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Should Christains support the war in Afghanistan?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    The OP seems to support enforcing Christian values on the people of Afghanistan, perhaps I've misinterpreted what was said and if so, I apologise.

    I didn't mean to equate circumcision with FGM. However, cutting off a child's foreskin so that sexual intercourse will be less pleasurable is not so far removed from the reasoning behind FGM. Also, there are no proven hygienic benefits for circumcision.

    AFAIK, the OP is an atheist. Whatever about hygienic benefits to circumcision there are medical benefits to circumcision. But this is well off topic.


  • #33
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Which Christian nations would they be (seeing as I can't think of even one off the top of my head).

    How about half the planet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror


  • #34
    Puck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Puck


    I don't understand how or why people describe any nation as a Christian nation. In my experience the very same people spend the other half of their time (when they're not insisting that their country is a Christian country) criticising the very same country for its lack of Christian values. Stop insisting that countries are Christians and have more concern for the individual souls that make up the country. There are no Christian nations, only Christian people.

    I had to Google that picture that PDN mentioned. She's beautiful and strong and horribly scarred, the wickedness of man (including my own) will never cease to shock me. Something must be done to defend the people of Afghanistan, it looks like it was lovely, progressive country before the Taliban got their hands on it:

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan?page=full

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/19/afghan.untold/index.html


  • #35
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    seawolf145 wrote: »
    How about half the planet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror

    I don't see any Christian countries mentioned in your link - although Ethiopia did claim to be a Christian country many years ago.


  • #36
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    PDN wrote: »
    I don't see any Christian countries mentioned in your link - although Ethiopia did claim to be a Christian country many years ago.

    Oh Sorry excuse me i am Scandinavian.
    Didnt know that Ireland was the only Christian country.Maybe we should continue worshipping Odin and Thor again and maybe take Valhalla instead of Heaven.


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  • #37
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    seawolf145 wrote: »
    Oh Sorry excuse me i am Scandinavian.
    Didnt know that Ireland was the only Christian country.Maybe we should continue worshipping Odin and Thor again and maybe take Valhalla instead of Heaven.

    That doesn't make any sense.


  • #38
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    That doesn't make any sense.

    I don't see any Christian countries mentioned in your link - although Ethiopia did claim to be a Christian country many years ago

    This doesnt make any sence either?Is it just me or?


  • #39
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I haven't read your link but PDN's meaning seems fairly obvious.


  • #40
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I haven't read your link but PDN's meaning seems fairly obvious.

    In what way obvious?Its not to me anyway?


  • #41
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    irishconvert wrote: »
    "Thou shall not kill"

    BTW, all translations I have looked at don't mention the word kill, they mention the word murder. While I support the rights of conscientious objectors it is debatable if this position is expressly taught in all cases. For example, one could argue that choosing not to directly fight the evil of Nazism (and I realise that there are many ways to fight) is itself a form of evil.
    seawolf145 wrote: »
    In what way obvious?Its not to me anyway?

    I'll let PDN explain it to you.


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  • #42
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    BTW, all translations I have looked at don't mention the word kill, they mention the word murder. While I support the rights of conscientious objectors it is debatable if this position is expressly taught in all cases. For example, one could argue that choosing not to directly fight the evil of Nazism (and I realise that there are many ways to fight) is itself a form of evil.



    I'll let PDN explain it to you.

    Thank you


  • #43
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    seawolf145 wrote: »
    In what way obvious?Its not to me anyway?

    Antiskeptic asked which Christian countries are involved in Afghanistan.

    You replied by saying about half the world.

    My point is that none of those are Christian countries. Neither is Ireland a Christian country.


  • #44
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    PDN wrote: »
    Antiskeptic asked which Christian countries are involved in Afghanistan.

    You replied by saying about half the world.

    My point is that none of those are Christian countries. Neither is Ireland a Christian country.

    So Who\what is a christian country?Excuse my ignorance!!!
    You mentioned earlier Ethiopia did claim to be a Christian country many years ago.
    They are not Christian today?And Why not?
    And according to wikipedia

    According to the 2007 National Census, Christians make up 62.8% of the country's population (43.5% Ethiopian Orthodox, 19.3% other denominations), Muslims 33.9%, practitioners of traditional faiths 2.6%, and other religions 0.6%[1] This is in agreement with the updated CIA World Factbook, which states that Christianity is the most widely practiced religion in Ethiopia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia


  • #45
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    seawolf145 wrote: »
    So Who\what is a christian country?Excuse my ignorance!!!
    You mentioned earlier Ethiopia did claim to be a Christian country many years ago.
    They are not Christian today?And Why not?
    And according to wikipedia

    According to the 2007 National Census, Christians make up 62.8% of the country's population (43.5% Ethiopian Orthodox, 19.3% other denominations), Muslims 33.9%, practitioners of traditional faiths 2.6%, and other religions 0.6%[1] This is in agreement with the updated CIA World Factbook, which states that Christianity is the most widely practiced religion in Ethiopia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia

    I don't believe that there is any such thing as a Christian country. Nor do I think there should be any such thing.

    Christianity is a faith system which, if practised anything close to how Jesus taught, will inevitably favour the weak and the dispossessed over the politically powerful. Any nation that claims to be Christian inevitably ends up perverting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and justifying greed and oppression. Therefore Christianity has always operated best as a countercultural force.

    The United States, although a large percentage of the population has always claimed to be Christian, has from the beginning observed the separation of Church and State. I wish others had the same good sense.


  • #46
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    PDN wrote: »
    I don't believe that there is any such thing as a Christian country. Nor do I think there should be any such thing.

    Christianity is a faith system which, if practised anything close to how Jesus taught, will inevitably favour the weak and the dispossessed over the politically powerful. Any nation that claims to be Christian inevitably ends up perverting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and justifying greed and oppression. Therefore Christianity has always operated best as a countercultural force.

    The United States, although a large percentage of the population has always claimed to be Christian, has from the beginning observed the separation of Church and State. I wish others had the same good sense.

    Ok fair enough i am not a religious man myself,but back to the conflict in Afghanistan.
    The war against terror should really be a matter for the hole world though.
    Doesnt matter if you are Christian,Buddist or Muslim or Atheist for that matter.
    Its a thing that concerns us all isnt it?if its not stopped now its going to effect us sooner or later!!!


  • #47
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    seawolf145 wrote: »
    Ok fair enough i am not a religious man myself,but back to the conflict in Afghanistan.
    The war against terror should really be a matter for the hole world though.
    Doesnt matter if you are Christian,Buddist or Muslim or Atheist for that matter.
    Its a thing that concerns us all isnt it?if its not stopped now its going to affect us sooner or later!!!

    One of the first questions to be asked before deciding to go and kill other people is: am I being manipulated by others into thinking there is a justifiable reason to go kill other people?

    In the case of the so-called War on Terror there is very good reason to question the underlying motives - not least of which is the person(s) pushing the start button on said war: George Bush and the puppeteers behind him.

    (If anything amazes me it's the time taken by those oppressed by US Imperialism to strike back on their oppressors home turf)


  • #48
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    PDN wrote: »
    I don't believe that there is any such thing as a Christian country. Nor do I think there should be any such thing.

    Christianity is a faith system which, if practised anything close to how Jesus taught, will inevitably favour the weak and the dispossessed over the politically powerful. Any nation that claims to be Christian inevitably ends up perverting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and justifying greed and oppression. Therefore Christianity has always operated best as a countercultural force.

    The United States, although a large percentage of the population has always claimed to be Christian, has from the beginning observed the separation of Church and State. I wish others had the same good sense.
    Yes, I agree that there cannot be a Christian country in that sense. But in the sense of one run by or on behalf of those with Christian beliefs, there have been some - and still are to some extent.

    Any nation whose constitution professes it to be 'under God' can be said to be a Christian country. That most are terrible examples of Christian practice is another issue.

    Most of Europe; the U.K; Ireland; the U.S.A; Latin America; etc. have a formal Christian origin.

    However, most of those countries - the U.K. and The U.S.A. especially - are run by atheists and are rapidly adopting expressly non-Christian laws and worldviews. It has not been Christian principles that have motivated their conduct for many years. Christian belief has been at most a restraint on the hedonism of the rulers and most of the governed.
    _________________________________________________________________
    Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together


  • #49
    Puck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Puck


    "Under God" is not a specifically Christian term.


  • #50
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Puck wrote: »
    "Under God" is not a specifically Christian term.
    It was used to signify the nation's subjection to the Christian God. Not just any god.
    _________________________________________________________________
    Patrick Henry:
    "Orator of the Revolution."
    • This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
    —The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

    “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

    “The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”


  • #51
    Puck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Puck


    Arguing that a nation is Christian because it mentions God in its constitution is like arguing that a person is Christian because they were baptised as a baby.


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  • #52
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    AFAIK, the OP is an atheist. Whatever about hygienic benefits to circumcision there are medical benefits to circumcision. But this is well off topic.

    I did not realise that the OP was not Christian, rather changes things. I disagree that there are medical benefits to circumcision, but agree that this is not the place to discuss it.


  • #53
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    seawolf145 wrote: »
    Ok fair enough i am not a religious man myself,but back to the conflict in Afghanistan.
    The war against terror should really be a matter for the hole world though.
    Doesnt matter if you are Christian,Buddist or Muslim or Atheist for that matter.
    Its a thing that concerns us all isnt it?if its not stopped now its going to effect us sooner or later!!!

    If it's really a "War on terror", why are they in Afghanistan then? Most of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi. Please wake up and stop believing everything the media tell you.


  • #54
    drifting
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭drifting


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Oh yeah? I'll grant you the Vatican as an example of a Christian nation but can you name others?
    I think that was a grant much too far. The Vatican was built with, and is now sustained with, money taken from the poor by priestcraft on threat of eternal damantion. I was even once induced myself to part with large sums of money. Now if you could show that the Vatican had been honestly built through the hard labours of the clerics, I would change my mind.

    It was only yesterday, that I read in the paper that the "church" - not the RCC this time - is still trying to lay their hands on the savings and houses of the poor. Enough of this. It takes more than outward shows of piety to be labelled a "Christian nation."


  • #55
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Puck wrote: »
    Arguing that a nation is Christian because it mentions God in its constitution is like arguing that a person is Christian because they were baptised as a baby.
    If they were subsequently raised to observe Christian morality and sent to church occasionally, that would be analogous to the U.K. and the U.S.A. until well into the 20th C. Neither the person nor these nations were actually Christian, but lived under at least a nominal commitment to Christian truth.

    That's why I think we can use the term 'Islamic' to describe a nation that has the code of Islam underlying its laws, even if it is motivated more by greed or whatever. Same for any religion/ideology, including Christianity.

    _________________________________________________________________
    Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
    Abraham Lincoln

    Second Inaugural Address

    Saturday, March 4, 1865


  • #56
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    If they were subsequently raised to observe Christian morality and sent to church occasionally, that would be analogous to the U.K. and the U.S.A. until well into the 20th C. Neither the person nor these nations were actually Christian, but lived under at least a nominal commitment to Christian truth.

    I'm pretty sure Christian morality is very similar to Jewish morality, apart from some eating habits.
    Christian morality is very similar to my own actually, apart from some short list of things what I do.


  • #57
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.”

    “Do not use force against an evil man.”

    “Do not resist evil with evil.”

    “Forgive and you will be forgiven.”

    “He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword.”

    “do to others as you would have them do to you.”

    Regardless of whether the ten commandments specify murder or general killing the new testament lays out pretty strongly that Christianity is a peaceful religion and as such, in my opinion, nobody should use Christianity to validate their support of the war in Afghanistan.


  • #58
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Christian morality is very similar to Jewish morality, apart from some eating habits.
    Christian morality is very similar to my own actually, apart from some short list of things what I do.
    I agree, as far as public morality is concerned. But wonderfulname points to individual morality, and the command of God is not the same for individuals and the State.

    I'm certainly not saying the U.K. or America lived consistently be either, just that it was their law-code, the standard they were supposed to aim at. And that the State formally acknowledged its submission to God.
    _________________________________________________________________
    God save our gracious Queen,
    Long live our noble Queen,
    God save the Queen:
    Send her victorious,
    Happy and glorious,
    Long to reign over us:
    God save the Queen.
    O Lord, our God, arise,
    Scatter her enemies,
    And make them fall.
    Confound their politics,
    Frustrate their knavish tricks,
    On Thee our hopes we fix,
    God save us all.
    Thy choicest gifts in store,
    On her be pleased to pour;
    Long may she reign:
    May she defend our laws,
    And ever give us cause
    To sing with heart and voice
    God save the Queen


  • #59
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.”

    “Do not use force against an evil man.”

    “Do not resist evil with evil.”

    “Forgive and you will be forgiven.”

    “He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword.”

    “do to others as you would have them do to you.”

    Regardless of whether the ten commandments specify murder or general killing the new testament lays out pretty strongly that Christianity is a peaceful religion and as such, in my opinion, nobody should use Christianity to validate their support of the war in Afghanistan.
    The above refers to the individual's responsibilities. But God has given the State additional duties and powers. It has the duty to restrain evil citizens and to reward good ones. It has also the duty to protect the nation from outside attack. In all this it acts as God's minister, on His behalf.

    Individuals do not have that duty as of right, but they may be called on to act on behalf of the State.

    So has the State the right to oppress its people or wage unjust wars? No. So our stance on Afghanistan has to be thought out on the basis of complex realities, not misapplying God's commands. Was my State unjust in invading Afghanistan - maybe, but not because it is never right to go to war. Was my State just in invading Afghanistan - maybe, but not because it is allowed to do what it likes.
    _________________________________________________________________
    Romans 13: 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.


  • #60
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    So has the State the right to oppress its people or wage unjust wars? No. So our stance on Afghanistan has to be thought out on the basis of complex realities, not misapplying God's commands. Was my State unjust in invading Afghanistan - maybe, but not because it is never right to go to war. Was my State just in invading Afghanistan - maybe, but not because it is allowed to do what it likes.

    This is a valid point, I did approach the issue from a personal stance, however I still believe Christians should advocate the highest possible levels of peace in any situation.

    But anyway back to the larger scale, we do have the Just War Theory and the RC church has come to the conclusion that the war in Afghanistan and Iraq can not be supported by the church as they do not fit its model for a just war. I know the papacy doesn't speak for all Christians but I did find this article charting The Papacy's Response to the War in Iraq since 2003 which may clear up the issue for some.


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  • #61
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    This is a valid point, I did approach the issue from a personal stance, however I still believe Christians should advocate the highest possible levels of peace in any situation.

    But anyway back to the larger scale, we do have the Just War Theory and the RC church has come to the conclusion that the war in Afghanistan and Iraq can not be supported by the church as they do not fit its model for a just war. I know the papacy doesn't speak for all Christians but I did find this article charting The Papacy's Response to the War in Iraq since 2003 which may clear up the issue for some.
    Thanks for the link.

    Yes, the Iraq War seems very doubtful to say the least. Afghanistan is another matter. It seemed to be a leading element in permitting the strikes on the West. So the initial war to remove the militants and hunt the terrorists has credibility in a Just War model (if we ignore the various Conspiracy theories, for sake of the argument).

    Anything from Rome on that?
    _________________________________________________________________
    Romans 13: 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.


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