Suggestion for gear recommendation threads.

fitz

Just a thought:

Gear recommendation threads can end up in off-topic discussions which don't really answer the original question.

If the OP of a "recommend me a <insert piece of gear here>" thread were to post the upper price range of their budget, perhaps suggestions could be restricted to the best gear the OP can get in that price range (or within an additional 20% say?). If a budget isn't specified, recommend regardless of price.

As Doctor J has pointed out elsewhere, recommending something way out of the OP's price range isn't helping them. Sometimes, you have to have something now to enable you to work, rather than holding up the work for something better down the line when you've saved for it. I tend to agree with the "buy quality and you'll buy once" but not everyone is in a position to do that, at least not all of the time, and sometimes you're willing to accept that it'll cost you more in the long run so that you can get going now.

On the other hand, the OP should give a price-range in order to get the best help they can in making an informed decision.

Maybe a sticky could be put up about this, cause it's a waste of everyone's time when these threads become a list of what everyone's favourite gear is, as opposed to opinions of gear in the range the OP is asking about.

teamdresch

Keeping the terms of a discussion too narrow tends to stifle discussion in my experience.
Plenty of recommendations were made in the poster's budget, and then the discussion turned elsewhere.
I'm pretty sure no animals or small children were harmed in the making of that thread.

Neurojazz

really? - everytime someone asks about sub 200 euro gear and the thread starts talking about valve compressors and what the difference is between mixing at 18 degrees celcius and 19 degrees i put a small cute furry kitten in a box for the river ;P

fitz

Not narrow, focused.
The OPs of these kind of threads are looking for help and opinions on the gear their looking at. Too often these threads end up in a negative debate over who's approach to buying gear is correct and the point of the thread is lost.
If people want to have a discussion on buying gear in general, start a new thread instead of bringing the original off-topic into a discussion which may do nothing but confuse and alienate a less experienced or knowledgable OP.

PaulBrewer

Neurojazz wrote: »

what the difference is between mixing at 18 degrees celcius and 19 degrees

None as far I know ....:)

seannash

thing is alot of people may be in a similar dilema and may have a bigger budget than the original posters price range.so instead of starting a new thread they just refer to that one
plus if people are telling him to get the higher priced ones it may just cause him to wait that bit longer and get them.
i do see your point though

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Just a thought:

Gear recommendation threads can end up in off-topic discussions which don't really answer the original question.

If the OP of a "recommend me a <insert piece of gear here>" thread were to post the upper price range of their budget, perhaps suggestions could be restricted to the best gear the OP can get in that price range (or within an additional 20% say?). If a budget isn't specified, recommend regardless of price.

As Doctor J has pointed out elsewhere, recommending something way out of the OP's price range isn't helping them. Sometimes, you have to have something now to enable you to work, rather than holding up the work for something better down the line when you've saved for it. I tend to agree with the "buy quality and you'll buy once" but not everyone is in a position to do that, at least not all of the time, and sometimes you're willing to accept that it'll cost you more in the long run so that you can get going now.

On the other hand, the OP should give a price-range in order to get the best help they can in making an informed decision.

Maybe a sticky could be put up about this, cause it's a waste of everyone's time when these threads become a list of what everyone's favourite gear is, as opposed to opinions of gear in the range the OP is asking about.

Fair point, I know I've been guilty of this myself - but as Teamdresch says, no real harm done, anyone can pull a thread back on topic.

fitz

Well, why not give the OP both options?

This:
"In that price range, the only two decent options are X and Y. X is cleaner with more headroom, but Y has nice character. Try them both out. Or save an extra €300 and get Z, which will give you the best bits of X and Y"

...is a hell of a lot more helpful than:
"Tbh, anything under €400 is a waste of money. Save more money and get Z."

Obviously these are exaggerated, but it's just an observation that there tends to be more of the second type of response.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

"Tbh, anything under €400 is a waste of money. Save more money and get Z."

But what if this, in the Poster's opinion, this is the case!!?

I'm not sure restricting anything on a public forum is of any use , except perhaps to avoid bruised egos.

Lads should say exactly what they think, and like me, be prepared to take it in the neck if what they say is factually incorrect.

sei046

I know what your saying. But also if the temperature goes up, the plates in capacitors and tubes are going to expand thereby changing their capacitance? Or The density of the air changes affecting how the speakers move?

Or! The speed of sound in the air is changed.

OR! the room as a whole expands changing the sound of the room.


Talk about OFF TOPIC!

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

I know what your saying. But also if the temperature goes up, the plates in capacitors and tubes are going to expand thereby changing their capacitance? Or The density of the air changes affecting how the speakers move?

Or! The speed of sound in the air is changed.

OR! the room as a whole expands changing the sound of the room.


Talk about OFF TOPIC!

'TUBES' huh? You're gone horrid American:p

sei046

sigh........valves...................

Neurojazz

i'm waiting for a thread like this...

'I've just brought an ssl mixing desk, where do i plug my technics in?'

sei046

But in all seriousness. This is the same argument as before TBH. It really comes down to people not wanting to disregard posts. If someone is saying something useless its hardly the end of the world to skip over it? Surely if you cant make up your own mind on what is helpful and what isnt you prob shouldnt be asking the question!

I understand exactly what your saying and its grand, it just seems a little unneccesary. It just means that other people looking at that thread who are in a different price bracket might get something from it

sei046

Neurojazz wrote: »

i'm waiting for a thread like this...

'I've just brought an ssl mixing desk, where do i plug my technics in?'

Theres 8 or 9 people here who can explain to you in GREAT detail, where you can plug your technics in. And whether they were eating egg salad, brownies or salad sambos

fitz

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I'm not suggesting restricting opinions.
But expressing that opinion isn't helpful to the OP if they've said they're upper limit is €400.

Just because someone has a €1000 budget doesn't mean they only have €1000.
It may mean that they are knowingly placing themselves in that range because that's what they're willing to spend. They might have €50k in their arse pocket.

What I'm suggesting is that the OP's lead is taken. If they give a range, give opinions/suggestions within that range, or slightly above it. If they don't give a range, suggest whatever you want, cause it's an open question.

It's like someone asking for advice on what 1.2 litre car to get, and getting people saying "you'll get a better drive out of a 2 litre, save up for one."

Doctor J

I find it frustrating sometimes that when people come in looking for assistance their question gets ignored and the must-have high end gear suggestions get wheeled out again and again. Discussing the latest and greatest is fine, but if someone is taking their first steps into this area it's little help to them to have things four, five and six times their budget mentioned. Yeah, they might be great but it's sod all help to the guy asking the question and, to be honest, is stifling discussion because there is a lot of equipment snobbery going on. There is a lot of gear mentioned which is out of reach of a lot of potential users of the forum and this can be quite intimidating to people new to this kind of thing. Discussing sub-€400 is quite valid, in my opnion, but any talk of it gets shot down in favour of the specialist high end stuff again and again. Everyone needs to start somewhere.

Can you imagine someone asking about buying a Focus in the motors forum and being told to keep getting the bus until they save enough to buy a Ferrari?

Doctor J

fitz wrote: »

It's like someone asking for advice on what 1.2 litre car to get, and getting people saying "you'll get a better drive out of a 2 litre, save up for one."

Great minds... :pac:

fitz

sei046

lol weird! I know what your saying. But can i just say that I probably have some of the worst gear here but I prefer learning about the higher end stuff. If your discussion is always about gear in 200 or 300 euro increments your wearing blinkers. You have to see why X is better even though it may be very expensive. TBH if your making money on hifi speakers its valid advice to say KEEP making money until you can double your budget because these are more than double the value!

If your not making money on your hifi speakers then maybe you shouldnt be looking to upgrade!

Doctor J

Maybe there are people who aren't making money though, maybe there are home enthusiasts who do it for the enjoyment and just want to step up a level. Should they not be able to ask about the better gear within a particular price range? It's great that the high end gear is discussed but it shouldn't be at the expense of people who aren't looking at running commercial studios, who have a budget and who are looking for first hand accounts of using gear at a particular level.

If you're not making money on your car maybe you should ride a bike, no?

fitz

If it's left open, every thread like this will go off topic.
You're right, it's important to learn why these things are better.
But surely that's better suited to a thread in it's own right: "The Anatomy of a PreAmp", or something like that, which explains a bit about the electronics involved, and why the more expensive one's sound better, that kind of thing.
Discussion like that is far more informative than snippets you pick up when a "suggestion" thread goes off topic, and it doesn't hi-jack the OPs thread, leaving them to bugger off to gearslutz to find an answer...

sei046

No....What Im saying is

If you move up in very small steps (which i have done) its more expensive

If your making money on equipment, its actually cheaper to hold out a while and get more bang for buck so your not upgrading again for longer

If your not making money it is DEFINITELY a reason to go for the option that will last you the longest and that is in reach if you save that bit more.

These are things that should be advised about, its not the gospel but to blank out opinions like that is not the idea of a forum. They are OF COURSE going to get the opinions on gear in the 400 or 500 euro range but whats the harm in giving the opinion that " Look if its possible You can save yourself a lot of cash in the long run by getting something that you can use for much longer and would suit your situation better because......"

Whats the harm in having both sides lads? The higher end comments dont block the lower end ones. We have LOADS of webspace lads dont worry.

And for the record I am a low ender so Im on your side! that Paul lad has money to burn dont mind him. Ive heard the sits his PMCS on Tannoy reveals and uses behringer for rack fillers

PaulBrewer

Doctor J wrote: »

Can you imagine someone asking about buying a Focus in the motors forum and being told to keep getting the bus until they save enough to buy a Ferrari?

It's an open Forum with quite a lot of readers I believe - anyone can pipe up with Lower end gear advice, but often don't.


Referring to the original thread re Monitors.

Your car analogy is interesting. However my point is not to go necessarily for a Ferrari but to at least aim for a Focus.

With monitors it's too easy to end up on a trike!

To recap my core points -

Cheap monitors are in my experience about the same quality as your average Hi Fi, but are generally more expensive. (Please allow me some leeway here as we're using non specific terms like 'average' and 'hi-fi'.)

If you already HAVE a workable Hi-Fi system i.e. one you can knock out reasonable mixes on there is, in my opinion, little point in changing UNLESS you're making a worthwhile improvement.
( Hopping from one tricycle to another, if you will! )

If you want to spend a couple of hundred it will be very hard to make any improvement, taking it you already have a WORKABLE hi-fi system.

Therefore why waste your 200?

Keep it, hang onto your current workable system and when funds are available, get yourself a low mileage 1 owner Focus.

No Ferarri talk at all.

Remember I've been there too.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

If it's left open, every thread like this will go off topic.
You're right, it's important to learn why these things are better.
But surely that's better suited to a thread in it's own right: "The Anatomy of a PreAmp", or something like that, which explains a bit about the electronics involved, and why the more expensive one's sound better, that kind of thing.
Discussion like that is far more informative than snippets you pick up when a "suggestion" thread goes off topic, and it doesn't hi-jack the OPs thread, leaving them to bugger off to gearslutz to find an answer...

Fair point again really. However if there were a shower of ON TOPIC replies and no further answers to OFF TOPIC ones this wouldn't be an issue.

However poster chose to reply and chuck in their tuppence worth as they feel and that's kinda how a forum works?

PaulBrewer

Doctor J wrote: »

Maybe there are people who aren't making money though, maybe there are home enthusiasts who do it for the enjoyment and just want to step up a level. Should they not be able to ask about the better gear within a particular price range? It's great that the high end gear is discussed but it shouldn't be at the expense of people who aren't looking at running commercial studios, who have a budget and who are looking for first hand accounts of using gear at a particular level.

If you're not making money on your car maybe you should ride a bike, no?

Doctor J, anything that ANYBODY says here doesn't stop ANYONE else saying what they think. So if people have educated opinions on Lower end stuff they should express them.

Your criticisms may be better aimed at people who DON'T post, rather than ones who do, perhaps?

sei046

My god paul your on a roll with yourself. Yea to be fair people seem to feel intimidated when lets face it lads...This is a forum. The worst thats going to happen is some Neve owning head is going to say that "Its sh*te" and then the discussion starts about why or why it isnt sh*te! why? Because its a FORUM! Coming for the greek words FO and RUM meaning " sh*te Explain "

Doctor J

PaulBrewer wrote: »

It's an open Forum with quite a lot of readers I believe - anyone can pipe up with Lower end gear advice, but often don't.

And that is precisely my point, to a novice or casual reader, when a guy asks about spending €200 and pretty much gets ignored it discourages anyone else to post about similar things. The forum is turning into a little elitist corner where people at an enthusiast or hobbyist level are getting squished out because their gear might as well be a hi-fi, or there's no point in them doing anything until they've got 10 grand to spend. That's just hugely discouraging.

The forum should cater to all levels but often doesn't, the monitor thread being a glaring example.

sei046

TBH Doc anything of major high end gets very little discussion either. If there are so many low enders why arent they discussing things! We outnumber the big heads!

Doctor J

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Your criticisms may be better aimed at people who DON'T post, rather than ones who do, perhaps?

Not at all, nothing said is just as useless as something wildly irrelevant to the point.

As I've said more than once, it's great that there is knowledge of high end gear here, but if someone asks a question then answers should be somewhat relevant to it, no?

Doctor J

sei046 wrote: »

TBH Doc anything of major high end gets very little discussion either. If there are so many low enders why arent they discussing things!

That is my point. To newcomers and enthusiasts, the forum can be an intimidating place. Why would the monitor guy ask a question again when he gets told pretty much to multply his budget by at least three times or not bother? If a guy has a budget then you try to help within the budget, not just say don't bother until you get a lucky scratchcard.

Really expensive gear is better than really cheap gear.

OK, I think we can all agree on that, now can we move on?