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The Flood account (a symbolic interpretation)?

  • 10-02-2010 5:52pm
    #1
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭


    Hi, I know that some Christians here believe that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve ect (aswell as other bible stories), shouldn't be read literally and taken as a symbolic story to suggest something about the nature of man and sin ect. So I was just wondering if people view the account of the flood, noah and the ark, in the same way and what the story is viewed as a metaphor (if that's the right word) for? I can see how the idea of the tower of Babel might be viewed as being a warning against commiting yourself to pointless endevours(?) but what about the rest of the account? Is there a general consensus on what this might be? Do you have any personal view of what the point being made is? Thanks.


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Comments

  • #2
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    strobe wrote: »
    Hi, I know that some Christians here believe that the Genesis account of Adam and Eve ect (aswell as other bible stories), shouldn't be read literally and taken as a symbolic story to suggest something about the nature of man and sin ect. So I was just wondering if people view the account of the flood, noah and the ark, in the same way and what the story is viewed as a metaphor (if that's the right word) for? I can see how the idea of the tower of Babel might be viewed as being a warning against commiting yourself to pointless endevours(?) but what about the rest of the account? Is there a general consensus on what this might be? Do you have any personal view of what the point being made is? Thanks.
    I hold to the historical narrative view of the Creation and Flood, so can't help you with the metaphor idea. I too am keen to hear these parts of Scripture exegeted fully by our brethren who deny YEC.


  • #3
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    I hold to the historical narrative view of the Creation and Flood, so can't help you with the metaphor idea. I too am keen to hear these parts of Scripture exegeted fully by our brethren who deny YEC.

    I don't see that the Flood is connected with YEC at all. Two separate issues.


  • #4
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    PDN wrote: »
    I don't see that the Flood is connected with YEC at all. Two separate issues.
    Yes, they could be unconnected.

    But the same hermeneutic that gets a YEC gets a global Flood; and the one that allows evolution has to go for a local Flood or make it a metaphor.


  • #5
    janeeen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭janeeen


    Jesus sometimes spoke in metaphor's but, i do believe when Jesus spoke
    about Bible accounts he believed them too....
    Remember Jesus spoke about Adam and Eve and Noah and the ark as facts witch happened in the past.

    Luke 26“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

    As for Adam and Eve, if they were just a metaphor then Jesus would not
    have had to die for Adams sin.


  • #6
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    janeeen wrote: »
    Jesus sometimes spoke in metaphor's but, i do believe when Jesus spoke
    about Bible accounts he believed them too....
    Remember Jesus spoke about Adam and Eve and Noah and the ark as facts witch happened in the past.

    Luke 26“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

    As for Adam and Eve, if they were just a metaphor then Jesus would not
    have had to die for Adams sin.

    Thanks Janeen, could you quote the passages where he spoke about Adam and Eve aswell?


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  • #7
    janeeen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭janeeen


    strobe wrote: »
    Thanks Janeen, could you quote the passages where he spoke about Adam and Eve aswell?

    Your right strobe my mistake, Jesus never mentioned Adam or Eves name
    but, in John 8:44 Jesus speaks of Satan calling him a murderer from the beginning, the Jewish people would of known Jesus was
    talking about the account in Genesis.

    Also in Matthew 19:4 Jesus says Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female.

    John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies".


  • #8
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    YEC's are, imho, strange, strange people.


  • #9
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    janeeen wrote: »
    Your right strobe my mistake, Jesus never mentioned Adam or Eves name...
    Also in Matthew 19:4 Jesus says Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female.
    The quote from Matthew 19 is quite explicit as the Lord Jesus includes a quote from Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24:
    He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."
    (Mat 19:4-6 ESV)


  • #10
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    If you look at other religious literture of around the same period and location,i.e. the Epic of Gilgamesh, you'll find that a large flood is a common theme. Though I believe there is at least a hundred years between Gilgamesh and Genesis. That said,it does not seem unreasonable to assume that all these religions were reporting a large flood which actually happened in their region at some point in their early history.


  • #11
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Thanks for the responses. So would it be fair to say that all,like 99.99%, of Christians view the flood account as literal? Just to clarify the question of weather the flood itself was to be taken literal of symbolically (metaphorically) wasn't what I was wondering about, I can't see any reason a Christian would doubt the idea of a big flood to be literal. I was more interested if there are Christians here that view the part about Noah building the ark and collecting two of every animal and then restarting humanity as literal, and if not than how is it supposed to be taken? Do you view it as a metaphor for something or..?


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  • #12
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    strobe wrote: »
    Thanks for the responses. So would it be fair to say that all,like 99.99%, of Christians view the flood account as literal? Just to clarify the question of weather the flood itself was to be taken literal of symbolically (metaphorically) wasn't what I was wondering about, I can't see any reason a Christian would doubt the idea of a big flood to be literal. I was more interested if there are Christians here that view the part about Noah building the ark and collecting two of every animal and then restarting humanity as literal, and if not than how is it supposed to be taken? Do you view it as a metaphor for something or..?

    Not a metaphor, no.

    My own position would be that Noah built a literal ark to avoid a literal flood and filled it with literal animals.

    Having said that, I don't believe that the Flood necessarily covered the entire planet earth. If it covered the area inhabited by man at that time then the language used would be entirely appropriate (just as the New Testament describes the apostles' teaching as having "filled the whole world" when it had spread through the Jewish diaspora). I find it entirely possible that, having attained to animal husbandry, Noah rescued a large quantity of those animals from a huge flood and kept some breeding stock. However, even if a Flood covered a massive area in the Ancient Near East, I don't see any need for stocking a boat with koala bears or penguins.


  • #13
    herbiemcc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭herbiemcc


    Genesis
    17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
    6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

    That seems pretty clear to me. Either it is literal or wrong.


  • #14
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Not a metaphor, no.

    My own position would be that Noah built a literal ark to avoid a literal flood and filled it with literal animals.

    Having said that, I don't believe that the Flood necessarily covered the entire planet earth. If it covered the area inhabited by man at that time then the language used would be entirely appropriate (just as the New Testament describes the apostles' teaching as having "filled the whole world" when it had spread through the Jewish diaspora). I find it entirely possible that, having attained to animal husbandry, Noah rescued a large quantity of those animals from a huge flood and kept some breeding stock. However, even if a Flood covered a massive area in the Ancient Near East, I don't see any need for stocking a boat with koala bears or penguins.

    Do you believe that all humans, apart from Noah and his family, were killed in the flood and that all humans on Earth are descended from Noah and his family?

    And I suppose a follow on from that, how vital to your faith is it that this actually happened (if you say yes to the question above). If it was demonstrated to you that it didn't happen (something I'm not going to bother trying to do so don't worry about going down a rabbit hole :)) would that call you to question the doctrine of your faith or would it just be a "Meh, not that relevant to Jesus and salvation"

    I suppose I'm trying to get an idea about how vital it is that these events of Genesis, the Flood, Babel etc, actually historically happened to Christian faith?


  • #15
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Surely the integrity of the entire Bible must come into question when several components are shown to be false or incorrect.


  • #16
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    herbiemcc wrote: »
    Genesis
    17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
    6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

    That seems pretty clear to me. Either it is literal or wrong.

    No, only if you're trying to force a strictness of language onto the Bible that you don't apply elsewhere.

    The Bible uses phenomenonal language and figures of speech that were common in the time that it was written. If everything on the part of the earth where mankind dwelt was destroyed then the language in Genesis would be entirely justified. If you want to make Genesis a scientific text book then you can argue that "everything on earth" must include Australia and Antarctica - but in that case you've jumped the shark by trying to treat a religious text as if it were a science text book. We've discussed this numerous times in various threads without hijacking this one.


  • #17
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    liamw wrote: »
    Surely the integrity of the entire Bible must come into question when several components are shown to be false or incorrect.

    Not if the 'falseness' or 'incorrectness' is a figment of your imagination produced by trying to force a totally artificial interpretation onto the Bible.

    We had a discussion, for example, in the A&A forum once that descended into absolute idiocy by people insisting that distances and measurements in the Bible must be scientifically accurate to a very precise degree instead of understanding that figures in most historical or religious texts are rounded up or down to the nearest unit.

    The Bible uses figures of speech, approximate figures etc. Only the very dogmatic and unthinking fundamentalists (both of the Christian and anti-Christian variety) try to ignore that fact. We happily accept such usage of language in other areas of life, heck the BBC weatherman even speaks about the sun 'rising' - so it is silly to object when the Bible uses language in similar ways.


  • #18
    janeeen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭janeeen


    Ive always found it a little hard to believe that Noah could fit all the
    animals on th ark but, when i read parts of the Bible where Jesus talked about Noah it would put my mind at rest.

    I suppose if you think about it God made all the animals travel to Noah
    so he did not have to go out and gather them.
    Also the animals were probably not mature and not fully grown making it easy to fit on, perhaps they even slept for most of the journey under Gods will.

    The Ark was supposedly 450`long 75`wide and 45`high with 3 decks.
    I'm not sure how big in scale that would be if you stood back and looked
    but, i do know my house is fairly big by slandered at about 45`long and half that wide.
    You could easily drop my house on one of the 3 decks and it you would only take up a fraction of the room.
    Also we know that God closed up the huge door on the ark himself when the floods came preventing other people from entering so ,miracles did occur.


  • #19
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Not if the 'falseness' or 'incorrectness' is a figment of your imagination produced by trying to force a totally artificial interpretation onto the Bible.

    Do you believe those who wrote Genesis meant to imply that this was not a world wide flood, that not all humans died in the flood, and not all animals died in the flood?

    Or do you think they were describing what they understood at the time (a time when the "whole world" would have been to them much smaller than it actually is and what they understood to be all animals would have been much less than it actually was)?


  • #20
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do you believe that all humans, apart from Noah and his family, were killed in the flood and that all humans on Earth are descended from Noah and his family?

    Unlike some other posters (both Christian and atheist) I don't feel the need to argue dogmatically that anyone interpretation of the biblical text has to be correct.

    I don't know if all members of homo sapiens that were alive at the time of the Flood were killed. I do believe that those who descended from Adam and Eve, with the exception of the 8 in the ark, were killed (for example, I'm open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were simply the first humans in whom God implanted a spirit - making them 'in his image').

    I do believe that all humans today are descended from a common female (mitochondrial Eve) and also from a common male from a considerably later date (Y-chromosomal Adam). I understand that there is evidence suggesting that all human beings alive today share a common ancestor dating back as recently as 5000 years ago (Rohde, DL; Olson, S; Chang, JT Nature - September 2004, "Modelling the recent common ancestry of all living humans").
    And I suppose a follow on from that, how vital to your faith is it that this actually happened (if you say yes to the question above). If it was demonstrated to you that it didn't happen (something I'm not going to bother trying to do so don't worry about going down a rabbit hole :)) would that call you to question the doctrine of your faith or would it just be a "Meh, not that relevant to Jesus and salvation"

    I suppose I'm trying to get an idea about how vital it is that these events of Genesis, the Flood, Babel etc, actually historically happened to Christian faith?

    If I've interpreted Genesis wrong then that would shake my faith in my own intellectual abilities and infallibility - but that has been shaken by many things over my lifetime. :) It would have little or no impact on my faith in God since it would not undo the great good He has done in my life, or the way I see Him touch the lives of others.


  • #21
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do you believe those who wrote Genesis meant to imply that this was not a world wide flood, that not all humans died in the flood, and not all animals died in the flood?

    Or do you think they were describing what they understood at the time (a time when the "whole world" would have been to them much smaller than it actually is and what they understood to be all animals would have been much less than it actually was)?

    I don't think they meant to imply anything at all about Australia or Antarctica, since they hadn't a clue those places existed. They simply affirmed that all the world, as they knew it, was flooded.


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  • #22
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    PDN wrote: »
    Not if the 'falseness' or 'incorrectness' is a figment of your imagination produced by trying to force a totally artificial interpretation onto the Bible.

    The Noah's Ark story is quite clear. I could argue that your being intellectually dishonest by interpereting pieces of the Bible symbolically and literally willy nilly as you please, until it fits snugly with the current scientific facts about the world.
    We had a discussion, for example, in the A&A forum once that descended into absolute idiocy by people insisting that distances and measurements in the Bible must be scientifically accurate to a very precise degree instead of understanding that figures in most historical or religious texts are rounded up or down to the nearest unit.

    Ah yes, the PI discussion. I think the point was that if this book was inspired by God, shouldn't it at least be accurate? If you accept as any non-christian does that it's just written by primitive mankind and hence the error, then you might as well just leave God out of the equation altogether.

    I've said before, I've never seen any reason to see the Bible as inspired by the divine any more so than the Koran or any other ancient book.
    The Bible uses figures of speech, approximate figures etc. Only the very dogmatic and unthinking fundamentalists (both of the Christian and anti-Christian variety) try to ignore that fact. We happily accept such usage of language in other areas of life, heck the BBC weatherman even speaks about the sun 'rising' - so it is silly to object when the Bible uses language in similar ways.

    I accept that we are allowed to use figures of speech.. but there's figures of speech and then there's entire stories. Noah's Ark isn't just a 'figure of speech'.

    The pertinent point here is that I don't see any good reason to believe the Bible is anything more than a bunch of stories and myths written by humans. Just like I see nothing to suggest there's an afterlife... it doesn't make sense to believe something until there's some positive evidence to back it up.


  • #23
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    liamw wrote: »
    The Noah's Ark story is quite clear. I could argue that your being intellectually dishonest by interpereting pieces of the Bible symbolically and literally willy nilly as you please, until it fits snugly with the current scientific facts about the world.
    You could argue that, but you would be wrong and untruthful to do so. As a Christian who believes that the Bible reveals truth, it is in my interest to find the interpretation of the Bible that is correct, not that suits my agenda. Therefore I have spent years studying at postgraduate level to understand how language was used in the Ancient Near East.

    You are entitled to disagree with my views, even if it is not on the basis of any knowledge of the subject at hand, but you have no business accusing me of intellectual dishonesty.
    Ah yes, the PI discussion. I think the point was that if this book was inspired by God, shouldn't it at least be accurate? If you accept as any non-christian does that it's just written by primitive mankind and hence the error, then you might as well just leave God out of the equation altogether.
    Approximation of measurements is not error. If wanted to describe our church building to you I might say it measures 50 meters by 10 meters. If my purpose was to describe it you and help you get a mental picture of it, then my statement is true, even if the actual measurement is 52.76543876 meters by 9.90008762134 meters. Even if God were inspiring my description to preserve it from error, it would be unreasonable to expect Him to make it precise to twenty decimal points purely on the off-chance that some atheist buffoon centuries later might demand artificial levels of accuracy to correspond with a scientific blueprint.

    Let's not go down that route here. It did your fellow travellers no credit at all the last two times they tried the pi nonsense - and I'm not in a mood to tolerate such silliness here.
    I accept that we are allowed to use figures of speech.. but there's figures of speech and then there's entire stories. Noah's Ark isn't just a 'figure of speech'.
    Nobody's saying it is. I'm suggesting, quite reasonably, that the phrase "all the earth" may be a figure of speech.
    The pertinent point here is that I don't see any good reason to believe the Bible is anything more than a bunch of stories and myths written by humans. Just like I see nothing to suggest there's an afterlife... it doesn't make sense to believe something until there's some positive evidence to back it up.
    And you're entitled to believe that if you wish. In fact boards.ie, in their graciousness, have provided an Atheism and Agnosticism forum where you can proclaim your views as much as you want. However, this is the Christianity forum.


  • #24
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Unlike some other posters (both Christian and atheist) I don't feel the need to argue dogmatically that anyone interpretation of the biblical text has to be correct.

    You have though argued many times that certain interpretations of the Bible are incorrect.

    I assume though you require that some certain elements be considered facts on some level. For example original sin, Jesus, the resurrection as an actual event etc.
    PDN wrote: »
    I do believe that those who descended from Adam and Eve, with the exception of the 8 in the ark, were killed (for example, I'm open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were simply the first humans in whom God implanted a spirit - making them 'in his image').

    If that turned out to not be true would it effect your faith?
    PDN wrote: »
    If I've interpreted Genesis wrong then that would shake my faith in my own intellectual abilities and infallibility - but that has been shaken by many things over my lifetime. :) It would have little or no impact on my faith in God since it would not undo the great good He has done in my life, or the way I see Him touch the lives of others.

    Would it call into question though that you are worship the correct god (ie the God of the Bible)?


  • #25
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    You have though argued many times that certain interpretations of the Bible are incorrect.

    I assume though you require that some certain elements be considered facts on some level. For example original sin, Jesus, the resurrection as an actual event etc.
    As in any field of knowledge, there are some things that are more evident than others.

    Our knowledge of contemporary forms of literature of the First Century AD far exceeds that of the time when Genesis was being written. Therefore we can be pretty certain that the resurrection accounts were intended by their original authors to be understood as referring to an actual event.

    However, the further back we go the harder it is to sustain such certainty, therefore, when we reach the oldest accounts of all such as the early Chapters of Genesis, there is good reason not to be overly dogmatic about how to interpret the text.
    If that turned out to not be true would it effect your faith?
    No, I've already said that it would only affect my faith in my own intellectual capabilities which, while I humbly consider them to be stunning and worthy of worldwide adulation, are not infallible. :)
    Would it call into question though that you are worship the correct god (ie the God of the Bible)?
    No. My understanding of who God is remains based on unambiguous teaching in the New Testament which is supported by personal experience. The fact that I might have misinterpreted something in Genesis may cause me to feel a bit sheepish, but it doesn't affect the big issues of salvation at all.


  • #26
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    So PDN is your understanding of it that God warned Noah there was going to be a big flood and told him to build a big boat, so Noah built the boat and brought say, two goats, two cows and two sheep (for example) on board, then the flood hit and Noah, his relatives and the few animals he brought survived? Localised flood not a global one, a few animals not all the animals, and they were the ones that survived in the locality as far as he knew? Then afterwards others exagerated the story. Instead of saying most people and animals were killed in the flood they said all were. Instead of saying Noah saved the animals to hand, he saved all the animals?


  • #27
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    strobe wrote: »
    So PDN is your understanding of it that God warned Noah there was going to be a big flood and told him to build a big boat, so Noah built the boat and brought say, two goats, two cows and two sheep (for example) on board, then the flood hit and Noah, his relatives and the few animals he brought survived? Localised flood not a global one, a few animals not all the animals, and they were the ones that survived in the locality as far as he knew? Then afterwards others exagerated the story. Instead of saying most people and animals were killed in the flood they said all were. Instead of saying Noah saved the animals to hand, he saved all the animals?

    No, not quite.

    I would suggest that the Flood was localised, but still extremely large. It was sufficient to wipe out the human race because, that early on, they had not spread to many parts of the world yet. The animals would be 2 (or 7 in some cases) of all the animals that dwelt in that part of the world.

    The report of the story was not an exaggeration, because the region around them was their entire world. The concept of 'global' did not even exist.


  • #28
    allisbleak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭allisbleak


    PDN wrote: »
    Not if the 'falseness' or 'incorrectness' is a figment of your imagination produced by trying to force a totally artificial interpretation onto the Bible.

    PDN with all due respect, you have no IDEA who wrote the New Testement.
    PDN wrote: »
    We had a discussion, for example, in the A&A forum once that descended into absolute idiocy by people insisting that distances and measurements in the Bible must be scientifically accurate to a very precise degree instead of understanding that figures in most historical or religious texts are rounded up or down to the nearest unit.

    Its only idiocy to you. When you are asked for proof you constantly offer up the word of a 1900 year old text as a basis of facts, then you interpret it to suit any situation.

    [/QUOTE]
    PDN wrote: »
    I don't know if all members of homo sapiens that were alive at the time of the Flood were killed.
    DNA blows this away. There is an excellent article in Time magazine.
    PDN wrote: »
    I understand that there is evidence suggesting that all human beings alive today share a common ancestor dating back as recently as 5000 years ago (Rohde, DL; Olson, S; Chang, JT Nature - September 2004, "Modelling the recent common ancestry of all living humans").
    Completely incorrect.
    PDN wrote: »
    If I've interpreted Genesis wrong
    There is your problem. If religion was real it would not need to be interpreted.
    liamw wrote: »
    The pertinent point here is that I don't see any good reason to believe the Bible is anything more than a bunch of stories and myths written by humans. Just like I see nothing to suggest there's an afterlife... it doesn't make sense to believe something until there's some positive evidence to back it up.

    I completely agree.

    Surely the fact that over 5 billion other people on the planet do not believe what you do is a sign.


  • #29
    .Moosejam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭.Moosejam


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    I hold to the historical narrative view of the Creation and Flood, so can't help you with the metaphor idea. I too am keen to hear these parts of Scripture exegeted fully by our brethren who deny YEC.

    And you hold yourself high as an object of ridicule, to sit at a computer and type that, the science which created it long long ago relegated your ideas to the backwash of delusional insanity , it's simply an abject insult to the thousands who spent their lifes work devoted to the improvement of mankind, if you hold those beliefs then you can not use your PC.

    It is simply not possible to hold those views and sit using a computer, absolutely not possible, and I hold you as being two faced in the extreme, on the one hand holding those views and on the other using the technology which has exposed your views as false,

    And yet here you are using the tools.

    Can you spell two faced ?


  • #30
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    .Moosejam wrote: »
    And you hold yourself high as an object of ridicule, to sit at a computer and type that, the science which created it long long ago relegated your ideas to the backwash of delusional insanity , it's simply an abject insult to the thousands who spent their lifes work devoted to the improvement of mankind, if you hold those beliefs then you can not use your PC.

    It is simply not possible to hold those views and sit using a computer, absolutely not possible, and I hold you as being two faced in the extreme, on the one hand holding those views and on the other using the technology which has exposed your views as false,

    And yet here you are using the tools.

    Can you spell two faced ?


    What a load of tosh! I've seen this nonsense put forward by people before, and unfortunately so many half-wits lap it up and regurgitate it! Disagree and postulate reasons why you think YEC's are insane all you want, but the above is the biggest steaming pile!


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  • #31
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    PDN wrote: »
    No, not quite.

    I would suggest that the Flood was localised, but still extremely large. It was sufficient to wipe out the human race because, that early on, they had not spread to many parts of the world yet. The animals would be 2 (or 7 in some cases) of all the animals that dwelt in that part of the world.

    The report of the story was not an exaggeration, because the region around them was their entire world. The concept of 'global' did not even exist.

    Why 7 in some cases?


  • #32
    chozometroid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 626 ✭✭✭chozometroid


    strobe wrote: »
    Why 7 in some cases?
    Noah was told to take 7 of the "clean" (sheep) animals, but only 2 of the "unclean" (pigs) animals.


  • #33
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    .Moosejam wrote: »
    And you hold yourself high as an object of ridicule, to sit at a computer and type that, the science which created it long long ago relegated your ideas to the backwash of delusional insanity , it's simply an abject insult to the thousands who spent their lifes work devoted to the improvement of mankind, if you hold those beliefs then you can not use your PC.

    It is simply not possible to hold those views and sit using a computer, absolutely not possible, and I hold you as being two faced in the extreme, on the one hand holding those views and on the other using the technology which has exposed your views as false,

    And yet here you are using the tools.

    Can you spell two faced ?

    Can you spell 'infracted'? Pull a stunt like that again and you'll learn how to spell 'banned'.


  • #34
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    allisbleak wrote: »
    PDN with all due respect, you have no IDEA who wrote the New Testement.
    Not true. Scholars are in agrreement as to the authorship of some of the New Testament books, and disagree as to the authors of others.

    What I can say, Rohatch, on the basis of some of your previous posts, is that I evidently know more about the composition of the New testament than you do.
    Its only idiocy to you. When you are asked for proof you constantly offer up the word of a 1900 year old text as a basis of facts, then you interpret it to suit any situation.
    No, I don't offer up a 1900 year old text as 'proof' of anything. As for interpreting something to suit situations - that is what people do with every communication be it written or oral. I suggest you try a little communication theory. Without interpretation there is no communication.
    DNA blows this away. There is an excellent article in Time magazine.
    Then a link might be helpful since I long ago let my subscription to Time lapse as a waste of money and have no intention of reading hundreds of issues to search for an article that you like.
    Completely incorrect.
    No facts or counter-argument then, so I guess I'll just have to take your word for it?
    There is your problem. If religion was real it would not need to be interpreted.
    Everything needs to be interpreted. How do you expect anyone to derive any meaning from your posts, from a dictionary, or from anything unless they interpret them?

    Surely the fact that over 5 billion other people on the planet do not believe what you do is a sign.
    Actually it isn't a sign for me, since I believe that the truth of a proposition is not increased or lessened by popular vote.

    However, if you believe that the truth of a proposition is undermined by the numbers of people that fail to believe it, then that must be a hammer blow to your atheistic views since over 6 billion other people on the planet don't believe what you do.


  • #35
    Sandwlch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Sandwlch


    Was The Flood not the relatively quick filling of the Black Sea when water from the Med broke through the Bosphorus after the melting of the North American ice cap? It is likely to have taken from a year or two to as short as a few months to cover the area we now know as the sea. Displacing the early societies that were living there back South. A cataclysmic event leaving a very strong folk memory.


  • #36
    darjeeling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭darjeeling


    Allisbleak / Rohatch, PDN's cited Nature article was an attempt to estimate the date of the most recent individual who features in the family tree of everyone in the world. The article was not saying that all people today inherit all their genes from this one common ancestor, who they reckon lived a mere 5,000 years ago. In fact, plenty of other people living at the time have contributed to our genomes. This is why if you estimate the common ancestor for each human gene in turn, you typically get much more ancient estimates, far older even than the common ancestor for the human Y chromosome (Y chromosomal Adam, ~ 60,000 years ago) or mtDNA (mtDNA Eve, ~150,000 years ago).

    That said, PDN, I fear yours is a somewhat selective approach to the science. You say that you accept the evidence for Mitochondrial Eve, but later that you think that the whole of the 'human race' was still living in the area swept clean by the Biblical flood, which you recognise as occurring in the Near East. Yet the evidence says that Mitochondrial Eve lived in Africa, where humans evolved (incidentally, Darwin predicted we'd find this even before any fossils had been dug up). Modern humans remained in Africa for a hundred thousand years or so before a small number of them spread out to populate the world. For your Noachian deluge to put paid to all humans bar Noah & kin, it would therefore have had to spread across at least two continents, and so amount to rather more than a little local difficulty on the Mesopotamian flood plain.

    Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong? Are you taking the 'True Scotsman' line, and excluding contemporaneous African people from your definition of the 'human race' because you think they weren't descendents of the first divinely inspired Homo sapiens, your near-Eastern Adam and Eve?


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  • #37
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    Sandwlch wrote: »
    Was The Flood not the relatively quick filling of the Black Sea when water from the Med broke through the Bosphorus after the melting of the North American ice cap? It is likely to have taken from a year or two to as short as a few months to cover the area we now know as the sea. Displacing the early societies that were living there back South. A cataclysmic event leaving a very strong folk memory.

    No, the Biblical account of the flood is a world-wide flood, with a water depth that went over the highest mountains. In support of that is that memories of the flood are to be found in many ancient civilations from the middle east to China, Americas etc.


  • #38
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    santing wrote: »
    No, the Biblical account of the flood is a world-wide flood, with a water depth that went over the highest mountains. In support of that is that memories of the flood are to be found in many ancient civilations from the middle east to China, Americas etc.

    In relation to that, where do you believe the water came from and where do you believe it went to afterwards? Is it just that you believe god created it miraculously and then removed it miraculously afterwards? Is that your view as to how the plant life survived aswell, that it was shielded supernaturally from the effect of drowning and from light deprivation? Also does the bible offer a timeframe for the flood to have begun, lasted and ceased? Do believers in the literal interpretation of the account have any view as to wether the flood water was fresh or salted and an explanation as to how sea life would survive that level of fresh water diluting their environment and sea floor life would survive the extra weight of all those thousand of tons of water, or how all other life (on the ark) would have survived without any supply of fresh water on earth in the event of the flood being salt water?

    Or is the only theory offered for all the above that god supernaturally circumvented these problems?


  • #39
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    darjeeling wrote: »
    Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong? Are you taking the 'True Scotsman' line, and excluding contemporaneous African people from your definition of the 'human race' because you think they weren't descendents of the first divinely inspired Homo sapiens, your near-Eastern Adam and Eve?

    Do you want to discuss what I actually posted, or do you want to impute highly offensive and maliciously false views that try to present me as a racist? Make your mind up - because I'm certainly not to give you the opportunity to do both.

    All I said was that I was open to the possibility that the flood was less than global in its scope. I certainly did not limit it to the Mesopotomian flood plain. In fact the areas I mentioned as being beyond the scope of a local flood were Australia and Antarctica.

    There are a number of different possible scenarios that could account for varying extents of the Flood and be consistent with what we know of population distribution and the role of DNA in our ancestry.


  • #40
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    PDN wrote: »
    There are a number of different possible scenarios that could account for varying extents of the Flood and be consistent with what we know of population distribution and the role of DNA in our ancestry.

    I don't know a whole lot about population distribution when the flood supposedly happened (a few thousand years ago?). If a reasonably large amount of people were killed in the middle east you'd think that would leave its mark. Do you have links or books for evidence of this? You seem fairly sure. And I am honestly interested in this I don't have any problem with a local flood at all (I have major problems with a flood that covered literally every square inch).


  • #41
    darjeeling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭darjeeling


    PDN wrote: »
    Do you want to discuss what I actually posted, or do you want to impute highly offensive and maliciously false views that try to present me as a racist? Make your mind up - because I'm certainly not to give you the opportunity to do both.

    Oh dear, I don't know where you get that from. Let me elaborate:
    PDN wrote: »
    I don't know if all members of homo sapiens that were alive at the time of the Flood were killed. I do believe that those who descended from Adam and Eve, with the exception of the 8 in the ark, were killed (for example, I'm open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were simply the first humans in whom God implanted a spirit - making them 'in his image').
    PDN wrote: »
    It [the flood] was sufficient to wipe out the human race because, that early on, they had not spread to many parts of the world yet.

    Taking those two posts together, it's not clear what you mean by the 'human race'. It seems as though you allow the possibility that not all Homo sapiens living at the time of the flood qualified, and that descent from Adam and Eve was a requirement for inclusion. But I'll leave it to you to explain what you mean.
    PDN wrote: »
    There are a number of different possible scenarios that could account for varying extents of the Flood and be consistent with what we know of population distribution and the role of DNA in our ancestry.

    I would note, though, that you acknowledge that the most recent common ancestor for the Y-chromosome is estimated using population genetics to have lived 60,000 years ago. If your flood was much more recent than that, and all the male survivors descended from a single man, Noah, then there's a problem right off. This is just to point out that when you start trying to justify these events with science, then you have to take account of all that the evidence is saying. I'm satisified that the scientific consensus from geological, palaeontological, genetic, biogeographic etc evidence doesn't support a recent global flood, but I'm not going to pursue it any further here, given that the monster creationism thread has already covered all of this.


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  • #42
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    strobe wrote: »
    In relation to that, where do you believe the water came from and where do you believe it went to afterwards? Is it just that you believe god created it miraculously and then removed it miraculously afterwards? Is that your view as to how the plant life survived aswell, that it was shielded supernaturally from the effect of drowning and from light deprivation? Also does the bible offer a timeframe for the flood to have begun, lasted and ceased? Do believers in the literal interpretation of the account have any view as to wether the flood water was fresh or salted and an explanation as to how sea life would survive that level of fresh water diluting their environment and sea floor life would survive the extra weight of all those thousand of tons of water, or how all other life (on the ark) would have survived without any supply of fresh water on earth in the event of the flood being salt water?

    Or is the only theory offered for all the above that god supernaturally circumvented these problems?
    The answer is yes. Are you really interested in a detailed answer?


  • #43
    darjeeling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭darjeeling


    Continuing from my last post, you say the flood was enough to wipe out the human race:
    PDN wrote: »
    It [the flood] was sufficient to wipe out the human race because, that early on, they had not spread to many parts of the world yet.

    And yet you allow that it could have been limited to the ancient Near East:
    PDN wrote: »
    [...]I don't believe that the Flood necessarily covered the entire planet earth. [...] However, even if a Flood covered a massive area in the Ancient Near East, I don't see any need for stocking a boat with koala bears or penguins.

    Putting these two posts together, it seems you're implicitly saying that a massive Near Eastern flood was enough to satisfy the Biblical account of exterminating the human race (this must sound very callous to any on-lookers, but hey ho).

    Given that this isn't the creationism thread, and that you seem happy to assimilate scientific fact with the flood narrative, then - for information only and not debate - I'll quickly set out rough dates for the spread of modern humans around the world. Archaeological and genetic data indicates that humans were living continuously in Africa for the last 200,000 years or so. By around 40,000 years ago, the archaeology says they had spread into Europe, into Asia and into Australia. By 15,000 years ago, humans had reached North America. I'm not sure what date you have in mind for the flood, but whenever it took place, there were - going on this physical evidence - humans living outside the Near East, hence my asking how they fit into your understanding of the flood.

    As for myself, I don't believe in a flood that nearly wiped out humanity - happily for our forebears! I think the story is a myth, possibly magnified from a local historical incident; after all, we know the story was written down in Mesopotamia, the land between the rivers, where floods were both commonplace and essential for agriculture. Its resonance, though, is that it taps into human fears and hopes. We fear the powerful, indifferent and arbitrary forces of nature - storms, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes. Not knowing when disasters may strike, we try to find certainty by telling ourselves that they are a divine judgement on us, but that we may avert the worst by doing right by the gods. This taps into our sense of guilt, but also offers hope, giving the myth such power over the imagination.

    The myth still holds people today. Just a couple of years ago, the Anglican Bishop of Carlisle made waves by telling us that flooding in the UK was a judgement on the nation's sorry morality (story here). We also find an echo in the green movement, with some people fearing an environmental reckoning brought about by our violation of the earth, and feeling that our only hope is to abandon economic growth and our hubristic technologies to live in harmony with the natural world. A myth, then, but still a potent one.


  • #44
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    santing wrote: »
    The answer is yes. Are you really interested in a detailed answer?

    If there's a detailed answer to be had, then yes I'm interested in it.

    The difficulty I have with that idea is, why? If God decided that he was going to wipe out life, including the human race, but excluding the sea life and plant life, why do so through a global flood which was completely supernatural in nature, and then supernaturally intercede to prevent the natural effect of a flood of that scale on the plant and aquatic life and on the water supply? Why use a natural force like a flood, to accomplish his goal but apply supernatural safegaurds to limit it's natural effect. Why go through the bother of getting Noah to round up the animals, build a massive boat ect. Why not just miracle all the bad people away or to death or whatever and so avoid the unnescesary, and without divine intervention, completely immpossible global flooding, species decimation, ark building, animal collecting, and repopulation from completely inadequate genetic pools?


  • #45
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    A good FAQ about a global Flood can be found at http://creation.com/noahs-flood-questions-and-answers


  • #46
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    santing wrote: »
    A good FAQ about a global Flood can be found at http://creation.com/noahs-flood-questions-and-answers

    I"m not being funny santing, but have you actually read some of the answers provided in the link? Some of them are so ridiculous they are beyond parody. Salt water and fresh water fish 'adapted in their lifetime' the question of husbandry has been avoided all together ( how can anyone really think a man gathered ALL the animals of the world, millions and millions of species, predator and prey alike and ALL their massive fodder needs onto a wooden boat??) Various dinosaurs just winked out of existence due to this so called global flood? Really, you are comfortable with this?


  • #47
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    fatmammycat wrote: »
    I"m not being funny santing, but have you actually read some of the answers provided in the link? Some of them are so ridiculous they are beyond parody. Salt water and fresh water fish 'adapted in their lifetime' the question of husbandry has been avoided all together ( how can anyone really think a man gathered ALL the animals of the world, millions and millions of species, predator and prey alike and ALL their massive fodder needs onto a wooden boat??) Various dinosaurs just winked out of existence due to this so called global flood? Really, you are comfortable with this?
    There are more than 500 entries in the MEGA Discussion (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=316566), so I don't think we should start another discussion on this in here...


  • #48
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    I am talking specifically about the link you provided. Have you read it and if so how on Earth can you offer it up as any kind of evidence to a global flood? Pertinent questions on husbandry avoided, science made up, geology made up. Logic abandonded. Really, I'm asking you as a person, how can you support such a site?


  • #49
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    santing wrote: »
    A good FAQ about a global Flood can be found at http://creation.com/noahs-flood-questions-and-answers

    Thanks for the link Santing, just got through reading it there, it does make a couple of interesting observations. I completely agree with Fatmammycat (great username btw) though, not even taking into account what fatmammycat pointed out, in it's attempt to address a certain issue, one article it links to presents it's evidence for something and the very next article it links to, in an attempt to address a seperate point, directly contradicts the majority of the points from the preceding article. This happens more than once.

    Still I appreciate your effort to provide an answer. I guess there just isn't one beyond, "God did it and that's just how he rolls".


  • #50
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    There's already the Creationism thread where much debate has occurred about the scientific evidence for or against a global flood.

    This thread was separate because it dealt with other interpretations. If it continues to rehash the BC&P stuff then we'll move it or lock it.


  • #51
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Feel free to lock it PDN. My question was weather there were symbolic or metaphorical interpretations of the event and what they may be. It appears there aren't any? Thanks.


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