Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
Why does "god" hate me so?
Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
I just thought it might be nice to start the New Year with one thread more than 50% on topic!
Ahhhh go on split the thread, go on, go on go on ....Hence why didnt respond to the request. The info is out there if people want to go look at it.
Here is teh schientific informationness from Mohamed, sadly this bit didn't make it into the Koran.
“If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.”
I'm guessing faceman with his Koran will end up making J C look like a real scientist in comparison!0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
You might have better luck asking in a religious forumWhy do I mention it? To get back to my original question and maybe some of the religious there will help me.
But regardless of that, I'd imagine that most religious will tell you to pass on whatever bits they themselves happen to believe.
Tell her that when you die your body goes into the earth and what made it comes back as plants and animals, and maybe even stars eventually.At some stage in the future, I am sure my little angel will ask me what happens when we die and ask about heaven etc.
Also, tell her that some people say that when you die, you don't actually die, but instead go to one of two special places, a nice one if you follow certain rules, and a bad one if you don't. And that other people believe that you come back as animals if you were bad, and other things if you were good. And some more think that you go to the place where your ancestors are. And so on. But that you don't believe any of this yourself.
I don't think that you need to compromise your own integrity for somebody else's delusions, or should lie to support them. Kids are clever and will spot it.
Anyhow, heavy stuff aside, congratulations!0 -
I only wish I had gotten to this thread sooner!Polestar wrote:My question for those people who claim they worship a god of peace is why did he (as the almighty and all powerful who knows all that was, all that is and all that will be; and, as my creator in a way I guess responsible for my actions) create me so. What has he got against my DNA that he wishes torment and torture unimaginable on my person for all eternity?Polestar wrote:At some stage in the future, I am sure my little angel will ask me what happens when we die and ask about heaven etc. I am gonna have to tell her that Jesus wants me to burn for an awful long time because I am not so sure I believe in all that stuff. How will I comfort her? How shall I explain to her that if Jesus is there, that while he says "love thy neighbour", that while I life a full and happy and good life, that Jesus will want my little girls dad to suffer forever. I am sure this will upset her. Maybe any Christians out there will help me out with what I will have to tell her.
And please dont try to deny this suffer for eternity stuff. It says it clearly and many times in the bible. So if you are a Chrisitian you either believe it or not. And the whole "you are just taking selected passages" crap just wont cut it.
Hi Polestar, congratulations on being a dad!
I don't think God created you or your DNA to be tortured for all eternity. You have chosen to reject Him. This is your viewpoint for the time being. It may change with a little help from God, so don't give up all hope yet!
You would be lying to your daughter if you told her that Jesus wants you to burn in hell. And no, i'm not denying the 'suffer for eternity stuff' either. In fact, I think Jesus is very upset you chose this path for yourself, just like you AS A FATHER, would be if your daughter chose a wrong path in life. Jesus would consider you to be a 'lost sheep', how about telling your daughter that, since it's a lot closer to Jesus as portrayed by the Bible, than what you are suggesting.
In fairness, based on the life an good works of Jesus, in the Bible, you would almost have to be gagging to burn for eternity for you to go to hell. He gave so many chances to those He encountered and I'm sure you'll have one too, so try not to worry about it. The worst thing you could do would be corrupt your daughter, if you have agreed for her to be raised as a Christian.
Now, i'll address some other interesting points made.Tim Robbins wrote:There is no reliable, objective scientific evidence for the existence of God, the afterlife or walking on water.
I can as an atheist accept (although I belief it's as close unlikely as you can get), I may have got this all wrong and God may exist and people like you may have been right.
Can you accept you might be wrong, and there actually may be no God, no afterlife and no walking on water?
Can I accept that there may have been no walking on water?
Sure, I wasn't there and didn't witness it.
Can I accept there are other aspects of Christianity that may be wrong? Certainly.
Can I accept that there is no God?
No.
When you have experienced God in your life, you would really be denying it to yourself, if you thought there wasn't a god. Now, i've heard the arguments from Wicknight etc.. that I wasn't experiencing anything, and then what about people of other religions who claim to also have experienced God in their lives, and so on, etc... etc...
I don't deny the claims of those from other religions to have experienced God, it's what I call the 'hand in the black box effect' (copyright JCB
) )
I can accept that I *may* be wrong about following Christianity, since all I can go on is scripture written by people albeit inspired by God, but that really is all I can concede.Polestar wrote:This is amazing. You [kelly1] have spent many messages claiming to know god, and rationalising his behaviour. And yet here you state clearly that there is no proof of god. How do you know he exists? And dont say "because it says so in the bible".
I think Kelly1 said that he didn't know God exists. Not to put words into Kelly's mouth or anything, but to know and to prove are different things. Based on what Kelly has said he certainly has experienced God in his life i.e. knowing He exists. But how can Kelly prove that to you other than through telling you?Latchy co wrote:We humans cant really comprehend our own exsistince except through phyisical, logical, scientific proof. If we were 100% sure that god existed wouldent we all obey his rules to the book?
Which is what Jesus proved through all the miracles, raising people and himself from the dead, etc... and yet here we are today!Ciaran500 wrote:Everything comes from god so anything we achieve we can't be proud of, cause god did it. But you said god had nothing to do with the girl burning to death on the last page. Either everything comes from god or it doesn't.Wicknight wrote:Kelly1: The rest comes from man and the fallen angels
Which also come from God ... can you see where this is going ...
Now, this I think, is the most interesting twist in this thread. The arguments made are very plausible and understandable and I don't claim to have a definitive answer to them, but just my views on the matter.
To start, I'll disect the Epicurus (341 - 270 BC) quote:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
I believe God is able to prevent evil
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
I believe God is willing to prevent evil
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
As kelly1 said, 'from man and the fallen angels'. Which yes, were created by God.
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
N/A
So in short, yes, I agree that ultimately every creation comes from God. However, it is the creation which has chosen it's path, be it humans or the 'fallen angels'. Hence, the existence of 'motivated' evil in this world. This is why I believe that the disasters of the Holocaust etc.. have happened.Dudess wrote:But the "free will" explanation only covers a certain amount. What about awful things that happen which have nothing to do with free will?
Now, to talk about 'unmotivated' or 'perceived' evil in the world i.e. the poor girl's dress catching fire.
I believe that God has created a self-sustaining world, universe(s) and so on. A possible explaination would be the Adam and Eve story, which I believe was a spiritual come physical independence or wedge between humans and God. I.e. That God will not interfere in our lives unless asked. I must add to that 'asked sincerely' and not qualified with a 'if you exist' criterion.
Now, a lot of things happen in a self-sustaining world. Some of which we perceive to be good, bad or unimportant.
Examples:
Lost girl finds her long lost family = Good
Girl eats Coco Pops for breakfast = Unimportant
Girl's dress spontaneously catches fire = Bad
Depending on who you talk to, and when, perceptions on the three scenarios may change.
Examples:
Girl: Girl's family are in fact psychopaths = Bad
Doctor: Girl eats Coco Pops for breakfast = Bad.
Girl's Mother: Girl was to be abducted, sexually assulted, battered & eaten by dogs after the ceremony, so in comparison death by fire not as bad (though not much better, admittedly) = Good (in a 'just as well' sense)
I believe we must pray to God to stop what we consider bad things from happening and to make what we consider good things happen.
Take the life of Jesus and the story of the lepers outside the city. Before Jesus was on earth, lepers existed and even while He was on earth they were still there. However, Jesus was able to change the destiny of those He encountered because they asked. Then after Jesus returned to heaven, I bet there were more lepers outside the city. Do ye get the point I'm making?
Millions of scenarios can happen in a self-sustaining world and without an overview of all possible circumstances (something we will never achieve), we just don't know which are the worst ones.Dudess wrote:What about when people use their free will to go too far? If god is omnipotent than he can also take away free will when things get out of hand.
You see, I think the one thing God can't do is take away our 'free will' from us. This is a world founded on a self-sustaining basis. It is what our 'spiritual' ancestory chose. I believe that when we pray to God, only then can He prevent bad things from getting worse. Take the Holocaust as an example, think of the millions more people that could have been murdered by the time the allies reached Germany.
Sure, define what you mean by 'out of hand'? I think that even one Jew killed by Hitler was out of hand. I think every murder is out of hand. Yet in a world dominated by evil this still occurs. This is why we must ask God to protect us.
Who knows how many other potential Hitlers have been prevented through the power of God.
To finish by responing to this hilarious piece from Wicknight:
Atheist - Why does God, who is supposed to love us, let bad things happen. I can't understand that and it is making think he doesn't exist.
Theist - God doesn't, humans do. God loves us
JCB - Agree
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - But look at this poor girl who burned to death. Why would God do that?
Theist - You can't blame God for that.
JCB - Agree
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - Why not? God made everything, he created a universe that facilitates this happening
Theist - You lack the ability to understand the workings of God. Therefore you cannot say that the way God designed the universe is not perfect. I can, for some reason, say that it is perfect
JCB - Disagree. God created everything in his likeness. Motivated Evil - we've brought on ourselves, Perceived Evil is one of many potential scenarios and is contextual.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - But that makes no sense. God controls everything, and everything can be traced back to God's initial creation.
Theist - You are only saying that because you want to reject God!
JCB - God only controls what we ask him to, on this earth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - What?
Theist - Yes you want to reject God and be selfish and have sex with monkeys and murder people with no moral code. I on the other hand believe we owe God everything and he owes us nothing.
JCB - Monkeys
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D. I do agree though that we owe God everything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - Er, what?
Theist - You need to pray. Pray and God will reveal himself to you. You are only an atheist because you have not allowed God into your heart.
JCB - Funnily enough I agree with that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - No, as I explained, your concept of God doesn't make sense. That is why I'm an atheist. And I'm still an atheist because your concept of God still doesn't make sense.
Theist - It will make sense if you believe
JCB - Lol! How about starting with any concept of God and working up from that?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atheist - What? How can I believe if it doesn't make sense?
Theist - There is obviously no point talking to you
JCB - I got a great laugh out of this!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nite Nite!0 -
-
-
-
Brilliant news Polestar!
Wow, thanks God. Lucky you stepped in when you did. Only 6 million men, woman and children or your 'chosen people' murdered.Take the Holocaust as an example, think of the millions more people that could have been murdered by the time the allies reached Germany...
Who knows how many other potential Hitlers have been prevented through the power of God.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
Yep, the belief of adults in the god created by Christianity is, to me, the same as the belief children have in Santa Claus. However, the latter is charming and innocent, but the former is naive and delusional. The god of Christianity is an ideal, it's how we'd LIKE our higher power to be. I'm an agnostic - I feel that there may be a higher power, but I'm realistic enough to face up to the fact that it ain't this merciful, benevolent god.
And I love the way the intervention by the Allies is attributed to god, but not the Holocaust, oh no. How convenient.
Back to AH with you. Your powers are useless here
The whole Santa Clause and Tooth Fairy arguement is a popular one. Yet to this day, I've not encountered any adult that believes in either of these harmless fairy tales (and I wonder would some take exception to my 'harmless' statement?). I was fairly young when I stopped believing in Santa - 17 maybe and I never quite believed in the tooth Fairy. You do a great disservice to anybody who has come to a rational decision that there is a Christian God - former atheists and agnostics included. If you could possibly prove that faith in God, especially one entered into later in life, is in any way regarded in the same manner or category as an infantile belief in the Tooth Fairy or Santa you might be arguing from a more solid base. If you cant - and I suspect that that is the case - you are effectively arguing that Christians suffer from some sort of regression into childish belief when they accept God. One would wonder why there aren't more people converting to Santaism.
I find it odd that a self confessed agnostic would deride a belief in God as 'naive and delusional' when you defined yourself as believing in something, a higher power. The fact of the matter is that you have less evidence for a belief in a higher power than a Christian does for theirs. Out of curiosity (and I'm not having a go at you), would you consider anyone who has a definite construct of God (e.g. a Christian God) or a complete lack of (atheist) as delusional? Is a foggy notion the only notion?
As for God's part in the victory of the Allies in WWII and the Holocaust, I'm not sure. I would that any massive and direct intervention by God (say in the form of a lightning bolt frying Hitler) would limit our free will - something I don't think is desired by God. No, I would put the actions of the Allies and the Axis - their victories and atrocities, squarely at the foot of man (albeit not completely discounting some forms of divine intervention).0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
Fanny if you want a more relevant example you could take Zeus and all the old Greek Gods instead of Santa and the elves. These old Gods are fairy tales and disney films now but it wasnt always so, it was certainly a religion for grownups. You dont see too many Zeus worshippers around, and if you did he/she would be the subject to the same kind of dismissal as a Santa-ite. What makes the Christian religions so different to that, is it any less rational?
You make a valid point. From a conceptual purpose I would admit that there isn't anything more or less rational in the belief of a monotheistic god over polytheistic gods. However, I personally don't subscribe to the idea that rejecting the the gods of Olympus leads to only one logical conclusion: all faiths should be rejected outright.
I'm unsure as to why Zeus and all the other gods passed from living beings to mythology. I argue that the belief in these gods died because of the fundamental untruth of the myths - what they offered wasn't real. Oddly, when you think about it, our beliefs on this matter briefly intersect at this point. The reason that Christianity as endured where other beliefs have faltered and, indeed, remains so relevant in these more enlightened times is because it offers truth and brings about a real change in peoples life as a result of Jesus. At this point we diverge, however.Depeche_Mode wrote: »Actually you do a disservice to the people who believed in fairies, for example Arthur Conan Doyle was convinced in the existance of fairies (in a funny twist this is the same man who rejected Christianity because he found the idea implausible) and I am sure if you go back just one generation you would have found quite a few people who would have also really believed in them.
He may well have believed in fairies. I'm not sure about his stance on the Tooth Fairy, though. Something specifically mentioned by dudess. In the context of this discussion the Tooth Fairy was used as an example of infantile beliefs. If you wish to discuss the merits of fairies, or if the tooth fairy would fit into a persons belief in fairies, then you can go to the appropriate section.Depeche_Mode wrote: »You misquote, Dudess actually said the idea of God created by Christianity is naive and delusional and I don't see anything odd about believing this at the same time as keeping open the possibility that the universe has a higher creator in fact I would assume that is the default assumption of most agnostics.
One thing Depech_mode, I never actually quoted dudess. I'm being picky, though. Something which you seem to be guilty of yourself if you want to argue the point further. I see little or no difference between a non Christian talking about the 'God created by Christianity' and Christian talking about God. I would have though it obvious that we are talking about the same thing.Depeche_Mode wrote: »I mentioned early the bomb attempt on Hitler's life which amazingly failed, God would not have needed a massive intervention to guide the conspirator to place the bomb somewhere that would have killed Hitler, and as the decision to kill Hitler was freely made already he would not have been limiting our free will in the slightest, but he didn't do anything. In fact the event had probably the same outcome as one could have had in which there was no such thing as a omnipotent overlord who loved his children.
I've missed large sections of this thread because I don't have the willpower to read long threads - just like this one
The idea of a 'massive' intervention from Gods perspective - an omnipotent being - is one to leave alone, I think. From our perspective it is more easily understood. Yes, hypothetically it wouldn't have taken much for sympathetic some bomb/ table expert (10 a Mark in those days) loitering in the room to have simply repositioned the bomb. While the result may have been to alter the outcome, the ramifications caused by such a seemingly minor action would have been unknown to us. It would be reasonable to suggest that God didn't intervene because:
a) leaving us to it;
b) it's part of a wider plan and any intervention would have scuppered this plan.
c) the ramifications of such an intervention could have had disastrous results beyond our sight.0 -
Your god is responsible for all the good stuff but gets off on all the bad stuff through free will. Its as simple as that. Evil is caused by humans but love and compassion are inspired by God. The usual theist cop out.JCB wrote:Where is the 'smugness' in that tell me? :mad:
Have you read tho old testament?I come from the premise that there are no *just* killings, neither can we ask God to kill anyone.
All of the terrible torture, pain and punishment *would* have been prevented, I believe, had people in a position of influence, availed of the avenues God-given to them by the sincere prayers of others (and themselves perhaps), without breaching anyone's free will, and I thank God for the fact that, eventually, without EVEN MORE BLOODSHED, those avenues were used by people.
This is exactly why I find your views worrying. You attribute all good influences to God and the nasty stuff to these fallen angles. God is apparently omniscient so ultimately these are also attributable to him and his omnipotence. You can't have your cake and eat it.I think the final point is nearer to my thoughts than the others. I wouldn't exactly call it a 'random world', but it is still one where God is omnipotent i.e. God is able to do anything that is in accord with his own nature, but that it is not in His nature to involuntarily interfere in our lives, since we have chosen not to accept this. The idea being that God created randomness to facilitate our independence.
But if God is omniscient then it cannot be truly random. God knows the outcome already.Good point, I would be inclined to agree, with others being other people. I am more to think that God provides opportunities or avenues - through 'randomness' - within our scope of free will, which will achieve our desired objective, when we pray to Him.
Whether, animals have free will, I don't have a definate opinion on, but within their range of intelligence or 'rationale' I would say yes.
Randomness or potential? Is there a multidimensional universe with possible outcomes? Is this just a complex version of the Sims for him?
God = miraclesBut Jesus did, to those who asked.
You see, for the reasons above, I don't consider Modern medical science and God incompatable, which you seem to.
Science = rational use of the evidence.
You may claim that God inspires medical breakthroughs but then again he also must inspire nerve gas as everything must come from God.You see, 'couldn't have known better' would be referring to human intelligence, not what i'm talking about.
???0 -
-
Advertisement
-
-
Like I said, if you wish to discuss such matters further, seek out those who care.Depeche_Mode wrote: »I can't believe I am saying this, but are we actually getting into an argument here on the employment roles of fairies in early 20th Century England?
Ah ha! Yes, picky indeed. Good stuff. Unfortunately that has little to do with your original point. Something you have now glossed over for a meaningless argument. Still, 1-1 on the cheap pointsDepeche_Mode wrote: »I'll see your pickiness and raise you one by saying again that you did quote her when she said "naive and delusional".Depeche_Mode wrote: »a) If this is the case and God refuses to intervene in events as importance as genocide and mass murder then I think it ridicules the idea of his omnipotence and any other times religious people claims he actually does intervene such as making a statue cry or Jesus' face appearing on a crisp, whoopdie doo for God.
b) If this is true and he has a plan set out with a set ending then I think this destroys the idea of human free will.
c) If this is the case and he can foretell even worse events in the future should he intervene then it indicates that he knows in advance the choices each and every one of us will make, even before we are born. This again kills the idea of free will.
A) That would be the whole point of free will. Again, I don't deny that God has influenced events, but it seems odd that you apportion blame at God's feet when it was men that did the killing. If you must blame anyone look no further than ourselves.
I've never mentioned anything about statues crying or crisps resembling Jesus, so I'm not sure why you are. Again with the cheap points? I'm sceptical of those claims to say the least. I do take exception to anyone questioning the divinity of my various Jesus shaped root vegetables, though.
Not necessarily. Without returning to the tiresome free will debate of a few months back, it is entirely possible for us to operate freely within a defined system. Bearing my original point in mind, it seems an odd line to take that God's lack of intervention is actually an arguement against free will.
C) In your book it does. In mine, fore knowledge doesn't equate to rigid predestination.0 -
-
-
-
-
-
Fanny Cradock wrote: »You make a valid point. From a conceptual purpose I would admit that there isn't anything more or less rational in the belief of a monotheistic god over polytheistic gods. However, I personally don't subscribe to the idea that rejecting the the gods of Olympus leads to only one logical conclusion: all faiths should be rejected outright.
I'm unsure as to why Zeus and all the other gods passed from living beings to mythology. I argue that the belief in these gods died because of the fundamental untruth of the myths - what they offered wasn't real. Oddly, when you think about it, our beliefs on this matter briefly intersect at this point. The reason that Christianity as endured where other beliefs have faltered and, indeed, remains so relevant in these more enlightened times is because it offers truth and brings about a real change in peoples life as a result of Jesus. At this point we diverge, however.
If you generalise that argument it would lead to all failed religions were fundamentally untrue. Also on that same vibe of reason you should conclude that Hinduism has the best chance of being real since its the oldest surviving organised religion. I for one think that Zeus might exist and that hes probably very unhappy that weve forgotten about him. 0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement