Chinese Delegates walk out of Greens Conference following Gormley's remarks on Tibet

Captain Slow

jimbo78 wrote: »

Typical of Chinas attitude to this whole thing.
First time I've ever agreed with Gormley

Think about it, in reality, typical Irish only knows drinking...... No culture..... Shame....

Captain Slow

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Looks like someone was told by Beijing to get some valuable propaganda footage for State TV.

What a great State? I guess.

Only has two channels...... Need a bit more than that for some valuable propaganda footage.

yawtin

edanto wrote: »

Yawtin, where did you learn that history of pre 1959 Tibet? Can you link to any sources on the net to support that narrative? You could well be right - I'm not saying I know any better - I'm just interested in the credibility of your claim.

Yes I do know it very well.

Dalai is a Mongolian word. it means Ocean.

The 5th Dalai Lama unified Tibet with the help of Mongol Armys, he went to see the second emperor of Qing Dynasty in 1652 and was granted the status of governer of Tibet.

note: Qing was established by Man ethnic group, which was one group that came from Mongolia.

The Qing emperor feared that Dalai would have too much power as he then became the political and spiritual leader of Tibet, therefore a few years later they decided to blance the power by giving Panchen Lama equal status as Dalai Lama. The reincarnation of new Dalai or Panchan had to be approved by Qing government representatives.

The 14th Dalai Lama, the one that you know of, was approved by the Republic of China Government. His closest teacher was supported by the British Colonizers in India.

When Mao won the civil war with the Chinese Nationalist Party/KMD, he disclaimed all Treaties with international Colonizers. The 10th Panchan Though this should apply to Tibet as well so he invited Mao's Army to come into Tibet.

The Tibet's Pro-Britain, slavey owner controled government still wanted independency, so they had war with mao's Army but lost all the battles. That is what you call invasion.

Read this yourself:The Dragon in the Land of Snows
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/shakya-dragon.html

On Dalai's "friendship" with Mao, you can see photos from this link: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=24547

He also wrote a poem in 1956 to praised Mao as the Sun, the Mother and the reincarnation of a powerful god. That is why many Tibetans still hung the photo of Mao in their room. Maybe he was the start of the movement of making Mao a god.

Captain Slow

Denis Irwin wrote: »

The Ambassador walked out soon after Gormley said the Chinese govt. should speak with the Dalai Lama. Who as we all know from that bastion of press freedom that is Chinese state TV is an evil man.:rolleyes:

Don't think you should talk about press freedom either, RTE reported the pro-tibetan protest at GPO last month which was on a very small scale, but none of yesterday's massive pro-china protest footage was on your so-called state tv, obviously your media is biased. On a higher note, all Irish government will do in such a international affair is following the Americans, cause they such a great country, it cann't form its independent opinions.

yawtin

I know you guys think the Chinese government as rather stupid when it comes to media control.

Guess what, most Chinese agree with you on that. The Central Propaganda Department of China is regarded as the most backwards department. The reformation of it is a battle between the old and the new, and it is controled by the oppositions of the current President and Prime Ministor of China who are very popular among Chinese people.

Read this article: Declaration of the Campaign against The Central Propaganda Department, by JIAN Guobiao. http://msittig.freeshell.org/docs/jian_guobiao_essay_utf8.html

The English Translation is at the bottom half of the page. the author is a very popular professor in Beijing University, where most of the "Tiananmen" student leaders come from.

Captain Slow

Cliste wrote: »

By calling for dialogue,

to be fair now, a bit of talking never hurt a politically unstable situation

Totally agree, but not now, it is not the right moment.

The foundamental thing is DL chose 2008 to speak out is to use the olympic influence to let his voice heard, but it is a bad decision because the olympic provides opportunity for people around the world to be united together, merge the differences in religion and backgroud, there should not be politics in olympic.

If chinese government gives in after the pressure from the world, I guess there will be something politic going on in every olympic in the future. Are we happy to see that happening? Can't we just have a fun fair, and perfect game and enjoy and forget all the gobsxxte!

Capital Slow

I can tell you many sources, but I bet you can't read them, cause the Irish can only read English.:rolleyes:

edanto wrote: »

Jaysus it's bad enough that every China thread is descending into the same kindof discussion without mixing Iraq into it.

Yawtin, mind if I repeat the questions?

Where did you learn that history of pre 1959 Tibet? Can you link to any sources on the net to support that narrative?

Here's an example site - it's very pro-Tibet, but it does have an interesting page giving at least two of the views on the history.

http://www.rangzen.com/history/views.htm
Sample

World Governments Do Not Recognize Tibet: China's Perspective
China asserts that no country has ever recognized Tibet. China also contends that Britain masterminded the Simla Conference (1913-1914) in collusion with Tibetan pro-British individuals. Both wanted to separate Tibet from China. At the time of the Simla Conference, even though the "McMahon Line" was negotiated between Tibet and Britain, at the end of the tripartite conference on Tibet's status and boundaries, Chinese officials who were present refused to recognize the "Line" on the grounds that Tibet was subordinate to China and had no power to make any treaties.

World Governments Recognize Tibet: The Tibetan Perspective
International law states that recognition can occur by explicit or implicit acts including treaties, negotiations, and diplomatic relations. Mongolia and Tibet signed a formal treaty of recognition in 1913. Historically, Nepal and Tibet had peace treaties. Tibetºs independence was also confirmed at the Treaty of Simla (1914) which was concluded by Tibet and British India.
In 1949, Tibet maintained diplomatic, economic, and cultural relations with such countries as Nepal, Sikkim, Mongolia, China, British India, and to some extent, Russia and Japan. Further, Nepal maintained an Ambassador in Lhasa and told the U.N. in 1949 that it conducted international relations with Tibet. In fact, Britian, Bhutan, India, and even China also maintained diplomatic missions in Tibet's capitol, Lhasa.
The Tibetan Foreign Office conducted talks with President Franklin D. Roosevelt when he sent representatives to Lhasa to discuss the allied war effort against Japan during World War II. In 1950, El Salvador formally requested that China's aggression against Tibet be placed on the agenda of the U.N. General Assembly. The issue was not discussed. However, during four U.N. General Assembly debates on Tibet (1959, 1960, 1961, & 1965), many countries (e.g., Philippines, Nicaragua, Thailand. United States, Ireland) openly stated that Tibet was an independent country illegally occupied by China.

Grudaire

Capital Slow wrote: »

I can tell you many sources, but I bet you can't read them, cause the Irish can only read English.:rolleyes:

Well if you're offering them in Irish I'm listening!

Capital Slow

Cliste wrote: »

...he wants to keep getting our money?:rolleyes:

If you think like that, you better think again.

Did you see the 6.1 news, if you didn't watch it the 9 o'clock one.

Oh, in case you miss that as well, here is the figure Ireland export €5billions:rolleyes: to China each year and import only €2billion, we can spend the 5 elsewhere, obviously Ireland is not the only country in the world produce software and potatoes, we can get on with it without buying from you, but your economy will not be:(.

Denis Irwin

Good to see the Chinese aren't afraid to use bully boy tactics in trying to prevent other countries in speaking out on Tibet by basically saying speak out about Tibet again and we'll take our money out. Well Mr Ambassador if you don't like what you hear in a country that gives everbody the right to free speech unlike your own country then you know where the Airport is.

Capital Slow

Cliste wrote: »

Well if you're offering them in Irish I'm listening!

With all respect, the message I am trying to confer is different source provides different "fact", the history we learnt in China is Tibet was ours and I am sure your argument will be our history lessons wasn't true from what you get on BBC, Wiki, or whatever, therefore we can argue this for ages and never come up anything.

But the thing is it is our internal affair, we don't need the nosy western media come in and comment, thanks very much.

plus the reason why we banned a lot of western press was preventing they are tearing our country apart when they try to inject a lot of human right into our thinking as what American does the best when they treat the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay detention camp. So, if the country can't even do what they promote, why bother campaigning about others.

meathstevie

yawtin wrote: »

Yes I do know it very well.

Dalai is a Mongolian word. it means Ocean.

The 5th Dalai Lama unified Tibet with the help of Mongol Armys, he went to see the second emperor of Qing Dynasty in 1652 and was granted the status of governer of Tibet.

note: Qing was established by Man ethnic group, which was one group that came from Mongolia.

The Qing emperor feared that Dalai would have too much power as he then became the political and spiritual leader of Tibet, therefore a few years later they decided to blance the power by giving Panchen Lama equal status as Dalai Lama. The reincarnation of new Dalai or Panchan had to be approved by Qing government representatives.

The 14th Dalai Lama, the one that you know of, was approved by the Republic of China Government. His closest teacher was supported by the British Colonizers in India.

When Mao won the civil war with the Chinese Nationalist Party/KMD, he disclaimed all Treaties with international Colonizers. The 10th Panchan Though this should apply to Tibet as well so he invited Mao's Army to come into Tibet.

The Tibet's Pro-Britain, slavey owner controled government still wanted independency, so they had war with mao's Army but lost all the battles. That is what you call invasion.

Read this yourself:The Dragon in the Land of Snows
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/shakya-dragon.html

On Dalai's "friendship" with Mao, you can see photos from this link: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=24547

He also wrote a poem in 1956 to praised Mao as the Sun, the Mother and the reincarnation of a powerful god. That is why many Tibetans still hung the photo of Mao in their room. Maybe he was the start of the movement of making Mao a god.

Eeh..is this the same Mao who organised "The Great Leap Forward" aka the "Feck Up and Industrial Disaster of the Millenium in China" and the "Cultural Revolution" aka "Nearly Fatal National Brain Amputation".

Even if what is being being claimed on the Chinese side of the conflict is true then we really should't give a hoot about the whole lot. One dictatorship replaced the other and to hell with the disposable little people. :rolleyes:

leninbenjamin

Capital Slow wrote: »

Oh, in case you miss that as well, here is the figure Ireland export €5billions:rolleyes: to China each year and import only €2billion, we can spend the 5 elsewhere, obviously Ireland is not the only country in the world produce software and potatoes, we can get on with it without buying from you, but your economy will not be:(.

where the hell did you pluck that figure out of? i've never seen figures that large mentioned before...

nor have i seen any that suggest we are a net exporter to China...

yawtin

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Good to see the Chinese aren't afraid to use bully boy tactics in trying to prevent other countries in speaking out on Tibet by basically saying speak out about Tibet again and we'll take our money out.

You have to learn who's being bullied first.
Western media has a track record of demonize China. We used to be quiet because we thought reporting negatively is the common practice of western media on just about anything, and they are just against a communist government.

This time we can no long be silent. It has become apparent that western media is actually against Chinese people in general and our voice gets very little respect.

Fine, said many of us around the world. We will do whatever it takes for them to realise they can no longer neglect our opinion. That is why there has being 5 pro-china protests around the world this weekend, and that is why at least 5 more protests will be on the way next week. Well you probably wont hear anything about any of them, because your stupid media does not want you to hear our opinion.

the_syco

Capital Slow wrote: »

plus the reason why we banned a lot of western press was preventing they are tearing our country apart when they try to inject a lot of human right into our thinking as what American does the best when they treat the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay detention camp. So, if the country can't even do what they promote, why bother campaigning about others.

You banned western media due to one country?:eek:

Captain Slow wrote: »

Don't think you should talk about press freedom either, RTE reported the pro-tibetan protest at GPO last month which was on a very small scale, but none of yesterday's massive pro-china protest footage was on your so-called state tv, obviously your media is biased. On a higher note, all Irish government will do in such a international affair is following the Americans, cause they such a great country, it cann't form its independent opinions.

Did the chinese (most of whom I can see are all students) tell the press about the pro-China "protest" happening on a Saturday?

Capital Slow wrote: »

I can tell you many sources, but I bet you can't read them, cause the Irish can only read English.:rolleyes:

Due to the English.

yawtin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

where the hell did you pluck that figure out of? i've never seen figures that large mentioned before...

nor have i seen any that suggest we are a net exporter to China...

the fact that you did not see it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Next time you should ask the CEO of Kerry group if their butter is on display in Carrefour in China.

God bless the enterprise board of Ireland. They tried so hard to get into the Chinese market and now Gormley's remark is probably giving them a heart attack.


I guess national interest is not Irish people's cup of tea after all

Pro C

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Good to see the Chinese aren't afraid to use bully boy tactics in trying to prevent other countries in speaking out on Tibet by basically saying speak out about Tibet again and we'll take our money out. Well Mr Ambassador if you don't like what you hear in a country that gives everbody the right to free speech unlike your own country then you know where the Airport is.

Here is one for you, my friend Captain Slow was trying to express his opinion on this thread, and his profile was subsequently banned from Boards.ie because he is pro-China, so we can't really enjoy free speech here either, it is really a slap on your own face, I am afraid.

Oh, in this case you know where the Airport is.

Denis Irwin

Pro C wrote: »

Here is one for you, my friend Captain Slow was trying to express his opinion on this thread, and his profile was subsequently banned from Boards.ie because he is pro-China, so we can't really enjoy free speech here either, it is really a slap on your own face, I am afraid.

Oh, in this case you know where the Airport is.

I'm Irish and from Dublin so thanks I do know where the Airport is and don't need to use it as I'm not going on holidays just yet.:)

leninbenjamin

yawtin wrote: »

the fact that you did not see it does not mean it doesn't exist.

if you'll look carefully in my previous post I linked to the most recent article i could remember that went into such details about the level of trade with China (albiet i should have made it more obvious). the TWO WAY trade for 2006 was around 5.5 with, the net effect on CHINA's side. unless you can provide me with definitive evidence to the contrary I will continue to believe you just plucked those figures out of your ass.

i once saw something out of the corner of my that looked like the flying spaghetti monster sitting on my windowsill outside. therefore the flying spaghetti monster must exist!!!

Pro C

leninbenjamin wrote: »

where the hell did you pluck that figure out of? i've never seen figures that large mentioned before...

nor have i seen any that suggest we are a net exporter to China...

It is in the 6.1 news, it may be on 9 o'clock again.

It doesn't really matter whether net exporter or not, just say Ireland export 2 billions to china each year, how many percentage does that account for Total Irish export? Whereas 5billion for china is a drop of the ocean.

China can really can live without those 5billion.

Unpossible

Capital Slow wrote:

Don't think you should talk about press freedom either, RTE reported the pro-tibetan protest at GPO last month which was on a very small scale, but none of yesterday's massive pro-china protest footage was on your so-called state tv, obviously your media is biased.

Did any of you notify the media about the protest?

leninbenjamin

Pro C wrote: »

It is in the 6.1 news, it may be on 9 o'clock again.

at least someone could tell me where the figures came from :rolleyes:. cheers for that, i'll have a look later.

Pro C wrote: »

It doesn't really matter whether net exporter or not, just say Ireland export 2 billions to china each year, how many percentage does that account for Total Irish export? Whereas 5billion for china is a drop of the ocean.

China can really can live without those 5billion.

i dont think you understand how the balance of payments work or the impact a negative balance can have on ones economy...

Mr. Presentable

I am shocked to agree with Gormley. Maybe he will present an opinion on the Charlton - Kenny issue. After all, it is the same situation, on an Irish scale - I invade some time ago, therefore since you did not throw me out I own your land.

Tomas_V

yawtin wrote: »

This time we can no long be silent. It has become apparent that western media is actually against Chinese people in general and our voice gets very little respect.

The Western media condemns Russia, USA, Saudi Arabia, Iran, in fact, very few countries have not been criticised.

Your voice gets little respect because it's full of hatered and anger. Things like the horrible journalism on CCTV9 really put us off. If you want to get respect, use respectful language.

Say things like "the supporters of the Dalai Lama" instead of "The Dalai clique". Or, "China asserts a historic claim to the territory known as Tibet", instead of "we own Tibet". Refer to 'critics' instead of 'enemies' or 'imperialist elements'.

yawtin

the_syco wrote: »

You banned western media due to one country?:eek:.

No it is actually the whole Europe and North America. French, German and British media are the worst but none of the other ones see to be independent.

the_syco wrote: »

Did the chinese (most of whom I can see are all students) tell the press about the pro-China "protest" happening on a Saturday?

I dont know. But somebody said the RTE said to the organisers that they were not interested. But anyway, aren't the journalists here suppose to go find news anyway?

Pro C

leninbenjamin wrote: »

at least someone could tell me where the figures came from :rolleyes:. cheers for that, i'll have a look later.



i dont think you understand how the balance of payments work or the impact a negative balance can have on ones economy...

I do have a Degree in economics to understand that, it is on a macro scale, but if you link the export with employement or reality, 2 billion is a lot, you can't net employement out. say if trades with China stopped by this whole thing, you can't shift those 2 billion that easily to another country and if you can't, either Ireland have to absorb it itself or have mass no. of people unemployeed, or may export talents out to other coutry, history repeats.

Denis Irwin

yawtin wrote: »

I dont know. But somebody said the RTE said to the organisers that they were not interested. But anyway, aren't the journalists here suppose to go find news anyway?

Here we go ''somebody'' said that RTE told the organisers they weren't interested. What you've just said is hearsay, you've commented all along that RTE said they were'nt interested when all along it was just hearsay. ''Somebody'' said RTE told them they were'nt interested.:rolleyes:

the_syco

yawtin wrote: »

I dont know. But somebody said the RTE said to the organisers that they were not interested.

In other words the person who was meant to inform the media didn't, and made up a half-arsed excuse for the lack of media coverage? Also, what day was the pro-Tibet protest on, by the way?

yawtin wrote: »

But anyway, aren't the journalists here suppose to go find news anyway?

They find news, but they don't magically know that a story is happening at X location, with no clues...

leninbenjamin

Pro C wrote: »

I do have a Degree in economics to understand that, it is on a macro scale, but if you link the export with employement or reality, 2 billion is a lot, you can't net employement out. say if trades with China stopped by this whole thing, you can't shift those 2 billion that easily to another country and if you can't, either Ireland have to absorb it itself or have mass no. of people unemployeed, or may export talents out to other coutry, history repeats.

well, to go off topic here slightly the current problem with the Irish economy is that we have little say with who and how we export due to the levels of foreign ownership in our economy. now quite a bit of the exports will be agricultural and frankly that's the bulk of the trade we have control over. the rest of the stuff is largely out our of our hands, and it wouldn't make a difference who we traded with because the companies exporting are foreign owned, and our economy in its current format offers little room from growth in that area, as multinationals are choosing to build factories closer to Asia to trade there rather than expand our facilities. I personally feel a trade shock would be good for economy, jobs would be lost in the short term yes but the incentives to grow would have to come from within rather than being dependent on FDI.

and then on the whole negative balance thing, inflation is bad enough in this country (i heard 5% today? considering the slowdown in growth and strengthening of the euro this can surely be attributed to the negative trade balance?). and as we are failing to encourage more FDI our net balance is going to worsen and increase the inflationary pressures (as we lack the monetary policiy control to do anything about it). thus that 3-4billion we invest in China's economy each would be much better off staying at home in current climes.

i'm all for Trade with China don't get me wrong (i had a lecturer dock me grades because he felt i was placing to much emphasis on trade with Asia lol) just not in it's current format. thus if China blacklist us it might have a positive effect on our economy, as it would force us to reconsider our economies emphasis (as FDI pressures would clearly not be enough to force a reopening of trade).

(ps. i'm a pessimistic fecker though and still an institutionalised student so i'm probably all wrong on this)

lonesome

The Chinese Ambassador walked out as Gormley referred to Tibet as a country.
however RTE only partially broadcasted the part of Human Right?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0413/green.html