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European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

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    #122
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Onto a new chapter...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz_gOFRwTcg


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    #123
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The debate here went to is the EU great or not.

    The real question is can it survive this and will it make an effort to do this.


    Pretending everything is a Brexiteer like view is foolish.

    Jack Delors, former president of the Commission and a man who could be described as the father of the EU has pointed out that this could kill the EU and the EU approach to it is sorely lacking.


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    #124
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    Great, I assume we all want to see Britain thrive outside of the EU.
    I just want to see them outside the EU, the will of the people and all that


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    #125
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    2u2me wrote: »
    This is surely the greatest challenge the Union has ever faced?

    I don't see a lot of solidarity in this time of crisis.
    are you talking about the uk


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    #126
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    declanflynn wrote: »
    are you talking about the uk

    I think you're in the wrong thread! Brexit forum down the street.


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    #127
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    declanflynn wrote: »
    are you talking about the uk

    You are completely obsessed with Brexit, aren't you.

    Brexit is over, all have moved on, there is now a one in a century economic crisis brewing.

    A multi trillion package will he needed to prevent all of Western Europe falling into a depression.

    Brexit is so small and irrelevant now that it doesn't merit consideration.

    The crisis facing Western Europe is bigger than Europe, not just the EU, and may need a G20 response as well.


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    #128
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    Buzzwords you say, seems literally thousands if not millions of people seem to see the same thing with the EU, Google is filled with articles with people who have noticed the same thing.....

    So you can't explain why you want to return to the EEC or what advantages it offers over the EU but you've read some articles and decided to believe them. Fair enough


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    #129
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Danzy wrote: »
    You are completely obsessed with Brexit, aren't you.

    Brexit is over, all have moved on, there is now a one in a century economic crisis brewing.

    A multi trillion package will he needed to prevent all of Western Europe falling into a depression.

    Brexit is so small and irrelevant now that it doesn't merit consideration.

    The crisis facing Western Europe is bigger than Europe, not just the EU, and may need a G20 response as well.
    It's a global crisis and everything is potentially on the cards. There is quite frankly a hell of a lot dysfunctional union across the Atlantic for example and while NY Exit or Cali exit is certainly far fetched their is already talk of it


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    #130
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Can what are small nations thrive in a world without alliances?

    The EU is at best going to be the third biggest political and economic block going forward, if it breaks up, how do it's former members get on?

    A federal Europe might seem unlikely now but it might be the only realistic option long term


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    #131
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,747 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.


    It is people blaming the EU while at the same time not wanting to give the EU the power is where the biggest problem is.
    It is an excuse to blame the EU and divert blame from individual countries for their own failing.
    The argument about austerity does not have any ground to it, Greece is regarded to have been one of the best in the EU with the handling of the virus pandemic.


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    #132
    ArchXStanton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It is people blaming the EU while at the same time not wanting to give the EU the power is where the biggest problem is.
    It is an excuse to blame the EU and divert blame from individual countries for their own failing.
    The argument about austerity does not have any ground to it, Greece is regarded to have been one of the best in the EU with the handling of the virus pandemic.

    "in Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Portugal and Spain, where mass cuts and hospital privatisations have taken place, has resulted in an upsurge in infectious diseases, including HIV, and suicides"

    "Healthcare is a national competence, not the remit of the EU. Right? Yes and No. Rulings from the European Court of Justice, and the European Commission’s policies of recent years, mean that “Services delivered by national health systems are, as a rule, now considered as an economic activity”

    Article from 2017..

    https://corporateeurope.org/en/power-lobbies/2017/06/creeping-privatisation-healthcare

    Austerity has had disastrous effects on healthcare systems as evident by our own the last few years... Now the **** has really hit the fan... Isn't neoliberalism just dandy...


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    #133
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    "in Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Portugal and Spain, where mass cuts and hospital privatisations have taken place, has resulted in an upsurge in infectious diseases, including HIV, and suicides"

    "Healthcare is a national competence, not the remit of the EU. Right? Yes and No. Rulings from the European Court of Justice, and the European Commission’s policies of recent years, mean that “Services delivered by national health systems are, as a rule, now considered as an economic activity”

    Article from 2017..

    https://corporateeurope.org/en/power-lobbies/2017/06/creeping-privatisation-healthcare

    Austerity has had disastrous effects on healthcare systems as evident by our own the last few years... Now the **** has really hit the fan... Isn't neoliberalism just dandy...
    So change it? Neoliberalism isn't a core principle of the EU. The EU isn't perfect but it can fixed


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    #134
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,544 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    They are just saying that to try scare their way to get the financial outcome they want.

    With a mega recession looming I bet none would leave.


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    #135
    ArchXStanton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    So change it? Neoliberalism isn't a core principle of the EU. The EU isn't perfect but it can fixed

    It's neoliberal to its very core, you'd need to tear the whole house down...

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=41571


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    #136
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    It's neoliberal to its very core, you'd need to tear the whole house down...

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=41571

    There is nothing about neoliberalism in any of the treaties as far as I know


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    #137
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,747 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1249070402854359051?s=20

    There are inconvenient truths like the above and the fact Germany has taken patients from Italy and France into their own ICU's, with an open offer to Italy to take more. Germany sent ventilators to Spain.
    Anti-EU people will be silent on these acts of solidarity within the EU, and when it comes to solidarity within the EU, it seems that people always expect Germany to lead.
    One could argue that Germany has been doing acts of solidarity to help the EU during this virus outbreak, but it is not always seen, a bit like the virus.


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    #138
    nigeldaniel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    The EU is safe enough, can't see it falling apart at all, no matter how much the US and Russia would love it too.

    Dan.



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    #139
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,747 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    "in Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Portugal and Spain, where mass cuts and hospital privatisations have taken place, has resulted in an upsurge in infectious diseases, including HIV, and suicides"

    "Healthcare is a national competence, not the remit of the EU. Right? Yes and No. Rulings from the European Court of Justice, and the European Commission’s policies of recent years, mean that “Services delivered by national health systems are, as a rule, now considered as an economic activity”

    Article from 2017..

    https://corporateeurope.org/en/power-lobbies/2017/06/creeping-privatisation-healthcare

    Austerity has had disastrous effects on healthcare systems as evident by our own the last few years... Now the **** has really hit the fan... Isn't neoliberalism just dandy...

    National choices on where to make cuts to control spending.
    Ireland is spending more money than ever on health and one has to wonder where the money goes, I doubt its on front line staff.


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    #140
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    "in Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Portugal and Spain, where mass cuts and hospital privatisations have taken place, has resulted in an upsurge in infectious diseases, including HIV, and suicides"

    "Healthcare is a national competence, not the remit of the EU. Right? Yes and No. Rulings from the European Court of Justice, and the European Commission’s policies of recent years, mean that “Services delivered by national health systems are, as a rule, now considered as an economic activity”

    Article from 2017..

    https://corporateeurope.org/en/power-lobbies/2017/06/creeping-privatisation-healthcare

    Austerity has had disastrous effects on healthcare systems as evident by our own the last few years... Now the **** has really hit the fan... Isn't neoliberalism just dandy...
    Is your NHS any better than our system


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    #141
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Rodney Bathgate wrote:
    A quick search shows that McGiver isn't even Irish, yet he is throwing around accusations about Russian bots and foreign influence on an Irish site?

    Meh. So you're an excellent Irish fascist then? Which makes it worse than being a direct Russian bot.

    Roight, how dare dem bloody forinners post on our full Oirish boards? And on the topic of the EU! Tis an absolute disgrace.


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    #142
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    I want it to go back to the EEC, when it someway worked, Europe has gone to sh*te since its started to flex its muscles, right around the time of the financial crash
    How about going back to the European Steel and Coal community? Must be even better!

    Now, kidding aside - EEC is gone and going back to it is not possible. It's like saying dog should go back to being a wolf. Not possible. Evolution has moved on.


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    #143
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    It's neoliberal to its very core, you'd need to tear the whole house down...

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=41571
    Right, you're of the hard-left eurosceptic kind. Most europhobes are fascists... so this is a rare find.

    Socialists should support an internationalist organisation like the EU in principle. If you don't, does it mean you are a National Socialist? These two notions don't really go well together but there's one particular National Socialist Party in Europe at the moment as I'm aware - Sinn Fein. Did I get it right?

    Now, about the EU being neoliberal. EU is essentially centrist and based on what the bulk of the member state governments are comprised of at the moment. If you think the EU is neoliberal then you should visit the US or the UK in future. If there was no EU, European economies would be much more neoliberal under the US influence. The EU protects Europe from the US type of neoliberalism.

    This is another eurosceptic paradox: the fascists claim the EU is too socialist/communist and the socialists/communists claim it's too neoliberal. Which one is it?


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    #144
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Can what are small nations thrive in a world without alliances?

    The EU is at best going to be the third biggest political and economic block going forward, if it breaks up, how do it's former members get on?

    A federal Europe might seem unlikely now but it might be the only realistic option long term

    There is now no chance of a federal Europe.


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    #145
    ArchXStanton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    McGiver wrote: »
    How about going back to the European Steel and Coal community? Must be even better!

    Now, kidding aside - EEC is gone and going back to it is not possible. It's like saying dog should go back to being a wolf. Not possible. Evolution has moved on.

    Why not? There was talk of going back to just the single market in an EU white paper on the future of Europe after the Brexit vote, my guess that was all lip service to stem the tide of growing euro scepticism, bureaucrats have already decided our future for us... More of the culture of deceit that permeates the EU..

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/future-europe/white-paper-future-europe/white-paper-future-europe-five-scenarios_en


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    #146
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    +1
    The pro-EU'ers here really do their cause no favours either. Nonsense about Trump (the obsession - for or against- many on this site have with the man is bizzare!), Russians, Brexit all thrown in as if it somehow adds weight to their arguments or discredits anyone. Leave that nonsense to Americans on Twitter where it belongs.
    Absolutely not. Doesn't belong only to Twitter and it's not only an American issue.

    The EU is at war with Russia. Russia has been waging massive information war with the EU (and the US partially) since at least 2010 aimed at causing polarisation, distrust, disruption, destabilisation, erosion and eventual destruction of democracy. This is a fact not a fairy tale created by Twitter warriors, American liberals or as you say "europhiles". Many, if not all, intelligence agencies of EU states are aware of this and have documented this fact.

    Russian regime is using frustrated and marginalised people to amplify its propaganda messages aimed at the above goals, they are funding and supporting all disruptive fascist/populist movements in Europe which exactly target these groups of people.
    The frustrated, marginalised and left behind you mentioned are not the fault of the EU, they are just pawns used by huge Russian effort to break our unity and create chaos, which means Europe would revert to the old disunited Europe of several dozens of small countries fighting each other which the Russians then can blackmail with their natural resources and military power. No, thank you. United we stand.


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    #147
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The extremely limited mandate of the ECB is a very significant issue which at some point IMO will need to be addressed. Having a central bank with only inflation control as its objective is lunacy, and is one of the reasons governments are forced to repair and bail out the private financial system as opposed to the body which is supposed to be directly in charge of it. During a crisis such as this, the ECB should be front and centre in ensuring that the economy doesn't collapse while in a medically induced coma, but as its mandate is solely limited to price stability and it is forbidden from taking direct monetary financing action the way most central banks are not, it essentially has to play fast and loose with the rules, and come up with elaborate workarounds to do what it needs to do without violating the idiotic concept that its only responsibility is to inflation control.

    To this end, while the breakup of the EU is unlikely, I would suggest that the Eurozone as it currently exists is fundamentally flawed and is doomed to eventual failure sooner or later.


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    #148
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    _Brian wrote: »
    They are just saying that to try scare their way to get the financial outcome they want.

    With a mega recession looming I bet none would leave.

    Wow


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    #149
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Danzy wrote: »
    There is now no chance of a federal Europe.

    im not saying its a desirable option but in order to remain relevant , blocks need to be formed , not one country in europe is powerful in a global sense on their own

    china , the usa or russia will boss all of the individual countries of the EU around if if the union falls apart but under its current guise , its stumbling from one crisis to the next


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    #150
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    im not saying its a desirable option but in order to remain relevant , blocks need to be formed , not one country in europe is powerful in a global sense on their own

    china , the usa or russia will boss all of the individual countries of the EU around if if the union falls apart but under its current guise , its stumbling from one crisis to the next
    Yes. It will be a marriage of convenience.

    Either choose a global irrelevance with belligerent UK, Russia and Turkey on the flanks, medium to the small countries competing each other, with China and US sharks controlling the global scene.

    Or unite and set the third path, as opposed to the US or Chinese way, and challenge them. And protect our way of life.

    The only country that could somehow make it alone is Germany, but even they understand that United Europe is the only option moving forward. Also, all EU countries prefer Germany contained within the EU than going it alone. It would absolutely dominate Europe otherwise.


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    #151
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    Why not? There was talk of going back to just the single market in an EU white paper on the future of Europe after the Brexit vote, my guess that was all lip service to stem the tide of growing euro scepticism, bureaucrats have already decided our future for us... More of the culture of deceit that permeates the EU..

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/future-europe/white-paper-future-europe/white-paper-future-europe-five-scenarios_en
    No. There wasn't such a talk. It's simply not a feasible option. The scenario was not about the EU going back only to the Single Market.

    The scenario was about the EU focusing only on the Single Market moving forward whilst keeping everything else in place.
    In a scenario where the EU27 cannot agree to do
    more in many policy areas, it increasingly focuses on
    deepening certain key aspects of the single market.
    There is no shared resolve to work more together in
    areas such as migration, security or defence.
    As a result, the EU27 does not step up its work in
    most policy domains. Cooperation on new issues of
    common concern is often managed bilaterally. The
    EU27 also significantly reduces regulatory burden
    by withdrawing two existing pieces of legislation for
    every new initiative proposed.


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