The Hazards of Belief

smacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or they would slap a 2% levy on all birth certs, marriage certs, and death certs to cover the cost of the big 3 churching occasions.

I'd be happy to simply see charitable tax exemption for the advancement of religion kicked into touch. Look what its done for the Scientologists over here; https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/troubled-scientology-church-in-ireland-is-now-1m-in-red-26381788.html

ohnonotgmail

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What on Earth has making sense got to go with government imposed levys? :P

fair point, well made.

Huntergonzo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

When countmeout was a thing, I was thinking along similar lines, but since it's gone I do regret not having done it.

1. I know that, you know that. I want THEM to get an idea of how disgusted we are with them. Not just too lazy to go to mass, or whatever. They were getting quite a few applications to 'defect' here, and then they stopped it.

2. The countmeout process was very easy, cost them money/time/hassle to do, and didn't cost you anything.

3. They can't use baptismal rolls for membership figures anyway, as they're not correlated with death records.

Well look I can certainly understand your point of view, I want absolutely nothing to do with the RCC either, they're a horrendous organisation.

For me though, I decided I want no recognition from them good, bad or indifferent, I want nothing from them. I just decided that I was no longer a member and I'm content with that.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why, none, of course. Merely promoting itself and perpetuating the money-grabbing charade is, for some reason, recognised by law as a 'charitable purpose'.

It's disgraceful really, so many people and legitimate businesses crucified paying tax and a hoard of devious charlatans known the RCC pays none. The world is a strange aul place!

robindch

Huntergonzo wrote: »

What tax if any does the church currently pay?

Very little, so far as I'm aware. Their employees pay income tax, but the institutional church? Do they pay PRSI on wages to their employees? Stamp duty on property purchases? CAT/CGT? No doubt they're VAT-registered, so they wouldn't pay VAT.

Given the limited institutional reporting requirements that most churches adhere to, it's hard to know whether they pay any tax at all.

robindch

Three years old, but still worth a facepalm.

Elderly Brazilian Woman Accidentally Prays to Elrond

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2017/01/05/an-elderly-brazilian-woman-has-been-accidentally-praying-every-day-to-an-elf-from-lord-of-the-rings/

Friendly Atheist wrote:

An elderly Brazilian woman, who spends time every day praying to a statue of Saint Anthony, is about to get a big surprise. Because upon closer inspection of the statue, Gabriela Brandão discovered that her daughter’s great-grandmother was actually praying to Elrond, an elf from Lord of the Rings. The good news is that the prayers were equally as effective. For her sake, I hope she didn’t also confuse Yoda’s ears with the outstretched arms of a crucified Jesus.

Peregrinus

Huntergonzo wrote: »

What tax if any does the church currently pay?

You can't really ask this question about "the church" as though it were a single corporate entity; it isn't. It's a surprising decentralised collection of entities whose tax status varies. But, for the most part, looking at dioceses and religious congregations:

robindch wrote: »

Very little, so far as I'm aware. Their employees pay income tax, but the institutional church? Do they pay PRSI on wages to their employees?

Yes.

robindch wrote: »

Stamp duty on property purchases?

Yes, I think so. Open to correction.

robindch wrote: »

CAT/CGT?

Generally not; they get a charitable exemption.

robindch wrote: »

No doubt they're VAT-registered, so they wouldn't pay VAT.

You can only register for VAT if you're carrying on a business, which dioceses, religious orders, etc are generally not to be doing. There is a Charities VAT Compensation Scheme in which church-linked bodies which are registered charities can participate. Church-linked bodies which do carry on a business (e.g. Veritas Publications) can register for VAT, but they are not charities and don't get the various tax breaks that charities get.

robindch wrote: »

Given the limited institutional reporting requirements that most churches adhere to, it's hard to know whether they pay any tax at all.

Those that are charities and are claiming charitable tax breaks have to submit audited accounts to the Revenue. So they do have reporting requirements; just not public reporting requirements.

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

Those that are charities and are claiming charitable tax breaks have to submit audited accounts to the Revenue. So they do have reporting requirements; just not public reporting requirements.

Registered charities are obliged to file reports that can be accessed by the public AFAIK
https://www.charitiesregulator.ie/en/information-for-the-public/search-the-charities-register

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

Do they pay PRSI on wages to their employees?

Somewhat bizarrely, there is a specific class of PRSI contributions exclusively for Church of Ireland ministers:

PRSI Class E

People within CLASS E:

Ministers of religion employed by the Church of Ireland Representative Body

Class E Benefits

Illness Benefit
Maternity Benefit *
Adoptive Benefit *
Health and Safety Benefit
Invalidity Pension
Widow/Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's (Contributory) Pension *
Guardian's Payment (Contributory) *
State Pension (Contributory)
State Pension (Transition)
Treatment Benefit
Carer's Benefit *

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PRSI---Pay-Related-Social-Insurance---Contributions-and-Clas.aspx

No idea about the RCC but they wouldn't be needing these * ones, would they

ohnonotgmail

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Somewhat bizarrely, there is a specific class of PRSI contributions exclusively for Church of Ireland ministers:



https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PRSI---Pay-Related-Social-Insurance---Contributions-and-Clas.aspx

No idea about the RCC but they wouldn't be needing these * ones, would they

They have female ministers in the CoI. Though it could still be minister singular. And I'm not sure what you mean in relation to adoption benefit.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/charities-and-sports-bodies/charitable-tax-exemption/index.aspx

You can apply for charitable tax exemption if the Charities Regulatory Authority (CRA) has granted charitable status to your charity.

This means that you may be exempt from paying:

Income Tax (IT)
Corporation Tax (CT)
Capital Gains Tax (CGT)
Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT)
Capital Acquisitions Tax (CAT)
Dividend Withholding Tax (DWT)
Professional Services Withholding TAX (PSWT)
Stamp Duty

If your charity has employees, you will have to pay Income Tax under the PAYE system. Please see the Guide to Pay As You Earn (PAYE) in the Employing people section of our website.

There is no general VAT exemption for charities. There are several specific reliefs from VAT which may relate to charitable activities. Further information is available in the guide VAT and Charities.

You may also avail of the Charities VAT Compensation Scheme.

Hotblack Desiato

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

They have female ministers in the CoI. Though it could still be minister singular. And I'm not sure what you mean in relation to adoption benefit.

Yes I'm aware the CoI permits female ministers... Doubt RC priests are allowed adopt kids, that's an idea which has never crossed my mind before.

Huntergonzo

Peregrinus wrote: »

You can't really ask this question about "the church" as though it were a single corporate entity; it isn't. It's a surprising decentralised collection of entities whose tax status varies. But, for the most part, looking at dioceses and religious congregations:

Ok fair enough, does the RCC pay property tax as a matter of interest?

Would bring in a lot of useful revenue if they do.

Peregrinus

There's nothing in the Adoptions Acts to prevent a Catholic priest from being approved as an adoptive parent, although (a) it's unthinkable that he would actually be approved by the Adoption Board and (b) it's unthinkable that his bishop would allow him to adopt a child while still in ministry. So it ain't gonna happen.

But legally, in theory, it could happen, and so in theory a cleric could qualify for adoption benefit. And because this is a theoretical possiblity, he will pay social insurance contributions on that basis (as do many other people who, in reality, will never be approved as adoptive parents).

Residential property tax: there's an exemption for residential properties owned by charities which are adapted to people with special needs. So, a church-run scheme that provided sheltered housing for the elderly, or accommodation for people with disabilities, or supported sober accommodation for people with substance abuse issues, etc, would not be liable to LPT on those properties. (Nor would a secular charity running such schemes.)

But I guess the question is about clergy housing owned by Catholic dioceses. Yes, this is liable to LPT.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's nothing in the Adoptions Acts to prevent a Catholic priest from being approved as an adoptive parent

There's no law stopping him from getting married, either. Way to miss the point...

But legally, in theory, it could happen, and so in theory a cleric could qualify for adoption benefit. And because this is a theoretical possiblity, he will pay social insurance contributions on that basis (as do many other people who, in reality, will never be approved as adoptive parents).

Not all full time employees do so. Pre-1995 public and civil servants don't - hence no entitlement to maternity or adoptive benefit.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's no law stopping him from getting married, either. Way to miss the point...

No, that is exactly the point. You don't get a carve-out from social insurance contributions on the grounds that it is practically certain that you will never claim the benefits - only on the grounds that you are not entitled to the claim the benefits, as a matter of law. (And even then the carve-out has to be negotiated, agreed and legislated.)

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not all full time employees do so. Pre-1995 public and civil servants don't - hence no entitlement to maternity or adoptive benefit.

The rationale therefore, if I recall correctly, is that they got comparable or better maternity/adoptive pay as a condition of their employment, so it made no sense to require them to pay social insurance contributions to get a second benefit covering the same eventualities.

No such rationale, obviously, applies to priests. So they never got a cave-out from the social insurance scheme in respect of these benefits.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, that is exactly the point. You don't get a carve-out from social insurance contributions

I don't think anyone was suggesting they should.
But it is rather odd that CoI ministers get a PRSI class all to themselves. No JSB or occupational injuries benefit. Now maybe CoI is obliged to cover their salary if they trip over their cassock. But I'm sure it's possible for a CoI minister to be dismissed, so why no JSB? (and an insured person who resigns their job is entitled to JSB, after a waiting period.)

No such rationale, obviously, applies to priests. So they never got a cave-out from the social insurance scheme in respect of these benefits.

Would need to have a look at their contract of employment to be sure about that

Odhinn

Normally I don't get into religious festivals, but when I do its

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/sumo/tournament/202001/day11.html

TomSweeney

French teenager goes into hiding after insulting Islam

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-teenager-in-hiding-after-insulting-islam-online-0vl5hrs0m?wgu=270525_54264_15799550062254_549d5b6dc6&wgexpiry=1587731006&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Things are bad in Waterford and Lismore. Very bad indeed. What with Reiki and Satan doing the rounds. But cometh the hour, cometh the man. In the form of Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan - "We're finding our feet in this area", he explained in a radio interview:

Well, Alphonsus, who has taken to signing his letters "+Phonsie", has had a good think over his christmas pud, spent some more time finding his feet and is now pointing the finger of blame at "new culture" which he reckons is "trying to undo the truths of the entire Judeo-Christian system from the ground up”. He doesn't stop there either.

https://www.waterfordlismore.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Pastoral-Letter-Jan-2020.pdf

Hotblack Desiato

The church are milking the tragic events in Newcastle for all they're worth. Pretty sickening.

Odhinn

Grim reading

Asia Bibi, the Christian woman who spent eight years on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy, has released two photographs taken in exile, as she prepares for the launch of her autobiography on Wednesday.

Bibi was originally sentenced to death on flimsy evidence in 2010 after being accused of blasphemy in a dispute over a cup of water. Two Pakistani politicians were later killed for publicly supporting her and criticising the country’s draconian blasphemy laws.

Eventually in late 2018, Pakistan’s supreme court overturned her conviction, but that decision triggered violent protests throughout Pakistan and calls for the judges in the case to be killed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/28/asia-bibi-pakistani-woman-jailed-for-blasphemy-releases-photos-in-exile

volchitsa

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The church are milking the tragic events in Newcastle for all they're worth. Pretty sickening.

I haven't seen this, what's their argument? (And how come they didn't seem to question their possible links with Alan Hawe when the parish priest was reminiscing about the time he spent in their "happy" home?)

smacl

Odhinn wrote: »

Grim reading

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/28/asia-bibi-pakistani-woman-jailed-for-blasphemy-releases-photos-in-exile

I followed most of this as it unfolded at the time via amnesty. Horrific stuff on quite a few levels.

Hotblack Desiato

volchitsa wrote: »

I haven't seen this, what's their argument?

PP was all over the media with the usual hand-wringing

Then the next day the story about how the poor husband was at mass! I mean FFS who put that out there, it was hardly some randomer it was in ALL the media.

(And how come they didn't seem to question their possible links with Alan Hawe when the parish priest was reminiscing about the time he spent in their "happy" home?)

They were all about what a fine upstanding member of the parish he was, etc. and then pressurised the traumatised family of his victims to put them in the same grave as the monster who killed them. Classy.

Odhinn

Feeding off the desperate -

At least 20 people have been killed and more than a dozen injured in a crush during a church service at a stadium in northern Tanzania, a government official said.
Hundreds of people packed a stadium on Saturday evening in Moshi town, near the slopes of Mount Kilimanjaro, and were crushed as they rushed to get anointed with “blessed oil”.

Tanzania has seen a rise in recent years in the number of “prosperity gospel” pastors, who promise to lift people out of poverty and perform what they call miracle cures.
Thousands of people in the nation of 55 million flock to Pentecostal churches, whose main source of income is “tithe”, the 10% or so of income that worshippers are asked to contribute.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/02/crush-during-rush-for-blessed-oil-at-tanzania-church-service-leaves-20-dead

smacl

Odhinn wrote: »

Feeding off the desperate

Seems to be what organised religion does best.

robindch

In news that could only annoy the Russian Orthodox Church's principal benefactor, the Russian Orthodox Church is considering ceasing to consecrate weapons of mass destruction:

https://meduza.io/amp/en/news/2020/02/04/russian-orthodox-church-might-stop-consecrating-weapons-of-mass-destruction

Meduza wrote:

The Inter-Council Presence of the Russian Orthodox Church, an advisory body that helps draft church policy, has suggested ending the practice of consecrating both some conventional weapons and weapons of mass destruction. The proposal will be under review until at least June 1. Members of the Inter-Council Presence argue that consecrating weapons doesn’t reflect the church’s traditions and should be “abolished from pastoral practice.”

The Russian Orthodox Church has been reconsidering its policy on consecrating weapons since last summer. Russian priests are known for blessing many of Russia’s deadliest killing machines. In recent years, clergy have consecrated Su-25 fighter jets, Su-34 tactical bombers, and more.

Hotblack Desiato

Reminds me of this:

https://ifiplayer.ie/radharc-blessing-the-aer-lingus-fleet/

8:05 - In-flight prayer booklet must be very reassuring for passengers...

The plane-blessing action starts at 9:00. I wonder how long that 'tradition" (then barely 25 years old, at most) lasted?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Reminds me of this:

https://ifiplayer.ie/radharc-blessing-the-aer-lingus-fleet/

8:05 - In-flight prayer booklet must be very reassuring for passengers...

The plane-blessing action starts at 9:00. I wonder how long that 'tradition" (then barely 25 years old, at most) lasted?

Do we know that it has stopped even now? Aer Lingus planes still carry saints' names, after all; their latest acquisition, an A330 which entered service last November, is "St. Sillan".

Hotblack Desiato

Well it's a long time since they were able to park the entire fleet on the apron at Dublin all at once

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do we know that it has stopped even now? Aer Lingus planes still carry saints' names, after all; their latest acquisition, an A330 which entered service last November, is "St. Sillan".

Could make for a nice new company slogan. "Aer Lingus, getting you there on a wing and a prayer"

Hotblack Desiato

Ryanair: Have your ticket printed on a mass card for €20

Bannasidhe

smacl wrote: »

Could make for a nice new company slogan. "Aer Lingus, getting you there on a wing and a prayer"

As long as you don't access the plane via the stairway to Heaven.

robindch

smacl wrote: »

Could make for a nice new company slogan. "Aer Lingus, getting you there on a wing and a prayer"

As opposed to Ryanair's Boeing-inspired "With each take-off, bringing you one step closer to Jesus".

Hotblack Desiato

A guy in the anti-vaxxer thread has cited the bible as 'proof' that human longevity is declining.

I dunno at all,if you read the bible we used to be able to make 1000 years now we are only making 100 we seem to have got worse

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A guy in the anti-vaxxer thread has cited the bible as 'proof' that human longevity is declining.

Reminds me why critical thinking really needs to be introduced into our school curricula from an early age. Even regular thinking would be a start in some cases....

Odhinn

The new attorney general is a member of a controversial religious sect which continues to venerate its founder despite well-documented claims that he was a serial sexual predator, the Observer can reveal.
Suella Braverman is a mitra – Sanskrit for “friend” – within the Triratna order, one of Buddhism’s largest sects, which has been rocked by claims of sexual misconduct, abuse and inappropriate behaviour.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/15/new-attorney-general-suella-braverman-in-controversial-buddhist-sect


Also
http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/fwbofiles.htm#properfound

Peregrinus

Meh. Every member of that cabinet is a member of a sect that continues to venerate and indeed to sustain in power Boris Johnson, a serial liar, an abandoner of his own children and a corrupt abuser of public trust. Call me dull, boring and old-fashioned, but that's at leats as big a problem.

Odhinn

Crass stupidity

India's uncomfortable relationship with periods is back in the headlines.
College students living in a hostel in the western Indian state of Gujarat have complained that they were made to strip and show their underwear to female teachers to prove that they were not menstruating.
The 68 young women were pulled out of classrooms and taken to the toilet, where they were asked to individually remove their knickers for inspection.
The incident took place in the city of Bhuj on Tuesday. The young women are undergraduate students at Shree Sahajanand Girls Institute (SSGI), which is run by Swaminarayan sect, a wealthy and conservative Hindu religious group.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-51504992

Hotblack Desiato

Odhinn I did find it funny that your Guardian link fell foul of the Boards censor.

Replace **** with s h i t and it works!

Hotblack Desiato

Odhinn wrote: »

Crass stupidity


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-51504992

Tha'ts fcuking appalling. :mad:

Odhinn

A document that appears to give the most powerful insight yet into how China determined the fate of hundreds of thousands of Muslims held in a network of internment camps has been seen by the BBC.
Listing the personal details of more than 3,000 individuals from the far western region of Xinjiang, it sets out in intricate detail the most intimate aspects of their daily lives.
The painstaking records - made up of 137 pages of columns and rows - include how often people pray, how they dress, whom they contact and how their family members behave.
China denies any wrongdoing, saying it is combating terrorism and religious extremism.

Row 598 contains the case of a 38-year-old woman with the first name Helchem, sent to a re-education camp for one main reason: she was known to have worn a veil some years ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51520622


As China has a seat on the UNSC there's little to no hope for those it chooses to persecute, be they liberals, muslims or whatever.

Hector Savage

https://www.ucanews.com/news/parents-shocked-by-judges-comments-in-pakistan-child-bride-case/87156

Disgusting ....

Pawwed Rig

Hector Savage wrote: »

https://www.ucanews.com/news/parents-shocked-by-judges-comments-in-pakistan-child-bride-case/87156

Disgusting ....

Where are Michelle Obama et al for these issues? 'Bring back our girls'

Bannasidhe

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Where are Michelle Obama et al for these issues? 'Bring back our girls'

I am unsure where you think a former First Lady should be?

And the comparison to Boko Haram are not quite valid.
Although that makes f all difference to the kidnapped girls.

The case in Pakistan seems to have the power of the judiciary behind it, Nigeria was a terrorist extremist organisation - not a branch of the State.

What you have happening in Pakistan is religious minorities being ridden roughshod due to the power of a State religion.

A State religion whose laws have far too much influence over civil life and young girls and women are paying the price.

Remind you of anywhere?

Pawwed Rig

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am unsure where you think a former First Lady should be?

et al

Igotadose

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

et al

Is the current FLOTUS or Paula White and the current WH 'faith' office part of 'al'? The Vatican? I'd expect to hear from them, obviously. It'd help if you were more specific about who you mean.

Timberrrrrrrr

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Where are Michelle Obama et al for these issues? 'Bring back our girls'

Wheres Melania? Surely the current FLOTUS should be all over this right?


https://www.whitehouse.gov/people/melania-trump/

In her role as First Lady, Mrs. Trump focuses her time on the many issues affecting children. An unwavering characteristic of the First Lady is her aptitude for showing love and compassion in all that she does. 

Mrs. Trump is always bringing children to the forefront of her agenda. 

Mrs. Trump puts the emphasis on children and how we can protect them, teach them, and empower them.

On May 7, Mrs. Trump launched BE BEST—an awareness campaign focused entirely around the well-being of children. 

Bannasidhe

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

et al

I may be misinterpreting your point, and apologies if I am, but it looks a lot like point scoring.
Which in a certain light looks a lot like using these girls.

Perhaps you feel that 'et al' used the Boko Haram girls - but 2 wrongs et al...

Hector Savage

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am unsure where you think a former First Lady should be?

And the comparison to Boko Haram are not quite valid.
Although that makes f all difference to the kidnapped girls.

The case in Pakistan seems to have the power of the judiciary behind it, Nigeria was a terrorist extremist organisation - not a branch of the State.

What you have happening in Pakistan is religious minorities being ridden roughshod due to the power of a State religion.

A State religion whose laws have far too much influence over civil life and young girls and women are paying the price.

Remind you of anywhere?

Yes, Ireland !
Point negated completely, we are far worse!

Sure just last week my neighbour kidnapped a 14 year old local girl and now she is his wife, feck it anyway her parents said - the local priest said it's ok so
fair bloody dinkum !!!