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Further Part 4 tenancy

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  • 15-01-2017 10:53am
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭


    Under the new rules, if a tenant decides to remain in a property under a further part 4 tenancy, and if the rent hasn't been increased in the last 4 years, how much of an increase in rent can be applied by the landlord and what notice must be given.

    Thanks,
    Bumpsy.


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    #2
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/rent-reviews

    It will depend if in a rent control area or not.

    If in a rent control area, then a maximum increase of 4%, with a minimum of 90 days notice.


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/rent-reviews

    It will depend if in a rent control area or not.

    If in a rent control area, then a maximum increase of 4%, with a minimum of 90 days notice.
    But surely that only applies to existing tenancies, surely the start of a new part 4 tenancy allows immediate imposition of the reviewed rent? Within the allowed % increase?
    And yes it is in the rent control area.


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    #4
    Denny_Crane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Denny_Crane


    Howdy Bumpsy,

    Discussion in Legal Discussions that might be of interest to you:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057686033

    I believe the counter argument to your point above would be you could have terminated the tenancy but you did not, therefore as it's the same tenants the review rules apply. I'm open to correction of course, still wrapping my head around the amendments myself.


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    #5
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But surely that only applies to existing tenancies, surely the start of a new part 4 tenancy allows immediate imposition of the reviewed rent? Within the allowed % increase?
    And yes it is in the rent control area.

    You said "if the tenant remains", so there is obviously an existing tenancy. So, if there is an existing tenancy, no matter how long it is, rent can only be increased to a maximum of 4%.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    You said "if the tenant remains", so there is obviously an existing tenancy. So, if there is an existing tenancy, no matter how long it is, rent can only be increased to a maximum of 4%.

    Really this is of academic interest really, as the amount involved is 4% for 3 months at most.

    But surely the part 4 tenancy ends when it ends and the tenant has to give notice they want to continue, which would commence a new tenancy, which the landlord accepts or rejects?

    Otherwise surely they are assumed to be vacating?


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Denny_Crane wrote: »
    Howdy Bumpsy,

    Discussion in Legal Discussions that might be of interest to you:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057686033

    I believe the counter argument to your point above would be you could have terminated the tenancy but you did not, therefore as it's the same tenants the review rules apply. I'm open to correction of course, still wrapping my head around the amendments myself.
    Thanks for the link pretty heavy stuff for the layman.

    But surely a part 4 tenancy ends after 4 years? No one needs to end it as it has a fixed 4 year term (for existing part 4 tenancies) and ends on the appropriate date automatically?


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    You said "if the tenant remains", so there is obviously an existing tenancy. So, if there is an existing tenancy, no matter how long it is, rent can only be increased to a maximum of 4%.
    Ah yeah, absolutely no ambiguity about that.

    I really just want to confirm in my head what happens at the end of a part 4 if neither the landlord or tenant has done anything.

    Surely the tenancy is over and that's it and if agreeable the tenant can leave or start a new tenancy with a new rent subject to allowable increase limits. So in this case it's a new part 4 tenancy and no notice of increase required?


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    #9
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I really just want to confirm in my head what happens at the end of a part 4 if neither the landlord or tenant has done anything.

    Surely the tenancy is over and that's it and if agreeable the tenant can leave or start a new tenancy with a new rent subject to allowable increase limits. So in this case it's a new part 4 tenancy and no notice of increase required?

    While it starts a new part 4 tenancy, it is the same tenancy - same tenant, same landlord. Even if it was a new tenant, the rent cannot be set at more than 4% of the previous rent rate, if the unit was let within the previous 2 years.

    It's all specified on the RTB website, calculator and all.


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    #10
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    On that, you'd need to consult a solicitor and/or the RTB. But, from my reading of the law, the rent increase does not come in until after the new law came in to effect. I could be wrong on that though.

    Of course, that increase would have been limited by the previous law, on rent reviews limited to every 2 years.


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    While it starts a new part 4 tenancy, it is the same tenancy - same tenant, same landlord. Even if it was a new tenant, the rent cannot be set at more than 4% of the previous rent rate, if the unit was let within the previous 2 years.

    It's all specified on the RTB website, calculator and all.
    Thanks for your answer but on the following page http://www.rtb.ie/landlords/helpful-info-documents

    There is the following:
    "At the end of the 4-year period, the tenancy is deemed terminated and a new tenancy comes into being where the dwelling continues to be let to the same tenant(s). This new tenancy is known a 'further Part 4 tenancy' and, if not terminated by the landlord within the following 6 months, may only be terminated during the remainder of the successive four years where one of the grounds in the Table to section 34 arises, or an actionable breach of obligations."


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    #12
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thanks for your answer but on the following page http://www.rtb.ie/landlords/helpful-info-documents

    There is the following:
    "At the end of the 4-year period, the tenancy is deemed terminated and a new tenancy comes into being where the dwelling continues to be let to the same tenant(s). This new tenancy is known a 'further Part 4 tenancy' and, if not terminated by the landlord within the following 6 months, may only be terminated during the remainder of the successive four years where one of the grounds in the Table to section 34 arises, or an actionable breach of obligations."

    Which confirms my statement that rent cannot be increased over the maximum of 4%.


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    Which confirms my statement that rent cannot be increased over the maximum of 4%.
    yeah I'm not questioning that at all, as I've already stated above.

    What I'm asking is if the tenancy has ended surely there is no notice period for the increase or in fact for the tenant to vacate the premises?


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    #14
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What I'm asking is if the tenancy has ended surely there is no notice period for the increase or in fact for the tenant to vacate the premises?

    My understanding is that because the tenant and landlord are the same, the normal rules would apply to a rent increase - normal notice period and such. The "further part 4" does not mean that everything starts again from day 1, but continues in to year 5. The wording is "shall continue in being", from http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/45/enacted/en/html

    So, the notice period, by either party, would be 12 weeks (84 days). (Being a tenant for 4 years or more).


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    #15
    syndrome777
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭syndrome777


    Deleted User wrote: »
    yeah I'm not questioning that at all, as I've already stated above.

    What I'm asking is if the tenancy has ended surely there is no notice period for the increase or in fact for the tenant to vacate the premises?

    what do you mean by ended?
    did tenants gave you the notice that they will leave? or did you serve it to them?

    or are you just quoting the law "At the end of the 4-year period"...as this actually changes nothing, about the rent increase or the notice period


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    My understanding is that because the tenant and landlord are the same, the normal rules would apply to a rent increase - normal notice period and such. The "further part 4" does not mean that everything starts again from day 1, but continues in to year 5. The wording is "shall continue in being", from http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/45/enacted/en/html

    So, the notice period, by either party, would be 12 weeks (84 days). (Being a tenant for 4 years or more).
    See this to me makes sense, so I think the wording on the RTB site as I quoted a few posts ago is at best imprecise.

    Thanks again for your replies, they were very helpful.


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Paulw wrote: »
    On that, you'd need to consult a solicitor and/or the RTB. But, from my reading of the law, the rent increase does not come in until after the new law came in to effect. I could be wrong on that though.

    Of course, that increase would have been limited by the previous law, on rent reviews limited to every 2 years.

    If a valid notice is issued prior to the new law coming into effect I'm almost certain the new rules do not apply even if the actual increase in rent occurs after the law as come into effect. Hence the rush of people issuing notice in December to get in before the law.


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    #18
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Really this is of academic interest really, as the amount involved is 4% for 3 months at most.

    But surely the part 4 tenancy ends when it ends and the tenant has to give notice they want to continue, which would commence a new tenancy, which the landlord accepts or rejects?

    Otherwise surely they are assumed to be vacating?

    Why 4% for 3 months at most?


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    davindub wrote: »
    Why 4% for 3 months at most?
    max increase 4% with 90 days notice for an existing tenancy new tenancy could have 4% increase from day 1.


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    #20
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    max increase 4% with 90 days notice for an existing tenancy new tenancy could have 4% increase from day 1.

    You need to give 112 days notice to end a tenancy of 4 years duration. But look, it would be a horrible thing to get rid of tenants for the sake of applying rent increases a little earlier?


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    #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    davindub wrote: »
    You need to give 112 days notice to end a tenancy of 4 years duration. But look, it would be a horrible thing to get rid of tenants for the sake of applying rent increases a little earlier?

    Nah wouldn't do that anyway, was just looking for clarification on the status of a further part 4 tenancy.


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    #22
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Nah wouldn't do that anyway, was just looking for clarification on the status of a further part 4 tenancy.

    Good to hear:)


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