely he wont even get in the squad cause he wont have played much (any at this rate) football.


  • #1563
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    doncarlos wrote: »
    The voting makes little sense to me and seems to be some shinanigans going on. Let's be honest, clubs ALWAYS vote in their self interest but Dundalk and Rovers seem to have voted in an opposite way than you'd expect. I'd imagine Rovers decision was some kind of olive branch to the first division clubs for their B team but can't figure out what Dundalk's motivation is

    I didn’t know Dundalk voted with Rovers


  • #1564
    Liberta Per Gli Ultra
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Liberta Per Gli Ultra


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    We cant even start planning for any consequences for the long term on how clubs can get through it all.

    That sentence is gibberish and you missed the point. A number of leagues have created consequences for themselves (legal and financial) by forcing through decisions quickly without consensus. That's "embarrassing".
    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    We need to get back playing football ASAP for the benefit of Irish football as a whole.

    More empty language with zero explanation.

    We need to get back in a way that protects the existence of clubs throughout the league, which is difficult because of the differences in finances and priorities across the league. Hence the long process so far.
    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    Jack Byrne could have been what Ireland needed to unlock a team in the last 20 of the Semi Final or Final Ireland have coming up,

    The argument gets a bit desperate when you have to shift it this far; to a national team that many of us couldn't give a bollix about.


  • #1565
    wadacrack
    Registered Users Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭wadacrack


    https://twitter.com/mohammedali_93/status/1278686323629572096


  • #1566
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »
    That sentence is gibberish and you missed the point. A number of leagues have created consequences for themselves (legal and financial) by forcing through decisions quickly without consensus. That's "embarrassing".



    More empty language with zero explanation.

    We need to get back in a way that protects the existence of clubs throughout the league, which is difficult because of the differences in finances and priorities across the league. Hence the long process so far.



    The argument gets a bit desperate when you have to shift it this far; to a national team that many of us couldn't give a bollix about.

    So you dont agree that getting back to playing football ASAP is the number 1 priority.

    This is fellas careers, and they have kids, mortgages.

    The FAI need to come out tonight and say the way we said other night is the way we are going, end of story. Dont want to play fair enough you can reapply to play in the 1st Division next season.

    If 5 or 6 teams drop out fine, deal with it. The teams and clubs who want to play should be allowed play


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  • #1567
    grayzer75
    Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭grayzer75


    wadacrack wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/mohammedali_93/status/1278686323629572096

    How will that work with 14 days quarantine on their return as it stands?


  • #1568
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    FAI Board approve the decision made the other day.

    Now we are back on until some other club(s) object


  • #1569
    doncarlos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    joeysoap wrote: »
    I didn’t know Dundalk voted with Rovers

    Rovers voted in the way you'd expect Dundalk to vote and vice versa


  • #1570
    dan1895
    Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭dan1895


    https://twitter.com/SSEAirtricityLg/status/1278746091714985986?s=19

    And again!


  • #1571
    Gareth Keenan
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Gareth Keenan


    grayzer75 wrote: »
    How will that work with 14 days quarantine on their return as it stands?

    Rovers special tier FAI insiders to run their own personalised quarantine regime in the free SDCC stadium, OBVS.


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  • #1572
    johnnyryan89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,989 ✭✭✭johnnyryan89


    grayzer75 wrote: »
    How will that work with 14 days quarantine on their return as it stands?

    Doubt they'll have to quarantine. Players are being tested and I'd assume they'll all be tested once home and told self isolate until results are known.


  • #1573
    Irishmale0399
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    johnnyryan89 wrote: »
    Doubt they'll have to quarantine. Players are being tested and I'd assume they'll all be tested once home and told self isolate until results are known.


    https://www.the42.ie/fai-covid-19-5128363-Jun2020/


    They have suspended the testing programme and I doubt many clubs will be in a position to pay for tests themselves.


    If you are legally oblieged to go into quarantine....regardless of who you are you will have to do it. Otherwise you are making a mockery of the law in place.


  • #1574
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    doncarlos wrote: »
    Rovers voted in the way you'd expect Dundalk to vote and vice versa

    No, don’t get it.

    Did Dundalk vote for a playoff or not?

    Afaik Sligo only mentioned Rovers.


  • #1575
    DvB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,516 ✭✭✭✭DvB


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    https://www.the42.ie/fai-covid-19-5128363-Jun2020/


    They have suspended the testing programme and I doubt many clubs will be in a position to pay for tests themselves.


    If you are legally oblieged to go into quarantine....regardless of who you are you will have to do it. Otherwise you are making a mockery of the law in place.

    Testing has been factored in (at the clubs own expense) to accommodate the friendly if such guidelines are still in place at the time. The quarantine is to be reviewed for July 9th.
    "I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year" - Charles Dickens




  • #1576
    grayzer75
    Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭grayzer75


    Dundalk a running a trial streaming this morning for anyone on the Patreon Scheme - streaming a full 11 v 11 training match. Must be doing it as a test run for when the league recommences.


  • #1577
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    grayzer75 wrote: »
    Dundalk a running a trial streaming this morning for anyone on the Patreon Scheme - streaming a full 11 v 11 training match. Must be doing it as a test run for when the league recommences.

    Thanks for that Grayzer. Logged in just on time to see the goal. stream is excellent quality. One of the ‘away’ players seems to have a big bandage on his head ( half time came before I got his number)


  • #1578
    grayzer75
    Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭grayzer75


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Thanks for that Grayzer. Logged in just on time to see the goal. stream is excellent quality. One of the ‘away’ players seems to have a big bandage on his head ( half time came before I got his number)

    They just need to add the time on screen and update the score in real time but other than that the feed quality is excellent.


  • #1579
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    A few glitches, but otherwise good.


  • #1580
    Irishmale0399
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    Just watched the game. Had a bit of blurring on full screen however all in all a very stable stream. Certainly, a nice extra.


  • #1581
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Thanks for that Grayzer. Logged in just on time to see the goal. stream is excellent quality. One of the ‘away’ players seems to have a big bandage on his head ( half time came before I got his number)

    Was Cleary, he was wearing one of the Dundalk face masks as a hairband

    No McEleney? Surely couldn't be injured

    Not 100% on teams but looks like:

    Dundalk home: Rogers; Gannon, Gartland, Boyle, Massey; Shields, Sloggett; Mountney, Colovic, Oduwa; Hoban

    Dundalk away: McCarey, Dummigan, Hoare, Cleary, Leahy; Murray, Flores, D Kelly, Patching, Duffy, G Kelly.

    Some squad in fairness


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  • #1582
    doncarlos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    Thought the stream was a bit poor but watching it on a VPN through work's internet so maybe that was the issue

    Standard of the football was very good for a 0-0 game

    Can't beat working from home :)


  • #1583
    doncarlos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    Was Cleary, he was wearing one of the Dundalk face masks as a hairband

    No McEleney? Surely couldn't be injured

    Not 100% on teams but looks like:

    Dundalk home: Rogers; Gannon, Gartland, Boyle, Massey; Shields, Sloggett; Mountney, Colovic, Oduwa; Hoban

    Dundalk away: McCarey, Dummigan, Hoare, Cleary, Leahy; Murray, Flores, D Kelly, Patching, Duffy, G Kelly.

    Some squad in fairness

    Dundalk FC White
    1. Gary Rogers
    2. Sean Gannon
    3. Brian Gartland
    44. Andy Boyle
    14. Dane Massey
    5. Chris Shields
    10. Greg Sloggett
    8. John Mountney
    9. Stefan Colovic
    17. Nathan Oduwa
    9. Patrick Hoban

    Dundalk FC Black
    30. Jimmy Corcoran
    23. Cameron Dummigan
    21. Daniel Cleary
    4. Andrew Quinn
    15. Darragh Leahy
    06. Jordan Flores
    16. Sean Murray
    27. Daniel Kelly
    18. Will Patching
    7. Michael Duffy
    12. Georgie Kelly

    Substitutes
    28 Lido Lotefa
    25 Taner Dogan
    20 Josh Gatt (black)
    24 Josh Gatt (white)


  • #1584
    Irishmale0399
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    Jimmy Corcoran looked very good in goals, as did Andrew Quinn playing centre half


  • #1585
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    If rumours are to be believed....he is working in the UK for one of their shareholders. Need we say anymore???

    Surprise surprise once again one of your rumours is a load of rubbish. He's rumoured to be working for Denis O'Brien, a man who does not have anything to do with Rovers. Need we say more


  • #1586
    Irishmale0399
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Surprise surprise once again one of your rumours is a load of rubbish. He's rumoured to be working for Denis O'Brien, a man who does not have anything to do with Rovers. Need we say more


    Sorry I forgot to ask you for the inside info. Maybe you should rent a private jet...heard he is offering good deals to allies and it certainly aint Denis O´Briens company nor his jet that is being chartered.


  • #1587
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    2. Rovers trying to manouver themselves into a position where they have the best chance to win the LOI as the obviously dont believe they can do it over a normal season

    Shamrock Rovers have openly stated their preference for a 27 game season, and a one Vincent Perth said on off the ball that he believed that having a relegation playoff was what was best for sporting integrity in the league and that Dundalk only went with one up one down because it was the majority view. So once again, try again


  • #1588
    DM_7
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    Mod Notes: 1) Please avoid posting rumours about individuals outside the league. If it is something relevant to the league it should be information that can be provided with a source. Without a source it will be viewed as deliberate disruption of the thread.

    2) There was already a mod request to stop the 'hinting' at some sort of favouritism, conspiracy or relationship on the restart involving primarily Rovers and/or FAI without any evidence. This will be considered trolling to continue to do so.

    In case anyone missed the previous note: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113911842&postcount=1578

    I appreciate people may want to challenge views expressed but we need to move past it as a mod has already asked for that to stop. Challenging views now will bring the topic back and would fall into ignoring a mod instruction.

    In line with the charter please use the PM facility if anyone requires clarification.


  • #1589
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Shamrock Rovers have openly stated their preference for a 27 game season, and a one Vincent Perth said on off the ball that he believed that having a relegation playoff was what was best for sporting integrity in the league and that Dundalk only went with one up one down because it was the majority view. So once again, try again

    Bottom line: Dundalk voted in line with the wishes of the other 8 FD clubs, Rovers didn’t.


  • #1590
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Bottom line: Dundalk voted in line with the wishes of the other 8 FD clubs, Rovers didn’t.

    Well that's just not a correct statement is it...

    Even if I take a guess at what you're trying to say then all I'll say is if everyone else was jumping off a cliff would you jump too?

    And thatll be all I have to say on the matter.


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  • #1591
    pgj2015
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    im glad the league is coming back but I wouldn't watch matches on a stream,would watch if it was on RTE. im either in the stadium or wont be watching. They need to forget about not allowing crowds, just make everyone wear a mask or something.

    are RTE going to be showing any games?


  • #1592
    cms88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭cms88


    I see a few clubs have GoFundMe pages set up. Gave something to each of them myself as i always like to try and support any of the clubs when i can.

    I'm a bit surprised more didn't go down that line for the last few months though. Will it becmome a normal thing going forward?


  • #1593
    wadacrack
    Registered Users Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭wadacrack


    [QUOTE=pgj2015;113931435]im glad the league is coming back but I wouldn't watch matches on a stream,would watch if it was on RTE. im either in the stadium or wont be watching. They need to forget about not allowing crowds, just make everyone wear a mask or something.

    are RTE going to be showing any games?[/QUOTE]

    Either would I tbh, the novelty will wear off very quickly. I cant see it being sustainable at all. Maybe if their was a league pass it might work. But buying a streaming service for one club is going to be very poor value


  • #1594
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    r
    cms88 wrote: »
    I see a few clubs have GoFundMe pages set up. Gave something to each of them myself as i always like to try and support any of the clubs when i can.

    I'm a bit surprised more didn't go down that line for the last few months though. Will it becmome a normal thing going forward?

    Dundalk and Waterford going the patreon route. Dundalk are €15 amonth+ vat. waterford I believe €7 + vat,

    Dundalk have just under 250 members at present, I don’t know about Waterford ( or others )


  • #1595
    overshoot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭overshoot


    joeysoap wrote: »
    r

    Dundalk and Waterford going the patreon route. Dundalk are €15 amonth+ vat. waterford I believe €7 + vat,

    Dundalk have just under 250 members at present, I don’t know about Waterford ( or others )
    I know we also pushed the 500club at the start of this which was relaunched this year, up to around 250 members last i heard at 25e/month, but i dont think it was that far off 200 before covid.



    Have to say it (again), sligos fund raising is just phenominal, up to 64k now with 1200 donations. I think fehily from westlife put in 2500 but not heard much else in terms of large sums. Harps at 22k (despite starting earlier) with 500 or so donations. Bray approaching 3k in 3days. Waterford had a donate your ticket back at the start which is at 11k, bohs similiar 'virtual sell out' at the same figure although dont think the last 2 have been pushed much. Not sure of any others out there


  • #1596
    harpstilidie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭harpstilidie


    wadacrack wrote: »
    Either would I tbh, the novelty will wear off very quickly. I cant see it being sustainable at all. Maybe if their was a league pass it might work. But buying a streaming service for one club is going to be very poor value

    I'd love regular streaming of matches, especially away games. With most games on Friday nights driving the length of the country isn't always possible so to watch Harps games every other Friday online would be amazing. Would definitely pay for a good quality stream.


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  • #1597
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    Sligo figures are just phenomenal, Finn Harps punching well above their weight too. I think Shamrock Rovers have run a pretty good one too.

    TBH I’d be surprised if every club didn’t have some sort of fundraiser.

    I’d be happier if the Patreon VAT went to the clubs and not to the Revenue


  • #1598
    Omackeral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    overshoot wrote: »

    Have to say it (again), sligos fund raising is just phenominal, up to 64k now with 1200 donations. I think fehily from westlife put in 2500 but not heard much else in terms of large sums. Harps at 22k (despite starting earlier) with 500 or so donations. Bray approaching 3k in 3days. Waterford had a donate your ticket back at the start which is at 11k, bohs similiar 'virtual sell out' at the same figure although dont think the last 2 have been pushed much. Not sure of any others out there

    The Bohs one is actually just myself and a mate on our own, with another pal helping us do some artwork. The club can’t officially back it because they’ve endeavored to pay the players throughout this so it really limits what we could do. It has to be for our supporters trust rather than Bohs FC and basically the 11K we raised is just from me and him annoying our mates on our personal FB and twitter pages. It’s tough but we made a lot more than we thought we would. Our initial goal was €3,640 which equals €1 per seat in Dalymount at present. Anything after that has been a bonus.


  • #1599
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    Frendlies behind closed doors. We may get used to it. 500 isn’t all that greater (when it comes) though it will generate some atmosphere. Derry and Bohs ( well, we were never going to see a Rovers friendly, were we?)

    https://www.dundalkfc.com/lilywhites-behind-closed-doors/


  • #1600
    doncarlos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Sligo figures are just phenomenal, Finn Harps punching well above their weight too. I think Shamrock Rovers have run a pretty good one too.

    TBH I’d be surprised if every club didn’t have some sort of fundraiser.

    I’d be happier if the Patreon VAT went to the clubs and not to the Revenue

    I always viewed Sligo as the model for a regional club. Their fundraising and entrenchment in the community is remarkable


  • #1601
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,742 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    doncarlos wrote: »
    I always viewed Sligo as the model for a regional club. Their fundraising and entrenchment in the community is remarkable

    The new people’s club?


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