idea !

thebaz · 09-06-2009 9:07am #1

With Ireland doing so well in the World Cups, and apparently not close to test status - and as a result of our success likely to lose our best players to England - to keep things interesting , why don't the powers that be allow Irish , Welsh and Scottish players play test cricket together with England like the Lions (rugby) , or the West Indies .
it seams crazy to me that all the good work done by the Irish could be undone, by the loss of our best players.
Wouldn't Wales be ok at the World cup too ?

D3PO · 09-06-2009 11:45am

well technically "England" is England and Wales. The ECB is actually the england and wales cricket board.

besides which England are basically the equivelent of the lions. they take our best players anyway and there is no scottish or welsh players good enough right now.

then throw in the danish, pakistani, south african and australian players all lineing out for england at the moment aswell.

its actually a world eleven !!

d'Oracle · 09-06-2009 11:59am

The last thing we need is another "Lions".

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-06-2009 5:53pm

D3PO wrote: »

well technically "England" is England and Wales. The ECB is actually the england and wales cricket board.

besides which England are basically the equivelent of the lions. they take our best players anyway and there is no scottish or welsh players good enough right now.

then throw in the danish, pakistani, south african and australian players all lineing out for england at the moment aswell.

its actually a world eleven !!

What Pakistani cricketer would that be? The one born in Bradford?

Just as a side issue, here are the birthplace of a few of Ireland's own.

Jeremy Bray - Sydney
Andre Botha - Johannesburg
Trent Johnston - Wollagong
Regan West - New Plymouth (New Zealand):rolleyes:

D3PO · 09-06-2009 6:38pm

dooferoaks wrote: »

What Pakistani cricketer would that be? The one born in Bradford?

no the one born in Karachi :rolleyes:

geography lesson for you bradford is in yorkshire :rolleyes:

if your going to try and be a smartass at least have your facts before you make yourself look silly

D3PO · 09-06-2009 6:40pm

dooferoaks wrote: »

Just as a side issue, here are the birthplace of a few of Ireland's own.

Jeremy Bray - Sydney
Andre Botha - Johannesburg
Trent Johnston - Wollagong
Regan West - New Plymouth (New Zealand):rolleyes:

whats your point ? the thread was about a combined british and irish team. I was just pointing out that already are infact a world select.

d'Oracle · 09-06-2009 6:41pm

dooferoaks wrote: »

What Pakistani cricketer would that be? The one born in Bradford?

Just as a side issue, here are the birthplace of a few of Ireland's own.

Jeremy Bray - Sydney
Andre Botha - Johannesburg
Trent Johnston - Wollagong
Regan West - New Plymouth (New Zealand):rolleyes:

Silly post that.
Comparing a team from a country where the game is a minority sport, to a team from the home of the sport. England dont need to take foreign players, we do.

Also ignoring the point that the England take our players.

Oh and the pakistani Owais Shah (Karachi)

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-06-2009 7:32pm

Re: Bradford. Was thinking of Rashid and stand corrected. I had forgotten Shah was born outside the UK

I don't disagree with point re. Aussie and South African players, though within the rules, they served their residency period, it is not ideal.

My point is why don't you consider someone who has spent 3/4 of their life in a country is not deemed English enough.

I think someone bought up in the UK as a child and played all his cricket in England should be allowed to be considered legitimately playing for his country. In a country as Multi-Cultural as the UK is, millions can trace their heritage back to far flung countries but are fully entitled to play for England.

Whilst he was born in Pakistan, and retains Pakistani heritage, I still think he is as valid an "Englishman" as James Foster.

Do you consider Andrew Symonds English, West Indian or Australian? I presume he should only play for England being born there, or West Indian because thats where one of his parents was from? Not Australia despite spending almost all his life there.

khn10ur3bogzpa · 09-06-2009 7:40pm

This is a pretty philosophical thread.....I thought we were in a cricket boardroom. But I am new here so who knows really

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-06-2009 7:42pm

You get a lot of (too much?) thinking time watching Cricket!

thebaz · 09-06-2009 9:39pm

I think when Ireland or Holland do well in World Cups its brilliant - the game should be open beyond the big 7 or big 8 - its amazing that Ireland do so well without our 2 best players , who left due to the potential of playing test matches (or so I gather) .
Allow them play test cricket, but to keep things interesting allow us smaller nations keep our best -
I would imagine the Cricketing world wants to expand the game beyond the 8 or 9 test playing countries.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-06-2009 9:50pm

Do you mean let the Irish "England" players keep playing one day for Ireland and Test matches for England?

Interesting idea, although the (admittedly slim) chance of winning a trophy, might make them stay with England.

Unfortunately most ideas take an age to happen in cricket unless it benefits the big money men in the game.

India (particularly), Australia and England are the money men in Cricket and the appeal of more Test tours in a busy schedule doesn't appeal to them.

A cricket stadium Ireland could call their own would make the ICC sit up and look.

D3PO · 09-06-2009 11:12pm

dooferoaks wrote: »

A cricket stadium Ireland could call their own would make the ICC sit up and look.

I wouldnt think so. I mean even if we my some miracle won this world cup they wouldnt sit up and look.

This is to me the roadmap and deliverables needed for irelands progression if they want to really fight for a test status at some time in the future.

1. Increase domestic playing numbers

2. Increase number of centrally contracted players

3. Next step would be to have a fully professional Irish county team

4. Next step would be to negotiate with the ECB to allow the Irish county team play in the pro 40, and county championship aswell as the friends provident that we are already in therfore giving Irish cricket a route into first class cricket.

5. Become financially attractive to the ICC i.e more than a handfull of fans at Irish games, negotiate tv deal for Irish internationals

6. Perform at a capable level in ODI & T20 cricket with the larget full test nations

7. Develop 2 plus test ready grounds Dublin and Belfast I suspect

Then and only then will the ICC even consider test status for us and even then I suggest they will turn a blind eye

thebaz · 09-06-2009 11:35pm

dooferoaks wrote: »

Do you mean let the Irish "England" players keep playing one day for Ireland and Test matches for England?
.

thats it - I think its great watching Ireland (and Holland ) - it would be a shame if the feal good factor for Irish cricket , and the potential is lost , if say O'Brien and others keep switching to England - if more go , eventually Ireland will suffer , and we will sadly regress - cricket needs more nations competing

djimi · 12-06-2009 9:40am

Im not sure Id like to see us combine with the ECB tbh. I am a long time follower of England in test cricket, as well as obviously being a big supporter of Ireland in all that we play, but I would not like to see the two teams combine. First of all, it would mean that very few Irish players would actually get to play (England is actually England and Wales, but how many Welsh players come thru to test level; only Simon Jones and Robert Croft spring to mind in recent times). Secondly I feel that the ICC will eventually be forced to start taking the associate members more seriously at some point, especially if the standard of them continues to improve, so even if it takes another 20 years, Id much prefer to wait and see Ireland one day play a test (hopefully against England!) rather than see us integrate with the ECB.

I do agree with the point that Irish players not playing for England should be allowed to play for Ireland. Test cricket, ODIs and Twenty20 need to be seperated out. Ireland are not allowed to play test cricket, so it is entirely understandable that our players would want to play for England if given the chance to play the highest form of the game. IMO tho this should not mean that those players can not be available for Ireland in the forms of the international game in which we do take part. Why not change the rule to say that Irish players can declare for England in test cricket (with the gamble that if Ireland do make it to test status in 4 years they will not be available for selection, which is extremely unlikely), but not in ODIs or Twenty20, so that he could still play for Ireland in all forms of the game in which we play (obviously dependant on county committments). It would mean that players like Joyce, who England pick and then discard, can still be selected for Ireland in ODI cricket.

d'Oracle · 12-06-2009 11:46am

djimi wrote: »

It would mean that players like Joyce, who England pick and then discard, can still be selected for Ireland in ODI cricket.

After 4 years of not playing for England, he can play for Ireland again.
Not really too far off really.

I'm kind of moving off the Ireland Test thing.
Given our bowling problems.

Most of our bowlers are foreign.
Do we have the coaching quality to develop international class bowers?
Its clearly more difficult and coaching intensive than fielding or batting.
And the counties only take players who are already promising. Mostly Batsmen, cos if you have the natural talents and put in the work, you can get there with batting.

Thoughts?

legend73 · 12-06-2009 12:44pm

The answer for Ireland to move off the associates and in to full blown status is very simple.

Leverage the English cricketing system, forget about grass routes. All players should play in the UK, they should be contracted to UK teams. The should only come together for world and Group matches.

That is what the Aussies do in the soccer these days and it has worked to the extent that our players are better for the experience.

You'll find that is how the Kiwi's established themselves in the early days utilising Australia as a base for cricket and the same way many Aussie rugby players head to France/England to play club rugby. The real trick is not to have anyone coming from Nth County or Malahide playing international cricket. You go from dominating to being dominated.

TrueDub · 12-06-2009 1:39pm

legend73 wrote: »

Leverage the English cricketing system, forget about grass routes. All players should play in the UK, they should be contracted to UK teams. The should only come together for world and Group matches.

Then we end up with the situation where players don't play for Ireland, even if they want to, as their employer wants them to play for them, and while the employers obey the letter of the law by releasing them, they privately warn of "selection difficulties" when the player returns.

Currently this happens with our county-based players. If all of our players were involved, we'd only put out an A side most of the time.

legend73 wrote: »

That is what the Aussies do in the soccer these days and it has worked to the extent that our players are better for the experience.

Quite possibly, but look at the unhappiness of managers when players head off mid-season to play the African Nations Cup, or other international tournaments. It would be the same if our players were all contracted to counties.

We'd be better off to have our players contracted to Cricket Ireland, then released to play county cricket, in the same way that the other test-playing nations do. There's one big thing stopping this: money. How do we get money? Become a test-playing nation. How do we do that? Better players. How do we get them? Contracts. Rinse & repeat....

For player development within Ireland, we need an inter-provincial setup. This worked in rugby, and with tweaks we could have a viable setup in cricket. This would provide a "best v best" setup, and we could link with Scotland & Holland to provide a series of meaningful matches.

There are hurdles to this, notably the clubs, and the money culture in certain parts of the island, but if CI want to improve elite playing standards, that's where they need to start...

D3PO · 12-06-2009 2:02pm

TrueDub wrote: »

Then we end up with the situation where players don't play for Ireland, even if they want to, as their employer wants them to play for them, and while the employers obey the letter of the law by releasing them, they privately warn of "selection difficulties" when the player returns.
.

Not such an issue if there is a fully integrated Irish county team playing in the pro 40 and country championship aswell as the friends provident. That removed the selection difficulties equation.

d'Oracle · 12-06-2009 2:25pm

At the risk of sounding dismissive, can we stop talking about rugby and soccer?

Their examples are utter useless.

Rugby is a bigger sport. There are strong traditions in the game. The School Senior cups are Huge.
The AIL is big too.
Provincial rugby was virtually ignored before Professionalism/Heineken cup.
Aussie Rugby have plenty of rugby at home, with clubs, state championships and super 14.

Soccer is a global sport, Massivly exposed, and Aussies have a full professional franchise based soccer league.

Also D3PO, the Pro40 is being disbanded next year, isnt it?

djimi · 12-06-2009 3:01pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

After 4 years of not playing for England, he can play for Ireland again.
Not really too far off really.

Doesnt he have to qualify for Ireland thru residency again? If hes playing full time county cricket then hes not going to be living in Ireland enough days a year for him to qualify.

It would be nice to see a situation where players who qualify for a country thru residency can go back to play for their own country if they are not selected for four years. Wont happen tho...

d'Oracle · 12-06-2009 3:02pm

djimi wrote: »

Doesnt he have to qualify for Ireland thru residency again? If hes playing full time county cricket then hes not going to be living in Ireland enough days a year for him to qualify.

It would be nice to see a situation where players who qualify for a country thru residency can go back to play for their own country if they are not selected for four years. Wont happen tho...

He is from Bray, why would he need residency?

djimi · 12-06-2009 3:04pm

D3PO wrote: »

Not such an issue if there is a fully integrated Irish county team playing in the pro 40 and country championship aswell as the friends provident. That removed the selection difficulties equation.

The problem with having a fully integrated Ireland team in the CC and Pro40 tournament in England is that the ICU would have to pay the players as full professionals, and at the moment I dont think they could afford to pay them a county cricketers wage. Then again, if the ICC would help out the associate members by giving more funding then the small amount they currently receive then maybe that kind of plan would become more feasable.

djimi · 12-06-2009 3:06pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

He is from Bray, why would he need residency?

Because he has declared himself to play for another country. AFAIK thru the eyes of the ICC he is now English, and would have to qualify to play for Ireland thru residency the same way as he had to do to play for England.

d'Oracle · 12-06-2009 3:24pm

Fortunatly not.

Or at least it doesnt look like it.

Born here, played u-19 and Senior International for Ireland.
As long as he hasn't played for a full member in 4 years, he is fair game.

http://icc-cricket.yahoo.net/about-icc/rules-regulations.html

Not confident of that happening though.

D3PO · 12-06-2009 3:30pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Also D3PO, the Pro40 is being disbanded next year, isnt it?

correct disbanded for the EPL I believe. But you get my point Iirsh county team should be part of the first class setup all inclusive

D3PO · 12-06-2009 3:32pm

djimi wrote: »

The problem with having a fully integrated Ireland team in the CC and Pro40 tournament in England is that the ICU would have to pay the players as full professionals, and at the moment I dont think they could afford to pay them a county cricketers wage. Then again, if the ICC would help out the associate members by giving more funding then the small amount they currently receive then maybe that kind of plan would become more feasable.

yes and i did mention earlier in the thread that as a prelude to being a full timesetup we would need to get the ICU to get a better sponsorship deal and tv rights setup to bring in the money to do this.

legend73 · 12-06-2009 3:43pm

I think having a national team in a domestic competition restricts growth. It's a start but inclusivity and diversity is the key to expand talent into class.

But yes all Irish A players should be in the UK with Irish national contracts.

And no we wont stop going on about rugby and soccer. The A grade soccer league in Australia is nothing to cry home about and it failed to deliver any international success - success only came when Aussie players headed to Europe and beyond and came back to international commitments.

Contract them in Ireland, send them out. Build up the reputation of cricket in Ireland to grow the grass roots, integrate that into the UK setup and hey Presto, abracadabra - result, a competitive team playing full status cricket on full time contracts promoting the sport further and building a domestic competition which requires, funding, supporters and young talent being coached and nurtured.

But who cares to be honest. Just roll on the ashses.

d'Oracle · 12-06-2009 4:13pm

legend73 wrote: »

And no we wont stop going on about rugby and soccer. The A grade soccer league in Australia is nothing to cry home about and it failed to deliver any international success - success only came when Aussie players headed to Europe and beyond and came back to international commitments.

OK.

Keep going on about a sport that cannot be compared to cricket in anyway whilst maintaining any credibility.
Its cool, but I suspect that you may have to relinquish your status as Cricket boards spokesman for subject matter in conversations about strategy for improvement in cricket.

Because using soccer or rugby as an example is absurd.

Dozen Wicked Words · 13-06-2009 11:08am

D3PO wrote: »

correct disbanded for the EPL I believe. But you get my point Iirsh county team should be part of the first class setup all inclusive

Would there not still be a problem with Irish players who currently pay for county teams? O'Brien at Northants may not be on a massive contract but would it be more than Ireland could pay him? (I would be sorry to see him go from "my" county(he's not South African which makes a nice change at NCCC))

Im sure Joyce, Morgan and Porterfield are on good contracts at bigger, more successful counties than Northants. So would you still end up with an understrength Ireland team in the EPL as you do in the Friends Provident?

legend73 · 24-06-2009 3:13pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

OK.

Keep going on about a sport that cannot be compared to cricket in anyway whilst maintaining any credibility.
Its cool, but I suspect that you may have to relinquish your status as Cricket boards spokesman for subject matter in conversations about strategy for improvement in cricket.

Because using soccer or rugby as an example is absurd.

Compare it to hockey? Because you have a wooden stick and a ball? I think its absurd that you can't comprehend even the basic concept that a team sport of any description that has a governing body can be compared to another at any level of competition, just wrap your head around the analogy. I think I could compare it to the Jamacian bob sled team or the Irish swim team if I had to and at the minute that about sums up Irish cricket - bottom of the food chain, rudderless, lacking the infrastructure, the money and the passion of the country.

Ask the average Irishman what cricket is and he will say (just asked a guy at work) 1st he said - cricket is boring, 2nd thing he said only prodestants play it.

idea !

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