Graduate medicine Loans

Joe2011 · 13-06-2012 10:07pm

shaz84 wrote: »

Thanks for all the super support guys, I'll get an draft document put together by tomorrow with all the above info in it, in a form we can use to present to AIB. Does anyone know if you can attach a file to a post?

Also, Ive been speaking with a current first year at UCD and she has advised that their should be a government agreement in place that to ensure the banks continue providing funding to students. Does anyone know about this agreement or how we can find out about it?

To be honest, I can't imaging that the government would have had this control, given the recent situation with the banks, and im sure AIB would be aware of any such agreement if it existed. Im not too hopefully that there would be any joy here

cliona88 · 13-06-2012 10:07pm

Joe2011 wrote: »

Thanks for finding this out. What I was thinking more about was the fact that RCSI only had a deal with AIB as far as I know, whereas Cork had BOI and Im not sure about UL, which would mean that there are no funding options for RCSI if AIB is withdrawn. I presume they have pulled the plug on RCSI as well then?

does this mean that the course will be withdrawn too? surely there wouldn't be enough people with 100,000 spare euro to fill each place. if they kept the course going i would imagine the entry requirements for gamsat would drop to about 40!

Joe2011 · 13-06-2012 10:19pm

Your guess is as good as anyone's. I imagine, as they only have 30 places, they would fill them with people who live in Dublin with family etc, who only have to raise the tuition fees, although this would be a difficult task as well. As to how much points could drop, Id say it depends how many people have money lying around, which is not really information we could find out. Some how, I imaging the demand and supply would meet somewhere just below the current level. When gradmed started a few years back, with fewer places, im not sure if the loan was in place at that stage, having said that, Ireland wasn't deep in a recession back then, so people would be less likely to raise the fees now I suspect

cliona88 · 13-06-2012 10:25pm

Yeah true, I'm just freaking out about this a bit *deep breath*. I'm surprised there aren't more people on here talking about it.

zaihast · 13-06-2012 10:29pm

Im in full-on panic mode, this certainly rules out every single non-megarich EU applicant (vast majority in today's climate). Don't think there's enough time for contingency measures for the universities, absolutely gutted.

shaz84 · 13-06-2012 10:30pm

Joe2011 wrote: »

the fact that RCSI only had a deal with AIB as far as I know, whereas Cork had BOI and Im not sure about UL

From what I understand through my research to date, all three banks did offer their loan facility to all uni's, it was just that the uni's had not advertised all options in their websites. There was no restriction on which bank a student could use

Joe2011 wrote: »

which would mean that there are no funding options for RCSI if AIB is withdrawn. I presume they have pulled the plug on RCSI as well then?

It's just speculation till someone can confirm with the Westmorland st branch which handle the RCSI loans. I would tomorrow but am travelling all day, so if someone could check that would be great.

zaihast · 13-06-2012 10:35pm

I'm emailed RCSI for some clarification and alternatives (obv from a non-Irish EU perspective for myself) but hopefully they can shed some light.

shaz84 · 13-06-2012 10:35pm

Joe2011 wrote: »

To be honest, I can't imaging that the government would have had this control, given the recent situation with the banks, and im sure AIB would be aware of any such agreement if it existed. Im not too hopefully that there would be any joy here

I agree, clutching at straws so to speak, but I think it's worth a punt To do some research on It though. I'll happily do some digging. One of the uni's might know what the agreement is called, if it exists

Also, what do you mean about the recent situation with the banks? (sorry not up to scratch with news about irish banks)

Joe2011 · 13-06-2012 10:44pm

shaz84 wrote: »

I agree, clutching at straws so to speak, but I think it's worth a punt To do some research on It though. I'll happily do some digging. One of the uni's might know what the agreement is called, if it exists

Also, what do you mean about the recent situation with the banks? (sorry not up to scratch with news about irish banks)

Sorry, Im probably way off the point here. Just that after they were recapitalised by the tax payer, they were supposed to give out loans for small businesses etc much easier, once the repayments were viable. Now they are refusing viable loans to many struggling businesses. While members of the public have called on the government to force their hand with regard to lending, the government claim that they have no control over who the bank lend to, and don't want to get involved, as they don't want to encourage the banks into more bad debts like they incurred in the past.I know this has nothing to do with the academic situation, I am just trying to figure out how they woud look at the situation, if the banks claim it is not a good product for them.

Roger_that · 14-06-2012 11:36am

I've been in touch with UCD GEM office and they said that the school is medicine is contacting the banks to discuss their lending packages and will update the website when more info becomes available.

shaz84 · 14-06-2012 1:16pm

Roger_that wrote: »

I've been in touch with UCD GEM office and they said that the school is medicine is contacting the banks to discuss their lending packages and will update the website when more info becomes available.

Roger_That - this is great thank you. Did you mentioned the fact that EU / UK citizens no longer have any funding mechanism?

If not, could you please give me the contact details for the people you spoke to so I can approach them too?

I will try to have the same discussions with UL and UCC School of Medicine admissions.

many thanks
Shahram

zaihast · 14-06-2012 1:48pm

Roger_that wrote: »

Roger_That - this is great thank you. Did you mentioned the fact that EU / UK citizens no longer have any funding mechanism?

If not, could you please give me the contact details for the people you spoke to so I can approach them too?

I will try to have the same discussions with UL and UCC School of Medicine admissions.

many thanks
Shahram

Spoke to a lady in student loans at Westmorland branch of AIB and she said the agreement to provide loans for RCSI students was still in place for everyone which ud need to take out life insurance.

I asked her whether AIB would be providing loans for students for other grad courses in Ireland and she said she wasn't aware of an arrangement and it would have to be a personal loan for them decided on a case-by-case basis which would need an Ireland-base gurantor. But I think that was a bit vague.

UL have just emailed me back saying theyve forwarded my email to mike Moran at ulster bank for help but said nothing regarding my asking them whether ulster will open that loan package for non Irish eu students (it's 15000 a year) but id gladly take that at this point!

Hope UCD can clarify because they do have a campus branch for AIB as well, might ring then as well.

We need to make decisions on our choices which now will depend entirely I think on finances if indeed we get a loan from anyone at all.

Joe2011 · 14-06-2012 2:19pm

That's some good news anyway. I wonder why they are continuing to back RCSI though and not any of the others? Also, I presume this would push the points for RCSI way up, if its the only Dublin course with the loan facility still in place.

Roger_that · 14-06-2012 3:05pm

Shaz... The email is gem@ucd.ie. she didn't talk in any sort of specifics so you'll have to ask yourself (Marie is the womans name).

Re: Westmoreland st still offering loans... This seems very strange. I'd definitely consider RCSI instead of UCD (before now it was UCD 1, UCC 2). The points will definitely go up for RCSI if it is the only course offering unsecured loans. It will be interesting if we ever find out the reason

Joe2011 · 14-06-2012 3:15pm

Very strange indeed. Seing as banks would only be interested in borrower's ability to repay the loan, I doubt RCSI Doctors fair any better in the job market compared to the others? Just to be clear, have AIB definitely removed the option for UCC and UL as well?

zaihast · 14-06-2012 3:22pm

Roger_that wrote: »

Shaz... The email is gem@ucd.ie. she didn't talk in any sort of specifics so you'll have to ask yourself (Marie is the womans name).

Re: Westmoreland st still offering loans... This seems very strange. I'd definitely consider RCSI instead of UCD (before now it was UCD 1, UCC 2). The points will definitely go up for RCSI if it is the only course offering unsecured loans. It will be interesting if we ever find out the reason

Hopefully rcsi can clarify as well, I've popped them an email yesterday (to abt three emails on their site) but I called the Westmorland number listed on the website and the woman gave me the specifics of that loan which is still offered, I asked her if she'd heard of it being cancelled and she hadn't. But this is one person who I got put through in student finance.

If UCD are doing it as then it would be really helpful too because we're still going to have the vast majority of applicants who are not going to get into rcsi getting screwed over last minute with an offer an nothing to finance themself with. Its not like weve got a lot of time to arrange alternative ways for paying fees either.

Im hoping ulster/boi might considering loosening up if possible.

Roger_that · 14-06-2012 4:06pm

zaihast wrote: »

Roger_that wrote: »

Shaz... The email is gem@ucd.ie. she didn't talk in any sort of specifics so you'll have to ask yourself (Marie is the womans name).

Re: Westmoreland st still offering loans... This seems very strange. I'd definitely consider RCSI instead of UCD (before now it was UCD 1, UCC 2). The points will definitely go up for RCSI if it is the only course offering unsecured loans. It will be interesting if we ever find out the reason

Hopefully rcsi can clarify as well, I've popped them an email yesterday (to abt three emails on their site) but I called the Westmorland number listed on the website and the woman gave me the specifics of that loan which is still offered, I asked her if she'd heard of it being cancelled and she hadn't. But this is one person who I got put through in student finance.

If UCD are doing it as then it would be really helpful too because we're still going to have the vast majority of applicants who are not going to get into rcsi getting screwed over last minute with an offer an nothing to finance themself with. Its not like weve got a lot of time to arrange alternative ways for paying fees either.

Im hoping ulster/boi might considering loosening up if possible.

That is scenario definitely seems on the cards. The financing arrangements, particularly the unguaranteed AIB loan, was underpinning access to GEM for a lot of people and will really make things difficult for the colleges as well as students.

It's a mini mortgage that any working doctor will have the means to pay back and since GEM is only 5 years il they've only had 1 year to assess performance.

I can't understand it but then I don't have all the information. The colleges have to be up in arms but haven't said so in any contact I've had.

declanmoffit · 14-06-2012 7:08pm

Mine below:

Affected by AIB loan withdrawal: yes
Amount of Funding sought: probably would be able to get away with €99k - 80k
Personal funding to fall back on: no
Nationality: Irish
Do you have any other options or will you now need to look at a career change: no - medicine is the only option and finance will have to be gotten from somewhere.
Are you on GAMSAT Study Group - New Media Medicine Facebook forum: Yes (just now)

Good to see such a strong reaction to this. This is absolutely preposterous. It undermines the integrity of the whole GEM system in Ireland, a system that took over a decade and many many millions to establish. To revert to a situation where the most suitable candidates cannot enter into study and only those with a huge disposable income or have a guarantor would be a huge loss. I'm sure the medical schools are not happy about this and can and will exert pressure at a high level, to the banks and politicians. In the interim, I think it is important we all make our voices heard about this loudly and clearly. I'll be contacting AIB, BOI and UB as well as the respective GEM school offices and hopefully the heads of the respective courses. I'm sure the course organisers are extremely pissed about this.

In the scheme of things the amount of money to finance GEM students is minimal.
Let's say 220 eu/irish students this year, all of whom take a €100,000; that's 22million over 4 years, or 5.5million per year. This is a really insignificant amount in the overall books of a bank - so we must let our voices be heard now!

But I will say this - I am sure there will be finance for these courses. Otherwise the courses crumble alongside the huge investment of time and cash put into them at a national level.

p.s does anyone have a link to info. on conferral rates on any of the GEM courses thus far? (useful when trying to bring logic to bank manager)

In terms of business planning - I really don't think losing 70 med students as customers makes sense - hopefully we can get this side of the message through as it is the only one they're likely to care about.

I know that the undergrad course in ucd has a 98% conferral rate within the specified time-scale, with one 1% not conferring on time because of carrying out the optional intercalated masters. This is an extremely high rate - which almost shocked me to be honest! If anyone has info on the GEM courses please let me know. I'll be trying to get info like this from the school offices tomorrow.

Also if anybody has/could make a "usual" timeline of employment and payment by the year for junior doctors post intern year that would be great - again to be used convincing financial institutions of the likelihood of profit.

If we've not got any real clarity or obvious push from the medical schools on this by early next week I think it would be good to get a few people together, knock heads and exchange ideas and come up with a good well rounded pitch to put to the banks asking for a renewal of the GEM specific borrowing option.

Also to look at contacting local TD's.

Would be good to get your feedback/thoughts on this.

Thanks,

J

Jammyc · 14-06-2012 7:22pm

Maybe it might be an idea for us to collectively put together a letter/email that could be sent to TD's, course offices, banks etc. outlining our dissatisfaction with the move and out hope of the implementation of an alternative?

declanmoffit · 14-06-2012 7:44pm

Jammyc wrote: »

Maybe it might be an idea for us to collectively put together a letter/email that could be sent to TD's, course offices, banks etc. outlining our dissatisfaction with the move and out hope of the implementation of an alternative?

Yes. I agree completely. I'm more than willing to help with this.

Let's try and get it together by Monday.

The more people that weigh in on this the better.

shaz84 · 15-06-2012 1:58am

Declan

Pm me your email, I have a presentation we can use. Its for uk doctors in the NHS that I put together last year but it can be modified.

declanmoffit wrote: »

p.s does anyone have a link to info. on conferral rates on any of the GEM courses thus far? (useful when trying to bring logic to bank manager)

In terms of business planning - I really don't think losing 70 med students as customers makes sense - hopefully we can get this side of the message through as it is the only one they're likely to care about.

I know that the undergrad course in ucd has a 98% conferral rate within the specified time-scale, with one 1% not conferring on time because of carrying out the optional intercalated masters. This is an extremely high rate - which almost shocked me to be honest! If anyone has info on the GEM courses please let me know. I'll be trying to get info like this from the school offices tomorrow.

Also if anybody has/could make a "usual" timeline of employment and payment by the year for junior doctors post intern year that would be great - again to be used convincing financial institutions of the likelihood of profit.

shaz84 · 15-06-2012 10:14am

declanmoffit wrote: »

Let's try and get it together by Monday. .

Guys - i think it would be beneficial to have a conference call / skype conference with everyone willing to help, in order to float some ideas and get some focus on how specifically we want to move this forward.

disposition · 15-06-2012 10:21am

I'd be up for helping with this, I am not an Irish national yet, but hopefully soon.
Not sure I can do skype as I mostly live in the lab right now for my PhD, but maybe we can gather emails and send group emails or group chat? I imagine most people are on gmail these days..

shaz84 · 15-06-2012 10:25am

Thanks Disposition. email /chat is a good idea too. I think if we can use the calls as the main medium of communicating then send out actions / minutes via email we will be able to get some good momentum going given the amount of work in front of us.

zaihast · 15-06-2012 11:19am

Just been on the phone with AIB UCD branch and they've confirmed that they are no longer offer the loan package and this applies to all AIB branches, ie it's a across the board decision.

Nothing but voicemails on rcsi admission number, hope they get back to my email.

Mike for ulster bank for limerick told me their loan only applies to Irish residents (the fees only package) although they are reviewing it now whether to offer more money if possible because they used to give out more money 3-4 years ago.

I told him abt the AIB situation but he's said there's nothing they can do and well have to discuss this with the senior ppl at the universities.

I think all lobbying efforts should extend to universities too to see if we can get ulster and boi to extend their loan packages to non Irish students as well.

All in all, very depressing. Im all for the efforts regarding asking AIB to reverse their decision but have a horrible feeling abt it all ending in tears.

Moji70 · 15-06-2012 11:50am

Hi guys,
I am new to this site, but have been a keen reader in the past few weeks.
Here is my status

Affected by AIB loan withdrawal: YES
Amount of Funding sought: probably would be able to get away with €99k - 90k
Personal funding to fall back on: NO
Nationality: UK
Do you have any other options or will you now need to look at a career change: NO
Are you on GAMSAT Study Group - New Media Medicine Facebook forum: YES

With my GAMSAT score, my chances are limited to UCC and UL. Can someone please clarify what my options are regarding the bank loan (for the UK applicant)

Thanks a lot
Moji

shaz84 · 15-06-2012 2:39pm

Moji

Currently as it stands, there is no longer provision for EU non Irish citizens. Details available in the last 3 pages of this thread.

Abby19 · 15-06-2012 6:01pm

declanmoffit wrote: »

Also if anybody has/could make a "usual" timeline of employment and payment by the year for junior doctors post intern year that would be great - again to be used convincing financial institutions of the likelihood of profit.
J

You can download an excel file of all the HSE payscales here http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/Payscales/
This is basic rate, so no overtime or allowances included.

Would you consider contacting the Ministers for Health and Finance. The former is responsible for staffing for the HSE (why recruit so many NCHDs from overseas to fill staffing shortages when mature candidates are more likely to remain in Ireland) and the latter responsible for recapitalising the banks, so now has a stake in them (OK his predecessor in that role). You can get contacts for all TDs and Ministers here http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/

Jammyc · 16-06-2012 3:00pm

Does anyone have any information regarding guarantors being needed for the Ulster Bank loan and do UB do the loans only for UL or is it for all the colleges?

Palo Alto · 19-06-2012 9:58am

Really worried by this; got a mark in GAMSAT that luckily lets me choose between the colleges but without a loan of the magnitude of the AIB one, it'll be impossible for me to afford. (would be moving down from the north)

Got a reply back from RCSI saying they have meetings scheduled with BoI/Ulsterbank and are also reaching out to other UK banks and they will update the website accordingly with any updates. I would be shocked if one of the other banks with a better balance sheet than AIB wouldn't fill the void but after all the hassle and work I put in to GAMSAT the last 6 months (including leaving my job) I really could do without this additional worry!

Any updates/news on the other colleges appreciated, hard to know whether I should change the order of preference if more likely to get a loan for another course but it all seems up in the air.

Graduate medicine Loans

Comments