So bored of this Us v Them attitude

NewDubliner

Sand wrote: »

the private sector mules paying those unions pay demands?

Ah, yes the pious, saintly private sector. A private sector that doesn't overcharge for goods and services, with no over-priced houses, clean food, no price-fixing cartels, no directors gambling for personal gain with customers money. A private sector with no touch-tone hell when trying to get some customer service, and which doesn't disconnect when you do get through.

Sand

Ah, yes the pious, saintly private sector. A private sector that doesn't overcharge for goods and services, with no over-priced houses, clean food, no price-fixing cartels, no directors gambling for personal gain with customers money. A private sector with no touch-tone hell when trying to get some customer service, and which doesn't disconnect when you do get through.

Yup, the private sector that pays for everything, that actually carries out the economic activity that is taxed and pays for everything else [ I wont even bother with a run down of the "services" the public sector provides, because lets face it....its too easy].

Thats the mules I am talking about.

BroomBurner

BroomBurner wrote: »

I agree with you about the Greens, they should be showing some backbone right now.

I also voted for them as I have political ideals and they are a party that are based on ideals. Whether anyone agrees/disagrees with these ideals if for another thread. However, if they want me to vote for them again, they must prove that they really are about having ideals and morals and should at the very least threaten FF with leaving government and destabilising them. At least to give them a lesson.

They have threatened to leave govt
they were told to shut it

*Honey*

Sand wrote: »

Yup, the private sector that pays for everything, that actually carries out the economic activity that is taxed and pays for everything else [ I wont even bother with a run down of the "services" the public sector provides, because lets face it....its too easy].

Thats the mules I am talking about.

Yeah... the public service only provides people with doctors and nurses for when they're ill, fire service for when your house is on fire, educators so we're not all complete morons (though it hasn't helped some)... etc etc etc. Dreadful waste of money isn't it?

Anyway, enough of my raised hackles.....

We all know that there is fat in the public sector but by tarring everyone with the same brush, you condemn those who've worked hard all their lives - there are also very bad employers and employees in the private sector too ..... nobody is a saint, there are bad and good on both sides. Hence why bother with the Us and Them attitudes .. it gets us nowhere, doesn't solve a single thing and lets those who have put us in this situation get away with it.

*Honey*

bluewolf wrote: »

They have threatened to leave govt
they were told to shut it

Where, when, what?

Lemming

*Honey* wrote: »

Everyone, every public worker and all those who've lost their jobs along with their family and friends should be marching tomorrow - to show this Government just what the public sector thinks of them!!!

I've fixed that for you Honey.

Please don't dress tomorrows march up as some "for the good of the country" thing. It's not. It's a march against the pension levy on the public sector, by the public sector. To pretend this march is anything else is nothing short of insulting.

And incidentally, however blunt and provocative Sand may be in his posting, he's right on one thing ... if the public sector is having kittens over this levy, god help them [and the rest of us having to suffer their reaction] when the next raft of measures come in. The sh*ts already on the way and the turkey's aren't going to vote for Christmas so why ask if they want it early.

turgon

Lemming wrote: »

Please don't dress tomorrows march up as some "for the good of the country" thing. It's not.

Im sure Honey will sweep that under the carpet as simply the "US vs THEM" attitude that has apparently grown on boards, while failing to see the greed of the public sector.

*Honey*

I can only speak from my own situation, but some of my friends who have lost their jobs (and yes, they have done in the public service) are coming tomorrow so you may believe it's only the Unions organising it for the public service to complain, but, in fact, lots of others are coming too because they want to have a voice.

You may not like it, you may say that I'm "sweeping it under the carpet", but that's what's happening for me personally, with my friends and colleagues. I've read of other posts on here where people, who are not public service workers, going to march too.

People want a voice - this allows them to have one.

You might not like it and want to continue with the public sector bashing, but it's happening.

NewDubliner

Lemming wrote: »

I've fixed that for you Honey.

What have you fixed exactly?

Lemming wrote: »

god help them [and the rest of us having to suffer their reaction] when the next raft of measures come in. The sh*ts already on the way and the turkey's aren't going to vote for Christmas so why ask if they want it early.

It seems like you're looking forward, with some relish, to everyone being miserable.

AMIIAM

Honey, After you tick your box/next box on polling day , your voice falls on deaf ears.

Lemming

NewDubliner wrote: »

What have you fixed exactly?

Take a look at the Honey's quote above what I said. I edited it to reflect the actual reality of the march tomorrow and what she really meant to say.

It seems like you're looking forward, with some relish, to everyone being miserable.

Quite the contrary. If everyone's miserable, then I'm miserable by inference. And I'd rather take a pass on that one if you don't mind.

I am however very much concerned that the public sector has gone apocalyptic over what is by comparison on the lighter side of what the rest of the country is as a whole having to bear. The measures to come (and there' plenty for everyone to suffer under mark my words) are going to be worse, and if the public sector can't get their heads around this levy - however unfair it is in its application- well then god help each and every one of us.

NewDubliner

Lemming wrote: »

Take a look at the Honey's quote above what I said. I edited it to reflect the actual reality of the march tomorrow and what she really meant to say.

It seemed like you'd altered a post you disagreed with. Sorry, my mistake.

Lemming wrote: »

if the public sector can't get their heads around this levy - however unfair it is in its application- well then god help each and every one of us.

The public sector is quite well educated about the issues and the bigger picture.

Lemming

NewDubliner wrote: »

The public sector is quite well educated about the issues and the bigger picture.

The message they're putting out would seem to very much contradict that assertion I'm afraid. This is but #1 of a long list of very painful measures to come. And this isn't even a particularly painful measure in itself. That the public sector took very little time at all to whip themselves into a strike frenzy over this worries me when there's much, much worse to come.

I suppose the march will be good practice for when the IMF come in ... we'll all have plenty of time on our hands by then.

livvy

the government boys and girls must rub their hands with glee in seeing how the nation has responded to this crisis - we attack each other in the old public v private debate. I read in another thread the divide and conquer theory and it makes sense. We spend so much time attacking each other the focus on the bad handling of the situation is lost.

Lemming

livvy wrote: »

the government boys and girls must rub their hands with glee in seeing how the nation has responded to this crisis - we attack each other in the old public v private debate. I read in another thread the divide and conquer theory and it makes sense. We spend so much time attacking each other the focus on the bad handling of the situation is lost.

The divide & conquer makes sense if you have a government devious and capable enough of it. The government does not match either description.

But yes you're right, the focus on the bad handling of the situation has been lost. The public sector workers are so whipped up into a frenzy that they've lost sight of the fact that it was their own union leaders playing political theatrics for self-interest and selling them down the river.

The government, ham-fisted as it is, is not the main party to blame for this. The unions entered talks with a 1998 confrontational mindset and effectively said "f*ck you" to every single tax payer in this country. That they then said "f*ck you" to every single one of their members seems to have escaped the attentions of their members ... The money isn't there, and the government has few if any choices open to it. A softly-softly approach was never on the cards, nor was it feasible in any case.

The main source of this "private vs. public" sector bullsh*t has been the public sector unions. They pointed to the private sector and bemoaned "why they should be the ones to pay", whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that the rest of the country was indeed already paying a steep price. The message portrayed by the public sector unions is one of abdication of responsibility and so-called "solidarity". That message is the one that's fueling the private vs. public sector standoff.

Sand

Yeah... the public service only provides people with doctors and nurses for when they're ill, fire service for when your house is on fire, educators so we're not all complete morons (though it hasn't helped some)... etc etc etc. Dreadful waste of money isn't it?

You're putting some words into my mouth there - Id actually have a lot of sympathy for public service workers on the "frontlines", though that might be understandable given my father is a guard and my mother a teacher [ I might even attend tommorrow, with the peer pressure i am under...]. That doesnt mean I am blind to the reality of the incredible waste and inefficiency of the public sector as a whole. Especially when you consider railway workers considering strike action for more pay because the trains they drive will have more carraiges attached....as if theyll be pushing the trains along.

And the point I didnt underline for NewDub is that if he is unhappy with the service he receives from one entity in the private sector he can move his business to a new entity, punishing bad service and rewarding good service. Competition, you might have heard your friends in the private sector mentioning it once or twice. Your unions reps might have mentioned it too, before swiftly making the sign of the cross to ward off evil.

In terms of the Irish public service, the only option if youre unhappy with the service you receive is emigration....Oh wait, we are famous for that...

And incidentally, however blunt and provocative Sand may be in his posting, he's right on one thing

TBH, I've always considered myself to be reserved and thoughtful in my posting. Youre right about me being right though.

the government boys and girls must rub their hands with glee in seeing how the nation has responded to this crisis - we attack each other in the old public v private debate. I read in another thread the divide and conquer theory and it makes sense. We spend so much time attacking each other the focus on the bad handling of the situation is lost.

The unions werent so slow about kicking up a public vs private sector divide when arguing for benchmarking...

Of course, they shut up very quickly when they realised benchmarking public servants to private sector pay would actually lead to pay cuts for the public sector.

Of course, now that the chosen ones feel threatened, its time for solidarity. Theres a golden circle in Ireland, true. But theres a brass circle too.

K-9

Sand wrote: »

The unions werent so slow about kicking up a public vs private sector divide when arguing for benchmarking...

Of course, they shut up very quickly when they realised benchmarking public servants to private sector pay would actually lead to pay cuts for the public sector.

Of course, now that the chosen ones feel threatened, its time for solidarity. Theres a golden circle in Ireland, true. But theres a brass circle too.

Well said.

Benchmarking, which we are still paying for, every bloody year.

I see the levy as a payback for a benchmarking system we couldn't afford, banking bail outs or not. And yes, this was pointed out at the time and the Unions ignored it.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

Well said.

Benchmarking, which we are still paying for, every bloody year.

I see the levy as a payback for a benchmarking system we couldn't afford, banking bail outs or not. And yes, this was pointed out at the time and the Unions ignored it.

The private sector were happy to carry on also with the arrangement as it stood (as they were rolling in it) so it's pretty irrelevant who ignored what at this stage. Or was it up to the unions to lead government policy at this time but any attempt to influence govt policy now is to be strongly resisted?

K-9

EF wrote: »

The private sector were happy to carry on also with the arrangement as it stood (as they were rolling in it) so it's pretty irrelevant who ignored what at this stage. Or was it up to the unions to lead government policy at this time but any attempt to influence govt policy now is to be strongly resisted?

No, Unions membership is largely Public Sector.

The media gave out stink about benchmarking but some didn't listen.

In fact you may find the same people who warned about the Construction boom also warned about Benchmarking.

You see waste is waste to me, I don't care if it's Unions or big business. Unions seem to ignore one and concentrate on the other.

The Govt. was happy with benchmarking and pay increase despite warnings. People said these Tax Revenues are unsustainable, stop spending them on Benchmarking which we'll pay forever, but it was ignored.

Benchmarking was the first bank bail out.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

No, Unions membership is largely Public Sector.

The media gave out stink about benchmarking but some didn't listen.

In fact you may find the same people who warned about the Construction boom also warned about Benchmarking.

You see waste is waste to me, I don't care if it's Unions or big business. Unions seem to ignore one and concentrate on the other.

The Govt. was happy with benchmarking and pay increase despite warnings. People said these Tax Revenues are unsustainable, stop spending them on Benchmarking which we'll pay forever, but it was ignored.

Benchmarking was the first bank bail out.

The same way as unions were prepared to continue to fight for a decent level of income for their members, the big businesses were prepared to pay unsustainable incomes for their workers. It was going to lead to an inevitable collapse of the cards as we have seen now yet the unions (both public and private) are being absolutely hammered now for their stance of opposing the government's position. If the same big businesses had any regard for their workers they would have sought cuts in the wages of their employees to sustain the long term employment prospects of their workers but they have cut all ties, upped ship and left our shores.

K-9

EF wrote: »

The same way as unions were prepared to continue to fight for a decent level of income for their members, the big businesses were prepared to pay unsustainable incomes for their workers.

YEP, Unions wanted to get the same unsustainable incomes.

EF wrote:

It was going to lead to an inevitable collapse of the cards as we have seen now yet the unions (both public and private) are being absolutely hammered now for their stance of opposing the government's position. If the same big businesses had any regard for their workers they would have sought cuts in the wages of their employees to sustain the long term employment prospects of their workers but they have cut all ties, upped ship and left our shores.

No they have not. Links?

I think you are letting certain businesses cloud your posts.

PS. Employers have campaigned for cuts in wages. Guess who opposed them?

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

YEP, Unions wanted to get the same unsustainable incomes.



No they have not. Links?

I think you are letting certain businesses cloud your posts.

PS. Employers have campaigned for cuts in wages. Guess who opposed them?

So are you prepared to say that all multi-national companies who operate(d) in this State have explored every alternative to cutting thousands of jobs here to the detriment of the workers who diligently served them with their hard work during the boom times, without full negotiation of a potential alternative to the prospect of 100% cuts?

K-9

EF wrote: »

So are you prepared to say that all multi-national companies who operate(d) in this State have explored every alternative to cutting thousands of jobs here to the detriment of the workers who diligently served them with their hard work during the boom times, without full negotiation of a potential alternative to the prospect of 100% cuts?

No.

Your quote:

EF wrote:

If the same big businesses had any regard for their workers they would have sought cuts in the wages of their employees to sustain the long term employment prospects of their workers but they have cut all ties, upped ship and left our shores.

My reply:

K-9 wrote:

No they have not. Links?

I think you are letting certain businesses cloud your posts.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

No.

Your quote:


My reply:


Can you please answer a question before asking one of the same person?

The position of SR technics should be a benchmark to the rest of the country as a whole in that they are prepared to stay in the country until all avenues have been negotiated and exhausted and I hope that as many jobs that can be saved will be saved.
Dell and Waterford Crystal and Bulmers and many many others who havent made headline news seem from information in the public domain to be prepared to shed jobs. It seems to be an opportunistic position to maintain profits rather than have due regard to the plight of their employees who have served them so well over the boom times and are being left high and dry

K-9

EF wrote: »

The position of SR technics should be a benchmark to the rest of the country as a whole in that they are prepared to stay in the country until all avenues have been negotiated and exhausted and I hope that as many jobs that can be saved will be saved.
Dell and Waterford Crystal and Bulmers and many many others who havent made headline news seem from information in the public domain to be prepared to shed jobs. It seems to be an opportunistic position to maintain profits rather than have due regard to the plight of their employees who have served them so well over the boom times and are being left high and dry

I'm afraid you haven't answered my direct question.

EF wrote:

The same way as unions were prepared to continue to fight for a decent level of income for their members, the big businesses were prepared to pay unsustainable incomes for their workers. It was going to lead to an inevitable collapse of the cards as we have seen now yet the unions (both public and private) are being absolutely hammered now for their stance of opposing the government's position. If the same big businesses had any regard for their workers they would have sought cuts in the wages of their employees to sustain the long term employment prospects of their workers but they have cut all ties, upped ship and left our shores.

K-9 wrote:

I think you are letting certain businesses cloud your posts.

PS. Employers have campaigned for cuts in wages. Guess who opposed them?

*Honey*

AMIIAM wrote: »

Honey, After you tick your box/next box on polling day , your voice falls on deaf ears.

So are you saying to me that I shouldn't really bother, be apathetic because where will it get me in the end? Isn't that what we've done for years? Don't you think, by now, we'd have learnt our lesson? The Government are voted in by us to be our representatives.... therefore they should be representing us. If they are not, we should tell them. Not sit on our lazy fat arses and just bitch and whine and then don't do a damn thing about it.

*Honey*

Lemming wrote: »

Take a look at the Honey's quote above what I said. I edited it to reflect the actual reality of the march tomorrow and what she really meant to say.

I'd really rather you didn't put words in my mouth, thanks all the same.

I said what I meant to say - you didn't "fix" anything for me. RTE News last night said that SR Technics and Waterford Crystal workers (ex workers) will be marching too.... they're not public service so your point is, I'm afraid, dead in the water. I've also said that there are people posting on this board who are also not public service workers who said they will be marching because they want to have a voice. They have gotten over the Us V Them attitude and seen beyond it - they want to have a voice to this Government.

In my own experience, friends of mine who've lost jobs in both the public and private sector are also coming - because they also want a voice and want to be heard.

So I'm afraid you fixed nothing for me and I'd rather not you tell me what I really meant to say. If I really meant to say, I'd have said it.

*Honey*

EF wrote: »

The position of SR technics should be a benchmark to the rest of the country as a whole in that they are prepared to stay in the country until all avenues have been negotiated and exhausted and I hope that as many jobs that can be saved will be saved.
Dell and Waterford Crystal and Bulmers and many many others who havent made headline news seem from information in the public domain to be prepared to shed jobs. It seems to be an opportunistic position to maintain profits rather than have due regard to the plight of their employees who have served them so well over the boom times and are being left high and dry

+1

AMIIAM

Honey, Are you really that THICK???

NewDubliner

Sand wrote: »

And the point I didnt underline for NewDub is that if he is unhappy with the service he receives from one entity in the private sector he can move his business to a new entity, punishing bad service and rewarding good service. Competition, you might have heard your friends in the private sector mentioning it once or twice.

How very PD of you.

How do you punish a private-sector monopoly or cartel?