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Lisbon Treaty Referendum 2 - Return of the Gombeen Man
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Our problem is really more that virtually none of our No posters seem willing to put forward any ideas on the renegotiation.
cordially,
Scofflaw
How about no further negotiation? How about some people (avoids "WE"
) think that too many powers are been handed to Europe and enough is enough. Why is the only option further integration?
If the current E.U is unworkable then lets roll it back to simpler version and take some of the powers back out of its over-worked hands.
As for a two tier E.U if that's the alternative fair enough. People keep going on about how we wont be involved in decisions. Oh horror, then we simly get to make our own decision on the subject as we won't be under the E.U's jurisdiction on the subject. Something most No voters wanted in the first place (Not to hand over more power). So what's the problem with that?
I've never knocked the idea. Actually it makes sense. Leave us with extra independence while those that would rather more rule from brussells carry on.
p.s sorry I tend to end up quoting you more often than not scofflaw its not that I have a personal vendetta! Honest! 0 -
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To be fair, I feel that the threads are fairly balanced in terms of No/Yes posters - indeed, the reason you can highlight 3 of us in particular is due to the reasonably small number of Yes posters. In turn, the reason you would usually get a response from more than one of us is because far from being a bully-pack we're entirely separate. As to the speed of response - I'm self-employed, I'm in front of a computer most of the day, and this is my main form of work-avoidance. I can't answer for anyone else.
I'm not sure what one does to make No posters feel less intimidated - stop posting, perhaps? There's certainly no intent to intimidate anyone, although possibly the legacy of the referendum is a somewhat combative stance.
cordially,
Scofflaw
I've stopped getting too involved in any discussion
a) I don't have the time to spend all day on here and all I'm doing is repeating myself or my posts/being ridiculed because you can't come up with any better argument - I'm just not going to waste my time! Of course the unbalanced moderatorship does not help either - there is no moderator who voted No (no doubt I'll get a bad mark/slap for that comment).
b) You are all very adapt at ignoring posts that don't agree with your own argument (which really amuses me).
In short - I know you 'Yes' camp here will win all debates on this forum (just like I know on p.ie the 'No' camp will win all debates) - not because of the quality of your argument, but simply because you put more time and have more practice than the rest of us.0 -
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Hilarious. Care to point some out?thehighground wrote: »b) You are all very adapt at ignoring posts that don't agree with your own argument (which really amuses me).
Yup:...could you define a Euroskeptic?
There you go.I ... don't want further integration. Infact I'd be happy to allow the E.U to reduce it's powers...0 -
Nice of you to edit my statement in your quote As I said I'd accept moving backwards BECAUSE the E.U has said the current situation is unworkable and I dont want further integration.
So are you saying, hypothetically if a European superstate was suggested anyone voting no is just a crazy Euro-skeptic? Or is there a line where my concerns of further (not any) integration become acceptable?0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »Hilarious. Care to point some out?
.
1. Someone posted last week a fairly comprehensive breakdown and costing of Irish fisheries. The most avoided thread on boards.ie Its so buried now, I can't find it
2. I posted a link to an article (from tribune.ie) which stated that there was a fair bit of concern among business people about Ireland being able to hold onto its low corporation tax rate. Scofflaw - having argued quite strongly that this was not an issue to be concerned with, ignored it completely
'Reports that French officials will be prepared to offer concessions, including an Irish commissioner and restating protocols on touc-stone issues here such as neutrality and abortion have been aired. But the CCCTB is an acronym still little heard even though, privately, the Irish Bankers Federation and some sections of Ibec, the employers' organisation, describe the plans as the single largest threat to Irish prosperity and the 12.5% corporation tax rate that has anchored that prosperity here during the past decade.'
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/jul/20/lisbon-sides-should-tell-sarkozy-non-to-common-tax/
3. I personally was ridiculed when things weren't going the way some would want around here - post 161 & 2 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055317435&highlight=thehighground&page=11
4. Other amusing ignore was someone argued quite strongly that RTE were not credible, (offering the New York Times as being more credible) when they said that the Russians were unhappy with France/Sarkozy as negotiator between Russia & Georgia. RTE were the only media that reported it correctly. Fairplay RTE!
Is that enough for you to be going on with?0 -
How about no further negotiation? How about some people (avoids "WE" ) think that too many powers are been handed to Europe and enough is enough. Why is the only option further integration?
It isn't, by any means! I don't see anything weird about the suggestion that powers should be removed from the EU if they're better handled at national level - I'd like to see the same approach to local powers, come to that. As I've said elsewhere, it's only a framework for joint action.
However, I do think we'd have to ask ourselves how we determine whether something is better handled at national or EU level. I suspect a lot of posters would simply say that everything is better handled at the national level, which is a position I would probably discount, based entirely as it seems to me to be on ideological nationalism.
If the argument is that the EU lacks proper democratic accountability, then that is a case for improving the democratic accountability of the EU, not for simply stripping it of powers - because if things are better handled at the EU level, then better-handled-plus-accountable beats accountable.
Mind you, the party system in the Dáil, and particularly the Whip system, has almost entirely destroyed local representative democracy, yet I don't hear any calls for the dissolution of parties.If the current E.U is unworkable then lets roll it back to simpler version and take some of the powers back out of its over-worked hands.
As above. That depends on why it unworkable, and how it can be fixed - and most of the issues in question had fixes in the Lisbon Treaty.As for a two tier E.U if that's the alternative fair enough. People keep going on about how we wont be involved in decisions. Oh horror, then we simly get to make our own decision on the subject as we won't be under the E.U's jurisdiction on the subject. Something most No voters wanted in the first place (Not to hand over more power). So what's the problem with that?
Essentially, because that's not how it works. Even EFTA countries are bound to follow the EU's rules in much of their legislation. The Norwegians described it as "fax diplomacy" - waiting by the fax machine to learn what laws they had to make. SO even in the second tier of a two-tier EU, we are almost certainly going to have to abide by the same EU regulations, while having less say in them. After all, the vast majority of EU legislation is concerned with the common market.I've never knocked the idea. Actually it makes sense. Leave us with extra independence while those that would rather more rule from brussells carry on.
Obeying rules while having no say in them is not extra independence by any stretch of definition.p.s sorry I tend to end up quoting you more often than not scofflaw its not that I have a personal vendetta! Honest!
Heck, I take it as a compliment. Possibly, again, presumptuously...
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Your position is basically Euroskeptic. A non-Euroskeptic is someone who is broadly pleased with the process of European integration to date, and would like to see the process continue.Nice of you to edit my statement in your quote
I didn't use the word crazy. And no, that's not what I'm saying.So are you saying, hypothetically if a European superstate was suggested anyone voting no is just a crazy Euro-skeptic?
Yes: the point at which you don't want to reverse the process of integration to date, and are open to the idea of further integration.Or is there a line where my concerns of further (not any) integration become acceptable?0 -
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The last post on that thread, as I recall, was a question about the validity of the calculations, which remained unanswered. I'm open to correction.thehighground wrote: »1. Someone posted last week a fairly comprehensive breakdown and costing of Irish fisheries. The most avoided thread on boards.ie Its so buried now, I can't find it
I'll let Scofflaw answer that, but what did you expect him (or anyone else) to do: deny that some people are concerned? Some people are concerned about conscription too, doesn't mean it's going to happen.2. I posted a link to an article (from tribune.ie) which stated that there was a fair bit of concern among business people about Ireland being able to hold onto its low corporation tax rate. Scofflaw - having argued quite strongly that this was not an issue to be concerned with, ignored it completely
Perhaps people got tired of arguing around in circles with you.3. I personally was ridiculed when things weren't going the way some would want around here - post 161 & 2 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055317435&highlight=thehighground&page=11
I'm sorry, I'm confused. It seems to me that I and others are being accused of ignoring direct questions that don't suit us. If you have examples of direct questions you've asked me or someone else that we've refused to answer, please link to those specific questions. Armwaving about "someone" who argued something about RTE isn't exactly helpful.4. Other amusing ignore was someone argued quite strongly that RTE were not credible, (offering the New York Times as being more credible) when they said that the Russians were unhappy with France/Sarkozy as negotiator between Russia & Georgia. RTE were the only media that reported it correctly. Fairplay RTE!
Is that enough for you to be going on with?0 -
thehighground wrote: »1. Someone posted last week a fairly comprehensive breakdown and costing of Irish fisheries. The most avoided thread on boards.ie Its so buried now, I can't find it
I've been working on a reply to that one since I saw it elsewhere, since it was on the thread I started, after all. At least he did a comprehensive costing, even if some of his assumptions are wrong.thehighground wrote: »2. I posted a link to an article (from tribune.ie) which stated that there was a fair bit of concern among business people about Ireland being able to hold onto its low corporation tax rate. Scofflaw - having argued quite strongly that this was not an issue to be concerned with, ignored it completely
That would be on account of not having seen it, as far as I know. As to the concern - sure, and people are deeply concerned about the LHC ending the world tomorrow morning. It doesn't mean there's anything to be worried about.thehighground wrote: »
'Reports that French officials will be prepared to offer concessions, including an Irish commissioner and restating protocols on touc-stone issues here such as neutrality and abortion have been aired. But the CCCTB is an acronym still little heard even though, privately, the Irish Bankers Federation and some sections of Ibec, the employers' organisation, describe the plans as the single largest threat to Irish prosperity and the 12.5% corporation tax rate that has anchored that prosperity here during the past decade.'
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/jul/20/lisbon-sides-should-tell-sarkozy-non-to-common-tax/
It remains the case that CCCTB and Lisbon are entirely unrelated. CCCTB studies and working groups have been going on for several years, and nothing in Lisbon is required to make CCCTB work. That was what I argued in respect of CCCTB at the time of the referendum, it's what I'm repeating now, and nothing you're offering there changes that point - indeed, you'll note that despite the absence of Lisbon, CCCTB continues to go forward.
Nor is CCCTB related to Irish corporation tax rates. It's an accounting system for companies operating in several states. The EU cannot determine tax rates.thehighground wrote: »3. I personally was ridiculed when things weren't going the way some would want around here - post 161 & 2 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055317435&highlight=thehighground&page=11
That's nowhere near as harsh as some of the things that get said over in the Religion forums.
Still, if we're assuming malice every time someone ignores a post - or a point in a post - by another poster, then we're all very guilty indeed, I think.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
thehighground wrote: »2. I posted a link to an article (from tribune.ie) which stated that there was a fair bit of concern among business people about Ireland being able to hold onto its low corporation tax rate. Scofflaw - having argued quite strongly that this was not an issue to be concerned with, ignored it completely
'Reports that French officials will be prepared to offer concessions, including an Irish commissioner and restating protocols on touc-stone issues here such as neutrality and abortion have been aired. But the CCCTB is an acronym still little heard even though, privately, the Irish Bankers Federation and some sections of Ibec, the employers' organisation, describe the plans as the single largest threat to Irish prosperity and the 12.5% corporation tax rate that has anchored that prosperity here during the past decade.'
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/jul/20/lisbon-sides-should-tell-sarkozy-non-to-common-tax/
I argued against that as well. There is also a fair bit of concern that the world will end at 8am tomorrow. Of course the proponents of both conjectures have no theories that hold up to scrutiny to explain their concerns.thehighground wrote: »3. I personally was ridiculed when things weren't going the way some would want around here - post 161 & 2 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055317435&highlight=thehighground&page=11
I'm sorry you were made fun of for saying our IT industry could be replaced by agriculture and fishing.thehighground wrote: »4. Other amusing ignore was someone argued quite strongly that RTE were not credible, (offering the New York Times as being more credible) when they said that the Russians were unhappy with France/Sarkozy as negotiator between Russia & Georgia. RTE were the only media that reported it correctly. Fairplay RTE!
Is that enough for you to be going on with?
That was me I believe. It's also tenuously related to the Lisbon treaty at best. Russia accepted the ceasefire deal Sarkozy offered on behalf of the EU. In fact negotiations are still ongoing. If the New York Times is not enough sources for you, here are a few more.
'Sarkozy Scored a Minor Victory in Moscow'
Russia and GeorgiaCalling a halt
Georgia: Too Soon to Celebrate?
Georgia crisis: ceasefire talks begin in Moscow
Peacemaker Sarkozy in mission to Moscow0 -
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