Why does "god" hate me so?

Tim Robbins · 10-01-2008 05:00PM

kelly1 wrote: »

God is the yardstick, not us.

There is no reliable, objective scientific evidence for the existence of God, the afterlife or walking on water.
I can as an atheist accept (although I belief it's as close unlikely as you can get), I may have got this all wrong and God may exist and people like you may have been right.
Can you accept you might be wron, and there actually may be no God, no afterlife and no walking on water?

Dades · 10-01-2008 05:01PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I only gave an example of how pride is wrong. And pride is wrong because everything we have comes from God but we act as if we're the supreme beings in this massive universe.

I thought it was the role of religion to tell us the universe was created specifically for us, and the role of science to remind us how insignificant we really are in the enormity of the cosmos...

Dudess · 10-01-2008 05:05PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Everything *good* comes from God. The rest comes from man and the fallen angels.

No, cancer does not come from man and the fallen angels. Floods, drought, earthquakes, tsunamis, none of these come from man and the fallen angels (unless you're really old testament and believe such natural disasters are punishments from god for humankind's sins, in which case god shouldn't have given us free will). And speaking of free will, that's another thing that comes from god out of which much that's not "good" has come.

5uspect · 10-01-2008 05:13PM

Dades wrote: »

I thought it was the role of religion to tell us the universe was created specifically for us, and the role of science to remind us how insignificant we really are in the enormity of the cosmos...

Is it Carl Sagan time again?

JohnnyChimpo · 10-01-2008 05:15PM

Billions And Billions............

Dades · 10-01-2008 05:15PM

5uspect wrote: »

Is it Carl Sagan time again?

And here's me thinking I'd made that up!

But it's always Carl Sagan time.

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 05:17PM

Again I ask myself why do I bother trying to explain Christianity/God to atheists. It seems that no matter what I say, you guys have an answer for everything. I've done my best to present a logical argument but I don't think any argument will ever be enough to convince an atheist of the existence of God. No doubt I will be accused of not presenting a valid argument as I have been before. So be it. As I said earlier, faith is a gift and God isn't going to give it to anyone who doesn't want it.

JohnnyChimpo · 10-01-2008 05:23PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Again I ask myself why do I bother trying to explain Christianity/God to atheists. It seems that no matter what I say, you guys have an answer for everything. I've done my best to present a logical argument but I don't think any argument will ever be enough to convince an atheist of the existence of God. No doubt I will be accused of not presenting a valid argument as I have been before. So be it. As I said earlier, faith is a gift and God isn't going to give it to anyone who doesn't want it.

this post just betrays your stubborn and narrow-minded outlook im afraid. surely you should bother because the Bible you endorse demands its followers evangelise the word of god to non-believers.

does it bother you that the other posters have an "answer for everything"? i would think thats a good thing, unless what you mean is that you dont agree with those answers, in which case you should attempt to refute them specifically instead of throwing your hands in the air.

you havent done your best to present a logical argument, youve just made some vague statements and then stubbornly refused to reassess any of your assumptions in light of the response youve been given.

so: you refuse to accept the possibility that you could be wrong, and have given no reasons which might provoke an atheist to reconsider their positions. kudos.

Zombrex · 10-01-2008 05:23PM

This has been such a bizarre thread

Atheist - Why does God, who is supposed to love us, let bad things happen. I can't understand that and it is making think he doesn't exist.

Theist - God doesn't, humans do. God loves us

Atheist - But look at this poor girl who burned to death. Why would God do that?

Theist - You can't blame God for that.

Atheist - Why not? God made everything, he created a universe that facilitates this happening

Theist - You lack the ability to understand the workings of God. Therefore you cannot say that the way God designed the universe is not perfect. I can, for some reason, say that it is perfect

Atheist - But that makes no sense. God controls everything, and everything can be traced back to God's initial creation.

Theist - You are only saying that because you want to reject God!

Atheist - What?

Theist - Yes you want to reject God and be selfish and have sex with monkeys and murder people with no moral code. I on the other hand believe we owe God everything and he owes us nothing.

Atheist - Er, what?

Theist - You need to pray. Pray and God will reveal himself to you. You are only an atheist because you have not allowed God into your heart.

Atheist - No, as I explained, your concept of God doesn't make sense. That is why I'm an atheist. And I'm still an atheist because your concept of God still doesn't make sense.

Theist - It will make sense if you believe

Atheist - What? How can I believe if it doesn't make sense?

Theist - There is obviously no point talking to you

Caveat · 10-01-2008 05:24PM

kelly1 wrote: »

faith is a gift and God isn't going to give it to anyone who doesn't want it.

A circular argument if ever there was one...

Dudess · 10-01-2008 05:26PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Again I ask myself why do I bother trying to explain Christianity/God to atheists. It seems that no matter what I say, you guys have an answer for everything.

We have. And our answers are well backed up and consistent - unlike yours, I'm sorry to say.

I've done my best to present a logical argument

No you haven't. You've just picked and chosen the posts you can answer, while ignoring the ones that are that bit more inconvenient. And the ones you've answered you either haven't answered very well, or you've deliberately taken out of context/misinterpreted.

but I don't think any argument will ever be enough to convince an atheist of the existence of God.

I disagree. Who knows? There MAY some day be a good enough argument.

No doubt I will be accused of not presenting a valid argument as I have been before.

I'm afraid you will be.

As I said earlier, faith is a gift and God isn't going to give it to anyone who doesn't want it.

God "gives" people the gift of faith? Well then you can't blame atheists for not believing in god because obviously god didn't give us this gift. So how are we sinning by not possessing something we have to be given, and which we haven't been given?

Zombrex · 10-01-2008 05:27PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Again I ask myself why do I bother trying to explain Christianity/God to atheists. It seems that no matter what I say, you guys have an answer for everything.

No, actually we don't have an answer for anything And neither do you. Which is the problem.

The stuff you think we should believe doesn't make sense. We don't understand it. You don't understand it. You can't explain it to us.

You choose to believe anyway. Why you do that only you know

We on the other hand don't. It doesn't make sense. We don't believe it.

What you appear to want us to do is simply stop asking these difficult questions and accept that its true even if we don't understand it and it appears not to make sense.

kelly1 wrote: »

I've done my best to present a logical argument

But you haven't. Every single argument you have put forward is flawed, some more so than others. That is the problem.

You want us to accept this as true despite the fact that the arguments for why it is true are flawed.

Why would we do this?

kelly1 wrote: »

No doubt I will be accused of not presenting a valid argument as I have been before. So be it.

You certainly will be. Its not our fault this stuff doesn't make sense and you can't explain it so it does.

kelly1 wrote: »

As I said earlier, faith is a gift and God isn't going to give it to anyone who doesn't want it.

That in of itself does not make sense.

Latchy · 10-01-2008 05:30PM

How do people from all walks of life who suffer with depression cope with all this thinking and philosophy ? We humans cant really comprehend our own exsistince except through phyisical, logical, scientific proof.If we were 100% sure that god existed wouldent we all obey his rules to the book ? Thats were faith comes into it .It's like a gamble of sorts ,do i believe or not ?

Dudess · 10-01-2008 05:32PM

Actually I don't know whether I can be called an atheist or not, because I do believe in the possibility of some form of higher power. But definitely not the god Christianity teaches us about.

Dades · 10-01-2008 05:34PM

Noel, it appears an irresistible force has met an immovable object yet again in the A/A forum!
(Which is which, though, don't ask...)

Peace!

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 05:39PM

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

this post just betrays your stubborn and narrow-minded outlook im afraid. surely you should bother because the Bible you endorse demands its followers evangelise the word of god to non-believers.

Yes it is always my hope that my arguments will help people to make sense of God. It never happens though. I'd probably be far better off praying for atheists instead of debating on a forum.

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

does it bother you that the other posters have an "answer for everything"? i would think thats a good thing, unless what you mean is that you dont agree with those answers, in which case you should attempt to refute them specifically instead of throwing your hands in the air.

I have tried repeatedly to show that God is not the evil being that people seem to think He is. I've been told countless times that if God exists, He is the cause of all problems in the world and that we have no free will. How convenient for those who want to avoid responsibility for their actions.

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

you havent done your best to present a logical argument, youve just made some vague statements and then stubbornly refused to reassess any of your assumptions in light of the response youve been given.

I'm being asked to expain God as if He could be explained fully. Nobody had full knowledge of God and he can't be made subject to any experiment to discover His nature. And that's not because He doesn't exist!

There are lots of mysteries concerning God. I'm just putting my trust in Him and I believe He only wants what's ultimately best for us.

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 05:48PM

Dudess wrote: »

We have. And our answers are well backed up and consistent - unlike yours, I'm sorry to say.

No, I don't see consistent/logical arguments especially when people tell me that we don't have free will. I just cannot accept this. Without free will, we are not much more that machines. I completely understand how someone would not believe in God but I don't see that as God's fault.

Dudess wrote: »

God "gives" people the gift of faith? Well then you can't blame atheists for not believing in god because obviously god didn't give us this gift. So how are we sinning by not possessing something we have to be given, and which we haven't been given?

I know that faith is a gift because I've experienced it for myself as I said earlier. As I also said before faith is given in baptism but can be lost if we deliberatley turn away from God.

Dades · 10-01-2008 05:50PM

kelly1 wrote: »

How convenient for those who want to avoid responsibility for their actions.

I'm starting to think you allow yourself to believe this type of negative stereotype, as you refuse to accept the possibility that someone who doesn't believe in God can be a decent, moral person like any 'good' Christian.

Latchy · 10-01-2008 05:50PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I know that faith is a gift because I've experienced it for myself as I said earlier. As I also said before faith is given in baptism but can be lost if we deliberatley turn away from God.

Ego can take the place of faith thertefore to replace ones faith one must get rid of the ego .

Dades wrote: »

I'm starting to think you allow yourself to believe this type of negative stereotype, as you refuse to accept the possibility that someone who doesn't believe in God can be a decent, moral person like any 'good' Christian.

+1 and my sentiments to

Dudess · 10-01-2008 05:53PM

But the "free will" explanation only covers a certain amount. What about awful things that happen which have nothing to do with free will? What about when people use their free will to go too far? If god is omnipotent than he can also take away free will when things get out of hand. I can't believe in a god that allowed the Holocaust, the Khmer Rouge reign of terror, Stalin's reign of terror, Rwanda. As I said, if god's omnipotent then he would have had the power to stop those things from going as far as they did.

Zombrex · 10-01-2008 05:53PM

kelly1 wrote: »

There are lots of mysteries concerning God. I'm just putting my trust in Him and I believe He only wants what's ultimately best for us.

And we don't because to believe that you first have to excuse all the problems, all the examples of wrong doing.

And the only reason to excuse all the problems is if you already believe it that God cannot do wrong.

Its circular reasoning.

You believe that God only wants the best for us. You then use that belief to excuse all the countless examples that would suggest otherwise. You then say that you know God only wants the best for us from looking at how he acts towards us. You ignore that the second part runs head long into the first part.

How do you know that God only wants good for us? Why do you believe that?

Evidence suggests otherwise, so how do you come to that conclusion in the first place?

It seems to me that you come to that conclusion simply because you want it to be true.

You want there to be a super powerful being looking out for us. A lot of atheists want that as well.

Heck I would love that to be true. But we don't let that desire blind us to the problems with the Christian ideas of God.

Just because humans want there to be a super powerful being who looks after us doesn't mean there actually is one. You can't accept there is one simply on the basis that you wish there was.

And without first establishing that there is one in the first place we can't say that what ever the Christian God is described as doing is good by default, no matter what it is. So we are left with the conclusion that the Christian God can be described as doing bad things. And if God can do bad things what is the point?

It seems far more likely he just doesn't exist.

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 05:59PM

Wicknight wrote: »

The stuff you think we should believe doesn't make sense. We don't understand it. You don't understand it. You can't explain it to us.

OK, God makes perfect sense to me and not to you. And yet we both supposedly consist of nothing but star dust. Makes no sense. I certainly don't consider myself to be gullible, far from it.

Wicknight wrote: »

What you appear to want us to do is simply stop asking these difficult questions and accept that its true even if we don't understand it and it appears not to make sense.

Are you actually questioning you own belief or are you trying to convince me of yours?

Wicknight wrote: »

Every single argument you have put forward is flawed, some more so than others. That is the problem.

And I see your's as flawed. Does that mean that one of us is less rational/intelligent?

Wicknight wrote: »

You want us to accept this as true despite the fact that the arguments for why it is true are flawed.

Why do you say my arguments are flawed? You are restricting youself to the material world and so you say that God is illogical. You don't *know* that the supernatural exits. I have no concerete proof of it either but I have lots of reasons to believe. I know that not very scientific but there's more to life than science.

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 06:03PM

Dudess wrote: »

Actually I don't know whether I can be called an atheist or not, because I do believe in the possibility of some form of higher power. But definitely not the god Christianity teaches us about.

And I'm saying that this is because you have a limited/false understanding of what God is. Do you admit that possibility? That you could be at fault?

Ciaran500 · 10-01-2008 06:04PM

kelly1 wrote: »

And I'm saying that this is because you have a limited/false understanding of what God is. Do you admit that possibility? That you could be at fault?

We keep asking you that but you keep ignoring it.

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 06:07PM

Dades wrote: »

I'm starting to think you allow yourself to believe this type of negative stereotype, as you refuse to accept the possibility that someone who doesn't believe in God can be a decent, moral person like any 'good' Christian.

Yes are know there are lots good and decent atheists and many bad so-called Christians. But whatever is displeasing to God is wrong. It really doesn't matter a damn what anyone thinks of me, it's whether I please God that matters because is the ultimate judge of the goodness of all actions.

Dudess · 10-01-2008 06:07PM

kelly1 wrote: »

And I'm saying that this is because you have a limited/false understanding of what God is. Do you admit that possibility? That you could be at fault?

I think if there IS a higher power, then to believe said entity is the god Christianity teaches us about is demonstrating a "limited/false understanding of what God is". It's more what believers would like god to be. The world around us is enough proof that the god Christianity teaches us about CAN'T exist.

CerebralCortex · 10-01-2008 06:09PM

kelly1 wrote: »

...I know that not very scientific but there's more to life than science.

Thats because your a theist. From my point of view (I don't want to speak for everyone else) as an atheist life is science. Or science is the study of life.

Dudess · 10-01-2008 06:11PM

kelly1 wrote: »

But whatever is displeasing to God is wrong.

How do you gauge what's pleasing and displeasing to God?

CerebralCortex · 10-01-2008 06:12PM

Dudess wrote: »

I think if there IS a higher power, then to believe said entity is the god Christianity teaches us about is demonstrating a "limited/false understanding of what God is". It's more what believers would like god to be. The world around us is enough proof that the god Christianity teaches us about CAN'T exist.

+1

kelly1 · 10-01-2008 06:15PM

Dudess wrote: »

But the "free will" explanation only covers a certain amount. What about awful things that happen which have nothing to do with free will? What about when people use their free will to go too far? If god is omnipotent than he can also take away free will when things get out of hand. I can't believe in a god that allowed the Holocaust, the Khmer Rouge reign of terror, Stalin's reign of terror, Rwanda. As I said, if god's omnipotent then he would have had the power to stop those things from going as far as they did.

But evil still happens through free will and God doesn't violate our free will. Evil is not God's doing. You seem to think that you know better than God how to run the world. You and I don't understand the ways of God fully.

Are you forgetting that God uses people as his agents for fighting evil with good? So He doesn't in fact sit back and watch. God also brings good out of evil. e.g. good people get an opportunity to care for the wounded any dying.

Why does "god" hate me so?

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