I'm ignorant, where can I learn more?

Labour - my understanding of this party is very limited. My muddled view is that they are in support of trade unions and the "workers" of the country. I'm not exactly sure how you would describe their political leanings - can someone enlighten?? Either way, they are, I suppose, lower on the ladder than FG, but higher than the Greens. There's a strong possibility...depending on how voting goes, of course!...that they will form the next Gov with FG, as these 2 would be the biggest opposition parties.

Labour are a 'labour' party, which is to say they're dominated by the interests of the working class and the unions. However, they also have a support base in rural areas that is traditionally farm labourer, whose interests are slightly different, and they have a fair chunk of support in the middle class, whose interests are primarily a progressive social policy - gender equality, anti-racism, LGBT rights. In action, they tend to look after the social interests of the third group and the economic interests of the first group.

Sinn Fein - well. What can you say. A fairly left-wing party (though I'm not clear why). Their interest is Irish Republicanism and little else. Ireland should be a united country that governs it's own affairs with no other involvement from the EU or the UK as far as their thinking goes. (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, simply stating the fact). They do not support the involvement of the IMF/EU, however their own policies (particularly economic) don't seem to be particularly well-formed or articulated...possibly because their main focus has been the North for so long. They have 1 (or 2???) members in the Dail, and recently one of their members won support in the Donegal by-election.

Sinn Fein are quite strongly Marxist, and their roots and strength is in the working class, particularly the real urban (and Catholic) lower classes of the North. Their vision is slightly more specifically a Sinn Fein governed united Ireland than simply a united Ireland. They're extremely good at constituency work in deprived areas - the unkind would say that their ability to influence, say, drug dealers, has its roots in close connections, while one could more kindly put it as a willingness to engage on the same level. Nobody is sure what they'd be like in government in the South - the North is hardly a good guide to normal politics - but one could probably assume poverty and deprivation related issues, support for the lower paid, without the union element that dominates Labour's policy making.

cordially,
Scofflaw

not even wrong wrote: »

Fianna Fail are not centre left, this was the biggest lie Bertie ever told (and that's saying something). FF have one ideology, populism. Their increasing of welfare and pensions during the bubble years wasn't based on any notions about fairness or distributing the wealth equally, it was about buying votes.

I do agree with you, but perhaps its more useful to categorise according to what they did rather than why they did it?

For example, the Castro Revolution became communist in order to win the support of the USSR, not because its protagonists held communist beliefs. Even so, this absence of genuine ideology didn't strip communist policies of their inherent communist nature. The presence of cynical political expediency doesn't necessarily negate the effects of the policies.

Or put another way by Groucho Marx: "He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot."

dan_d wrote: »

Fine Gael - the opposition.In other words, they did not get enough votes in the last election to put them into Gov. They are similar to FF, in that I think they would be left of centre...there are a few differences, but not many, as far as I can see.

Although Fine Gael briefly experimented with more liberal/social democratic views under Fitzgerald in the 1980's, in recent years the party has swung back to its traditional centre-right stance. Many of the party's up and coming, young TD's like Leo Varadkar are firm economic conservatives.

I suppose the party's political position was determined in the 1920's under Cosgrave as Cumann na nGaedheal when the decision was made to govern the new Free State in a conservative, fiscally responsible manner. In addition to these economic policies, the strong stance the party took against the IRA in the Civil War and afterward earned them the title of the 'law and order party'.


If I were to give an overview of the Irish political parties:

Fianna Fáil: Ireland's largest political party and current ruling party. Formed in 1926 by Eamonn De Valera, the party initially represented the Republican movement and the old anti-Treatyites in the new Free State. A broad church, the party has no firm ideology and claims to represent the mainstream of Irish life. Over the past 13 years, they pursued a low-tax economic model to encourage spending and investment in the Irish economy, fuelling a housing boom. However, they also pursued a high-spend public expenditure model, funded by once-off taxes generated from property rather than sustainable taxation. This unsustainable approach led to a collapse in the public finances when the housing bubble burst. This crisis was further complicated by Irish banks who had lent irresponsibly during the boom because of poor regulation. As the dominant political force in Irish life, Fianna Fáil has been no stranger to controversy and many of its leaders have been forced to resign in disgrace following corruption allegations or other claims of wrong-doing. Fianna Fáil's support base is generally nationalist and socially conservative.

Fine Gael: Ireland's second largest political party. It was formed from a merger of Cumann na nGaedheal, the National Centre Party and the National Guard (Blueshirts) in the 1930's. Narrowly defeated by a FF-PD coalition in 1997, following a relatively successful 'Rainbow Coalition' with Labour, it entered into opposition. The party was nearly annihilated in the 2002 General Election under Michael Noonan. Enda Kenny has been very successful in rebuilding the party from the brink although many question his ability to inspire the public. They make great noise about Richard Bruton foreseeing the economic collapse yet in their manifesto in 2007 they called for tax-cuts. Fine Gael's support base is generally anti-republican, economically conservative, pro-business and socially centrist. Fine Gael's members general are very cold towards Sinn Féin because of historical differences. Fine Gael would have generally been seen as the most pro-British party, however this is largely irrelevant since the warming of relations that has taken place over the last 20 years under Fine Gael's John Bruton and Fianna Fáil's Bertie Ahern.

Labour: Ireland's third largest political party, and (although SF members may disagree with this) Ireland's oldest political party. They represent the left of the three mainstream political parties. They accept the capitalist market, however they favour the redistribution of wealth and the support of the poorer in society through higher taxes and increased services. Some of their current prominent members are former Worker's Party and Democratic Left members, which were political parties originating from Official Sinn Fein (with links to the Official IRA) that were socialist/marxist. However, in comparison with the left-wing of other European countries, the Irish Labour Party and its leadership can be seen to be much more centrist and market-friendly. The closest international comparison would be British 'New Labour'. Labour has close official links with the Irish trade union movement and many on the right of Irish politics see this as an issue.

Sinn Féin: Representing the modern republican movement, the current Sinn Féin party can be traced back (as can all Irish political parties) to Arthur Griffith's original SF party however the history of the current incarnation really begins in the 1970's following the split from 'Official' Sinn Féin. Representing the political side of the Provisional IRA, Sinn Féin were heavily involved in the Troubles and were on the extreme of the nationalist movement. However, during the 1980's the party grew rapidly and ended its policy of abstention from the Dáil. Following the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, Sinn Féin has been the main nationalist representive in the Northern Ireland Executive, and this, along with the decommissioning of the Provisional IRA and SF's support for policing and opposition to dissidents in Northern Ireland, has signalled their movement towards mainstream politics on this island. Representing the far left of Irish politics, Sinn Féin's economic policies are strongly influenced by socialism. Sinn Féin is often lauded for the work it does in working-class and border area. However, Sinn Féin's electoral performance has been hampered by a lack of candidates as well as the opposition by much of the Irish middle class towards its economic policies as well as its leadership's links to republicanism and terrorism. Much of Sinn Féin's support is derived from border areas and inner-city Dublin.

Green Party: Representing the Irish branch of the global 'Green Movement', they were until today the junior partner in the Irish coalition government. A very small party, the Green Party gets much of its support from the Dublin region, thanks to its strong work on local issues. However, it will struggled in the upcoming election because of its involvement in the current Government which it was seen to prop up. Although they have a core support based on their ideology, much of their electoral performance has depended on transfers from other candidates. In addition to their green policies, the Green Party is economically centrist and socially liberal.


I think that a couple of notes on Irish political culture in general are needed too.... Any descriptions of left and right have to be taken with reference to the Irish situation, as opposed to pre-conceptions you may or may not have from American, British or European media. The Irish political psyche is very much based on the philosophy of 'Statism', that is that the state is central to the nation. Because of relative poverty of the nation for much of its existence, Irish people have an inherent belief that the state should support them. I am not judging this one way or another, just you may be wondering why things such as Old Age Pensions, Social Welfare etc. etc. are so untouchable to the Irish public.

EDIT: For full disclosure, and in case you're wondering about my bias etc.:

Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13

I have a question and i'd like if people could answer it unbiased.

I'm often hearing friends and family who are in the civil and public service say there is no way they would vote Fine Gael. Why is this so? They seem to believe the party are anti-civil service. Now I realise an anti-civil service sentiment has been created by the media recently, but do Fine Gael have a history of treating the civil service badly?

Many have told me they would vote Fianna Faíl over Fine Gael, or that they can't find a party which seems to represent them.

Cian92 wrote: »

I have a question and i'd like if people could answer it unbiased.

I'm often hearing friends and family who are in the civil and public service say there is no way they would vote Fine Gael. Why is this so? They seem to believe the party are anti-civil service. Now I realise an anti-civil service sentiment has been created by the media recently, but do Fine Gael have a history of treating the civil service badly?

Many have told me they would vote Fianna Faíl over Fine Gael, or that they can't find a party which seems to represent them.

All mainstream parties recognise that public income and expenditure have to be reconciled. Fianna Fáil want a 2:1 ratio of Cuts:Tax Increases, Fine Gael want 3:1 and Labour want 1:1.

And when they say cuts, they mean redundancies, pay cuts & freezes and non-replacement of staff.


Fianna Fáil caused this bloated, unsustainable public service in return for stable industrial relations and Labour are obviously very close to the unions. Thus over the past few years it has been increasingly left to Fine Gael to oppose the Government on its public spending policies.

Though the belief that they would be better off under Fianna Fáil is nonsensical. Voting Labour would be more than understandable, but the reality is that FG/Labour will hammer out a compromise deal that will probably be more or less the same as what Fianna Fáil would propose.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Currently, FG are arguing for a lower-tax lower-spend model, as opposed to, say, Labour, who believe in higher taxes and more government services. In a low-tax low-spend model civil servants and public workers generally lose out, either through job losses or wage cuts. So it would seem a natural position for a civil servant, who would be looking to protect their interests.

There could be cultural/historical reasons too. I'd be at a loss with that kind of stuff though.

Well, Fianna Fáil have ruled this country for much of its existence and Fine Gael have usually overseen periods of severe economic difficulties and fiscal reform. Historical association of FF being boss in good times, FG in bad? All of this purely off the top of my head with no evidence, mind you.

NSNO wrote: »

Well, Fianna Fáil have ruled this country for much of its existence and Fine Gael have usually overseen periods of severe economic difficulties and fiscal reform. Historical association of FF being boss in good times, FG in bad? All of this purely off the top of my head with no evidence, mind you.

Well, anecdotal evidence would suggest that many Irish people don't employ much evidence when voting either, so don't let that disprove a theory! But the question asked related to civil servants specifically, so I imagine the answer is outside of general considerations, like economic management, that would equally apply to all kinds of groups.

Scofflaw wrote: »

One can also argue that allowing same-sex marriages requires a proportion of the citizenry to tolerate things they don't want to have to tolerate, and which they feel damage society as a whole. I view abortion as being an issue of personal choice, but there are a large number of people who very much do not feel it should be a personal choice.

Yes. However, I think the notion of being forced to do something by your government has stronger connotations than merely being forced to tolerate. (I may be entering the realm of pedantry here though!)

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Yes. However, I think the notion of being forced to do something by your government has stronger connotations than merely being forced to tolerate. (I may be entering the realm of pedantry here though!)

Let me put it slightly differently - say I'm a far-right religious social conservative. A libertarian government says "sexuality is a private matter" and introduces legislation that recognises same-sex relationships as being on exactly the same footing as heterosexual relationships - so that marriage laws, divorce laws, adoption, inheritance, the whole kit applies exactly the same without any discrimination whatsoever.

To me as a far-right religious social conservative that doesn't just mean that I now have to put up with same-sex couples. It means you have, from my perspective, weakened the very fabric of society, because from my perspective, society is built on family units based on heterosexual marriage. You're literally kicking away the supporting pillars of society. The results will be awful - not the society I wanted to live in, not the society I wanted to bring my children into. I will, in fact, probably shoot members of the government to indicate my disapproval - or same-sex couples, if I can't get near the government.

So it's not really just about "having to put up with things I disapprove of". To the right kind of person, they're not things it's possible to tolerate. The government is trying to force me, by law, to stand by while society is destroyed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The thing is, generally speaking, I could question right and left leaning parties and get pretty much the same answers. They would all say they want to "protect the poorest in society". They would all be "for jobs", wanting to "promote enterprise", "protect the environment" etc etc etc.

I wonder if ultimately, left and right wing politics come down to one's view of humanity, and how people behave. Left-wing leans more towards the ideal that people will always do the right thing for the benefit of society when given the chance. Right-wing leans more towards the idea that people must be free to choose whatever path they want, but that they must be given incentives to do the right thing for society.

A case in point, bin charges.... Many of us will remember the very ugly scenes surrounding the Dublin introduction. In particular I remember the guy who jumped on top of a van and was carried away for some distance. I believe Joe Higgins was involved in that dispute, and it was the considered far-left view that bin charges were unethical. I understand their view was that the state should continue to cover all costs, and if appropriate re-cycling facilities were made available (kerbside) then people would use them as it was the right thing to do. The right-wing view would be (and was) that charging for waste collection was the most efficient way to force people to re-cycle more. Now, I do simplify somewhat. There was the additional issue that this was perceived as an extra tax, but nonetheless the left-wing view was that no incentive was required to make people recycle/reduce/reuse.

Strangely I find myself taking a more right-wing view then perhaps I would have when I was younger. I do believe health and education are exceptions, as for those I believe in absolute equality of access (so really I think they should be completely free). However for most other things, I do believe people do need incentives to contribute to society. Michael McDowell was once harshly criticised for using the phrase "Inequality is an incentive", but I do find I agree with it.

However having said all that, FF/FG/Lab are all pretty close to the centre, believing in social protections while also believing in incentives, though they would be loath to admit that inequality is an incentive. FG leans towards people needing incentives, and so wants to keep taxes low to encourage people to work harder, and innovate by taking risks, because that may give them a better standard of living. Labour leans towards trusting that people will work hard and innovate because they want to contribute to society even if that means that they don't get much more of a living standard increase as the person who for whatever reason cannot work as hard or innovate. FF floats in the middle, and would shift left or right as required.

Ix.

That political compass is fairly interesting - I sat with Nelson Mandela (cant remember the exact "scores" but it was in the same square as the man)- which to be honest I found pretty strange.

Good link there poster - even if only for a bit of teasing out of ones opinions on things.

Economic Left/Right: 1.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.82