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What if we voted no to Lisbon again?

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  • 22-12-2008 3:03pm
    #1
    JackieChan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭


    I know it's not till the backend of next year but what are the consequences if Ireland votes no to Lisbon again. Perhaps by an even larger percentage.

    It's hard to see how the could make some small changes and request a 3rd referendum...even Robert Mugabe wouldn't have the neck to try that.

    Would there be real questions about are place within Europe?

    I have no real insight but interested to hear others views.


«134567

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    #2
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,437 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    For a sickly legal point of view thing just carry on as they are now.

    Nice, maastricht ,..etc..etc.. are still in force.


    It does however cause problems for any plans for adding new members.


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    #3
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Here you can find a UCD Dublin European Institute report on many possible scenarios for Ireland future relationship with Europe.

    http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf


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    #4
    VoidStarNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭VoidStarNull


    I think trying again with Lisbon would be seen as a waste of time under those circumstances, even by those who support the treaty.

    Members who want closer union would have to figure out a different way to achieve it. One possibility would be to set up parallel structures, i.e. the existing structures remain in place alongside new structures that willing members can subscribe to. But that would be very cumbersome, especially if it is done just for the sake of a single member (Ireland).

    A more practical solution would be for Ireland to take on semi-detached status and allow the rest to go ahead with closer integration. Possibly some others such as the UK would push for this as they would also seek semi-detached status for themselves. Legally Ireland could try block this approach as no-one can be involuntarily ejected from the EU. However it would be a bit like grabbing the ball at a football match and refusing to play - ultimately, the others don't have to play either.


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    #5
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    JackieChan wrote: »
    I know it's not till the backend of next year but what are the consequences if Ireland votes no to Lisbon again. Perhaps by an even larger percentage.

    This recession will turn into a depression


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    #6
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    sink wrote: »
    Here you can find a UCD Dublin European Institute report on many possible scenarios for Ireland future relationship with Europe.

    http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf

    thank you for posting the link, it made for a disturbing read :(


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    #7
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Reading that PDF now - interesting stuff, ta sink - one phrase has really jumped out at me: "The EU system works on the basis of ‘give and take’ and compromise in pursuit of consensus."

    Reading much of the "No" rhetoric here, I keep detecting a subtext of "why should we give? why should we compromise?" - an attitude that I find puzzling in any area of life.


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    #8
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    Agree with oscarBravo here. The No sid have completely misrepresented ow business works in the EU. Ganley et al constantly told us how we would be sitting ducks if we voted Yes because because we'd lose a few vetos. But the EU does not work by everyone vetoing each other all the time; if it did, nothing would ever get done. I think we used our veto once in the last 20 years. Goodwill gets you much further. Absolutely nothing is achieved in the EU without compromise, and you can gain more from a compromise if you have a reputation for being a good, enthusiastically pro-EU country which is why we have been batting out of our league for so long.

    Garrett Fitzgerald, a man who has actually represented us and fought for us at a European level (unlike Ganley or anyone on the No side), told us this again and again in the run-up to the referendum.


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    #9
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    its time we put an end to our petulance and got on board with our european neighbours , the recession was the main reason behind the NO vote , people decided to lash out because they were pissed off but the recesion is global and being continously intransigent wont help us , were starting to look like an obnoxious teenager who cant be told what to do and would rather be an arsehole than get with the programe


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    #10
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,437 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    irish_bob wrote: »
    its time we put an end to our petulance and got on board with our european neighbours , the recession was the main reason behind the NO vote , people decided to lash out because they were pissed off but the recesion is global and being continously intransigent wont help us , were starting to look like an obnoxious teenager who cant be told what to do and would rather be an arsehole than get with the programe


    What does this have to do with this thread ?


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    #11
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    irish_bob wrote: »
    its time we put an end to our petulance and got on board with our european neighbours , the recession was the main reason behind the NO vote , people decided to lash out because they were pissed off but the recesion is global and being continously intransigent wont help us , were starting to look like an obnoxious teenager who cant be told what to do and would rather be an arsehole than get with the programe

    the recession hit hardest after the last referendum (back in june it was a thundercloud on the horizon that i warned about here)

    just look at newspaper headlines this autumn

    since then out government had to go hat in hand to the EU to get money to pay the fat inefficient public employees (yes i am bitter about the public sector) and balance the budget, thank good we have EU to fall back on, look at what happened to another small country island in the Atlantic whose name starts with an I as well (who have alot of fish resources and had a credit fueled orgy), yes thats right Iceland went bankrupt

    think twice about what would be the result of another No vote


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    #12
    cozmik
    Closed Accounts Posts: 984 ✭✭✭cozmik


    Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?


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    #13
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    cozmik wrote: »
    Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?
    How on earth can voting be undemocratic? Nobody is forcing you to vote Yes this time. Nor are they trying to deprive you of a vote.

    The people have spoken, yes. Are they not allowed to speak again?


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    #14
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?
    How on earth can voting be undemocratic? Nobody is forcing you to vote Yes this time. Nor are they trying to deprive you of a vote.

    The people have spoken, yes. Are they not allowed to speak again?

    No, the people have spoken, and now they must sit down and shut up, for fear they might say the wrong thing.

    non aude, abnege, tace,
    Scofflaw


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    #15
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    cozmik wrote: »
    Isn't it undemocratic to be voting again? Haven't the people already spoken?

    so you would rather be left behind by the rest of europe just so the electorate will be ( respected) , get real , in times like this , that kind of high mindedness can be ill afforded , we should be jumping at the chance for another bite at the cherry , the country tried to flush its future down the toilet last june just because the crapper that is the present economy stunk to high heaven


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    #16
    cozmik
    Closed Accounts Posts: 984 ✭✭✭cozmik


    evercloserunion wrote: »

    The people have spoken, yes. Are they not allowed to speak again?

    Why? because we didn't get it "right" the first time? Surely, that is not how democracy functions?


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    #17
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    cozmik wrote: »
    Why? because we didn't get it "right" the first time? Surely, that is not how democracy functions?
    They are allowed to speak again because they are sovereign.


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    #18
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Reading much of the "No" rhetoric here, I keep detecting a subtext of "why should we give? why should we compromise?" - an attitude that I find puzzling in any area of life.

    well why should we compromise ? Its clear that the other side wont by forcing a re-vote and similarly with countries like germany where the populace was supeceeded by the government


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    #19
    cozmik
    Closed Accounts Posts: 984 ✭✭✭cozmik


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    They are allowed to speak again because they are sovereign.

    Well do the people want to speak again?


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    #20
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    cozmik wrote: »
    Well do the people want to speak again?
    I dunno, let me ask you this. Apart from a referendum (because holding a referendum on whether or not to hold a referendum would be silly), how do the people, in a democracy such as Ireland's, exercise their sovereignty in relation to decision-making on matters of policy?

    Think... democracy. What do democracies have, apart from referendums.


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    #21
    Mr Ed
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Mr Ed


    If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

    Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

    I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

    Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!


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    #22
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Mr Ed wrote: »
    If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

    Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

    Sure - you just need a constitutional mechanism, or elect a government that wants to put the matter to referendum again.
    Mr Ed wrote: »
    I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

    Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!

    There you go. Now you just need a constitutional mechanism to make that happen. Persuade enough people to vote for the people you think ought to be in, and you can have your number one as well.

    Or should we not have any rules?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #23
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Mr Ed wrote: »
    If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

    Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

    I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

    Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!

    I've highlighted the important part that needs to change if you want your wish granted. In a democracy we have these things called elections which decides our government and our government decides when to hold referenda. It's a pretty simple concept.

    Also on a legal note if Lisbon is ratified by all 27 states it can't be rescinded without all 27 agreeing to do so. Pulling out of the EU is the only alternative we would have.


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    #24
    jpfahy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭jpfahy


    Mr Ed wrote: »
    If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

    I think we should also have another Divorce Referendum while we're at it. Funny how we kept having them until we voted it in and we haven't had one since....

    Maybe we could have a referendum day every year and redo all the referendums again to see how we feel at the time, abortion anyone?


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    #25
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    Mr Ed wrote: »
    If, after the second referendum, the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, can the no voters then demand a third vote to try and reverse that decision?

    Surely if its a democracy, we should be allowed to do this if we are asked to vote a second time, we could keep this going for years if that's the case - all in the name if democracy!

    I doubt the government or the yes side would be too keen on that. Once they get the vote they want, it'll be forgotten about.

    Also Brian if you are reading this could we have another vote on the last General Election please. I don't think many people are happy with how things have panned out since then!
    No one person, or small group of people, has the right to demand something of a state which represents the people. That would be profoundly undemocratic. That is wy I have no rigt to demand a second referendum. According to our constitution which we democratically ratified and which is there to protect our democracy, the only body which can call a referendum to amend the constitution is the Oireachtas, which must be democratically elected.

    Now, answer this for me please. Do you, or do you not, respect the Irish Constitution.


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    #26
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    jpfahy wrote: »
    I think we should also have another Divorce Referendum while we're at it. Funny how we kept having them until we voted it in and we haven't had one since....

    Maybe we could have a referendum day every year and redo all the referendums again to see how we feel at the time, abortion anyone?

    That one is easy enough - you just kick up enough fuss that the government decides it's politically worthwhile holding one. I don't think the government cares one way or the other, but they won't put the question to referendum unless they feel a new decision is required.

    Personally, I think you'll find the majority are happy enough with the current slightly hypocritical status quo on abortion, and the rather less hypocritical status quo on divorce. Unfortunately, it looks as if the majority don't really have an issue with the idea of a second Lisbon referendum either. Hardly surprising, since people didn't really have a problem with Nice II either. There's never been any popular pressure to have an EU treaty reversed, if it comes to it - even the No campaigners go to sleep after a Yes.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #27
    cozmik
    Closed Accounts Posts: 984 ✭✭✭cozmik


    cozmik wrote: »
    Well do the people want to speak again?
    evercloserunion wrote: »
    I dunno....

    Nor do I :confused:

    All I know is the people have already spoken and now they must do so again whether or not they want to.


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    #28
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    cozmik wrote: »
    All I know is the people have already spoken and now they must do so again whether or not they want to.
    People will be forced to vote at gunpoint, will they?


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    #29
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    People will be forced to vote at gunpoint, will they?

    might increase turnout at elections and referendaa :D

    funny how people who don't bother voting bitch about the government down the road, democracy for ya

    and then theres "If you dont know, vote No" brigade (sick)


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    #30
    hellboy99
    Registered Users Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭hellboy99


    If it's another no vote again sure there will be another chance to vote on it the following year :rolleyes:, either that or the government will just bring it in away regardless of a vote.


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    #31
    cozmik
    Closed Accounts Posts: 984 ✭✭✭cozmik


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    People will be forced to vote at gunpoint, will they?

    Har-de-har

    Why would those who voted no want to vote again? It's only yes voters who want to change the outcome. So in a sense the no voters are being forced to vote again in order to defend the outcome of the referendum.

    It's pathetic and it's not democracy.


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