Suggestion for gear recommendation threads.

fitz · 09-06-2008 11:02AM #1

Just a thought:

Gear recommendation threads can end up in off-topic discussions which don't really answer the original question.

If the OP of a "recommend me a <insert piece of gear here>" thread were to post the upper price range of their budget, perhaps suggestions could be restricted to the best gear the OP can get in that price range (or within an additional 20% say?). If a budget isn't specified, recommend regardless of price.

As Doctor J has pointed out elsewhere, recommending something way out of the OP's price range isn't helping them. Sometimes, you have to have something now to enable you to work, rather than holding up the work for something better down the line when you've saved for it. I tend to agree with the "buy quality and you'll buy once" but not everyone is in a position to do that, at least not all of the time, and sometimes you're willing to accept that it'll cost you more in the long run so that you can get going now.

On the other hand, the OP should give a price-range in order to get the best help they can in making an informed decision.

Maybe a sticky could be put up about this, cause it's a waste of everyone's time when these threads become a list of what everyone's favourite gear is, as opposed to opinions of gear in the range the OP is asking about.

teamdresch · 09-06-2008 11:05AM

Keeping the terms of a discussion too narrow tends to stifle discussion in my experience.
Plenty of recommendations were made in the poster's budget, and then the discussion turned elsewhere.
I'm pretty sure no animals or small children were harmed in the making of that thread.

Neurojazz · 09-06-2008 11:10AM

really? - everytime someone asks about sub 200 euro gear and the thread starts talking about valve compressors and what the difference is between mixing at 18 degrees celcius and 19 degrees i put a small cute furry kitten in a box for the river ;P

fitz · 09-06-2008 11:16AM

Not narrow, focused.
The OPs of these kind of threads are looking for help and opinions on the gear their looking at. Too often these threads end up in a negative debate over who's approach to buying gear is correct and the point of the thread is lost.
If people want to have a discussion on buying gear in general, start a new thread instead of bringing the original off-topic into a discussion which may do nothing but confuse and alienate a less experienced or knowledgable OP.

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 11:18AM

Neurojazz wrote: »

what the difference is between mixing at 18 degrees celcius and 19 degrees

None as far I know ....:)

seannash · 09-06-2008 11:19AM

thing is alot of people may be in a similar dilema and may have a bigger budget than the original posters price range.so instead of starting a new thread they just refer to that one
plus if people are telling him to get the higher priced ones it may just cause him to wait that bit longer and get them.
i do see your point though

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 11:20AM

fitz wrote: »

Just a thought:

Gear recommendation threads can end up in off-topic discussions which don't really answer the original question.

If the OP of a "recommend me a <insert piece of gear here>" thread were to post the upper price range of their budget, perhaps suggestions could be restricted to the best gear the OP can get in that price range (or within an additional 20% say?). If a budget isn't specified, recommend regardless of price.

As Doctor J has pointed out elsewhere, recommending something way out of the OP's price range isn't helping them. Sometimes, you have to have something now to enable you to work, rather than holding up the work for something better down the line when you've saved for it. I tend to agree with the "buy quality and you'll buy once" but not everyone is in a position to do that, at least not all of the time, and sometimes you're willing to accept that it'll cost you more in the long run so that you can get going now.

On the other hand, the OP should give a price-range in order to get the best help they can in making an informed decision.

Maybe a sticky could be put up about this, cause it's a waste of everyone's time when these threads become a list of what everyone's favourite gear is, as opposed to opinions of gear in the range the OP is asking about.

Fair point, I know I've been guilty of this myself - but as Teamdresch says, no real harm done, anyone can pull a thread back on topic.

fitz · 09-06-2008 11:26AM

Well, why not give the OP both options?

This:
"In that price range, the only two decent options are X and Y. X is cleaner with more headroom, but Y has nice character. Try them both out. Or save an extra €300 and get Z, which will give you the best bits of X and Y"

...is a hell of a lot more helpful than:
"Tbh, anything under €400 is a waste of money. Save more money and get Z."

Obviously these are exaggerated, but it's just an observation that there tends to be more of the second type of response.

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 11:31AM

fitz wrote: »

"Tbh, anything under €400 is a waste of money. Save more money and get Z."

But what if this, in the Poster's opinion, this is the case!!?

I'm not sure restricting anything on a public forum is of any use , except perhaps to avoid bruised egos.

Lads should say exactly what they think, and like me, be prepared to take it in the neck if what they say is factually incorrect.

sei046 · 09-06-2008 11:34AM

I know what your saying. But also if the temperature goes up, the plates in capacitors and tubes are going to expand thereby changing their capacitance? Or The density of the air changes affecting how the speakers move?

Or! The speed of sound in the air is changed.

OR! the room as a whole expands changing the sound of the room.

Talk about OFF TOPIC!

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 11:37AM

sei046 wrote: »

I know what your saying. But also if the temperature goes up, the plates in capacitors and tubes are going to expand thereby changing their capacitance? Or The density of the air changes affecting how the speakers move?

Or! The speed of sound in the air is changed.

OR! the room as a whole expands changing the sound of the room.

Talk about OFF TOPIC!

'TUBES' huh? You're gone horrid American:p

sei046 · 09-06-2008 11:39AM

sigh........valves...................

Neurojazz · 09-06-2008 11:42AM

i'm waiting for a thread like this...

'I've just brought an ssl mixing desk, where do i plug my technics in?'

sei046 · 09-06-2008 11:43AM

But in all seriousness. This is the same argument as before TBH. It really comes down to people not wanting to disregard posts. If someone is saying something useless its hardly the end of the world to skip over it? Surely if you cant make up your own mind on what is helpful and what isnt you prob shouldnt be asking the question!

I understand exactly what your saying and its grand, it just seems a little unneccesary. It just means that other people looking at that thread who are in a different price bracket might get something from it

sei046 · 09-06-2008 11:44AM

Neurojazz wrote: »

i'm waiting for a thread like this...

'I've just brought an ssl mixing desk, where do i plug my technics in?'

Theres 8 or 9 people here who can explain to you in GREAT detail, where you can plug your technics in. And whether they were eating egg salad, brownies or salad sambos

fitz · 09-06-2008 11:45AM

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I'm not suggesting restricting opinions.
But expressing that opinion isn't helpful to the OP if they've said they're upper limit is €400.

Just because someone has a €1000 budget doesn't mean they only have €1000.
It may mean that they are knowingly placing themselves in that range because that's what they're willing to spend. They might have €50k in their arse pocket.

What I'm suggesting is that the OP's lead is taken. If they give a range, give opinions/suggestions within that range, or slightly above it. If they don't give a range, suggest whatever you want, cause it's an open question.

It's like someone asking for advice on what 1.2 litre car to get, and getting people saying "you'll get a better drive out of a 2 litre, save up for one."

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 11:45AM

I find it frustrating sometimes that when people come in looking for assistance their question gets ignored and the must-have high end gear suggestions get wheeled out again and again. Discussing the latest and greatest is fine, but if someone is taking their first steps into this area it's little help to them to have things four, five and six times their budget mentioned. Yeah, they might be great but it's sod all help to the guy asking the question and, to be honest, is stifling discussion because there is a lot of equipment snobbery going on. There is a lot of gear mentioned which is out of reach of a lot of potential users of the forum and this can be quite intimidating to people new to this kind of thing. Discussing sub-€400 is quite valid, in my opnion, but any talk of it gets shot down in favour of the specialist high end stuff again and again. Everyone needs to start somewhere.

Can you imagine someone asking about buying a Focus in the motors forum and being told to keep getting the bus until they save enough to buy a Ferrari?

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 11:46AM

fitz wrote: »

It's like someone asking for advice on what 1.2 litre car to get, and getting people saying "you'll get a better drive out of a 2 litre, save up for one."

Great minds... :pac:

fitz · 09-06-2008 11:51AM

sei046 · 09-06-2008 11:52AM

lol weird! I know what your saying. But can i just say that I probably have some of the worst gear here but I prefer learning about the higher end stuff. If your discussion is always about gear in 200 or 300 euro increments your wearing blinkers. You have to see why X is better even though it may be very expensive. TBH if your making money on hifi speakers its valid advice to say KEEP making money until you can double your budget because these are more than double the value!

If your not making money on your hifi speakers then maybe you shouldnt be looking to upgrade!

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 11:56AM

Maybe there are people who aren't making money though, maybe there are home enthusiasts who do it for the enjoyment and just want to step up a level. Should they not be able to ask about the better gear within a particular price range? It's great that the high end gear is discussed but it shouldn't be at the expense of people who aren't looking at running commercial studios, who have a budget and who are looking for first hand accounts of using gear at a particular level.

If you're not making money on your car maybe you should ride a bike, no?

fitz · 09-06-2008 11:59AM

If it's left open, every thread like this will go off topic.
You're right, it's important to learn why these things are better.
But surely that's better suited to a thread in it's own right: "The Anatomy of a PreAmp", or something like that, which explains a bit about the electronics involved, and why the more expensive one's sound better, that kind of thing.
Discussion like that is far more informative than snippets you pick up when a "suggestion" thread goes off topic, and it doesn't hi-jack the OPs thread, leaving them to bugger off to gearslutz to find an answer...

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:06PM

No....What Im saying is

If you move up in very small steps (which i have done) its more expensive

If your making money on equipment, its actually cheaper to hold out a while and get more bang for buck so your not upgrading again for longer

If your not making money it is DEFINITELY a reason to go for the option that will last you the longest and that is in reach if you save that bit more.

These are things that should be advised about, its not the gospel but to blank out opinions like that is not the idea of a forum. They are OF COURSE going to get the opinions on gear in the 400 or 500 euro range but whats the harm in giving the opinion that " Look if its possible You can save yourself a lot of cash in the long run by getting something that you can use for much longer and would suit your situation better because......"

Whats the harm in having both sides lads? The higher end comments dont block the lower end ones. We have LOADS of webspace lads dont worry.

And for the record I am a low ender so Im on your side! that Paul lad has money to burn dont mind him. Ive heard the sits his PMCS on Tannoy reveals and uses behringer for rack fillers

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 12:07PM

Doctor J wrote: »

Can you imagine someone asking about buying a Focus in the motors forum and being told to keep getting the bus until they save enough to buy a Ferrari?

It's an open Forum with quite a lot of readers I believe - anyone can pipe up with Lower end gear advice, but often don't.

Referring to the original thread re Monitors.

Your car analogy is interesting. However my point is not to go necessarily for a Ferrari but to at least aim for a Focus.

With monitors it's too easy to end up on a trike!

To recap my core points -

Cheap monitors are in my experience about the same quality as your average Hi Fi, but are generally more expensive. (Please allow me some leeway here as we're using non specific terms like 'average' and 'hi-fi'.)

If you already HAVE a workable Hi-Fi system i.e. one you can knock out reasonable mixes on there is, in my opinion, little point in changing UNLESS you're making a worthwhile improvement.
( Hopping from one tricycle to another, if you will! )

If you want to spend a couple of hundred it will be very hard to make any improvement, taking it you already have a WORKABLE hi-fi system.

Therefore why waste your 200?

Keep it, hang onto your current workable system and when funds are available, get yourself a low mileage 1 owner Focus.

No Ferarri talk at all.

Remember I've been there too.

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 12:14PM

fitz wrote: »

If it's left open, every thread like this will go off topic.
You're right, it's important to learn why these things are better.
But surely that's better suited to a thread in it's own right: "The Anatomy of a PreAmp", or something like that, which explains a bit about the electronics involved, and why the more expensive one's sound better, that kind of thing.
Discussion like that is far more informative than snippets you pick up when a "suggestion" thread goes off topic, and it doesn't hi-jack the OPs thread, leaving them to bugger off to gearslutz to find an answer...

Fair point again really. However if there were a shower of ON TOPIC replies and no further answers to OFF TOPIC ones this wouldn't be an issue.

However poster chose to reply and chuck in their tuppence worth as they feel and that's kinda how a forum works?

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 12:21PM

Doctor J wrote: »

Maybe there are people who aren't making money though, maybe there are home enthusiasts who do it for the enjoyment and just want to step up a level. Should they not be able to ask about the better gear within a particular price range? It's great that the high end gear is discussed but it shouldn't be at the expense of people who aren't looking at running commercial studios, who have a budget and who are looking for first hand accounts of using gear at a particular level.

If you're not making money on your car maybe you should ride a bike, no?

Doctor J, anything that ANYBODY says here doesn't stop ANYONE else saying what they think. So if people have educated opinions on Lower end stuff they should express them.

Your criticisms may be better aimed at people who DON'T post, rather than ones who do, perhaps?

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:25PM

My god paul your on a roll with yourself. Yea to be fair people seem to feel intimidated when lets face it lads...This is a forum. The worst thats going to happen is some Neve owning head is going to say that "Its sh*te" and then the discussion starts about why or why it isnt sh*te! why? Because its a FORUM! Coming for the greek words FO and RUM meaning " sh*te Explain "

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:28PM

PaulBrewer wrote: »

It's an open Forum with quite a lot of readers I believe - anyone can pipe up with Lower end gear advice, but often don't.

And that is precisely my point, to a novice or casual reader, when a guy asks about spending €200 and pretty much gets ignored it discourages anyone else to post about similar things. The forum is turning into a little elitist corner where people at an enthusiast or hobbyist level are getting squished out because their gear might as well be a hi-fi, or there's no point in them doing anything until they've got 10 grand to spend. That's just hugely discouraging.

The forum should cater to all levels but often doesn't, the monitor thread being a glaring example.

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:31PM

TBH Doc anything of major high end gets very little discussion either. If there are so many low enders why arent they discussing things! We outnumber the big heads!

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:32PM

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Your criticisms may be better aimed at people who DON'T post, rather than ones who do, perhaps?

Not at all, nothing said is just as useless as something wildly irrelevant to the point.

As I've said more than once, it's great that there is knowledge of high end gear here, but if someone asks a question then answers should be somewhat relevant to it, no?

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:38PM

sei046 wrote: »

TBH Doc anything of major high end gets very little discussion either. If there are so many low enders why arent they discussing things!

That is my point. To newcomers and enthusiasts, the forum can be an intimidating place. Why would the monitor guy ask a question again when he gets told pretty much to multply his budget by at least three times or not bother? If a guy has a budget then you try to help within the budget, not just say don't bother until you get a lucky scratchcard.

Really expensive gear is better than really cheap gear.

OK, I think we can all agree on that, now can we move on?

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:38PM

I know what your saying. I just dont see the massive crime tbh. Like its literally only a scroll down. Im not saying its right, but its not really THAT wrong!

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:40PM

Doc I still think your missing the point. That was never the point I was trying to make. This might sound really harsh and I dont mean to offend but anyone who is intimidated by words on screen should turn off their computer, go outside and get a bit of life experience so their skin thickens a little. I know its harsh but Like I said I am one of the lowenders and I dont give a toss what people say! What are they going to do?

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:41PM

sei046 wrote: »

I know what your saying. I just dont see the massive crime tbh. Like its literally only a scroll down. Im not saying its right, but its not really THAT wrong!

Nobody is saying it's THAT wrong. As Fitz's thread title says: "Suggestion"

All that's being suggested is that posters bear in mind what the OP is asking, rather than just go "This stuff is way better than the stuff you can afford"

It's not THAT unreasonable

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:43PM

sei046 wrote: »

Doc I still think your missing the point. That was never the point I was trying to make. This might sound really harsh and I dont mean to offend but anyone who is intimidated by words on screen should turn off their computer, go outside and get a bit of life experience so their skin thickens a little. I know its harsh but Like I said I am one of the lowenders and I dont give a toss what people say! What are they going to do?

You're blowing it out of proportion.

Look, all that was suggested is people bear in mind what someone is asking. If someone asks a question and doesn't really get answered, why would they post again?

It's not a big deal.

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:45PM

Doctor J wrote: »

It's not a big deal.

Deal!

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:48PM

Agreed!

There are a lot of very knowledgable guys here, which is great, and it's fantastic to see discussions on some of the high end gear, but just remember the little guy from time to time

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 12:48PM

Doctor J wrote: »

As I've said more than once, it's great that there is knowledge of high end gear here, but if someone asks a question then answers should be somewhat relevant to it, no?

I agree totally!

However using the monitor thread as a reference template for the argument.

In my Professional Opinion after 25+ years of working with all sorts of Bad Shizzit as well as Good Shizit what I said in reference to monitors is what I absolutely believe to be true.
I think that Poster would be wasting his money. I'm sorry to thread on toes saying so but it is a big bad world and that sometimes happens. Anything that saves a guy wasting money is GOOD advice in my book.

I always think save your money and buy good stuff is the way to go - every time. I was the home guy who was constantly frustrated about my recordings as was sold the lie by the Industry that great recordings are cheap to make. The very same industry I'm apart of and trying to change from within.

Perhaps the core problem is that people don't want to hear the answer?

It's a bit like your mates telling you, as you drink 7 nights a week, you're drinking to much! Your view seems to be 'But it's my birthday this weekend!'

I'll give you and anyone else my honest answer every time.

Maybe people aren't posting about cheapo stuff because really, it's not that good?

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 12:56PM

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Maybe people aren't posting about cheapo stuff because really, it's not that good?

Maybe because they don't want to recommend something when they've found a step up from their previous setup when there are some clearly experienced people telling everyone it's a pile of ****e?

It's all relative.

Maybe comepared to a lot of pro setups a €200 set of monitors isn't worth the trouble, but then again, how good is yer man's hi-fi? Nobody ever asked. Would a set of M1 MkII's be a step up for him? Quite probably, they were a huge revelation for me, but you'd never guess it with all the talk of Genelecs, Dynaudio, etc.

Everyone has to start somewhere and maybe it's a good thing people take incremental steps up the ladder and learn for themselves. Not everyone can afford great gear, not everyone wants to buy great gear and answers should keep a bit of perspective.

Anyway, you get my point

sei046 · 09-06-2008 12:58PM

Well gear being good is definitely relative. And I dont think the reason they dont post about it is because it is not good(what?!). And can I just say again I AM A LOWENDER!??!

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 01:10PM

I think there's quite a bit of that. Audio production is a huge topic, if you're on the outside looking in there is so much to learn. It can be very intimidating for people to come in and ask a question, or to say "These are good" if there are experienced people saying that things twice as expensive are ****e. Maybe to the person who's just moved on from from their stereo system a low end set of monitors are amazing, but how can they argue against a set which costs over a grand?

For example, on the instruments forum, if someone asks about a first guitar, have you ever seen it suggested to keep their money until they can buy a PRS?

All I'm saying is to keep a bit of perspective, there are all levels here and if someone is starting off just to bear it in mind with responses. There is "good gear for €200" and there is "good gear", you know what I mean?

fitz · 09-06-2008 01:13PM

The weak link in my recording setup is my interface, and it's convertors. I get pretty good results for now, so I'm not gonna upgrade until I can replace it with something like an Apogee Ensemble. But I've made that choice.

It's equally valid for someone to decide that he just wants to spend €200 on monitors cause he needs a set of monitors. It's not helpful, or encouraging, to that guy to say "don't bother until you can spend €1000. Do you think someone starting off, looking at €200 monitors is likely to have the ears to benefit from €1000 monitors anyway?

All I'm suggesting is that the negativity be left out of it.
I think we can all accept that people are going to start out on cheap gear.
Nobodies going to jump straight in buying an SSL console and Dynaudio monitors.
There's a middle ground here that is not a waste of money for people who are developing their knowledge, skillz and most importantly their ears. If someone is asking for advice because that's the stage their at, then what's the point in advising them to go for something which is wasted on them.

It's like giving a Custom Shop Les Paul to someone playing guitar for 2 months...

fitz · 09-06-2008 01:14PM

Doctor J wrote: »

For example, on the instruments forum, if someone asks about a first guitar, have you ever seen it suggested to keep their money until they can buy a PRS?

Ok, we're now entering the Analogy Twilight Zone.
I'm getting a little creeped out...

cornbb · 09-06-2008 01:17PM

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I agree totally!

However using the monitor thread as a reference template for the argument.

In my Professional Opinion after 25+ years of working with all sorts of Bad Shizzit as well as Good Shizit what I said in reference to monitors is what I absolutely believe to be true.
I think that Poster would be wasting his money. I'm sorry to thread on toes saying so but it is a big bad world and that sometimes happens. Anything that saves a guy wasting money is GOOD advice in my book.

I always think save your money and buy good stuff is the way to go - every time. I was the home guy who was constantly frustrated about my recordings as was sold the lie by the Industry that great recordings are cheap to make. The very same industry I'm apart of and trying to change from within.

Perhaps the core problem is that people don't want to hear the answer?

It's a bit like your mates telling you, as you drink 7 nights a week, you're drinking to much! Your view seems to be 'But it's my birthday this weekend!'

I'll give you and anyone else my honest answer every time.

Maybe people aren't posting about cheapo stuff because really, it's not that good?

I think many of us have hugely different priorities when it comes to interpreting "Music Production". Paul, I have respect for your professional expertise. I also recognise the value of high-end gear when it comes to producing a professional, polished mix, and I know that using great gear can advance someone's engineering/mixing skills.

But for a lot of users on the forum, "Music Production" is about cranking out tunes - mixing and post production is only an element of that. If composition (as opposed to pro or prosumer mixing) is someone's passion, and they are making/mixing music in their bedroom for the love of it, then frankly the difference between a €200 pair of monitors and a €2,000 pair of monitors is far more negligible than some people would imagine. Especially if the price difference could be spent more effectively elsewhere (e.g. on instruments).

An expensive pair of monitors can improve a mix and they can improve someone's ability to mix well, but they do not help the creative process one iota. I believe that time/money spent on working on creative and innovative composition techniques and tools can be far more valuable than buying high-end gear, for a lot of budding musicians/producers.

As for threads being derailed with this discussion, I guess it might get tiring if its happening every week or something. Generally I see nothing wrong with it, the OP always has the option of asking people to keep things on-topic. In general, if someone asks "what is the best bit of kit I could get for €x?" then that particular question should be answered, rather than the familiar mantra of "save your cash for x".

teamdresch · 09-06-2008 01:18PM

We seem to be forgetting that yer man's question WAS answered satisfactorily, and he was given several alternatives in, or close to, his price range.
The discussion then moved on, as discussions are wont to do.

None of the big audio forums are moderated in anything like the way that's being suggested here. And they get by just fine.
Just let the forum members do their thing (within reason).
You'll find that the fewer barriers there are to discussion, the more discourse you get.

Doctor J · 09-06-2008 01:19PM

fitz wrote: »

Ok, we're now entering the Analogy Twilight Zone.
I'm getting a little creeped out...

Get out of my skull!!! :pac:

Neurojazz · 09-06-2008 01:21PM

cornbb wrote: »

An expensive pair of monitors can improve a mix and they can improve someone's ability to mix well, but they do not help the creative process one iota.

hehe, beg to differ there - nice speakers can sometimes aid creativity - i spent a few years at the hands on most sub 200 quid mark speakers and a decent set really helped fire me off into new material... That's just my take of course, i like a little warmth to help things keep me interested while i mix (knowing to keep an eye on the meters for a shortcoming on the lower range!)

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 01:31PM

Doctor J wrote: »

Anyway, you get my point

Ja! Keep on postin' Brother!

sei046 · 09-06-2008 01:34PM

I agree with dresch

jtsuited · 09-06-2008 03:41PM

funny thread. 100% agree with OP.
I would hate to be someone who wants to knock out a few breakbeat tunes in my bedroom and come to this forum where I'm going to be told (ad nauseum) that the expensive posh stuff is the best blah blah feckin blah.

And asking what's the cheapest soundcard i can get for under 100 euro is a hell of a lot more relevant than the new SSL product coming out to the term Music Production (for the vast majority of readers and posters on Boards).

PaulBrewer · 09-06-2008 03:45PM

jtsuited wrote: »

that the expensive posh stuff is the best

But it is!

Suggestion for gear recommendation threads.

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