Protests over Gaza deaths at 5PM Today (Monday) outside Israeli Embassy..

toiletduck · 30-12-2008 11:45am

Was this a bigger protest than the one all the usual groups organised for the Russian-Georgian war? Oh wait...

Eoin · 30-12-2008 11:49am

Dudess wrote: »

That's the thing I keep asking Israel apologists over in Politics - to put themselves in Palestinian shoes: would they be ok with it? Strangely I haven't got an answer, apart from the odd "I wouldn't vote for a murderous government" or "I'd feel we were bringing it on ourselves". Obviously those responses are from people who aren't really putting themselves in Palestinian shoes.

What? Now you want the Israelis to take the Palestinians' shoes off them? Shame on you.

Terry · 30-12-2008 12:05pm

eoin wrote: »

What? Now you want the Israelis to take the Palestinians' shoes off them? Shame on you.

Ahh, sure the Iranians are throwing them away.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800453.stm

Nodin · 30-12-2008 12:20pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

However, all evidence points to an endemic barbarism no matter how much you apologise for the sheer terror that the extremists in their ranks are inflicting all across the globe.

So its no worse than any of the rest except that it is and OMG THEY'RE COMIN RIGHT AT US!!!!. Wunderbar.

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 12:23pm

Nodin wrote: »

So its no worse than any of the rest except that it is and OMG THEY'RE COMIN RIGHT AT US!!!!. Wunderbar.

Eh? Having difficulty understanding you. Let's leave it at that shall we.

Run_to_da_hills · 30-12-2008 12:28pm

toiletduck wrote: »

Was this a bigger protest than the one all the usual groups organized for the Russian-Georgian war? Oh wait...

There was 250ish. Press and the usual garda presence but it went with out incident. Crowd moved from Israeli to US Embassy where there was shoe throwing at an effigy of George Bush across from the US Embassy. The US is just as much responsible for this atrocity for supplying arms to Israel.

The west bank has now become the guinea pig for testing new "smart bomb" weapons for the US and Israel. The GPS guided GBU-39 is said to be one of the most accurate bombs in the world. The 113 kg. bomb has the same penetration capabilities as a normal 900 kg. bomb, although it has only 22.7 kg. of explosives. At just 1.75 meters long, its small size increases the number of bombs an aircraft can carry and the number of targets it can attack in a sortie. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456505080&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

No better place to try them in a the most densely populated environment on the face of the planet just like picking off Goldfish out of a fish bowel. Out of the 350 that were killed MOST were innocent, those that were claimed to be members of Hamas were ordinary civil servents going about their duties just like the Gardai or Council workers.

http://www.ipsc.ie/

Canis Lupus · 30-12-2008 12:32pm

None of this is worse than when Brand and Ross phoned Manuel and left a phone message.

Nodin · 30-12-2008 12:49pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Eh? Having difficulty understanding you. Let's leave it at that shall we.

At the start of your post you stated

It's all nonsense to me. I'm agnostic. I wouldn't claim that any organised mass fantasy is any better or worse than any other.

and you end up....

However, all evidence points to an endemic barbarism no matter how much you apologise for the sheer terror that the extremists in their ranks are inflicting all across the globe

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 1:01pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There was 250ish. Press and the usual garda presence but it went with out incident. Crowd moved from Israeli to US Embassy where there was shoe throwing at an effigy of George Bush across from the US Embassy. The US is just as much responsible for this atrocity for supplying arms to Israel.

And how many were at the Russia Georgia march? Or the Russia/Checnya march? Or the march against the Thai government? Or against the atrocities of 9/11? Or the atrocities in Pakistan? Or the... ah I won't go on. Let's just pick and choose who we want to support and stick to our guns.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The west bank has now become the guinea pig for testing new "smart bomb" weapons for the US and Israel.

No better place to try them in a the most densely populated environment on the face of the planet just like picking off Goldfish out of a fish bowel.

Brilliant! The US and Israel are using the Palestinians to 'test their new weapons'. And once they're done, I assume they get gassed in chambers, eh?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Out of the 350 that were killed MOST were innocent, those that were claimed to be members of Hamas were ordinary civil servents going about their duties just like the Gardai or Council workers.

Why, because an organisation with a blatant agenda says so? The UN, who are against Israeli action, suggest that the majority were not innocent. I'd be inclined to take their word for it.

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 1:01pm

Nodin wrote: »

At the start of your post you stated

and you end up....

And? You're making no sense whatsoever. Let's not reply to each other anymore.

Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:14pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

And? You're making no sense whatsoever. Let's not reply to each other anymore.

Your post contradicts itself. I'm just pointing that out.

Run_to_da_hills · 30-12-2008 1:18pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

And how many were at the Russia Georgia march? Or the Russia/Checnya march? Or the march against the Thai government? Or against the atrocities of 9/11? Or the atrocities in Pakistan? Or the... ah I won't go on. Let's just pick and choose who we want to support and stick to our guns..

9/1 was an inside Job deliberately set up and used by the Global authorities to roll out microchipped embedded passports in the first step towards totalitarian control.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Brilliant! The US and Israel are using the Palestinians to 'test their new weapons'. And once they're done, I assume they get gassed in chambers, eh?
.

Gas is too expensive these days. (Hitler committed suicide because he got the gas bill

)

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Why, because an organization with a blatant agenda says so? The UN, who are against Israeli action, suggest that the majority were not innocent. I'd be inclined to take their word for it.

If Fiana Fail committed atrocities that resulted in an attack from abroad would you justify the annihilation of the Dublin civic offices, Dublin Castle, the Gardai Headquarters, ETC killing anyone in its path? Exact same thing. Any of Hamas leaders that are pulling the strings know better not to habit these places.

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 1:19pm

Nodin wrote: »

Your post contradicts itself. I'm just pointing that out.

It doesn't. You've completely misread it and your posts are drivvel. Like I said, let's leave it at that.

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 1:21pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

9/1 was an inside Job deliberately set up and used by the Global authorities to roll out microchipped embedded passports on a global scale in the first step towards totalitarian control.

Okay. Watching too much Zeitgeist methinks.

[HTML]<img src="http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg" />[/HTML]

This is where I bail. Good luck to you.

Run_to_da_hills · 30-12-2008 1:31pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Okay. Watching too much Zeitgeist methinks.

[HTML]<img src="http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg" />[/HTML]

This is where I bail. Good luck to you.

You have been watching too much television. :rolleyes:

http://www.danielmountain.com/liveleak/2005/jan/buzzsaw_files/sheeple.jpg

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 1:35pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You believe watching too much television. :rolleyes:

http://www.danielmountain.com/liveleak/2005/jan/buzzsaw_files/sheeple.jpg

Sorry. You're on a higher level on consciousness than I am and you know that American bankers want to install RF chips in our brains. I wish I was as enlightened as you. Wibble wibble.

Ass · 30-12-2008 2:58pm

My name is Mud wrote: »

Funny thing is that if no religon existed, none of this would be happening.

Regardless of the Israeli's using excessive force, or Hamas hiding in Palenstinian civillian centres, all this bloodshed stems from religon.

Load of cock it is really.

Yeah. We should ban religion on a global scale. That will instantly solve all of the worlds problems.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 30-12-2008 2:59pm

About the whole left-wing/right-wing support thing - I think there are many ordinary people who don't know much about the situation, and just assume anyone who is killing Arabs is in the right, as Arabs are supposed to be freedom-hating fanatical extremists.

The truth is that Israel has always been the aggressor. Everything going on in the region can be traced back to Israeli aggression, from the formation of Hamas, to the formation of Hezbollah in Lebannon.

Without religion, sure, there's be less of a 'mask' to put over this, but in reality, the Israelis (those in top-level power at least) are just white Europeans doing what white Europeans do best - conquering far off lands and colonising them while kicking out/wiping out the natives.

The Israel lobby is the largest in the U.S. government, and that's why they have their never-ending support. The Palestinians probably would have succeeded in resisting the occupation by now, had the U.S. not been giving Israel money and free weapons, including nukes.

Like it or not, the Palestinians actually have a legal right to fire their rockets at Israel. Israel is the one violating the law, but it seems that as long as you have US support, you can do whatever you like. And it also seems that popular support will be with you too, as long as you have uniforms, fighter jets and a 'defense' minister. "Throwing bombs is bad, dropping bombs is good" it seems.

Ass · 30-12-2008 3:01pm

Just ban jews then.

munchester29 · 30-12-2008 3:16pm

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

The truth is that Israel has always been the aggressor. Everything going on in the region can be traced back to Israeli aggression, from the formation of Hamas, to the formation of Hezbollah in Lebannon. .

Not true any which way you look at it.
The Jews started immigrating back to Israel in the mid 19th century. Even then they were attacked constantly by the surrounding Arabs.
The Arabs also attacked the newly formed state of Israel in 1948. The Israelis were content with just getting a place of their own.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Like it or not, the Palestinians actually have a legal right to fire their rockets at Israel. Israel is the one violating the law, but it seems that as long as you have US support, you can do whatever you like. And it also seems that popular support will be with you too, as long as you have uniforms, fighter jets and a 'defense' minister. "Throwing bombs is bad, dropping bombs is good" it seems.

I won’t argue about the legal right – you are very wrong with this point, check international law – no justification to firing rockets or mortar shells into civilian populations under most circumstances.

In regards to popular support – this is given to the Palestinians in most cases, not to the Israelis. The reason for this is that everybody loves the underdog; in particular countries who have been underdogs themselves (Did someone just say Ireland?)
For this reason, Irish public opinion was all in favour of Israel every time in the past when they fought against incredible odds (1948 war, 1967 war, etc).
Irish and global public opinion now leans towards the Palestinians because they are the underdogs.
To the average Joe in the street it doesn’t matter what the Palestinians stand for (read the Hamas charter if you care to learn the truth), what their beliefs are, how they conduct themselves, etc.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 30-12-2008 3:34pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Not true any which way you look at it.
The Jews started immigrating back to Israel in the mid 19th century. Even then they were attacked constantly by the surrounding Arabs.

Jews have been peacefully immigrating to countries all over the world for as long as Judaism has existed. And they were not attacked constantly by the surrounding Arabs. There is a whole range of Zionist falsehood out there.

The whole trouble started when the Zionist terror gangs started murdering Arabs and killing British Army personnel.

The Arabs also attacked the newly formed state of Israel in 1948. The Israelis were content with just getting a place of their own.

I'm not sure what you mean - you can pick out a small slice of any conflict in history and spin it the way you want, like Northern Ireland for example. You can take any tiny piece any claim it was the Irish who 'attacked' the British or the British who 'attacked' the Irish.

You may pick 1948 because it's the year that Israel called for the world to recognise it as a real country, but that doesn't mean the conflict leading up that period never happened.

I won’t argue about the legal right – you are very wrong with this point, check international law – no justification to firing rockets or mortar shells into civilian populations under most circumstances.

Everybody has the legal right to resist a foreign occupying force.

In regards to popular support – this is given to the Palestinians in most cases, not to the Israelis. The reason for this is that everybody loves the underdog; in particular countries who have been underdogs themselves (Did someone just say Ireland?)
For this reason, Irish public opinion was all in favour of Israel every time in the past when they fought against incredible odds (1948 war, 1967 war, etc).
Irish and global public opinion now leans towards the Palestinians because they are the underdogs.
To the average Joe in the street it doesn’t matter what the Palestinians stand for (read the Hamas charter if you care to learn the truth), what their beliefs are, how they conduct themselves, etc.

I find that average Joe actually knows very little about the conflict.

wes · 30-12-2008 3:37pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Not true any which way you look at it.
The Jews started immigrating back to Israel in the mid 19th century. Even then they were attacked constantly by the surrounding Arabs.
The Arabs also attacked the newly formed state of Israel in 1948. The Israelis were content with just getting a place of their own.

Going to some elses country with the intention of setting up your own nation is called an invasion and tend to lead to the native having a fight with the invaders.

Also, just because the Bible says God gave them the land, is hardly something the people living there will accept or the secular Zionist excuse that there ancestors lived there over a 1000 years ago, will also not be accepted by the people living there.

Going to someone else country with the intent of setting up your own is an act of war. The Palestinians were defending themselves against invading European colonists at the time.

munchester29 wrote: »

I won’t argue about the legal right – you are very wrong with this point, check international law – no justification to firing rockets or mortar shells into civilian populations under most circumstances.

In full agreement, but there is no excuse for starving the entire population of Gaza or stealing more and more land in the West Bank either under international law. Of course this is often forgotten for some reason by some.

munchester29 wrote: »

In regards to popular support – this is given to the Palestinians in most cases, not to the Israelis. The reason for this is that everybody loves the underdog; in particular countries who have been underdogs themselves (Did someone just say Ireland?)

The US provide billions of military aid, so that Israel can brutalize the Palestinians. Popular support means nothing in the grand scheme, as long as the US give Israel a blank cheque the conflict will sadly rage.

munchester29 wrote: »

For this reason, Irish public opinion was all in favour of Israel every time in the past when they fought against incredible odds (1948 war, 1967 war, etc).
Irish and global public opinion now leans towards the Palestinians because they are the underdogs.
To the average Joe in the street it doesn’t matter what the Palestinians stand for (read the Hamas charter if you care to learn the truth), what their beliefs are, how they conduct themselves, etc.

The same can be said of Zionism, how many know about Theodre Herzi and the like the fact that they ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in 1948? How about the extremists colonists in the West Bank, who were recently spray painting "Gas the Arabs" in Hebron?

munchester29 · 30-12-2008 3:51pm

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Jews have been peacefully immigrating to countries all over the world for as long as Judaism has existed. And they were not attacked constantly by the surrounding Arabs. There is a whole range of Zionist falsehood out there.

Link to a site that holds accounts of Arab aggression towards Israeli people (not including wars):
http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

As for the “range of Zionist falsehood” – how about “Palestinian falsehood”? have you seen any of that?

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

The whole trouble started when the Zionist terror gangs started murdering Arabs and killing British Army personnel.

Check that link again…

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean - you can pick out a small slice of any conflict in history and spin it the way you want, like Northern Ireland for example. You can take any tiny piece any claim it was the Irish who 'attacked' the British or the British who 'attacked' the Irish.

I seriously doubt you can spin it to show the Irish attacked the British…

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

You may pick 1948 because it's the year that Israel called for the world to recognise it as a real country, but that doesn't mean the conflict leading up that period never happened.

I picked 1948 because that is the year the Israeli state was created. The conflict between Jews and Arabs has existed long before that, but I don’t think you can call it a conflict. Maybe tribal or local clashes between very small groups of combetants.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Everybody has the legal right to resist a foreign occupying force.

Not by any means though. There are very specific limitations on what is “legal” and what isn’t. Although I would agree that countries fight, usually they ignore these laws.

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I find that average Joe actually knows very little about the conflict.

I agree completely.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 30-12-2008 4:07pm

I might drop over and ask the same Palestinians and their supporters the reveal the where abouts of Private Kevin Joyce (18rys old) who was kidnapped and murdered by the Palestinians in Lebanon.

He is still officially the longest held captive in Lebanon.

The Palestinians know the location of his body, but refuse to divulge the information to the Irish government, or to his family.

But instead they want to use Kevin's remains as a political tool in their tussle with between the Irish government and the Israeli's.

MORE ON PTE KEVIN JOYCE.

Guys, we owe the Palestinians very, very little.

anonymous_joe · 30-12-2008 4:10pm

Mairt wrote: »

I might drop over and ask the same Palestinians and their supporters the reveal the where abouts of Private Kevin Joyce (18rys old) who was kidnapped and murdered by the Palestinians in Lebanon.

He is still officially the longest held captive in Lebanon.

The Palestinians know the location of his body, but refuse to divulge the information to the Irish government, or to his family.

But instead they want to use Kevin's remains as a political tool in their tussle with between the Irish government and the Israeli's.

MORE ON PTE KEVIN JOYCE.

Guys, we owe the Palestinians very, very little.

But but, they like terrorists and and and we do too! We have to support them! :rolleyes:

wes · 30-12-2008 4:12pm

Mairt wrote: »

I might drop over and ask the same Palestinians and their supporters the reveal the where abouts of Private Kevin Joyce (18rys old) who was kidnapped and murdered by the Palestinians in Lebanon.

He is still officially the longest held captive in Lebanon.

The Palestinians know the location of his body, but refuse to divulge the information to the Irish government, or to his family.

But instead they want to use Kevin's remains as a political tool in their tussle with between the Irish government and the Israeli's.

MORE ON PTE KEVIN JOYCE.

Guys, we owe the Palestinians very, very little.

So the actions of the few should be blamed on all Palestinians? Thats an interesting pov.

From the article the people who kidnapped him are neither Fatah or Hamas, but rather a smaller group, who can't be said to represent all Palestinians.

So you seem to think all Palestinians and let be honest the vast vast majority had nothing to do with that kidnapping, should be held responsible or know his bodies where abouts? Which considering we are talking about a small group, of whom there leader has been killed already, strikes me as unlikely.

Nodin · 30-12-2008 4:14pm

Mairt wrote: »

I might (.......)
Guys, we owe the Palestinians very, very little.

Weren't a number killed by Israel and their 'Christian militia' as well?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 30-12-2008 4:15pm

wes wrote: »

So the actions of the few should be blamed on Palestinians. Thats an interesting pov.

When the people representing those few know and won't reveal the where abouts of one of your fellow countrymen, then yes I can blaim the many.

anonymous_joe · 30-12-2008 4:17pm

Nodin wrote: »

Weren't a number killed by Israel and their 'Christian militia' as well?

Ya met many Israelis?

They've done some terrible things, but I've never met a single Israeli who didn't want peace. And never heard an Israeli suggest they wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.

Pen1987 · 30-12-2008 4:18pm

I've compiled a "Gaza by numbers" information block over on my blog which is open for people to add too. Anyone with an interest in adding to it feel free to put additional information in using the comments block, please include sources (to establish if the info is partisan or not). Click the signature if you want to access the post.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 30-12-2008 4:21pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Link to a site that holds accounts of Arab aggression towards Israeli people (not including wars):
http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

As for the “range of Zionist falsehood” – how about “Palestinian falsehood”? have you seen any of that?

Give me an example of Palestinian falsehood.

'Terrorism in Israel' - if the site was supposed to be an unbiased account of history, they would be talking about Israel's terror. It reeks of unsourced, biased spin.

But in any case, the dates seem to conflict with what you said earlier. The site says, "The first arab sponsored terrorist attack upon Jews occurred in 1920"

You said:

"The Jews started immigrating back to Israel in the mid 19th century. Even then they were attacked constantly by the surrounding Arabs." Which is it?

Now, if the site claims the first 'Arab sponsored attack' on 'Jews' was in 1920, what they are probably referring to is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots

This happened because of Zionist aggression. The British conquered Palestine and promised it to the Zionist movement. They had no right to. You can't expect the people who were already living there to be happy about that, can you? Would you be happy if the British conquered Ireland and 'gave' it to someone else?

munchester29 wrote: »

I picked 1948 because that is the year the Israeli state was created. The conflict between Jews and Arabs has existed long before that, but I don’t think you can call it a conflict. Maybe tribal or local clashes between very small groups of combetants.

Jews and Arabs get along just fine. Lots of Arabs ARE Jews. Outside of Israel, Iran has the largest Jewish population in the Middle East.

The conflict in Israel is about one people kicking another people out of the homes, driving them into refugee camps and attempting to ethnically cleanse them from the land.

munchester29 wrote: »

Not by any means though. There are very specific limitations on what is “legal” and what isn’t. Although I would agree that countries fight, usually they ignore these laws.

Israel has been subject to more than 500 UN condemnations and 65 Security Counsel resolutions. The Palestinians have been subject to none.

Eoin · 30-12-2008 4:23pm

Mairt wrote: »

When the people representing those few know and won't reveal the where abouts of one of your fellow countrymen, then yes I can blaim the many.

Is that not a bit like blaming all the Irish for the IRA not giving up the location of the disappeared?

OK-Cancel-Apply · 30-12-2008 4:24pm

Irish Zionists... the mind boggles.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 30-12-2008 4:27pm

eoin wrote: »

Is that not a bit like blaming all the Irish for the IRA not giving up the location of the disappeared?

I wonder how many Zionist apologists here would be happy if the RAF bombed Ireland into the stone age every time the IRA set off a car bomb.

wes · 30-12-2008 4:29pm

Mairt wrote: »

When the people representing those few know and won't reveal the where abouts of one of your fellow countrymen, then yes I can blaim the many.

You have proof that Hamas or Fatah know where the body is?

From reading your article is states that it is a small group and there is no proof either Hamas or Fatah know where the body is.

Also, any proof that the protesters would know where the body is as well? The article doesn't provide any such evidence.

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 4:33pm

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I wonder how many Zionist apologists here would be happy if the RAF bombed Ireland into the stone age every time the IRA set off a car bomb.

I don't ever remember voting the IRA into power.

Eoin · 30-12-2008 4:33pm

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I wonder how many Zionist apologists here would be happy if the RAF bombed Ireland into the stone age every time the IRA set off a car bomb.

I'm not sure you took my question in the manner it was intended.

I was just making the comparison between blaming all Palestinians for something that appears to have been conducted by a small group, and the equivalent situation of blaming all Irish people for the IRA not giving up the location of the disappeared.

munchester29 · 30-12-2008 4:36pm

wes wrote: »

Going to some elses country with the intention of setting up your own nation is called an invasion and tend to lead to the native having a fight with the invaders.

You could also call it a comeback – after being kicked out of their homes (Romans), after suffering in the various countries they were exiled to (All the Arab countries, England, Spain, Germany, just to name a few…) the Jews finally returned to their ancestral homeland.

wes wrote: »

Also, just because the Bible says God gave them the land, is hardly something the people living there will accept or the secular Zionist excuse that there ancestors lived there over a 1000 years ago, will also not be accepted by the people living there.

I don’t really care much for the bible and what is said in it.
However, there was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Not just 1000 years ago, but a constant Jewish presence since the days of the Romans and before that.
The most the Palestinians can say is that the number of Arabs in Israel prior to 1948 has been higher than the number of Jews. I have no problem with that.

The UN declaration that gave the Jews a home in Israel actually split the country between the Arabs and the Jews. The Arabs got the bigger part of the country, but were not happy with what they got – they wanted everything, went and started a war and lost.
So, the bully wasn’t happy with the big candy he got, tried to get the small piece of candy from the little boy’s hands, and to the bully’s surprise that little boy showed him what he learned in Karate class and kicked his ass.
And, as bullies do in such cases – they complain to the teacher and blame everything on the other kid.

wes wrote: »

Going to someone else country with the intent of setting up your own is an act of war. The Palestinians were defending themselves against invading European colonists at the time.

Problem is it wasn’t anyone’s country. The country was under a UN mandate, and before that it was under British rule, and before that under Turkish rule.
Kind of makes you wonder why the Palestinians never stood up to the Turks or the British… Maybe it’s because there were no Palestinians up until after 1967 or so?

I have to wonder – what makes you think the Palestinians have a more acceptable claim to the land than the one the Israelis have?

wes wrote: »

In full agreement, but there is no excuse for starving the entire population of Gaza or stealing more and more land in the West Bank either under international law. Of course this is often forgotten for some reason by some.

The US provide billions of military aid, so that Israel can brutalize the Palestinians. Popular support means nothing in the grand scheme, as long as the US give Israel a blank cheque the conflict will sadly rage.

The Palestinians fire rockets and send suicide bombers, the Israelis take control of more land to support their security needs. I have no problem with that.
As for starving the entire population of Gaza – I have yet to see pictures of children in the streets of Gaza that look like the children in Chad or Darfur.
Israel is supplying Gaza with electricity, food, services, etc. The only times these services are interrupted are when Hamas bombs something. Hamas even bombed the border pass through which they are getting all the goods a few months ago – which resulted in the pass shutting down for a few days and causing suffering on the Palestinian side.
I would argue that the suffering the Palestinian people experience is mostly their own fault (their leader’s fault to be exact)

wes wrote: »

The same can be said of Zionism, how many know about Theodre Herzi and the like the fact that they ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in 1948? How about the extremists colonists in the West Bank,

Extremists exist on both sides. The difference between the Israeli extremists and the Palestinian ones is that the Israeli government usually keeps the Jewish extremists in check, while the Palestinian extremists are actually also the Palestinian government and act accordingly.

In addition, I really don’t like the use of the term “ethnic cleansing” in this conflict.
Israel is not and never was out to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. It is also not an apartheid state, as some people suggest.

There are over a million Arabs living in Israel as equal citizens. They have the right to vote and they have their own political parties.
I’m not saying things are perfect – far from it. There is a lot of room for improvement in regards to the Israel government’s treatment of Israeli Arabs, and there is also room for improvement in regards to how the Israeli Arabs interact with the Israeli government/population.

Ethnic cleansing is the mass murder/deportation of whole populaces. It’s what the Nazis did, what is done in Darfur and Chad and other places.
That is not what happens in Israel. No mass murdering of innocents (hell, not even mass murdering of terrorist scumbags!) no mass deportations, etc.

Neamhshuntasach · 30-12-2008 4:40pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ya met many Israelis?

They've done some terrible things, but I've never met a single Israeli who didn't want peace. And never heard an Israeli suggest they wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.

You mustn't meet many Israeli's then. Last Sunday i was sitting with 6 of them who said there is no such thing as Palestine and that it shouldn't exist and that they had every right to claim the west bank and Gaza as Israel. Yeah of course they want peace. But they want that peace only to exist after their Governmental forces kill and exterminate the Palestinians while they turn a blind eye to it. And that is only one instance of Israeli's saying that. I've met many others that have suggested the same thing, but then again i've met many who didn't say it. My point being, Israelis are not all peace loving pacifists who want to co-exist with a Palestinian state as you seem to hint towards.

The Mighty Ken · 30-12-2008 4:48pm

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

You mustn't meet many Israeli's then. Last Sunday i was sitting with 6 of them who said there is no such thing as Palestine and that it shouldn't exist and that they had every right to claim the west bank and Gaza as Israel. Yeah of course they want peace. But they want that peace only to exist after their Governmental forces kill and exterminate the Palestinians while they turn a blind eye to it. And that is only one instance of Israeli's saying that. I've met many others that have suggested the same thing, but then again i've met many who didn't say it. My point being, Israelis are not all peace loving pacifists who want to co-exist with a Palestinian state as you seem to hint towards.

Why were you hanging around with 6 fanatical Israeli bigots? Needless to say, I don't believe you.

Pen1987 · 30-12-2008 4:51pm

this may be of interest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRghMmgQ1kA

Nodin · 30-12-2008 4:53pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Kind of makes you wonder why the Palestinians never stood up to the Turks or the British… Maybe it’s because there were no Palestinians up until after 1967 or so?.

You haven't heard of the Great Arab Rebellion of 1916-18 against the Turks or the Arab Rebellion of 1936-39 against the British? Dear o dear.

The first references to a distinct Palestinian identity date back to before 1914.

munchester29 wrote: »

The Palestinians fire rockets and send suicide bombers, the Israelis take control of more land to support their security needs.

Its a bit odd to see land thats needed for security filled with citizens of the state thats trying to secure itself.

munchester29 wrote: »

Extremists exist on both sides. The difference between the Israeli extremists and the Palestinian ones is that the Israeli government usually keeps the Jewish extremists in check,

Why then is settler violence so common and arrests so rare?

munchester29 wrote: »

There are over a million Arabs living in Israel as equal citizens.

They're treated like shi/te.

munchester29 wrote: »

Ethnic cleansing is the mass murder/deportation of whole populaces. It’s what the Nazis did, what is done in Darfur and Chad and other places.
That is not what happens in Israel. No mass murdering of innocents (hell, not even mass murdering of terrorist scumbags!) no mass deportations, etc.

Happened in 1948 and 1967. Whats happening since is the slow-drip version, particularily in Arab East Jerusalem.

The Saint · 30-12-2008 5:00pm

munchester29 wrote: »

You could also call it a comeback – after being kicked out of their homes (Romans), after suffering in the various countries they were exiled to (All the Arab countries, England, Spain, Germany, just to name a few…) the Jews finally returned to their ancestral homeland.

I don’t really care much for the bible and what is said in it.
However, there was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Not just 1000 years ago, but a constant Jewish presence since the days of the Romans and before that.
The most the Palestinians can say is that the number of Arabs in Israel prior to 1948 has been higher than the number of Jews. I have no problem with that.

The UN declaration that gave the Jews a home in Israel actually split the country between the Arabs and the Jews. The Arabs got the bigger part of the country, but were not happy with what they got – they wanted everything, went and started a war and lost.
So, the bully wasn’t happy with the big candy he got, tried to get the small piece of candy from the little boy’s hands, and to the bully’s surprise that little boy showed him what he learned in Karate class and kicked his ass.
And, as bullies do in such cases – they complain to the teacher and blame everything on the other kid.

Problem is it wasn’t anyone’s country. The country was under a UN mandate, and before that it was under British rule, and before that under Turkish rule.
Kind of makes you wonder why the Palestinians never stood up to the Turks or the British… Maybe it’s because there were no Palestinians up until after 1967 or so?

I have to wonder – what makes you think the Palestinians have a more acceptable claim to the land than the one the Israelis have?

The Palestinians fire rockets and send suicide bombers, the Israelis take control of more land to support their security needs. I have no problem with that.
As for starving the entire population of Gaza – I have yet to see pictures of children in the streets of Gaza that look like the children in Chad or Darfur.
Israel is supplying Gaza with electricity, food, services, etc. The only times these services are interrupted are when Hamas bombs something. Hamas even bombed the border pass through which they are getting all the goods a few months ago – which resulted in the pass shutting down for a few days and causing suffering on the Palestinian side.
I would argue that the suffering the Palestinian people experience is mostly their own fault (their leader’s fault to be exact)

Extremists exist on both sides. The difference between the Israeli extremists and the Palestinian ones is that the Israeli government usually keeps the Jewish extremists in check, while the Palestinian extremists are actually also the Palestinian government and act accordingly.

In addition, I really don’t like the use of the term “ethnic cleansing” in this conflict.
Israel is not and never was out to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. It is also not an apartheid state, as some people suggest.

There are over a million Arabs living in Israel as equal citizens. They have the right to vote and they have their own political parties.
I’m not saying things are perfect – far from it. There is a lot of room for improvement in regards to the Israel government’s treatment of Israeli Arabs, and there is also room for improvement in regards to how the Israeli Arabs interact with the Israeli government/population.

Ethnic cleansing is the mass murder/deportation of whole populaces. It’s what the Nazis did, what is done in Darfur and Chad and other places.
That is not what happens in Israel. No mass murdering of innocents (hell, not even mass murdering of terrorist scumbags!) no mass deportations, etc.

I'm not even going to bother responding to each point in this since you lost all credibility with you're very tenuous grasp of the facts that you've illustrated in the Politics forum.

Oh and Mairt, I think you'll find that Hamas didn't exist at the time that soldier was kidnapped. You might also want to look at the Irish killed by the Israeli's, the Israeli backed Christian militia and the Israeli backed South Lebanon Army. I think you'll find the proportion of Irish peacekeepers killed by these groups to be quite substantial.

wes · 30-12-2008 5:02pm

munchester29 wrote: »

You could also call it a comeback – after being kicked out of their homes (Romans), after suffering in the various countries they were exiled to (All the Arab countries, England, Spain, Germany, just to name a few…) the Jews finally returned to their ancestral homeland.

No, its still an invasion. The excuse for it is nonsensical. Using Zionist logic, anyone can invade any place, as long as you had an ancestor from there or God said so. That what it boils down to. Also, the Palestinians are not at fault for the actions of all the groups you list.

Also, the Palestinians are descendants of all the various people who lived in Israel/Palestine, lots of different people lived there under various different rulers, Cannanite, Jewish, Greek, Roman, Arab, and Ottoman. It was never mono-ethnic state.

munchester29 wrote: »

I don’t really care much for the bible and what is said in it.
However, there was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Not just 1000 years ago, but a constant Jewish presence since the days of the Romans and before that.
The most the Palestinians can say is that the number of Arabs in Israel prior to 1948 has been higher than the number of Jews. I have no problem with that.

Nope, your wrong here. The Palestinians are a mixture of everyone who lived there, including Jews themselves. Just, because they changed there religion to Christianity or Islam, doesn't change the fact of who the are.

munchester29 wrote: »

The UN declaration that gave the Jews a home in Israel actually split the country between the Arabs and the Jews. The Arabs got the bigger part of the country, but were not happy with what they got – they wanted everything, went and started a war and lost.
So, the bully wasn’t happy with the big candy he got, tried to get the small piece of candy from the little boy’s hands, and to the bully’s surprise that little boy showed him what he learned in Karate class and kicked his ass.
And, as bullies do in such cases – they complain to the teacher and blame everything on the other kid.

The majority didn't want partition. The Zionists went against this wish and declared there state in anyways. This will always result in war.

Also,its ridiculous to ask the Palestinians to give up half there country to recently arrived immigrants, no one in the world would agree with that and to paint the Palestinians as unreasonable here, make no sense.

The Zionists went against the will of the majority who rejected partition, they declared there state and started the war.

Also, your forget that they ethnic cleansed the Palestinians, which they intended to do before hand to ensure a Jewish majority.

munchester29 wrote: »

Problem is it wasn’t anyone’s country. The country was under a UN mandate, and before that it was under British rule, and before that under Turkish rule.
Kind of makes you wonder why the Palestinians never stood up to the Turks or the British… Maybe it’s because there were no Palestinians up until after 1967 or so?

The Palestinians had a state under the Ottomans.

Also, the Arabs rebelled during WW1 against them (the Ottomans). I don't know if they rebelled during British rule at any point.

Also, the Palestinians did exist before 1967, as evidenced by there state under the Ottomans. This is a fact. Stating they didn't exist before then is pure nonsense.

munchester29 wrote: »

I have to wonder – what makes you think the Palestinians have a more acceptable claim to the land than the one the Israelis have?

They were living there. People from Europe came and demanded a country and kicked them out. Sorry, I find that personally morally wrong, to go to someone else country and take over and kick out the natives.

Why, do you think its ok for European colonists to set up a state, against the wishes of that natives? The excuse provided a ridiculous.

munchester29 wrote: »

The Palestinians fire rockets and send suicide bombers, the Israelis take control of more land to support their security needs. I have no problem with that.

Care to explain why they are expanding the colonies outside of there "wall"? I posted the link earlier in the thread btw. Be interesting to see what excuse you make up for that.

Also, seeing as its a land conflict, taking more land will make things worse. Grabbing more land is colonization and not defense.

Also, you ignored all the Israel violence against the Palestinians to steal there land and locking them up in a prison in Gaza and starve them. This is not self defense, but aggression. Of course you either pretend its not happening or justify Israel colonial expansion.

munchester29 wrote: »

As for starving the entire population of Gaza – I have yet to see pictures of children in the streets of Gaza that look like the children in Chad or Darfur.
Israel is supplying Gaza with electricity, food, services, etc. The only times these services are interrupted are when Hamas bombs something. Hamas even bombed the border pass through which they are getting all the goods a few months ago – which resulted in the pass shutting down for a few days and causing suffering on the Palestinian side.

Nonsense the UN, the blockade is soley due to Israel and her allies. The fact that Israel has created a situation where the children of Gaza are like children in Darfur is reprehensible and there are no excuses for it.

Israel needs to stop its collective punishment, the same as Hamas.

munchester29 wrote: »

I would argue that the suffering the Palestinian people experience is mostly their own fault (their leader’s fault to be exact)

The occupier is responsible, not the occupied. How you can blame the occupied is ridiculous.

munchester29 wrote: »

Extremists exist on both sides. The difference between the Israeli extremists and the Palestinian ones is that the Israeli government usually keeps the Jewish extremists in check, while the Palestinian extremists are actually also the Palestinian government and act accordingly.

Nonsense, Israeli colonists are funded by the state and provide IDF protection and service from the Israeli government.,

munchester29 wrote: »

In addition, I really don’t like the use of the term “ethnic cleansing” in this conflict.
Israel is not and never was out to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. It is also not an apartheid state, as some people suggest.

Nonsense, Million of Palestinian refugees say other wise. They were kicked out for being the wrong race.

Also, the Jewish only roads in the West Bank, is even worse than the apartheid regime in South Africa.

munchester29 wrote: »

There are over a million Arabs living in Israel as equal citizens. They have the right to vote and they have their own political parties.
I’m not saying things are perfect – far from it. There is a lot of room for improvement in regards to the Israel government’s treatment of Israeli Arabs, and there is also room for improvement in regards to how the Israeli Arabs interact with the Israeli government/population.

There 2nd class citizens plain and simple.

munchester29 wrote: »

Ethnic cleansing is the mass murder/deportation of whole populaces. It’s what the Nazis did, what is done in Darfur and Chad and other places.
That is not what happens in Israel. No mass murdering of innocents (hell, not even mass murdering of terrorist scumbags!) no mass deportations, etc.

Nonsense it did happen in 1948, hence all the refugees.

Pen1987 · 30-12-2008 5:05pm

From a mother from Gaza...

“There is a complete black out in Gaza now. The streets are still as death.”

I am speaking to my father, Moussa El-Haddad, a retired physician who lives in Gaza City, on Skype, from Durham, North Carolina in the United States, where I have been since mid 2006- the month Gaza’s borders were hermetically sealed by Israel, and the blockade of the occupied territory further enforced.

He is out on his balcony. It is 2am.

“I can only see gray plumes of smoke slowly rising all over the city, everywhere I look” he says, as though they were some beautiful, comforting by-product of some hideous, malicious event.

He takes a deep restorative sigh before continuing. “Ehud Barak has gone crazy. He’s gone crazy. He is bombing everywhere and everything…no one is safe”.

Explosions are audible in the background. They sound distant and dull over my laptop’s speakers, but linger like an echo in death’s valley. They evoke terrifying memories of my nights in Gaza only 2 years ago. Nights that till this day haunt my 4 year old son-who refuses to sleep on his own.

“Can you hear them? Our house is shaking. We are shaking from the inside out.”

“Laila-your mother, she is terrified” he adds.

She comes to the phone. “Hello, hello dear,” she mutters, her voice trembling. “I had to go to the bathroom. But I’m afraid to go alone. I wanted to perform wudu before prayer but I was scared. Remember days when we would go to the bathroom together because you were too afraid to go alone?” she laughs at the thought-it seems amusing to her now, that I was scared to find my death in a place of relief; that she is now terrified of the same seemingly ridiculous scenario.

It was really the fear of being alone. When you “hear” the news before it becomes news, you panic for clarity- you want someone to make sense of the situation, package it neatly into comprehensible terms and locations. Just to be sure-its not you this time.

“It’s strange, my whole body is shaking. Why is that? Why is that?” she rambles on, continuous explosions audible in the background. “There they go again. One boom after another. 15. Before that, one or two, maybe 20 total so far.”

Counting makes it’s easier. Systemizing the assaults makes them easier to deal with. More remote.

We speak to each other throughout the day. She calls sometimes to let me know if there are gunships overhead, or explosions around them. As though there was something I could do about it; as though my voice would somehow make them disappear.

They cracked the windows opened, to prevent an implosion.

“By the way we are sleeping in your room now, it’s safer” she tells me, of my empty, abandoned space. My mother’s close friend, Yosra, was asked to evacuate building. They live in a flat near many of the ministry complexes being targeted. They were advised not to go to the mosque for services, lest they be bombed.

Another family friend, an elderly Armenian-Palestinian Christian and retired pharmacist, is paralyzed with fear. Like many residents, she is confined to her home. She lives alone, in front of the Saraya security complex on Omar al-Mukhtar Street. The complex has already been bombed twice. Last night, her windows shattered around her. She went outside to seek help-no one was around. She cried all night. Shards of glass now cover the floors of her home, one that has been in the family for generations.

The small shop down the street from my parents’ home, next to the Kinz mosque where many of the Remal neighbourhood’s affluent residents attend, opens for a little while after prayer. My father goes and gets whatever he can-while he can.

They have one package of bread left, but insist they are ok.

“Those with children are the ones who are truly suffering. Um Ramadan’s grand children will only sleep in her arms now. They are wetting their pants again”.

Yousuf chimes into the conversation unceremoniously, popping his head into my laptop screen.

“Sido? I like the fatoosh you used to make! I miss you. When will the maabar open? Sido…are you ok? ”

“Habibi, when we see other again-if we see each again- I’ll make it for you” he promises. The very possibility seems to comfort him, no matter how illusory.

It is Noor’s one year old birthday January 1. She will turn one. I cannot help but think- who was born in bloodied Gaza today?

http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

munchester29 · 30-12-2008 5:06pm

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

You mustn't meet many Israeli's then. Last Sunday i was sitting with 6 of them who said there is no such thing as Palestine and that it shouldn't exist and that they had every right to claim the west bank and Gaza as Israel. Yeah of course they want peace. But they want that peace only to exist after their Governmental forces kill and exterminate the Palestinians while they turn a blind eye to it. And that is only one instance of Israeli's saying that. I've met many others that have suggested the same thing, but then again i've met many who didn't say it. My point being, Israelis are not all peace loving pacifists who want to co-exist with a Palestinian state as you seem to hint towards.

I wrote this in one of my last replies, I think it fits here also:

Extremists exist on both sides. The difference between the Israeli extremists and the Palestinian ones is that the Israeli government usually keeps the Israeli extremists in check, while the Palestinian extremists are actually also the Palestinian government and act accordingly.

I've yet to see Palestinian peace groups march safely in Gaza...

Steyr · 30-12-2008 6:00pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Crowd moved from Israeli to US Embassy where there was shoe throwing at an effigy of George Bush across from the US Embassy. The US is just as much responsible for this atrocity for supplying arms to Israel.

How am i not suprised that you went to protest at the US Embassy.........your all just anti American. Israel has a right to defend itself with whatever arms it deems necessary, no right minded Nation would just sit back as others fire over missiles into it's territory.

munchester29 · 30-12-2008 6:04pm

wes wrote: »

No, its still an invasion. The excuse for it is nonsensical. Using Zionist logic, anyone can invade any place, as long as you had an ancestor from there or God said so. That what it boils down to. Also, the Palestinians are not at fault for the actions of all the groups you list.

Also, the Palestinians are descendants of all the various people who lived in Israel/Palestine, lots of different people lived there under various different rulers, Cannanite, Jewish, Greek, Roman, Arab, and Ottoman. It was never mono-ethnic state.

So, we can agree that both people have ancient historical roots in the country, but yet, somehow you only see that the Palestinians have a right to own the country?
How come the Jews are not entitled to their piece of land?

wes wrote: »

Nope, your wrong here. The Palestinians are a mixture of everyone who lived there, including Jews themselves. Just, because they changed there religion to Christianity or Islam, doesn't change the fact of who the are.

Yet the fact that the Jews were exiled out of their country somehow does change who they are?

wes wrote: »

The majority didn't want partition. The Zionists went against this wish and declared there state in anyways. This will always result in war.

I don’t know where you got that piece of information, but it’s wrong.
The Jews did accept the partition, and thousands of Israelis went out to the streets and started dancing out of joy when they found out about the UN decision.
The few who were against the partition idea didn’t even speak out much against it, since they all knew that no matter what the UN decision was, the Arabs will attack anyway – arguing about it was pointless.

wes wrote: »

Also,its ridiculous to ask the Palestinians to give up half there country to recently arrived immigrants, no one in the world would agree with that and to paint the Palestinians as unreasonable here, make no sense.

We have established already that there always was a Jewish settlement in Israel. After most of the Jews were exiled in ancient times, there were more non-Jews than Jews, that is true – but the Jews were still there none the less. I specifically say non Jews and not Palestinians, because there were no Palestinians at the time, only Arabs – they had no national entity to identify with, and the term “Palestinians” was not used prior to the late 60’s (I think).
The Palestinians were not asked to give up half of their country, they were asked to share a newly formed country with the Jews, and we all know how that ended.

wes wrote: »

The Zionists went against the will of the majority who rejected partition, they declared there state and started the war.

So the Israelis started the 1948 war? Is that what you are saying?
They simply rose and attacked all the unsuspecting surrounding Arab countries and their Arab neighbours?

I would like some proof of that if you don’t mind, since it seems every historian in the world kind of disagrees with what you said.

wes wrote: »

Also, your forget that they ethnic cleansed the Palestinians, which they intended to do before hand to ensure a Jewish majority.

Please read the following statement sent to the Irish times by Benny Morris, who is often quoted by Palestinian supporters, so you can’t blame him for being biased:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23624754-20261,00.html

To sum things up: allegations of ethnic cleansing are mostly crap.

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians had a state under the Ottomans.

Also, the Palestinians did exist before 1967, as evidenced by there state under the Ottomans. This is a fact. Stating they didn't exist before then is pure nonsense.

There never was a Palestinian state under the Ottomans. It kind of went against everything they were trying to do in occupied territories.

wes wrote: »

They were living there. People from Europe came and demanded a country and kicked them out. Sorry, I find that personally morally wrong, to go to someone else country and take over and kick out the natives.

Well, the way I see it:
People who used to live there before the Palestinians came from Europe & Africa, after almost being annihilated in the countries they were exiled to.
I think that an old injustice was rectified when the Jews received their old homeland back.
The only reason it is at the expense of the Palestinians is due to the Palestinian stubbornness that everything is theirs. Note that even the surrounding Arab countries acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, while the Palestinians don’t.
They are kind of stubborn that way…

wes wrote: »

Why, do you think its ok for European colonists to set up a state, against the wishes of that natives? The excuse provided a ridiculous.

It’s not an excuse – it’s called life.
Most of the Arab states were founded by European colonists.
The US was taken from the Indians.
All of Europe looks like it does now because of wars and conquests.

I know – It’s ugly, it’s not nice, it’s annoying, it’s this and it’s that – but the bottom line is – that’s life, and life is not always pleasant or peachy creamy coloured with lovely pink rainbows and unicorns.

wes wrote: »

Care to explain why they are expanding the colonies outside of there "wall"? I posted the link earlier in the thread btw. Be interesting to see what excuse you make up for that.

I can actually think of several:
1. Security reasons (preventing attacks and suicide bombings, supplying Israelis with safe areas to drive through, etc).
2. The Israelis are smart enough to know that when the time comes and both sides really sit to negotiate peace, each settlement is a playing card in the negotiations. They are stacking cards.
3. They are pissed at the Palestinians and do it out of spite.

wes wrote: »

Also, you ignored all the Israel violence against the Palestinians to steal there land and locking them up in a prison in Gaza and starve them. This is not self defense, but aggression. Of course you either pretend its not happening or justify Israel colonial expansion.

I really believe that the day the Palestinians stop attacking Israel, will be the last day a Palestinian dies from an Israeli bullet.
I don’t think the Palestinians are starving.
I believe the Palestinians are suffering greatly because they use funds sent to them by sympathetic countries to equip themselves with guns & explosives, instead of using those funds to better their lives.
They are also suffering because that is one of the Hamas’s playing cards against Israel – another chip in the war over public opinion. That’s why Hamas attacked a border pass used to transfer food & fuel to Gaza, that’s why hospitals in Gaza are complaining about fuel shortages – they don’t have a fuel shortage – Hamas has taken control of the fuel dumps, and will use them in the fight against Israel, not to better the lives of the Palestinians.

I think that most of the Palestinian suffering is their own fault. Violence begets violence, and since Israel’s hands are tied most of the time (we haven’t seen Israeli divisions roll over Gaza yet), they fight the Palestinian in other ways – confiscating lands for security reasons, inspecting shipments into Gaza, etc.

wes wrote: »

Nonsense the UN, the blockade is soley due to Israel and her allies. The fact that Israel has created a situation where the children of Gaza are like children in Darfur is reprehensible and there are no excuses for it.

The children of Gaza suffer, but so do Israeli children who live with daily rocket threats, mortar bombings and suicide bombings.
Also, I think the children in Darfur are much worse off than the children in Gaza. The dead numbers speak for themselves in such cases.

wes wrote: »

Israel needs to stop its collective punishment, the same as Hamas.

I agree. I would like to see Hamas stop all hostilities for just one week though…

wes wrote: »

Israel The occupier is responsible, not the occupied. How you can blame the occupied is ridiculous.

By the same logic, you can say that it’s OK for prison inmates to kill guards, judges and lawyers… I mean – you and I think they should be in prison, society thinks they should be in prison – but I’ll bet the prisoners themselves don’t agree with that…

Israel left Gaza – look what that got her – instead of reducing the number of attacks because of this step towards peace, the attacks actually intensified.
So who is responsible for the violence intensification? Is it the occupier who left, or the occupied who just wants one thing?

wes wrote: »

Nonsense, Israeli colonists are funded by the state and provide IDF protection and service from the Israeli government

And the Palestinian authority finances suicide bombers, and other terrorist activities.
So let’s spank them both and send them to bed…

wes wrote: »

Nonsense, Million of Palestinian refugees say other wise. They were kicked out for being the wrong race.

Seriously, the refugees again?

The same thing can be said by the almost a million Jewish refugees who lost everything they had when they had to leave the surrounding Arab countries after 1948, 1967, etc.

The differences between the Jewish refugees and the Palestinian refugees:
The Jewish refugees had much more property and money than their Palestinian counterparts.
The Jewish refugees immediately started working on rebuilding their lives when they got to Israel, while the Palestinian refugees basically sat in refugee camps and moaned about their bad luck and all they lost.

Something that is common to both refugee camps:
No one but themselves really expects them to get everything they lost back. The Israeli refugees don’t really expect that anyway.

I think that whenever the Palestinian refugee questions rises, someone should mention the Jewish refugees also. I mean – if the Palestinians are to be compensated, then The Jewish ones should be compensated too, right?

Steyr · 30-12-2008 6:16pm

Poccington wrote: »

If you break a ceasefire, launch a rocket attack at another country and kill one of it's citizens... Don't start crying when they hit back.

Sums it all up really, Hamas deserve everything they are gonna get thrown at them and it's gonna hurt.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 30-12-2008 6:19pm

Steyr wrote: »

Sums it all up really, Hamas deserve everything they are gonna get thrown at them and it's gonna hurt.

Right, so you think the conflict started when a rocket was fired into Israel?

Protests over Gaza deaths at 5PM Today (Monday) outside Israeli Embassy..

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