Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

darkpagandeath · 01-08-2014 2:04am

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Ukraine has shelled into Russia already. They are looking to provoke at every opportunity. They have engaged in murder and mayhem in eastern Ukraine using their entire military arsenal against the population there. A UN report recently said that 1,100 people are now dead because if this, the vast majority of those people were civilians.

Im not saying they did it, yet, but i will repeat the very level headed and reasonable assumption that the Kiev government is by far the loosest cannon in the field and they have already racked up a substantial death toll with no regard for civilians lives.

I thought it was the other way around, Ukraine has been very weary of putting Russia in a position that it could declare war.

Fig of Fallacy · 01-08-2014 2:10am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I thought it was the other way around, Ukraine has been very weary of putting Russia in a position that it could declare war.

I cant post links cause im a new member sorry. Just google Ukraine shells Russia and more than a few reputable news agencies reported on it. One person was killed it appears.

DamagedTrax · 01-08-2014 2:13am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I thought it was the other way around, Ukraine has been very weary of putting Russia in a position that it could declare war.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/ukraine-crisis-mortars-idINKBN0FU1EO20140725

Fig of Fallacy · 01-08-2014 2:22am

Also, a previous incident where they killed one person and injured two others, is up on the same website. Dated 2014/7/13.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 2:24am

smurfjed wrote: »

So guys what do you think about this?

I have actually tried to dig up what you posted and have come up with a piece in the New York Post.

The headline reads:

"Evidence Mounts of pro-Russia rebels altering MH-17 crash site"

Within the body of this article the so called evidence is shrouded in the claims that:

“There is evidence starting to emerge of attempts at tampering with the crash scene, moving bodies and black boxes,” one official said, according to The Times of London.

Now I know that standards are fairly low of late but by what stretch of the imagination does moving a corpse or perhaps even lifting up a found black box recorder constitute "tampering with the crash scene"?

A medical crew running through the wreckage in search of someone clinging to life is also "tampering" with a crash site, by these abysmal benchmarks.

This article also mentions that Britain (not anyone in particular, not an agency or an individual...just "Britain") said it was "highly likely" that the plane was shot down with a Russian missile.

And this dross is printed and published and expected to garner credibility or even consideration.

deco nate · 01-08-2014 2:26am

DamagedTrax wrote: »

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/ukraine-crisis-mortars-idINKBN0FU1EO20140725

Sorry but that is funny, imo.

He said, she said.....

Its only cause they move out the troops before the bombings, lol (yes I'm paraphrasing)

deco nate · 01-08-2014 2:31am

Egginacup wrote: »

I have actually tried to dig up what you posted and have come up with a piece in the New York Post.

The headline reads:

"Evidence Mounts of pro-Russia rebels altering MH-17 crash site"

Within the body of this article the so called evidence is shrouded in the claims that:

“There is evidence starting to emerge of attempts at tampering with the crash scene, moving bodies and black boxes,” one official said, according to The Times of London.

Now I know that standards are fairly low of late but by what stretch of the imagination does moving a corpse or perhaps even lifting up a found black box recorder constitute "tampering with the crash scene"?

A medical crew running through the wreckage in search of someone clinging to life is also "tampering" with a crash site, by these abysmal benchmarks.

This article also mentions that Britain (not anyone in particular, not an agency or an individual...just "Britain") said it was "highly likely" that the plane was shot down with a Russian missile.

And this dross is printed and published and expected to garner credibility or even consideration.

Yet again, can you post a link?
Instead of posting a bit?

If you post a link it will help
You're view if people can read it for themselfs

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 2:55am

deco nate wrote: »

You said it was proven to be
Fake, can you post a link to it,
Or whatever site you heard this from.

As in the mod said to post links to claims, and not
Just post without backing
Up your post?

deco, as a new user I am not allowed to post links. I'll try to skirt that but so far I have read this: (the (dot)s are of course "."'s

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/the-buk-launcher-supposedly-videod-scooting-off-to-russia-we-already-nailed-this-once/

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741664

Now I'm not sure what to make of this one. It seems to say yes AND no to fakery but I'm going to post it anyway. You can digest from it what you will:

www.stopfake.org/en/fake-ukrainian-army-transported-sam-buk-with-one-missing-rocket-on-the-territory-controlled-by-ukraine/

I'll leave it there for the moment.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 3:02am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That could of all happened while the separatists were helping secure the site, Did they not already verify and explosion on the Flight data recorder.

I'm not sure who this Peter Haisenko person is but as a scientifically qualified person myself it is very easy, in fact elementary, to determine the behaviour and difference of metal rupture at 30,000 feet and at ground level.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 3:18am

danniemcq wrote: »

Yeah I'm gonna call out that site to be quite far out there when it comes to ummm level headed research.

Its no BBC or Reuters now is it?

globalresearch is indeed a bit of a melodramatic stretch I'll have to admit. I'll read everything printed therein with an open mind but yes I do find it a bit reaching.

gandalf · 01-08-2014 3:34am

Egginacup wrote: »

Deco, this is not a game of one-upmanship.

If you are familiar with the video of a convoy supposedly moving back to Russia after an alleged attack on a passenger airliner then you also ought to ask the same questions as I.

Is it anywhere near the Russian border?
I'm not from the area. I've never been there but those who do know the area state that it is in Krasnoameirsk. I can't prove that what they are saying is correct since again I have no idea about that area, those buildings and those signs.

But much like anything else, the footage is doubtful. Dubious. And until things are proven ironclad then I'm afraid I can't be swayed.

We are talking about apportioning blame here based on opinion and hearsay. Blame, based on nothing other than prejudice, that could punish those who are non-culpable.
I need ABSOLUTE proof that someone is guilty before I give my approval that they should be punished.

These standards don't seem to apply to many on this forum. A baseless accusation or an inkling of suspicion appear to be sufficient to level guilt and ultimately punishment/retribution.

My price is higher than rage and it's higher than settling for a mob vote. There are people out there with the skill and expertise and wherewithall to get to the bottom of this. There are also those with the same qualifications to do the opposite for whatever reason.

I have not heard a single convincing argument implicating either the Novorussian militia or the Russians in this crime.

Digressing back to the video and audio segments that count as the bulk of the proof against Russia and Novorussian militants, I will if you wish try to dig up accounts by those who live in or are familiar with the area of Krasnoameirsk and see if their talk of this area is more credible than my speaking on their behalf.

Multiple articles from different sources. The first two are from journalists on the ground interviewing people who spotted the Buk heading towards the Russian border.

The other two show that the footage seems to be quite legitimate and does show a BUK in the Pro-Russian Terrorist areas.

Now please show me your evidence that they are false so we can compare.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/ukraine-sightings-missile-launcher-mh17

Claims by pro-Russia separatists in east Ukraine that they have never been in possession of the missile launcher apparently used to down flight MH17 are looking increasingly flimsy, as several witnesses told the Guardian they had seen what appeared to be a Buk missile launcher in the vicinity of the crash site last Thursday.

http://www.businessinsider.com/donetsk-resident-speaks-about-malaysia-airlines-crash-2014-7

According to the second witness, the Buk missile system spotted in Torez, Ukraine, "was being towed and it was transported to the Snezhnoye." Snezhnoye is a rural locality in the Donest'ka Oblast'. Torez and Snezhnoye are 11.8 km apart.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/23/citizen-journalists-mh17-spies/

These findings certainly don't prove that Russia was responsible for the downing of MH17, as Higgins himself admits, but rather provide strong evidence that pro-Russian rebels possess (or possessed, until very recently) a Buk missile launcher, and that it was close to the crash site before and after the plane was shot down.

"It's interesting that this launcher took a trip through rebel-held territory to the launch site and then up toward the rebel-held city toward the border with Russia," Higgins said.

http://blog.storyful.com/2014/07/19/how-social-sleuthing-uncovered-evidence-of-anti-aircraft-missile-system-in-eastern-ukraine/#.U9r5qGOCiKU

While the investigation into the attack is likely to go on for an extended period of time, initial reports from the scene, gathered from several social platforms, provide insights into the crash and the location of a ‘Buk’ missile system in the separatist controlled area prior to the attack.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 3:38am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again I will ask, What possible reason would Ukraine have to shoot down a passenger jet. They could not misidentify it as an enemy plane, As the enemy has no Air force. Same if it was the leaders plane or a Russian jet that would lead to Direct war with Russia. The only people in the Area that were shooting down Planes were the separatists. I would like reasoned thinking not some CT, There are a lot of CT developing around this. So could someone please give me any reason why the Ukraine would shoot down a passenger jet ?

And I would assume for the sake of argument, Shooting a Pressurised passenger jet with 30 mm explosive rounds or depleted Uranium would not just leave 30 mm holes.

If your'e attempting to rope people into territory where you are unwilling to contemplate then you are using the wrong tack. Setting aside prejudices, fears, biases and even evidence (or lack thereof) and being completely emotionally detached from this entire episode then I would imagine that you could agree on the following:

The Malaysian airliner was shot down:

1. By Novorussian militants on purpose.
2. By Novorussian militants by mistake.
3. By Ukrainian forces on purpose.
4. By Ukrainian forces by mistake.
5. By other actors in the area on purpose.
6. By other actors in the area by mistake.

If there is another category not covered by the aforementioned then let me know. But thus far these are the possibilities.
Can we go through each of these eventualities very simply and very impartially and discuss the possibilities, probabilities, and likelihoods?

I'll start with point 1. that the Novorussian militants shot the plane down on purpose. I suppose it's possible. But why? If a nutcase in charge of a BUK battery did this just for the fun of it then I would imagine his superiors would not only apologise for the loose cannon but would also take him out the back and have him shot. That is of course if it was a loose cannon. If the entire Novorussian militia from boots to brass were au fait with simply murdering a bunch of civilians from so many different countries then why?

So that's question one. I may have completely missed something regarding the Novorussians deliberately doing this so if you pick up on it then feel free to interject. But for now I'd like to know your thoughts on possibility number 1.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 4:04am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Have not seen that on any reputable news site, Is there a link to where this information is coming from ?

Well there lies the rub. It will not be found on your A-list of news sites many of whom have already selected a narrative or had their integrity compromised by previous misrepresentation. So while I am fully aware that the likes of Fox News are skewed towards a certain angle I will still read and take as fact what they print if their headline is "1 + 1 = 2" or "11 missing after tornado". There's no skirting that kind of factual issue.

So, I'm not sure that you will entertain any sources outside of the carved narrative. Nobody on here with a bias gives RT, PressTV, The Guardian, the time of day. Al Jazeera is scoffed at, members of the US intelligence community are dismissed if they have an opposing view..the reasoning being sometime that they are disgruntled ex-wannabes or lunatics who have been exposed to Agent Orange. The excuses go on an on.

I will read and consider absolutely EVERYTHING no matter how outlandish. I will entertain the extreme and using powers of deduction, logic and simple reasoning come to the conclusion regarding what is possible and what is utter nonsense.
Unfortunately so many within this thread will not even trust themselves to do or attempt such a thing.

So if you are interested in sources, sources or links the veracity of which I can't copperfasten, then I will thankfully provide them for your own perusal, digestion and edification. But know full well that there is a core within this thread and their entire modus has been simply to call names when met with disagreement. Accusations of being interns and paid by Moscow etc . This kind of thing.

So if you are interested I'll try to stipulate.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 4:12am

DamagedTrax wrote: »

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/ukraine-crisis-mortars-idINKBN0FU1EO20140725

Douglas Lute. I knew I recognised that name from somewhere. But that's another discussion entirely.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 4:42am

gandalf wrote: »

Multiple articles from different sources. The first two are from journalists on the ground interviewing people who spotted the Buk heading towards the Russian border.

The other two show that the footage seems to be quite legitimate and does show a BUK in the Pro-Russian Terrorist areas.

Now please show me your evidence that they are false so we can compare.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/ukraine-sightings-missile-launcher-mh17

http://www.businessinsider.com/donetsk-resident-speaks-about-malaysia-airlines-crash-2014-7

http://mashable.com/2014/07/23/citizen-journalists-mh17-spies/

http://blog.storyful.com/2014/07/19/how-social-sleuthing-uncovered-evidence-of-anti-aircraft-missile-system-in-eastern-ukraine/#.U9r5qGOCiKU

Well, now before we go any further with your post I'd like to hold you up on the "pro-Russian Terrorist" label.

Unfortunately I'm permitting myself to be dragged away again from the issue at hand..namely the absence of evidence proving Russian and/or Novorussian guilt in this crime.

But if you are going to label a group of people as "terrorists" then I would hope you have the rationale to justify this label.

From what I understand a terrorist is one who perpetuates violence against civilians and non-combatants in order to further a political goal.
How do the Novorussian militants fall under the category of terrorists?

Unless I'm pitifully mistaken they are resisting encroachment and military attack from a Kiev government from whom they are not only estranged but also under threat of persecution.
Elements within the new Kiev regime have referred to ethnic Russians as "sub-humans".

So, while there are two (or maybe more) sides to this issue, Novorussian fighters can no more be classed as terrorists than French Resistance fighters, Slav Partizans, or anyone else in a similar category. And if you are tempted to state that they killed 298 passengers, ergo they must be terrorists then I would again ask you to present proof whilst also reminding you that Kiev forces have killed thousands of civilians and the proof isn't needed.

gandalf · 01-08-2014 8:10am

But they are being classified and described as terrorists by the inhabitants of the areas that they hold and have held. They act like terrorist, behave like terrorist therefore they are terrorist. The even more laughable situation is that some of them even consist of far right neo Nazi Russians.

danniemcq · 01-08-2014 8:31am

MOD

If you are unable to post a link, then make the post and add a note saying you have pm'd a mod.

send me a pm with the link and a link to the post and I will add it.

Fig of Fallacy · 01-08-2014 2:23pm

gandalf wrote: »

But they are being classified and described as terrorists by the inhabitants of the areas that they hold and have held. They act like terrorist, behave like terrorist therefore they are terrorist. The even more laughable situation is that some of them even consist of far right neo Nazi Russians.

Their local self defense militia's, formed for the sole purpose of trying to protect people + territory from the lunatics in Kiev who've already killed over 1000 people. They come from the communities they defend. They are hardly considered terrorists by their own community

Only the NATO war mongers in Washington and London and their 'dogs off the leash' in Kiev use the term 'terrorists'.

Most people who live in eastern Ukraine, especially those 100,000 who have to flee further east or into Russia for fear of being murdered by Kiev are more likely to call the Ukrainian government 'Terrorists' as the facts clearly show that they have been terrorizing there own people with large scale military action against them.

Show me evidence that the separatists have terrorized anyone? All ive seen is that they have been fighting the Ukrainian military in a defensive fashion.

01-08-2014 4:02pm

http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told

Makes for interesting reading and viewing if you can believe any of it.

Egginacup · 01-08-2014 4:10pm

gandalf wrote: »

But they are being classified and described as terrorists by the inhabitants of the areas that they hold and have held. They act like terrorist, behave like terrorist therefore they are terrorist. The even more laughable situation is that some of them even consist of far right neo Nazi Russians.

"They act like terrorist, behave like terrorist therefore they are terrorist" ??

What is this supposed to mean?
Terrorists terrorise a civilian population in order to have it cave in to their will/demands

hairybelly · 01-08-2014 4:12pm

Me wonders what the reaction would have been if it was an American jet that was shot down instead of a malaysian one.

KahBoom · 01-08-2014 4:21pm

You only need to step into Israel vs Palestine thread, to see that the word 'terrorist' has no meaning whatsoever anymore - it's used so inconsistently, that it basically means "anyone who the US/west labels a terrorist", and nothing else.

darkpagandeath · 01-08-2014 4:23pm

KahBoom wrote: »

You only need to step into Israel vs Palestine thread, to see that the word 'terrorist' has no meaning whatsoever anymore - it's used so inconsistently, that it basically means "anyone who the US/west labels a terrorist", and nothing else.

Not only the West, Does Russia not say the same thing about Nazis/Terrorists in power in Kiev ?

smurfjed · 01-08-2014 4:56pm

Buried...

hearing Ukrainian Air Traffic Control give a direct order to MH-17 to change course to a direct flight path into the conflict zone

Its extremely common for ATC to give direct routings, but if you read the rest of the quoted newspaper report you will read that ATC tried calling the aircraft again, minutes later. Thats not really a lot of time for the aircraft to have gone too far off the select course.

Figs Of Fallacy,
The impact points shown on the photos are around the cockpit, due to the relative velocities of approaching aircraft, the ideal position for someone to shoot at another aircraft is from the rear as you overtake, not head to head. As for ANTI TANK shells from an SU-25

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 0.8 (975 km/h, 526 knots, 606 mph) at sea level
Combat range: 750 km (405 nmi, 466 mi) at sea level, 4,400 kg (9,700 lb) weapons and two external tanks
Service ceiling: 7,000 m[98] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons
Rate of climb: 58 m/s (11,400 ft/min)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25

That isn't fast enough to catch a B777 from the rear, not has it the ability to climb to 34000 feet.

According to the report of German pilot and airlines expert Peter Haisenko, the MH17 Boeing 777 was not brought down by a missile.

Sorry but i have just technically rebutted his statement in 10 seconds, can't really consider him to be much of an aviation expert.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111

No where in this does he state the two easy facts that i have shown above.

Deco_nate, Egg was actually responding to a post by me, and he gave the correct reference from the NYPost. This was before the MOD instruction to add all references.

smurfjed · 01-08-2014 4:58pm

Me wonders what the reaction would have been if it was an American jet that was shot down instead of a malaysian one.

Whats the difference? My feelings would be exactly the same if it was a US, Malaysian, Emirates or Aeroflot jet. I don't like the idea of commercial airliners getting blown out of the air.

smurfjed · 01-08-2014 5:03pm

I'm not sure who this Peter Haisenko person is but as a scientifically qualified person myself it is very easy, in fact elementary, to determine the behaviour and difference of metal rupture at 30,000 feet and at ground level.

But as a scientifically qualified person you will understand the information that i posted about aircraft operating ceilings and relative velocities. So it should be easy for you to rebut Peter Haisenko.

smurfjed · 01-08-2014 5:15pm

http://nypost.com/2014/07/31/soldiers-selfies-might-prove-russias-role-in-ukraine/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/does-this-soldiers-instagram-account-prove-russia-is-covertl

I would say that this poor guys career in the military will be short lived.

smurfjed · 01-08-2014 5:38pm

A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 2,000 miles per hour (3,200 km/h) (or more than 3,000 feet per second (910 m/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

So it actually appears that the BUK missile system is designed to detonate close to the target and shower it with fragments. Oops, does this also disprove the latest it was shot down by anti tank shells theory ?

buried · 01-08-2014 5:40pm

smurfjed wrote: »

Buried...
Its extremely common for ATC to give direct routings, but if you read the rest of the quoted newspaper report you will read that ATC tried calling the aircraft again, minutes later. Thats not really a lot of time for the aircraft to have gone too far off the select course.

Fair enough, but the main point of that article indicates that the civil air ministry released a statement that "there was no Air India flight near the ill-fated Malaysian plane at the time of the incident", which is a total lie.

smurfjed · 01-08-2014 5:48pm

True... with internet based apps like FR24/Flight aware, its pretty stupid for any representative to deny things like this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-t-blackmore/russian-buk-missile-syste_b_5606487.html

This is an interesting article comparing the Russian SA11 system with the US Hawk system. The author asks an extremely pertinent question at the end....

However, the American company, Raytheon, manufactured approximately 40,000 HAWK missile systems that have been sold to and operated by numerous countries including, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. So one of my questions is: where are all of these HAWK missile systems?

Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

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