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AXA cancelled my policy over LPG

  • 27-10-2012 3:02pm
    #1
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    I recently converted my car to LPG with VV-Tech, lpg.ie in Kilcullen and they did a great job and I have been saving away a nice share of money on the fuel costs.

    I rang Axa this week to notify them of the conversion for to have it added to the policy and they cancelled my insurance instead. Running a car on LPG makes no difference to engine performance and the car is a dual fuel car which still runs on Petrol at the drivers discretion.

    The insurance from May 2012 to May 2013 was €370 through a broker with Axa and now they have cancelled it despite that the car is now actually safer as it runs on a safer fuel with less explosion risk.

    My broker is now trying to rob me blind wanting to change me to a new policy with Aviva costing €650 per year, the car is worth less than that.

    I wonder what are my options for they cancelling over this "Modification" they are treating this as a Modification even though it makes no difference to the cars performance etc.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,063 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    It's a pure disgrace...

    PS - But I think you exaggerated the fact that car is safer now.


  • #3
    MetzgerMeister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    Did you ask your insurance company about it before you did the conversion or did you read the particulars of your policy beforehand? They obviously had a reason to cancel the policy and I'm sure that if you read the details of it, you'll find it in there somewhere.

    Normally you would expect an insurance company to just ask for a few more quid but I've never heard nor seen a policy being cancelled like that. Also, I doubt the car is "safer" as you claim as you now have 2 separate fuels and fuel tanks to think about compared to one. The risk when it comes to this and leaks etc. is in effect, doubled.


  • #4
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Why does this country appear to be so firmly opposed to LPG? Mad..


  • #5
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    I did not check with my insurance before converting to LPG, LPG is commonplace in the UK and everything I had read about insurance over there was you just inform the insurance company and they add it to your policy at no extra charge.

    AXA's excuse is that their underwriters refuse to cover it.


  • #6
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Some UK brokers even offer a discount for LPG.


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  • #7
    MetzgerMeister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I did not check with my insurance before converting to LPG, LPG is commonplace in the UK and everything I had read about insurance over there was you just inform the insurance company and they add it to your policy at no extra charge.

    AXA's excuse is that their underwriters refuse to cover it.

    To be honest, and I mean no disrespect by this but I think it was a bit foolish of you to go by what happens in the UK instead of researching the way it works here, in the country in which you live and are driving the car.


  • #8
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Chartis and First Ireland (broker) were very nice about my LPG conversion as long as it was professionally installed (which it was).


  • #9
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,063 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    To be honest, and I mean no disrespect by this but I think it was a bit foolish of you to go by what happens in the UK instead of researching the way it works here, in the country in which you live and are driving the car.

    I bet someone who never lived in Ireland before would ever think that installing LPG could have any implications on insurance, neither about the fact that you have to inform your insurance company that you converted your car to use LPG.


  • #10
    Nataly Enough Wart
    Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭ Nataly Enough Wart


    2 fuel tanks instead of one, I don't know anything about lpg but presume its tank is pressurized?

    You would imagine it would cost more to insure.


  • #11
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,063 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Carlos Big Underpass wrote: »
    2 fuel tanks instead of one, I don't know anything about lpg but presume its tank is pressurized?

    You would imagine it would cost more to insure.

    Yes - tank is pressurized, but it would have to be really severe accident to make this tank unseal or explode.


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  • #12
    bazz26
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,282 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    CiniO wrote: »
    I bet someone who never lived in Ireland before would ever think that installing LPG could have any implications on insurance, neither about the fact that you have to inform your insurance company that you converted your car to use LPG.

    That is more reason to research it before hand, don't assume because it is ok at home that it will be the same in another country. LPG converted cars are not very common here or are the companies that do it so common sense would dictate that there is more to it given the savings that can be made on fuel. Insurance cover is obviously one of the reason why.

    I just don't see a way out for the OP unless he pays the higher premium.


  • #13
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,063 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    bazz26 wrote: »
    That is more reason to research it before hand, don't assume because it is ok at home that it will be the same in another country.

    Problem with assuming something and doing research, is that before you do any research, you must have at least a tiny bit of doubt that something works different than you thought.
    Otherwise nothing is going to ignite the idea of doing any research.


  • #14
    djimi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    CiniO wrote: »
    I bet someone who never lived in Ireland before would ever think that installing LPG could have any implications on insurance, neither about the fact that you have to inform your insurance company that you converted your car to use LPG.

    You never assume anything when it comes to insurance companies. Its gotten to the stage where Id nearly run it by them if I wanted to change the radio, let alone a modification as big as converting to LPG. Its a pretty big modification to be fair; I dont know why somoene wouldnt think that the insurance would be interested to know about it?


  • #15
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,063 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    djimi wrote: »
    You never assume anything when it comes to insurance companies. Its gotten to the stage where Id nearly run it by them if I wanted to change the radio, let alone a modification as big as converting to LPG. Its a pretty big modification to be fair; I dont know why somoene wouldnt think that the insurance would be interested to know about it?

    I know it now.
    I didn't know it when I moved to Ireland.

    Beforehand, I would never think that insurance company might be interested in any modifications at all.


  • #16
    djimi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    I dont know how it works anywhere else, but to me its just plain common sense to assume that an insurance company will want to know about anything that changes the particulars/and or the risk of a certain car. In the case of the OP the car they are now driving is not the car that they originally insured.


  • #17
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,063 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    djimi wrote: »
    I dont know how it works anywhere else, but to me its just plain common sense to assume that an insurance company will want to know about anything that changes the particulars/and or the risk of a certain car. In the case of the OP the car they are now driving is not the car that they originally insured.

    Believe me it's not your common sence.
    It's your experience and knowledge how insurance system here works that tell you this.


  • #18
    MetzgerMeister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    When it comes to making a claim, a lot of insurance companies will and do find any way not to pay out. If changing from runflats to normal tyres is considered a modification according to insurance companies (and yes, it is) then I would certainly think that an LPG tank would be along with being a huge get-out clause for the insurance company if it ever came to the OP making a claim.


  • #19
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    When it comes to making a claim, a lot of insurance companies will and do find any way not to pay out. If changing from runflats to normal tyres is considered a modification according to insurance companies (and yes, it is) then I would certainly think that an LPG tank would be along with being a huge get-out clause for the insurance company if it ever came to the OP making a claim.

    Which was why I informed them, I was expecting something more along the lines of them asking to see the paperwork supplied by VV-Tech or at the worst case some sort of independent engineers assessment. I was not expecting them to actually cancel the policy because it is running on LPG. I was with Quinn-Driect now Liberty Insurance since 2006 but switched over to AXA through a broker because they were cheaper this year as Liberty hiked their prices. Liberty does cover LPG but does it on a case by case basis as I was speaking to them today.

    I was hesitant to switch to Axa this year as they are notorious scumbags and they refused point blank to pay out a travel insurance claim I tried to make last year off a travel insurance policy I had with them.

    Never again till my dying day would I have anything to do with Axa after this, even if they gave me insurance for 99c I'd tell them where to shove it.


  • #20
    MetzgerMeister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    They only insure LPG on a case by case basis? Does that depend on whether or not the installation was done properly?

    I do feel for you but you really should have checked beforehand whether or not your current insurers would cover LPG and if not, which ones would. As you may know, people are asking their insurers how a remap would affect their policy so it's common sense to check first, then go ahead with it.

    As Matt Simis said, speak to First Ireland. I've been with them for years and every year I've been very happy with my renewal quotes (although that didn't stop me trying to get more off :P )

    I hope you get sorted and get sorted soon!


  • #21
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    They only insure LPG on a case by case basis? Does that depend on whether or not the installation was done properly?

    I do feel for you but you really should have checked beforehand whether or not your current insurers would cover LPG and if not, which ones would. As you may know, people are asking their insurers how a remap would affect their policy so it's common sense to check first, then go ahead with it.

    As Matt Simis said, speak to First Ireland. I've been with them for years and every year I've been very happy with my renewal quotes (although that didn't stop me trying to get more off :P )

    I hope you get sorted and get sorted soon!

    Well, I told Liberty about how Axa was cancelling my own policy and Liberty said their own underwriters would have to make the final decision also, but that they generally do cover LPG but because of my circumstances they'd be approaching it differently.


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  • #22
    Bobo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Bobo78


    In Ireland it's more like your insurance company owns your car and not you.
    On the continent it's very normal thing to have car converted to LPG and no one makes a big deal out of it like insurance companies do in Ireland. :rolleyes:
    But I guess they will go to great length just to be able to squeeze more money out of you or to make an excuse not to pay out for a claim if they can.


  • #23
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Chartis and First Ireland (broker) were very nice about my LPG conversion as long as it was professionally installed (which it was).

    Someone buy this man a pint please. Fair play to you and thanks very much for this post. I contacted First Ireland today and have arranged insurance with them for the year. The price quoted was very good and they are a great company to deal with. Basically it doesn't put me anything extra out of pocket it just means I am renewing my insurance earlier because of AXA cancelling on me, and the refund for the remaining months from AXA will balance this out.

    AXA created a fair mess but I have a happy ending, sad news is I may have to cancel Christmas as my Insurance and Motor Tax are both due now this month when normally I space them 6 months apart to lessen the pain. I might tax the car for 6 months instead to spread the load rather than max-out the credit card. :D

    Thanks again Matt, your a lifesaver.


  • #24
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Yeah, have to say having dealt with FI recently for classic insurance I found them to be very helpful and efficient.


  • #25
    bigroad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭bigroad


    Volvo was producing the ,s60 and s80 with their own lpg duel fuel system .Wouldnt it be interesting to get a quote on that particular model.I think they were a 2400cc engine.For instance do axa not accept after market conversions.I will try and get a quote and let yea know.


  • #26
    LPGParkLane
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭LPGParkLane


    Hi:)
    AXA might have cancelled insurance policy just to be on a safe side:) currently in Republic you only need to be a certified gas installer
    to install domestic and commercial (read fixed)gas/LPG appliances or equipment. But not car systems :))
    Responsible installers will have done training courses by either manufacturer or distributor of LPG kits and can prove that ,as well as being able to provide relevant paperwork for the kits (CE certs ,EU type approval etc).
    An insurance company shouldn't be able to refuse insurance cover on a ground of modifications ,as installs of LPG are covered by NCT procedures .Info http://www.ncts.ie/pdf/NCT%20Manual%20Revise%20May%202012.pdf. If car got an nct cert it is road legal meaning there is no illegal /dangerous/unsafe etc mods to it. just for nice example
    car with NOs (pressurized gas canister i.e "go-go gas") system will fail an NCT even if there no other faults. NOs canister is regarded as an " Unsuitable fuel tank." Quote :" If a vehicle is presented with a Nitrous Oxide (NO2) injection system fitted, it should be failed under Reason For Failure (4) above." Rather confusing as Nitrox(NOS) is not a fuel ,merely being a strong oxidising agent added to intake air to raise oxygen level in air intake .Power boost comes as extra O2 in air intake allows for extra fuel to be injected resulting in power increase(torque and BHP).


  • #27
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    LPGParkLane wrote: »
    Hi:)
    AXA might have cancelled insurance policy just to be on a safe side:) currently in Republic you only need to be a certified gas installer
    to install domestic and commercial (read fixed)gas/LPG appliances or equipment. But not car systems :))
    Responsible installers will have done training courses by either manufacturer or distributor of LPG kits and can prove that ,as well as being able to provide relevant paperwork for the kits (CE certs ,EU type approval etc).
    An insurance company shouldn't be able to refuse insurance cover on a ground of modifications ,as installs of LPG are covered by NCT procedures .Info http://www.ncts.ie/pdf/NCT%20Manual%20Revise%20May%202012.pdf. If car got an nct cert it is road legal meaning there is no illegal /dangerous/unsafe etc mods to it. just for nice example
    car with NOs (pressurized gas canister i.e "go-go gas") system will fail an NCT even if there no other faults. NOs canister is regarded as an " Unsuitable fuel tank." Quote :" If a vehicle is presented with a Nitrous Oxide (NO2) injection system fitted, it should be failed under Reason For Failure (4) above." Rather confusing as Nitrox(NOS) is not a fuel ,merely being a strong oxidising agent added to intake air to raise oxygen level in air intake .Power boost comes as extra O2 in air intake allows for extra fuel to be injected resulting in power increase(torque and BHP).


    I think you are getting LPG confused with Nitrus Oxide which I know very little about other than seeing it in the Fast & Furious films. My own install was done by VV-Tech Lpg in Kildare and they provided me with the relevant paperwork and I could understand if I had bought a kit off eBay and installed it myself but I got it done professionally by this company who are also members of the ILPGA (Irish Liquid Petroleum Gas Association) so in terms it getting professional people to do it properly I had that base very much covered.

    It was less about the "Modification" and more about the broker and AXA trying to rip me off using LPG as an excuse.


  • #28
    LPGParkLane
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭LPGParkLane


    No,defo not confused,in previous post i cited NOx as an example of a mod which will result in Nct fail in any case. simple reason is that the NOx system gas bottle( deemed to be fuel tank,pressurized) is fitted usually openly placed inside passenger compartment ,within easy reach of a driver(need to open NOS Bottle valve by hand) and as such is contrary to Nct requirement on following:
    4 Unsuitable fuel tank.
    5 LPG/CNG tank fitted inside vehicle without being
    sub- compartmented or without having valves piped to the outside.
    10 Possibility of fuel lines being crushed, chafed, ruptured or subject to excessive vibration.

    And as for Lpg ,I drive 02 kia Carens 1.8 on Lpg with 55 ltr tank and Stag 300-4 (4th Gen sequential system) , and DIESEL A170 merc with ( Supplementary ) LPG fitted:)


  • #29
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,480 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


      Axa policy document....

      4 Changes to your policy

      You must tell us immediately about any:
      • change of car or any other vehicle you buy or take ownership of;
      • convictions, prosecutions or any penalty points which apply to you or any other driver of your car;
      • change in the driver’s health, address or job;
      • modifications or alterations to your vehicle including, but not limited to, air induction kits and filters, lower suspension, change to the exhaust, engine maintenance computers or adding of body parts whether these changes were present when you purchased the car or not;
      • change of address;
      • change in use or in the main user; or
      • other important change.

      We may charge an additional premium for these changes and we have the right to consent or decline these changes.

      Obviously they decide what constitutes an 'other important change'.

      I can't understand what Axa mean by claiming that their 'underwriters' won't cover LPG, isn't Axa an insurance company and don't they cover the risk? Otherwise they are admitting that they are nothing more than a glorified insurance broker.


    • #30
      MugMugs
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


      MetzgerMeister wrote: »
      When it comes to making a claim, a lot of insurance companies will and do find any way not to pay out. If changing from runflats to normal tyres is considered a modification according to insurance companies (and yes, it is) then I would certainly think that an LPG tank would be along with being a huge get-out clause for the insurance company if it ever came to the OP making a claim.
      Not really..... The question would be asked, "was the fuel type relevant to the accident circumstances and or a cause of the same...." before a decline could be successfully run.


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    • #31
      LPGParkLane
      Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭LPGParkLane


      Yep ..sad reality ( `cos we can means we will( ripp u off) )
      however it is possible to argue with them on following points:
      modifications or alterations to your vehicle including, but not limited to, air induction kits and filters, change to the exhaust, engine maintenance computers whether these changes were present when you purchased the car or not;(removed N/A parts )

      LPG kits utilize existing manufacturers air intake and exhaust parts , and run in parallel(not affecting functionality of) with cars engine management computer using their own computer and fueling system parts.In practice this allows for car to be run on petrol only,Lpg only, or Both in sequence(petrol start followed by gas run or LPG 80%and petrol 20% at the same time,latter used on some Vw group TSI/TFSI engines). As such ,the driver is the one able to run a car in the way he/she chooses including not using LPG at all:) .LPG is supplementary ,standalone ,parallel system and not a modification to factory fitted system. As for power output i `ll cite a Volvo S40 Bi-fuel (factory fitted) , It has 2 BHP lower output from 1.8 Liter engine when powered by LPG so no performance mod here:).Tanks for LPG are manufactured to strict EU/TUV/EN etc standards and not an additional risk if properly fitted (checked by NCT) and as to them taking place of a spare wheel --- there cars on sale in Ireland with no spare wheel at all(hermetic +small air pump).

      As for other important change ---- well read above:(


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