Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

trellheim · 16-01-2018 2:01pm

That T2 Spar is probably one of the most useful shops in the airport , its nearly the very definition of a convenience store if you need to grab milk or bread before heading home in a taxi.

It sells perfectly serviceable coffee already at a decent price.

goingnowhere · 16-01-2018 6:24pm

trellheim wrote: »

That T2 Spar is probably one of the most useful shops in the airport , its nearly the very definition of a convenience store if you need to grab milk or bread before heading home in a taxi.

Exactly, it serves a actual need

But why would the DAA want to make the airport suit passengers needs, they are looking for ways to extract as much cash out of us as possible, hence the jungle like experience behind the T1 security and the ridiculous obstacle course in T2 where the gates are hidden

MJohnston · 16-01-2018 6:40pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Exactly, it serves a actual need

But why would the DAA want to make the airport suit passengers needs, they are looking for ways to extract as much cash out of us as possible, hence the jungle like experience behind the T1 security and the ridiculous obstacle course in T2 where the gates are hidden

That doesn't really make sense - why would a coffee shop vs a Spar make DAA more cash from passengers?

Jamie2k9 · 16-01-2018 6:43pm

MJohnston wrote: »

That doesn't really make sense - why would a coffee shop vs a Spar make DAA more cash from passengers?

The retailer may be prepared to pay higher rent. WH Smith offer almost an identical range so why have two shops when a cafe would suit a lot more people waiting for arrivals and or those arriving passengers.

The reality is here that Spar were unlikely to renew the contract.

That T2 Spar is probably one of the most useful shops in the airport , its nearly the very definition of a convenience store if you need to grab milk or bread before heading home in a taxi.

It sells perfectly serviceable coffee already at a decent price.

You can stop at Topaz or the other Spar instead....

Spar is just a rip off anyway.

orionm_73 · 16-01-2018 6:43pm

MJohnston wrote: »

That doesn't really make sense - why would a coffee shop vs a Spar make DAA more cash from passengers?

The DAA make money from the rent paid by the retailer. I would imagine a big coffee chain with international presence has offered more in rent than the incumbent Spar.

rushfan · 16-01-2018 6:47pm

goingnowhere wrote:

But why would the DAA want to make the airport suit passengers needs, they are looking for ways to extract as much cash out of us as possible, hence the jungle like experience behind the T1 security and the ridiculous obstacle course in T2 where the gates are hidden

How do you mean by "the gates are hidden?

salmocab · 16-01-2018 6:49pm

I’ve used that spar for the likes of bread and milk on the way home but it never seemed busier than any other spar and with airport rental prices I’d say it’s a tight enough operation with little room for bigger rental fees.

MJohnston · 16-01-2018 6:54pm

orionm_73 wrote: »

The DAA make money from the rent paid by the retailer. I would imagine a big coffee chain with international presence has offered more in rent than the incumbent Spar.

I'd have my doubts about that tbh, but possibly also Spar didn't want to compete because they didn't find it profitable though?

L1011 · 16-01-2018 7:19pm

Most of the 'rents' in the airport are turnover % rather than fixed rents; I would imagine a branded coffee shop will have a lower turnover but could possibly offer a far higher % due to the huge margins. Margins on many newsagent style items are extremely thin (smokes, lotto, newspapers, payzone are specifically poor). Margin on coffee and buns is astronomical.

trellheim · 16-01-2018 7:38pm

You can stop at Topaz or the other Spar instead....

Spar is just a rip off anyway.

But if I'm in a taxi I dont want to get out into the cold again till I'm at my own front door

Agree its convenience pricing but in this case.... it IS a convenience

!!!

goingnowhere · 16-01-2018 8:28pm

rushfan wrote: »

How do you mean by "the gates are hidden?

Buried as far away from security, hidden behind a corner

rushfan · 16-01-2018 8:45pm

goingnowhere wrote:

Buried as far away from security, hidden behind a corner

Hidden? Are you for real? Do you genuinely have difficulty reading flight information screens? Can you not follow the route to the gates? How come 28 million pax manage to find these mysteriously hidden gates?

LXFlyer · 16-01-2018 9:03pm

rushfan wrote: »

Hidden? Are you for real? Do you genuinely have difficulty reading flight information screens? Can you not follow the route to the gates? How come 28 million pax manage to find these mysteriously hidden gates?

I think that the other poster’s point is that you are forced to pass through the entire retail area in T2 to get to the 400 gates (and then double back on yourself a bit before going down the escalators). There’s no direct route that bypasses it.

But clearly that’s how the airport generates revenue, so it’s not really unexpected.

rushfan · 16-01-2018 9:10pm

LXFlyer wrote:

I think that the other posterâ€™s point is that you are forced to pass through the entire retail area in T2 to get to the 400 gates (and then double back on yourself a bit before going down the escalators). Thereâ€™s no direct route that bypasses it.

I would disagree. You're not really FORCED through the retail area in T2. More so in T1 because of the serpentine curve through the shops. But to suggest that the gates are hidden is utter nonsense to be frank.

goingnowhere · 16-01-2018 9:13pm

rushfan wrote: »

Hidden? Are you for real? Do you genuinely have difficulty reading flight information screens? Can you not follow the route to the gates? How come 28 million pax manage to find these mysteriously hidden gates?

DAA has set up a maze in T2 which requires you to loop around

Into security, exit left, then turn right, navigate the obstacle course, left and left again. Its designed to force you to walk past the entire spread of expensive retail outlets

You could if the DAA hadn't built all those walls walk in a straight line from security to the escalators down to the gates

The 300 gates entrance in T1 buried among a pile of cosmetic shops

It doesn't facilitate quick movement through the airport, lots of pinch points as you navigate around people gawping at the shops.

Compared to T2 LHR, straight out of security, head down, gates are there, wide unobstructed isles.

rushfan · 16-01-2018 9:18pm

Christ, spare me from the snowflake generation.

16-01-2018 9:58pm

Dublin airport is on a par with pretty much ever other major airport that I’ve been through including Heathrow T2 where you still have to pass by lots of shops, restaurants and seating areas to access a gate.

lord lucan · 16-01-2018 9:59pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

DAA has set up a maze in T2 which requires you to loop around

Into security, exit left, then turn right, navigate the obstacle course, left and left again. Its designed to force you to walk past the entire spread of expensive retail outlets

You could if the DAA hadn't built all those walls walk in a straight line from security to the escalators down to the gates

The 300 gates entrance in T1 buried among a pile of cosmetic shops

It doesn't facilitate quick movement through the airport, lots of pinch points as you navigate around people gawping at the shops.

Compared to T2 LHR, straight out of security, head down, gates are there, wide unobstructed isles.

You're really going to love the new layout of retail in T2 when it's completed in 18 months!!

****Sarcasm****

Jamie2k9 · 16-01-2018 10:01pm

trellheim wrote: »

But if I'm in a taxi I dont want to get out into the cold again till I'm at my own front door Agree its convenience pricing but in this case.... it IS a convenience !!!

Send the driver in for a few extra quid

Jamie2k9 · 16-01-2018 10:03pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

DAA has set up a maze in T2 which requires you to loop around

Into security, exit left, then turn right, navigate the obstacle course, left and left again. Its designed to force you to walk past the entire spread of expensive retail outlets

You could if the DAA hadn't built all those walls walk in a straight line from security to the escalators down to the gates

The 300 gates entrance in T1 buried among a pile of cosmetic shops

It doesn't facilitate quick movement through the airport, lots of pinch points as you navigate around people gawping at the shops.

Compared to T2 LHR, straight out of security, head down, gates are there, wide unobstructed isles.

DUB is probally one of the best airports around in terms of layout from security to gate. Shops are part of the experience, look at places like LGW where you must do a 360 almost and then more shops before you can get to gates.

Tenger · 16-01-2018 10:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Dublin airport is on a par with pretty much ever other major airport that I’ve been through including Heathrow T2 where you still have to pass by lots of shops, restaurants and seating areas to access a gate.

I went thru FCO in 2015. Checked in T1, felt like Iwas walking thru Dundrum enroute to the end of the terminal. (Bus transfer to T3)

16-01-2018 11:01pm

Tenger wrote: »

I went thru FCO in 2015. Checked in T1, felt like Iwas walking thru Dundrum enroute to the end of the terminal. (Bus transfer to T3)

Barcelona is the same, endless shops. Orlando is by far the worst I’ve experienced.

nsa0bupkd3948x · 16-01-2018 11:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Barcelona is the same, endless shops. Orlando is by far the worst I’ve experienced.

Sanford or International? I'd have said MCO is one of the better ones for not making you have to walk through shops. Unless they have recently changed one of the concourses.

16-01-2018 11:44pm

Ameer Breezy Trial wrote: »

Sanford or International? I'd have said MCO is one of the better ones for not making you have to walk through shops. Unless they have recently changed one of the concourses.

MCO pre security i just a shopping mall and a hotel lobby with carpet.

nsa0bupkd3948x · 16-01-2018 11:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

MCO pre security i just a shopping mall and a hotel lobby with carpet.

Thats interesting you see it that way. To me MCO is the opposite of a shopping mall.

Go in to check in hall - no shops. If you go straight to security then you might pass one or two small ones. Its not like you're forced to navigate a maze thru shops.

It's only if you walk from one end to the other past the food court there is the line of shops.

TheFitz13 · 16-01-2018 11:53pm

Sorry to derail the thread but that snow would hardly stop flights tomorrow? Due to fly out at 4pm tomorrow.

Noxegon · 17-01-2018 1:02am

Agreed with Pat - I frequently buy milk at that Spar on the way home. I hope whatever replaces it will sell milk too.

Jamie2k9 · 17-01-2018 1:52am

TheFitz13 wrote: »

Sorry to derail the thread but that snow would hardly stop flights tomorrow? Due to fly out at 4pm tomorrow.

It shouldn't.

JCX BXC · 17-01-2018 2:00am

TheFitz13 wrote: »

Sorry to derail the thread but that snow would hardly stop flights tomorrow? Due to fly out at 4pm tomorrow.

God no, check the forecast! Will be well too warm and raining by then!

Although, this brings me on to my remark of Dublin's inability to clear snow in an efficient manner.

Snow stopped around 23:30-23:45 at the airport, with the first estmate of reopening at 00:20. However, this has been continually pushed back to eventually reaching 01:15 now, and still likely to be later. Why has the airport such an inability to deal with snow? Has nothing been learned since 2010?

Pat Dunne · 17-01-2018 3:32am

So the job of clearing the snow took 55 minutes longer to do than originally anticipated. Its all very easy to be critical when you're wrapped up nice and warm typing furiously over a hot keyboard and not out on a dark miserable night with the wind and snow. I say well done to the ground crews who did a great job tonight in what were far from ideal conditions.

JCX BXC · 17-01-2018 9:25am

Pat Dunne wrote: »

So the job of clearing the snow took 55 minutes longer to do than originally anticipated. Its all very easy to be critical when you're wrapped up nice and warm typing furiously over a hot keyboard and not out on a dark miserable night with the wind and snow. I say well done to the ground crews who did a great job tonight in what were far from ideal conditions.

Calm down Pat.

While I've no doubt that the crews working themselves did a good job, it's clear that there was a massive lack of communication, possibly a failure/lack of protocol and the thing was a mess. Is this acceptable for an international airport nearing 30 million passengers yealy? Why can airports such as Belfast, Manchester, Knock nearby all clear snow much more efficiently? Important questions that should be asked.

I'm sorry if this hurts you Pat, however using cop outs like "It's easy to sit at home warm typing furiously" doesn't contribute to anything and really says that you don't have anything to debate, other than adding some passive agressiveness.

Bussywussy · 17-01-2018 10:57am

So did the plan in the fancy snow plan booklet sent around work?? Some pics from people working there showed some of the brand new unused tractors sitting there covered in snow..

Tenger · 17-01-2018 11:26am

Lets all of us just calm down a little. No need to be throwing passive agressive slights at other posters.

Tenger · 17-01-2018 11:30am

Im going to take a guess that perhaps the airport has less than its full complement of ramp workers after 10pm at night. Thus the snow plan (Im sure the DAA have a term for it!) which works well from 0600-2100 is a little slower outside these times.
Times are just a guess on my part. A problem could well be that the line mangers thought DUB had escaped the worst of it and/or didnt add extra bodies to deal with expected coverage.
I do agree that the time taken was quite long but we dont know the condition's on the gorund or the resources available. Perhaps the 0020 opening was overly optimistic and made before the work got underway?

Pat Dunne · 17-01-2018 11:50am

I work very close to DUB (2km from T2) and witnessed the conditions first hand when I was finishing up work at 12 midnight and driving home along the perimeter road of 10/28 a little later.

Again I will say well done to all the machine operators and ground staff you did a great job last night.

To paraphrase my earlier post, "it's easy to be critical from afar.

17-01-2018 12:49pm

What I’m told is, the runway and taxiways were swept clear but by the time they finished they needed another going over due continuous falling snow.

JCX BXC · 17-01-2018 1:02pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What I’m told is, the runway and taxiways were swept clear but by the time they finished they needed another going over due continuous falling snow.

That would have been understandable, however it's clear from the radar and reports from the weather thread that all snow stopped before midnight.

Conflats · 17-01-2018 2:03pm

Would the fact we don't get frequent snow not allow for the fact that clearing the airfield of snow and ice by crews who I'm sure practice the job, when the real thing happens things will be a little slower the first time due to people taking care and other kinks to work out?

Practice is great learning tool but you can't foresee the actual situation and how it will plan out.

Gaoth Laidir · 17-01-2018 2:06pm

I'd say the lads went:

Who's seen the keys for the snow tractors?
You had them last.
No i didn't, you had them.
Found them!
Crank crank....the flecking battery's flat! They've been sitting here idle too long!

Jamie2k9 · 18-01-2018 1:28am

Not wanting to be to critical of staff, but the performance last night was poor, yes it took almost an extra hour to open the runway. Snowfall was not exceptionally heavy and this would beg the question, how prepared are they for heavy snow.

Hopefully daa take the time to look and see where they can improve.

Captain_Crash · 18-01-2018 9:14am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not wanting to be to critical of staff, but the performance last night was poor, yes it took almost an extra hour to open the runway. Snowfall was not exceptionally heavy and this would beg the question, how prepared are they for heavy snow.

Hopefully daa take the time to look and see where they can improve.

It rained straight after, that rain would have froze pretty quick considering the temp and the snow already on the runway... so it taking almost an extra hour to clear, at night when there was likely a reduced staff number, is excellent.

If anything, they may have been too optimistic with the estimated opening time and if they told people they would be done at 00:30 instead of 23:30 (or whatever the times were) then we'd be praising them on this thread and not finding fault.

EchoIndia · 18-01-2018 9:25am

Captain_Crash wrote: »

It rained straight after, that rain would have froze pretty quick considering the temp and the snow already on the runway... so it taking almost an extra hour to clear, at night when there was likely a reduced staff number, is excellent.

If anything, they may have been too optimistic with the estimated opening time and if they told people they would be done at 00:30 instead of 23:30 (or whatever the times were) then we'd be praising them on this thread and not finding fault.

Unless anyone posting here has direct knowledge of what is involved and what was done on the night in question, I find it hard to see how they can judge whether a "good" or "not so good" job was done. Runway 10/28 and the main taxi routes and several parking stands had to be cleared. These are extensive areas when they are added up. From listening to ATC that night, the runway had to be done a second time after clearance and spraying, as the braking coeffcient was still not deemed sufficient. Having the airport fully functional for the inbound long-distance arrivals and large morning departure wave would probably have been regarded as the greater priority and if just one arrival had gone off the runway edge or end, I can imagine the judgements that would have been made of the airport authorities and their staff.

Jamie2k9 · 18-01-2018 5:57pm

Captain_Crash wrote: »

It rained straight after, that rain would have froze pretty quick considering the temp and the snow already on the runway... so it taking almost an extra hour to clear, at night when there was likely a reduced staff number, is excellent.

If anything, they may have been too optimistic with the estimated opening time and if they told people they would be done at 00:30 instead of 23:30 (or whatever the times were) then we'd be praising them on this thread and not finding fault.

From what I gather staff were on standby from early evening so "reduced staff" isn't exactly a good reason. If they were too optimistic with runway opening time than that's something they can learn and improve the workload for airline planning.

Unless anyone posting here has direct knowledge of what is involved and what was done on the night in question, I find it hard to see how they can judge whether a "good" or "not so good" job was done. Runway 10/28 and the main taxi routes and several parking stands had to be cleared. These are extensive areas when they are added up. From listening to ATC that night, the runway had to be done a second time after clearance and spraying, as the braking coeffcient was still not deemed sufficient. Having the airport fully functional for the inbound long-distance arrivals and large morning departure wave would probably have been regarded as the greater priority and if just one arrival had gone off the runway edge or end, I can imagine the judgements that would have been made of the airport authorities and their staff.

It was fully functioning by morning but after a lot of diversions and it could of been higher only for the runway resurfacing works where most airlines are getting back pre 23.00. Morning departures couldn't happen if night stopped couldn't of got in...

As I said always room to improve and didn't at all intend to just criticize staff for the good job they did.

JCX BXC · 18-01-2018 6:46pm

I think any criticism is taken as a direct insult to staff, its not, and I'm not sure why anyone would think it is.

I'm sure staff worked their hardest, however there was clearly issues.

There's a few questions that should be answered as a result.

*Why was a more realistic reopening time not initially given? The opening time kept being pushed back 10-15 minutes. This as a result had many aircraft holding for around an hour before ultimately diverting, costing several thousands euro worth of fuel that probably could have been saved from being used.

*Would it have been quicker to clear RWY16 first? Hence resulting in less diversions and less holding time.

*Why did ATC encounter such difficulty in enquiring about the status of the runway?

*Is there an issue with communication between the station manager on the ground and ATC? When LVP's are coming into place ATC have no idea how long it will take for protocol to be put in place on the ground, and are only simply told when its all in place. Is there a lack of plans for these scenarios?

*After there brutal winter's of 2009-2010 and 2010-2011, what new protocol has been put into place for clearing snow and contaminents from the runway?

Keep in mind I mean no insult to the staff, my enquiries are mainly about protocol and communication.

Charles Babbage · 20-01-2018 11:48pm

Changed times infrastructure wise
http://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0426/870470-dublin-airport-new-terminal/

Apologies if this was posted before, forum search suggests not.

Carawaystick · 22-01-2018 1:03am

EchoIndia wrote: »

Unless anyone posting here has direct knowledge of what is involved and what was done on the night in question, I find it hard to see how they can judge whether a "good" or "not so good" job was done. Runway 10/28 and the main taxi routes and several parking stands had to be cleared. These are extensive areas when they are added up.

A Good or Bad job can easily be determined if you take the baseline of Helsinki Airport, which last closed in 2003 from winter weather. DAA obviously decided not to invest in staff and equipment to deal with winter weather

EchoIndia · 22-01-2018 1:14am

Carawaystick wrote: »

A Good or Bad job can easily be determined if you take the baseline of Helsinki Airport, which last closed in 2003 from winter weather. DAA obviously decided not to invest in staff and equipment to deal with winter weather

Comparing Dublin with a Scandinavian country like Finland is nonsense. You would be investing in equipment and staffing that would see little, if any, use in an average Irish winter.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-01-2018 1:16am

It's a lot easier to invest in measures to counteract winter weather when you predictably have it every year. To expect a country like our own to be able to deal with it like Scandinavia is unrealistic. We would not tolerate the extra costs in the public sector or in semi-private entities like DAA to have resources sitting idle for the odd occasion every few years when they might be needed.

George Sunsnow · 22-01-2018 11:26am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a lot easier to invest in measures to counteract winter weather when you predictably have it every year. To expect a country like our own to be able to deal with it like Scandinavia is unrealistic. We would not tolerate the extra costs in the public sector or in semi-private entities like DAA to have resources sitting idle for the odd occasion every few years when they might be needed.

^^^

This

Plus the point I made on the weather forum
Icy winter airports like say HEL, KEF or DME have to have snow clearance teams every day in winter,each day gaining experience and maintaining efficiency
Dublin gets their weather in a blue moon
Ergo people there have to remember what they did 10 years ago and hurriedly gather people together most of whom might not have been there at all for the last episode
No comparison

Kournikova · 24-01-2018 1:13am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a lot easier to invest in measures to counteract winter weather when you predictably have it every year. To expect a country like our own to be able to deal with it like Scandinavia is unrealistic. We would not tolerate the extra costs in the public sector or in semi-private entities like DAA to have resources sitting idle for the odd occasion every few years when they might be needed.

Exactly, if they invested in such resources I can imagine the Indo having a pop with the usual "semi state body wastes money on irrelevant resources - privatise now"

Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

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