Protests over Gaza deaths at 5PM Today (Monday) outside Israeli Embassy..

PeakOutput

wes wrote: »

Again, you forget the blockade of Gaza.

if im not mistaken which i might be has this not being going on for years and the ceasefire is an effort to bring the parties to the table to talk about things?

Thats not my argument, I was pointing out how ridiculous it was to say its ok to attack Palestinians due to who they voted for, as this logic can be turned the other way.

and you / i can say that its ok to attack palestinian terrorists without any worry of being a hypocrite as it would of been ok to attack the israeli terrorists if / when they were in power and began bombing your country

simple fact

hamas refused a ceasfire knowing what would that would bring.

hamas then attacked the country that is probably even more gung ho in retaliation and 'protecting its citizens' than any other in the world and are now crying fowl because they actually retaliated.

why dont the hamas leaders come on tv and declare their willingness to talk and come to a peacefull resolution promising and following threw on the promise that there will be no attacks thereby giving israel no choice but to react to international pressure for a permanent mutually agreeable outcome.

the reason they wont is they are terrorists in a governments clothing and would lose power over night if the palestinian people were not living in fear.

Neamhshuntasach

PeakOutput wrote: »

simple fact

hamas refused a ceasfire knowing what would that would bring.

hamas then attacked the country that is probably even more gung ho in retaliation and 'protecting its citizens' than any other in the world and are now crying fowl because they actually retaliated.

why dont the hamas leaders come on tv and declare their willingness to talk and come to a peacefull resolution promising and following threw on the promise that there will be no attacks thereby giving israel no choice but to react to international pressure for a permanent mutually agreeable outcome.

the reason they wont is they are terrorists in a governments clothing and would lose power over night if the palestinian people were not living in fear.

Hamas refused to extend the ceasefire because Israel intensified the blockade against Gaza and also killed civilians while on an incursion into tunnels that they said were occupied by Hamas soldiers. But were used by homeless people. Israel reduced the amount of food, medical supplies and water going in to Gaza. Electricity was only on for 2 hours a day and never at the same time, people couldn't plan around that. And the curfew was imposed 2 hours earlier than normal. That is what provoked them to not continue on with the curfew because Israel were failing to recognize one of their own ends of the treaty. Now that is simple fact. You can't just make a statement and not back it up. And all of what i just said is documented fact and has even been on BBC if you need to hear something like that.

Hamas have declared their willingness to talk. Israel say they are giving them over 80% of their land back. But that is only 80% of the 22% that they were offered under the Oslo agreement. Hamas have even said they will talk with Obama. They will sign any deal that will have Israel recognize the 1967 borders. The destruction of Israel has even been omitted from their charter. Israel has rejected countless truces and broken a few themselves. It is not always Hamas that is responsible.

Palestinians voted them in because Fatah were seen as corrupt. It had nothing to do with fear. And if it did, it was fear from the Israelis. A lot of Palestinians see Hamas as their protectors.

PeakOutput

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Hamas refused to extend the ceasefire because Israel intensified the blockade against Gaza and also killed civilians while on an incursion into tunnels that they said were occupied by Hamas soldiers. But were used by homeless people. Israel reduced the amount of food, medical supplies and water going in to Gaza. Electricity was only on for 2 hours a day and never at the same time, people couldn't plan around that. And the curfew was imposed 2 hours earlier than normal. That is what provoked them to not continue on with the curfew because Israel were failing to recognize one of their own ends of the treaty. Now that is simple fact. You can't just make a statement and not back it up. And all of what i just said is documented fact and has even been on BBC if you need to hear something like that.

Hamas have declared their willingness to talk. Israel say they are giving them over 80% of their land back. But that is only 80% of the 22% that they were offered under the Oslo agreement. Hamas have even said they will talk with Obama. They will sign any deal that will have Israel recognize the 1967 borders. The destruction of Israel has even been omitted from their charter. Israel has rejected countless truces and broken a few themselves. It is not always Hamas that is responsible.

Palestinians voted them in because Fatah were seen as corrupt. It had nothing to do with fear. And if it did, it was fear from the Israelis. A lot of Palestinians see Hamas as their protectors.

it was the fear from israel i was talking about

other than that i dont want to refute(not that i could) any of your points. israel is not a 'nice' state weighing up all the facts they just seem 'nicer' to me than palestine. everytime i hear of israel doing something that provokes palestine it is something that is aimed at(granted they dont always do a good or even average job) disrupting hamas attacks on israel. everytime i hear of palestine doing something that provokes israel its some indiscriminate attack on civilians.

The Mighty Ken

Nodin wrote: »

Because Israel is colonising the Territories. This is an Israeli site which details the kind of things that go on.

Ah okay. So the reason that those rockets were fired at Israel over the last few weeks was because of the general ongoing dispute and not as a direct retaliation to any specific Israeli action. That's all I wanted to know.

Nodin wrote: »

Sectarian nonsense. The question was asked in relation to the beliefs of Palestinians, not some scare mongering reading of the Quaran.

Get a literal translation. Read it. These are the core beliefs of many devout Muslims. Palestinians included although possibly not so much as more salafist countries. Are my views sectarian? You bet they are. Are they unrealistic? Nope. Sorry.

The Mighty Ken

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Guess there's no point in talking to you unless...

...unless I'm willing to get spoon-fed your bulls**t without questioning it.

Prove your assertions or GTFO.

Terry

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

...unless I'm willing to get spoon-fed your bulls**t without questioning it.

Prove your assertions or GTFO.

STFU or GTFO.

Ass

Turn of events:

Israel break the ceasefire on 4th November and impose a blockade on the whole region.
Hamas start lobbing rockets from largely populated areas, into largely unpopulated areas. Casualties are minimal.
Israel retaliate with air strikes. Casualties are in the hundreds.


Hamas are cunts. Israel are even bigger cunts.

I'd like to say I'd be at the protest, but I just don't give a shite. If I were to give a shite, I'd be backing the Palestinians.

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

STFU or GTFO.

Ok, mein fuhrer!

wes

PeakOutput wrote: »

if im not mistaken which i might be has this not being going on for years and the ceasefire is an effort to bring the parties to the table to talk about things?

Israel tightened the blockade during the ceasefire. Its very much a chicken and egg situation.

PeakOutput wrote: »

and you / i can say that its ok to attack palestinian terrorists without any worry of being a hypocrite as it would of been ok to attack the israeli terrorists if / when they were in power and began bombing your country

simple fact

hamas refused a ceasfire knowing what would that would bring.

Again, during the ceasefire, Israel tightened there blockade. The UN has warned about the blockade making things worse.

PeakOutput wrote: »

hamas then attacked the country that is probably even more gung ho in retaliation and 'protecting its citizens' than any other in the world and are now crying fowl because they actually retaliated.

why dont the hamas leaders come on tv and declare their willingness to talk and come to a peacefull resolution promising and following threw on the promise that there will be no attacks thereby giving israel no choice but to react to international pressure for a permanent mutually agreeable outcome.

the reason they wont is they are terrorists in a governments clothing and would lose power over night if the palestinian people were not living in fear.

Again, during the ceasefire, there was no improvement for the Gazans. The blockade began almost immediately after Hamas took over Gaza and this was after the US/Israel/Fatah planned to over throw Hamas and this is when the blockade started. As I said before, the whole situation is very much one of the chicken and egg. The current strikes are part of the same cycle of violence that been going on for years. No one started whats happening now, its sadly a continuation of whats been going on for years.

Ass

PeakOutput wrote: »

if im not mistaken which i might be has this not being going on for years and the ceasefire is an effort to bring the parties to the table to talk about things?



and you / i can say that its ok to attack palestinian terrorists without any worry of being a hypocrite as it would of been ok to attack the israeli terrorists if / when they were in power and began bombing your country

simple fact

hamas refused a ceasfire knowing what would that would bring.

hamas then attacked the country that is probably even more gung ho in retaliation and 'protecting its citizens' than any other in the world and are now crying fowl because they actually retaliated.

why dont the hamas leaders come on tv and declare their willingness to talk and come to a peacefull resolution promising and following threw on the promise that there will be no attacks thereby giving israel no choice but to react to international pressure for a permanent mutually agreeable outcome.

the reason they wont is they are terrorists in a governments clothing and would lose power over night if the palestinian people were not living in fear.

You're speaking as if it were Hamas who broke the ceasefire.

PeakOutput

Ass Face wrote: »

You're speaking as if it were Hamas who broke the ceasefire.

no im not im speaking as if hamas refused to reinitiate the ceasefire from what iv read neither party broke the ceasefire. there were what i can only describe as 'skirmishes' possibly/probably caused initially by the israelis but casualties appear to be minor kept to a minimum an a modicum of diplomacy could prevail even if it was just a ceasefire for show

i believe if hamas had agreed to continue the ceasefire the events of the last few days wouldnt have happened and there would be hope there of talks between the sides eventually

Neamhshuntasach

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

...unless I'm willing to get spoon-fed your bulls**t without questioning it.

Prove your assertions or GTFO.

And how would someone on an internet forum prove something like that? By providing a bunch of links to various websites, etc only to have you say that i can post my liberal left wing nonsense up my arse? All of what i mentioned is documented fact. And if you were to try find out and read about it, you will easily find your proof. If you don't want to do that, well then yes, there is no point in talking with you. And if you think i was trying to spoon feed you anything, you really need to reread it without being so defensive.

The Mighty Ken

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

All of what i mentioned is documented fact.

Weren't you the same person that was saying that the rocket attacks started by Hamas a few weeks ago were caused by a specific instance or instances of Israeli aggression that, conveniently, never made the news here? Anyway, never mind having to prove it. All you need to do is claim that everthing you say is 'documented fact' and that's all the evidence I need. :rolleyes:

Neamhshuntasach

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Weren't you the same person that was saying that the rocket attacks started by Hamas a few weeks ago were caused by a specific instance or instances of Israeli aggression that, conveniently, never made the news here? Anyway, never mind having to prove it. All you need to do is claim that everthing you say is 'documented fact' and that's all the evidence I need. :rolleyes:

Actually it did make the news in this part of the world after all. It's on the BBC website. It's the same time line of events that i listed earlier.

The documented facts i refer to are regarding the electricity and water and basic other humanitarian issues. Just because i used the term fact doesn't mean i expect you to take it as gospel. But if you really don't believe it, go research yourself.

Terry

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Actually it did make the news in this part of the world after all. It's on the BBC website. It's the same time line of events that i listed earlier.

The documented facts i refer to are regarding the electricity and water and basic other humanitarian issues. Just because i used the term fact doesn't mean i expect you to take it as gospel. But if you really don't believe it, go research yourself.

Link?

marcsignal

oh sweet jesus not this issue again :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-y8kAsr8Q

Zebra3

phenomenon wrote: »

That was a noble speech my friend and you're right - the conflict will end when one side stops the violence. But you seem to miss the critical point that it's the Palestinians who repeatedly break these ceasefires. Israel would be more than happy to co-exist with its neighbours in peace but unlike Jordan, Egypt and the others that learned their lesson during the 1967 6-day war, the Palestinians continue to target Israeli civilians.
If the Palestinians are wiped out one by one they have only themselves to blame, I'm sorry to say, for electing a terrorist militia to represent them.

And yes, the people who attend these protests are muppets of the highest order. What do they hope to achieve besides hold up traffic?

@Zebra23: Wrap a towel around your head and run off to Gaza to fight with your terrorist friends ya big hero. See how welcome you are. Let's hope an Israeli teenager (who you label as a legitimate target) catches you in the crosswires of his sniper scope

Of course Israel would be happy to co-exist in peace with its neighbours on stolen land.

You think labelling people "teorrorists" makes things black and white? :rolleyes: Wtf do you expect people to do when they have no food to eat, no medicine and no oil because the occupiers have placed a blockade on them that is in contrevention of international law? The Palestinians are not friends of mine, but they do have my sympathies and for that, I make absolutely no apologies.

Was it Brendan Behan who coined the phrase "How do you spot a terrorist?....."

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

How is Rupie spinning it?

Poor defenceless Israel being picked on again. :rolleyes: I'm sure you can picture it....

Nodin

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Get a literal translation. Read it. These are the core beliefs of many devout Muslims. Palestinians included although possibly not so much as more salafist countries. Are my views sectarian? You bet they are. Are they unrealistic? Nope. Sorry.

As I can get copies of the Torah, the 613 mitvoi and the various Christian translations of the OT, say "These are the core beliefs" and do similar, its really a pathetic and rather moth eaten argument to trot out.

3BeingIN6th wrote:

Link?.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Index.asp

Water specifically
http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Shared_Sources.asp

The Mighty Ken

Nodin wrote: »

As I can get copies of the Torah, the 613 mitvoi and the various Christian translations of the OT, say "These are the core beliefs" and do similar, its really a pathetic and rather moth eaten argument to trot out.

And yours is utterly nonsensical.

Neamhshuntasach

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Link?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802515.stm

On the right side of the page is a time line of events. What i posted earlier is pretty much what is listed there only mine had more info. I got that info from Palestinian friends in Ramallah and was also pretty much the same thing said to me by an Israeli friend in Ashkelon. To me, somewhere in there is the truth if they are all pretty much saying the same thing.

Terry

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

And yours is utterly nonsensical.

Jesus and Moses are seen as prophets by Muslims.

Both preached the first commandment.

Trotting out the old 'oh, the koran tells them to kill us and they all follow that to the letter' line won't wash here.

wes

From Independent.co.uk

The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

Click here for the whole article

The above quote provides some context to the Gaza situation. It seems Israel withdrawal, was not intended to promote peace, but to gain more land in the West Bank, which is happening right now.

wes

Domo230 wrote: »

They both seem just as bad. IMO they deserve each other.

The hard liners on both sides do deserve it, but there are a lot of Palestinians and Israelis who want this crap to stop, they don't deserve this mess.

Terry

wes wrote: »

The hard liners on both sides do deserve it, but there are a lot of Palestinians and Israelis who want this crap to stop, they don't deserve this mess.

Indeed.
One need only look closer to home to see the truth in that.

OK-Cancel-Apply

No justice, no peace. Under international law, the Palestinian refugees have a right to return to their homes. Israel is denying them that right because they now occupy that land. Israel, with the complete support of the U.S., is violating international law by remaining on the land they stole. All Israel has to do is end the illegal occupation and return to the 1967, internationally agreed borders. But they won't, because according to Zionism, Israel needs to extend from the Nile to the Euphrates (Egypt to Iraq). It's their God-given right, so they say. Ironically though, Israel was founded by atheists.

Most Zionists are actually Christians in America, who support Israel because they pray for the Second Coming. There are PLENTY of Jews who oppose Israel's actions.

ShooterSF

Here's to religion, the cause of and solution to all of lives problems.

Neamhshuntasach

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

No justice, no peace. Under international law, the Palestinian refugees have a right to return to their homes. Israel is denying them that right because they now occupy that land. Israel, with the complete support of the U.S., is violating international law by remaining on the land they stole. All Israel has to do is end the illegal occupation and return to the 1967, internationally agreed borders. But they won't, because according to Zionism, Israel needs to extend from the Nile to the Euphrates (Egypt to Iraq). It's their God-given right, so they say. Ironically though, Israel was founded by atheists.

Most Zionists are actually Christians in America, who support Israel because they pray for the Second Coming. There are PLENTY of Jews who oppose Israel's actions.

On the Palestinian refugee situation one of the other points why they won't let them return to their homes, well land since the homes were demolished. Its because if they all return to what is now called Israel, they will increase the number of Arabs in Israel and that will decrease the Jewishness of the state. There have been direct quotes by Israeli politicians stating that reason. It's unbelievable that representatives of the Israeli Government can be on record being so bigoted and Zionist and nobody says boo to them in the media. Shoe on the the foot and it's everywhere.

Terry

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

On the Palestinian refugee situation one of the other points why they won't let them return to their homes, well land since the homes were demolished. Its because if they all return to what is now called Israel, they will increase the number of Arabs in Israel and that will decrease the Jewishness of the state. There have been direct quotes by Israeli politicians stating that reason. It's unbelievable that representatives of the Israeli Government can be on record being so bigoted and Zionist and nobody says boo to them in the media. Shoe on the the foot and it's everywhere.

How dare you say anything bad about the Jews. That makes you anti-semetic and a racist and a holocaust denier. You and your like sicken me and my uber trendy left wing leanings.

The Jews were persecuted in Europe, but they would never do anything similar to other people. never. They are incapable of playing up on the holocaust and playing on the heartstrings of liberal Americans in order to get what they want.

For someone to suggest that the people with the world's oldest religion, one which states in it's first commandment that thou shalt not kill would actually commit genocide while the rest of the world looks on and America gives it's full suppoort, is completely abhorrent.

There is no way that any people (backed by a British invasion) would take an entire country and try to get rid of all the natives. That's just sillyness and belongs in the conspiracy theories forum and has no basis in fact.

The Mighty Ken

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Trotting out the old 'oh, the koran tells them to kill us and they all follow that to the letter' line won't wash here.

Never said they do all follow it to the letter but the literal effect is there whether you like it or not. As is the rise of salafi ideology. Sorry if that doesn't 'wash' here, I'm just mentioning it.

Terry

Proof?

Or is it just that you have been watching too much Rupie tv?