Is a peaceful 32 united ireland possible

djpbarry

TOMASJ wrote: »

Think you will find worse songs than God save the queen, are sung at soccer games in this country every weekend.

(We are the billy boys) a song about cutting the throats of Catholics the anthem of some Irish League Soccer fans.

Not really the same thing, is it?

Acacia wrote: »

Should we have to sing the American national anthem if we were to play American football or baseball?

Of course not; that's precisely my point.

djpbarry

luckyfrank wrote: »

I love my country and i would love it to be united peacefully there doesnt have to be a logical reason for it

There isn't, which is why these arguments are pointless.

Acacia

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course not; that's precisely my point.

Then you would agree that there's no problem with singing the national anthem before playing the country's national sport?:)

johndaman66

Without reading through the thread in any great detail and to provide my point of view on the initial question. I think firstly that there are too many complex issues which would prevent a 32 county Republic being realised in the lifetime of anybody alive today and can only see the North being governed from Stormont in our futures. I think however, the main thing we have to be grateful for is that there now appears to be a lasting peace in Northern Ireland.

Not that I know a whole lot myself about the situation I think it is too naive and simplistic a view to take that a 32 county Republic would create a perfect romantic Ireland. Micheal Collins (and more besides) probably realised this some 90 odd years ago. It would probably create more and more severe problems than it would solve I'd imagine. And for that matter I think as far a I can see the Northern executive works pretty well all thing considered.

Aside from this I think its funny the way so many Irish people would proclaim to be great Irish patriots and all the same use cockney English expressions constant, shop in English chain stores (there are quite a lot of them here now), watch the BBC or English television programs and soccer, buy English magazines and music etc etc etc. the list goes on really. The funniest one for me was in a pub once a lad wearing a Man Utd. gersey say "Tocfaidh ar la" to me. Just a bit silly really I thought. Don't get me wrong now, I'm not a queen lover or anything like that but one has to realise that with regards the North wrongs were done on both sides, no doubt. I do realise also that there was some severe wrongs committed by the English security forces in the North in the past and am not trying to take away from this fact. However, at the end of the day the very very vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland are good people whether protestant or catholic!

Kama

Which is why these arguments are pointless

Not quite; pointless if you think an argument is about 'explaining' to the extremists of the other side why you are right, significantly less pointless as a means to see the views and justifications people have for their positions.

I mean, I'm not against a United Ireland (preferably in the spirit of the United Irishmen ;D), but when it goes 'kick out the prods' and ethno-nationalist territorial claims, and disagreement is 'unpatriotic' and all that malarkey, I part ways and quite frankly feel ashamed of my country. There are pretty ugly consequences if you actually want to go down that trajectory...That's not *my* Ireland anyway.

Seriously, if Ireland united is what you *really* want, complaining about Unionism isn't going to get it for you, nor is blaming the British; its always easier to blame others than look at what ones own side is doing.

Belfast (sorry, Good Friday! ) Agreement would be an example; giving up the territorial claim, which only 3% were against (NB territorial claimers, you've been outvoted, are ye democrats or not?) did more for Irish unity and cross-border merging than all the claiming of vestal-virgin nationalism and random terrorism ever did.

We can complain about Bowler hats, and they can scream Papist; how conveniently counter-productive. :P And the cycle of sectarian bigotry continues! :eek: Bizarrely atavistic in the days where more peeps speak Mandarin than Irish, and culture globalises. We should probably just bring back faction fights as televised sports, it'd get all this aggression out and we could sell the rights to Sky! >.<

IRLConor

luckyfrank wrote: »

Why does everything have to be logical ?? Am i a vulcan

Everything doesn't have to be logical, but it helps when dealing with contentious issues to attempt to take emotion out of the equation since it clouds your judgement. When trying to figure out the best course of action for the northern Ireland situation you have to put the practical, tangible costs and benefits way ahead of the emotional costs and benefits.

Is a united Ireland worth killing for or dying for? Not in my book. Is it worth spending billions of euro on? There'd have to be something tangible on the other side of the equation to balance that out; perhaps something like the quality of life of people in NI rising drastically. I don't see a united Ireland meaning anything better than more of the same for NI, so I don't see any tangible benefit to spending lives or money on it.

luckyfrank wrote: »

Tell me whats logical about love ?

Nothing, although I would say that loving a person makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than loving an abstract, artificial construct like a country.

luckat

Why patriotism is a virtue... loving the place where you're born and your people have lived is no great sin.

If northerners and southerners pulled together to make this country the best it could be - what a country we could have! We both have plenty to learn from each other.

ardmacha

I think it is too naive and simplistic a view to take that a 32 county Republic would create a perfect romantic Ireland.

A 32 county Republic would be a human place and therefore flawed. It would not be a romantic Ireland but a normal Ireland.

IRLConor

luckat wrote: »

Why patriotism is a virtue... loving the place where you're born and your people have lived is no great sin.

I think "no great sin" does not equal "a virtue". Charity is a virtue because it makes real, tangible, positive differences to the lives of those less fortunate. Patriotism has exactly what benefits to the lives of others?

Patriotism would be harmless if people didn't take it so seriously. The problem is that people use it as an excuse to (at best) spend money that could be better spent elsewhere and (at worst) kill people.

luckat wrote: »

If northerners and southerners pulled together to make this country the best it could be - what a country we could have! We both have plenty to learn from each other.

If people in NI and GB pulled together to make the UK the best it could be - what a country they could have! They both have plenty to learn from each other.

See any difference?

johndaman66

ardmacha wrote: »

A 32 county Republic would be a human place and therefore flawed. It would not be a romantic Ireland but a normal Ireland.

It would be unrealistic to expect such to happen all the same though ardmhacha....

Erin Go Brath

johndaman66 wrote: »

Without reading through the thread in any great detail and to provide my point of view on the initial question. I think firstly that there are too many complex issues which would prevent a 32 county Republic being realised in the lifetime of anybody alive today and can only see the North being governed from Stormont in our futures. I think however, the main thing we have to be grateful for is that there now appears to be a lasting peace in Northern Ireland.

Not that I know a whole lot myself about the situation I think it is too naive and simplistic a view to take that a 32 county Republic would create a perfect romantic Ireland. Micheal Collins (and more besides) probably realised this some 90 odd years ago. It would probably create more and more severe problems than it would solve I'd imagine. And for that matter I think as far a I can see the Northern executive works pretty well all thing considered.

Aside from this I think its funny the way so many Irish people would proclaim to be great Irish patriots and all the same use cockney English expressions constant, shop in English chain stores (there are quite a lot of them here now), watch the BBC or English television programs and soccer, buy English magazines and music etc etc etc. the list goes on really. The funniest one for me was in a pub once a lad wearing a Man Utd. gersey say "Tocfaidh ar la" to me. Just a bit silly really I thought. Don't get me wrong now, I'm not a queen lover or anything like that but one has to realise that with regards the North wrongs were done on both sides, no doubt. I do realise also that there was some severe wrongs committed by the English security forces in the North in the past and am not trying to take away from this fact. However, at the end of the day the very very vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland are good people whether protestant or catholic!

Ireland will be unified when a nationalist majority emerges in the 6 Counties. There are not too many complex issues surrounding Irelands unification. When most people vote for it in a referendum it happens. There will be no doomsday scenario, the sky won't fall in when Ireland becomes united. :rolleyes: Unionists will just have to get used to the new political status, and they'll certainly be treated better than nationalists were under British rule.

The Stormont executive doesn't work very well in case you haven't noticed. Its just one set of people growling across the floor at the other set for the most part. The DUP have blocked an Irish language act, and also are stalling on Policing and Justice powers. Unionists have a majority at the moment and they are using this numerical superiority to block any bill (whatever it is) that a nationalist tries to put through, just to show them whos boss rather than for any rational reason. Also you'd really have to question the viability of a state with requires enforced mandatory coalition in order to function. The Stormont government is living on borrowed time

djpbarry

Acacia wrote: »

Then you would agree that there's no problem with singing the national anthem before playing the country's national sport?

But suppose a GAA match is taking place in <insert random place name here>; should it really be necessary to play the Irish anthem just because the sport originates in Ireland?

Anyway, this is going OT.

Kama wrote: »

I mean, I'm not against a United Ireland (preferably in the spirit of the United Irishmen ;D), but when it goes 'kick out the prods' and ethno-nationalist territorial claims, and disagreement is 'unpatriotic' and all that malarkey, I part ways and quite frankly feel ashamed of my country.

Which is precisely what this and every other thread on this subject has boiled down to. This island still has a lot of growing up to do.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Ireland will be unified when a nationalist majority emerges in the 6 Counties.

I'm sure you mean 'if' rather than 'when'. Arrogantly assuring unionists that the appropriation of their country is inevitable does nothing for diplomatic relations.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The Stormont executive doesn't work very well in case you haven't noticed. Its just one set of people growling across the floor at the other set for the most part.

As opposed to the Dáil?

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

But suppose a GAA match is taking place in <insert random place name here>; should it really be necessary to play the Irish anthem just because the sport originates in Ireland?

Its not used because the sport originates in Ireland. AnaB is also the GAA's anthem and traditionally used. Gaelic games helped greatly to heal some of the wounds of the civil war - playing AnaB before games was regarded as a unifying symbol and a symbol of continuity. The other day, I came across a discussion on gaelic games on an English soccer MB (it came about because there was an article in a paper about Niall Quinn's Gaelic club has won the Kildare Club championship and he was on the bench for the game). A couple of (presumable English) posters had been to gaa games and one had even been to the Kerry v Tyrone game recently. All the posters agreed that both gaelic & hurling are fantastic sports, they loved the atmosphere, were amazed at the non-segregation and great fun between the fans, not to mention the fact that the players were amateur. All pretty well said it was a pity soccer wasn't like that. Not one mentioned it being a bit odd that AnaB was played.

Bearing all of that in mind, why should the GAA drop AnaB and give into intolerant bigots like the NI Sports Minister Gregory Campbell, who incidentally I believe as Sports Minister, has never been to a GAA game but does support Rangers FC (you know the club whose supporters wrecked Manchester recently) and complained about Celtic's Polish goalkeeper blessing himself before a football game.

Which is precisely what this and every other thread on this subject has boiled down to. This island still has a lot of growing up to do.

And wanting a song not played before a game isn't a tad immature? Tell me, bearing in mind that it must have been upsetting for the family of Michael Hogan who was shot dead playing football in Croke Park (I heard his nephew in interview, saying that it was time to move on), do you think having GSTQ in Croke Park was insensitive. Why didn't we ask them to play 'Land of Hope and Glory' instead?

I'm sure you mean 'if' rather than 'when'. Arrogantly assuring unionists that the appropriation of their country is inevitable does nothing for diplomatic relations.

So NI is owned by unionists - do nationalists have no say? You will be pleased to know that according to Tommy Gorman this morning on radio, in between the budget, trip to Brussels and heading off to China on a trade mission Brian Cowen is playing 'Agony Aunt' to the DUP & SF today in the Dáil. Whatever you may say about the Dáil/cabinet, at least they actually meet. The Stormont Executive haven't even met for weeks.

Unionists don't understand diplomacy, so its wasted on them!

McArmalite

djpbarry wrote: »

I wonder how popular soccer would be in this country if it was obligatory for ""God Save the Queen to be played prior to every game.

"God Save the Queen" is played before every ' Northern Ireland ' game as far as I can remember.

McArmalite

djpbarry wrote: »

But suppose a GAA match is taking place in should it really be necessary to play the Irish anthem just because the sport originates in Ireland?

:rolleyes: So with Baseball, Aussie Rules football etc

djpbarry wrote: »

Anyway, this is going OT.
Which is precisely what this and every other thread on this subject has boiled down to. This island still has a lot of growing up to do.

Yes, as has been pointed out, because the same people keep derailing any discussion critical of britian with " THE IRA idid this", " The IRA did that ", etc It's what called the Strawman tatic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm sure you mean 'if' rather than 'when'. Arrogantly assuring unionists that the appropriation of their country is inevitable does nothing for diplomatic relations.
As opposed to the Dáil?

Since partition, the nationalist population has been growning steadily. At the Stormont elections it was at a ratio of 54% to 46%. By assuring unionists that a nationalist majority is inevitable, I would have thought it pretty obvious that it's time for unionism to drop it's NO, NO, NO stance on just about every inevitable change small or big. Example* opposing ANY reform of the RUC down to replacing the cap badge :rolleyes:


* And don't let's get off on a discusssion of RUC reform

Erin Go Brath

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm sure you mean 'if' rather than 'when'. Arrogantly assuring unionists that the appropriation of their country is inevitable does nothing for diplomatic relations.

Demographic changes strongly suggests its a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'. Unionists know rightly that the statelet is British only pending a majority voting it to become part of the Irish state. I know unionists are a sensitive bunch, but no point in tiptoeing around something that is inevitable within a few decades i feel!

djpbarry wrote: »

As opposed to the Dáil?

The Dáil doesn't require enforced mandatory coalition to operate. It is a normal parliament!

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yet more "Whataboutery".

"Whataboutery". And this coming one of the main people who sidetrack every discussion critical of britian and the six counties with " the IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other " etc, etc as others have pointed out in these threads

As mentioned above, it's what called the Strawman tatic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

getz

will the schools in ireland ever teach a balanced history-of ireland ? for instance-the first time ireland became one country was when the british united it as one kingdom-when i was at school all my teachers could talk about was.that we the irish was occupied and under control of the english--when in fact the british parliament was run by irish elected members of parliament-more mps than any other country. and decisions on ireland passed by them- most irish people do not know that.we was not told that as, questions may be asked. and it would ruin the anti/brit history--i am suprised mothers dident tell the children :if they was not a good boy/girl a nasty englishman will take them away

McArmalite

johndaman66 wrote: »

Without reading through the thread in any great detail and to provide my point of view on the initial question. I think firstly that there are too many complex issues which would prevent a 32 county Republic being realised in the lifetime of anybody alive today and can only see the North being governed from Stormont in our futures. I think however, the main thing we have to be grateful for is that there now appears to be a lasting peace in Northern Ireland.

Not that I know a whole lot myself about the situation I think it is too naive and simplistic a view to take that a 32 county Republic would create a perfect romantic Ireland. Micheal Collins (and more besides) probably realised this some 90 odd years ago. It would probably create more and more severe problems than it would solve I'd imagine. And for that matter I think as far a I can see the Northern executive works pretty well all thing considered.

Aside from this I think its funny the way so many Irish people would proclaim to be great Irish patriots and all the same use cockney English expressions constant, shop in English chain stores (there are quite a lot of them here now), watch the BBC or English television programs and soccer, buy English magazines and music etc etc etc. the list goes on really. The funniest one for me was in a pub once a lad wearing a Man Utd. gersey say "Tocfaidh ar la" to me. Just a bit silly really I thought. Don't get me wrong now, I'm not a queen lover or anything like that but one has to realise that with regards the North wrongs were done on both sides, no doubt. I do realise also that there was some severe wrongs committed by the English security forces in the North in the past and am not trying to take away from this fact. However, at the end of the day the very very vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland are good people whether protestant or catholic!

" I think it is too naive and simplistic a view to take that a 32 county Republic would create a perfect romantic Ireland. " No ever said it would create a perfect romantic Ireland. Just a reasonable and fair one is all that the vast majority of people want.

" Micheal Collins (and more besides) probably realised this some 90 odd years ago. " On the treaty, Collins said some statement that it wasn't total freedom for Ireland but enough to achieve total freedom. Doubt if he envisaged it would last 90 years ( Collins was actually elected as the MP for Armagh in 1918).

As for the English shops, TV, soccer etc. We also wear American clothes, watch even more American TV programmes and movies etc, watch American sports the NBA, big Boxing fights, the UFC. 1,000's employed by American IT companies. Also their's Aussie soaps and nature documentary's.

It's called the Global Village.

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

And wanting a song not played before a game isn't a tad immature?

Where exactly did I say that?

The discussion of the GAA originated from a post by McArmalite questioning whether there was any rule forbidding unionists to join. I have merely pointed out that the GAA rule book requires members to essentially embrace nationalism. Note that this is not an opinion, this is what is written in their rule book. That is all.

thehighground wrote: »

...do you think having GSTQ in Croke Park was insensitive.

If you think some poxy song about an invisible guy "saving" an old sponger is insensitive, then yeah, maybe some people thought it was insensitive. Personally, I couldn't give a toss what songs people play at any particular venue.

thehighground wrote: »

Why didn't we ask them to play 'Land of Hope and Glory' instead?

Em, ok. Not sure what it would accomplish, but I'll be sure to mention it at the next AGM of the Association of Unpatriotic Irish People who Don't Support Every Aspect of Nationalism and are therefore Labelled as Unionist Bigots.

thehighground wrote: »

So NI is owned by unionists - do nationalists have no say?

:rolleyes: Yeah, that's what I said.

Unionists in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.
Nationalists in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.
Everyone else in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.

Happy now?

thehighground wrote: »

Unionists don't understand diplomacy, so its wasted on them!

Yeah, let's tar them all with the same brush, that's the spirit.

McArmalite wrote: »

"God Save the Queen" is played before every ' Northern Ireland ' game as far as I can remember.

You'll note that I said "this country". Besides, God Save the Queen is not played before EVERY soccer game in Britain.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Demographic changes strongly suggests its a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'.
...
I know unionists are a sensitive bunch, but no point in tiptoeing around something that is inevitable within a few decades i feel!

The important bit there is highlighted in bold.

getz

the words of god save the queen is about a old dear who is queen of britain--non of the words should offend anyone ,the words in the republic anthem has anti/british words that needs to be taken out [your own goverment has noted this and intends to change them] there is no room in this day and age for racist songs on the international stage----amen

McArmalite

getz wrote: »

the words of god save the queen is about a old dear who is queen of britain--non of the words should offend anyone ,the words in the republic anthem has anti/british words that needs to be taken out [your own goverment has noted this and intends to change them] there is no room in this day and age for racist songs on the international stage----amen

Personally I love the words about " old dear who is queen of britain " - the Sex Pistols version that is

McArmalite

djpbarry wrote: »

Where exactly did I say that?

The discussion of the GAA originated from a post by McArmalite questioning whether there was any rule forbidding unionists to join. I have merely pointed out that the GAA rule book requires members to essentially embrace nationalism. Note that this is not an opinion, this is what is written in their rule book. That is all.
If you think some poxy song about an invisible guy "saving" an old sponger is insensitive, then yeah, maybe some people thought it was insensitive. Personally, I couldn't give a toss what songs people play at any particular venue.
Em, ok. Not sure what it would accomplish, but I'll be sure to mention it at the next AGM of the Association of Unpatriotic Irish People who Don't Support Every Aspect of Nationalism and are therefore Labelled as Unionist Bigots.
:rolleyes: Yeah, that's what I said.

Unionists in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.
Nationalists in Northern Ireland; Ireland is their country.
Everyone else in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.

Happy now?
Yeah, let's tar them all with the same brush, that's the spirit.
You'll note that I said "this country". Besides, God Save the Queen is not played before EVERY soccer game in Britain.
The important bit there is highlighted in bold.

Unionists in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.
Nationalists in Northern Ireland; Ireland is their country.

Otherwise they wouldn't be nationalists would they ??

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

Nationalists in Northern Ireland; Northern Ireland is their country.

Incorrect. Ireland is their country.

djpbarry

McArmalite wrote: »

Nationalists in Northern Ireland; Ireland is their country.

dlofnep wrote: »

Incorrect. Ireland is their country.

:rolleyes:

You both know exactly what I meant; enough of the pedantry.

dlofnep

Can't say that I did.

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

Where exactly did I say that?

Post no. 253! This is the post that I misunderstood!

Originally Posted by Acacia View Post
Then you would agree that there's no problem with singing the national anthem before playing the country's national sport?
[QUOTE=djpbarry: But suppose a GAA match is taking place in <insert random place name here>; should it really be necessary to play the Irish anthem just because the sport originates in Ireland?

The discussion of the GAA originated from a post by McArmalite questioning whether there was any rule forbidding unionists to join. I have merely pointed out that the GAA rule book requires members to essentially embrace nationalism. Note that this is not an opinion, this is what is written in their rule book. That is all.

Who (besides yourself and those who have to, like GAA committee members) reads the GAA Rule Book?

If you think some poxy song about an invisible guy "saving" an old sponger is insensitive, then yeah, maybe some people thought it was insensitive. Personally, I couldn't give a toss what songs people play at any particular venue.

For someone who doesn't give a toss what songs are sung, you seem to spend a lot of time here commenting on them.

Em, ok. Not sure what it would accomplish, but I'll be sure to mention it at the next AGM of the Association of Unpatriotic Irish People who Don't Support Every Aspect of Nationalism and are therefore Labelled as Unionist Bigots.
:rolleyes: Yeah, that's what I said.

I wouldn't label you a Unionist bigot - but you seem to be fairly low tolerance level to anything that doesn't go along with your way of thinking.
[/QUOTE]

Happy now?
Yeah, let's tar [unionists] them all with the same brush, that's the spirit.

So tell me, who elected Campbell, Iris Robinson et al - the IRA?

nesf

luckyfrank wrote: »

Nesf this is an adult topic in an adult forum i mean
if you cant get angry from time to time and type what you feel whats the point......... all you end up with is wall o' text, no personality and boring as hell

If you don't want to obey the rules for this forum then don't post here.

Kama

I'll be sure to mention it at the next AGM of the Association of Unpatriotic Irish People who Don't Support Every Aspect of Nationalism and are therefore Labelled as Unionist Bigots.

As a card-carrying member of the AUIPWDSEANAATLAUB, I'm looking forward to it

Demographic changes strongly suggests its a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'. Unionists know rightly that the statelet is British only pending a majority voting it to become part of the Irish state. I know unionists are a sensitive bunch, but no point in tiptoeing around something that is inevitable within a few decades i feel

Good to see the (Mc)Armalite and the Ballot Box is still alive. For one thing, not all Catholics vote Sinn Fein, but bracketing that, accepting a slim majority from demographic destiny, do you think the Unionist minority should go gentle into the night, emigrate or be bred out? We would have a similar situation, flipped over: Unionist terrorist/freedom fighters resisting a illegitimate (in their eyes) state. This prospect and its implications horrify me, and seem to be little considered by those who think an end to partition is actually the end, rather than being the start of something different. The same point can be made on a financial level; anyone got any notion of what annexing the North would actually cost? I'd wager personally that significantly fewer people in the South would vote for unity if there was a clear financial cost to them...

Now, on djpbarry point on the GAA, rather than mocking him for actually reading the rule book, perhaps you could deal with his point?

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

Post no. 253! This is the post that I misunderstood!

FFS :rolleyes:.

I merely suggested that perhaps a little more unionist involvement in GAA activities might be encouraged by toning down the nationalist elements just a tad.

thehighground wrote: »

...you seem to be fairly low tolerance level to anything that doesn't go along with your way of thinking.

No; I have a fairly low tolerance for people who continuously misrepresent what I say while refusing to address relevant points that I raise.

thehighground wrote: »

So tell me, who elected Campbell, Iris Robinson et al - the IRA?

There you go again; everyone who supports a union between NI and GB is of the same mindset as Iris Robinson. Does that mean that everyone in GB who votes Labour is of the same mindset as Ruth Kelly?