Vaccines - Now my daughter won't be getting the vaccine

tallaght01

norrie rugger wrote: »

ok 11/9 (I hate the American way of dates) has raised its ugly head and Zeitgeist has been mentioned.

Really would hope that this thread is deleted/locked or moved to the quack forum.

All of us with Science and Medical backgrounds are part of Da Man. We are brainwashing the ignorant public. Regardless of the fact that we all are vaccinated and have/intend to have our kids vaccinated.

The worst thing you can do with people who have poorly informed views is further isolate them.

I'm happy to leave things here, where we can at least keep an eye on the misinformation. Imagine how this would snowball in the conspiracy theories forum.

We can't just surround ourselves with people who agree with us, but I take the point that there has to be a line.

norrie rugger

tallaght01 wrote: »

The worst thing you can do with people who have poorly informed views is further isolate them.

I'm happy to leave things here, where we can at least keep an eye on the misinformation. Imagine how this would snowball in the conspiracy theories forum.

We can't just surround ourselves with people who agree with us, but I take the point that there has to be a line.

Sorry,
Should have made it a bit clearer. I have no problem in trying to educate people, as to why I follow a particular line.

What I can not stand is the people who will counter actual evidence with random "look at the twin towers maaaaaaannn" and the such.
These people are either trolling or are wearing tin foil hats and can not be reasoned with

Capt'n Midnight

norrie rugger wrote: »

ok 11/9 (I hate the American way of dates) has raised its ugly head and Zeitgeist has been mentioned.

Don't worry it's just a variation on Godwin.


For some vaccines the biggest cost isn't the vaccine, it's the insurance in case people try to sue.

Figures for the USA - the country with the most lawyers
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071113165636.htm

For eight diseases for which a vaccine was licensed or recommended prior to 1980, the comparison of the period before national vaccination recommendations vs. the 2006 number of reported cases shows greater than 99 percent declines in the number of cases for diphtheria (100 percent), measles (99.9 percent), paralytic poliomyelitis (100 percent), rubella (99.9 percent), congenital rubella syndrome (99.3 percent), and smallpox (100 percent). Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide, and endemic transmission of poliovirus, measles virus, and rubella virus has been eliminated in the United States. T

here were no reported deaths due to diphtheria, measles, mumps, paralytic poliomyelitis, or rubella; deaths due to congenital rubella syndrome are not reported. The decline in cases of mumps was 95.9 percent, of tetanus 92.9 percent, and of pertussis 92.2 percent. The decline in tetanus deaths was 99.2 percent and in pertussis deaths 99.3 percent. Whooping cough

For five diseases for which a vaccine was licensed or recommended after 1980 but before 2005, cases of invasive Hib disease declined 99.8 percent or greater and deaths declined 99.5 percent or greater; for hepatitis A, reduction in cases was 87.0 percent, deaths 86.9 percent; a decrease of 80.1 percent in cases and 80.2 percent in deaths for acute hepatitis B; a decline of 34.1 percent in cases and 25.4 percent in deaths for invasive pneumococcal disease; and a reduction of 85.0 percent in cases and 81.9 percent in deaths for varicella. Hospitalizations declined by 87.0 percent for hepatitis A, 80.1 percent for acute hepatitis B, and 88.0 percent for varicella.

"The number of cases of most vaccine-preventable diseases is at an all-time low; hospitalizations and deaths from vaccine-preventable diseases have also shown striking decreases.

Should the VHI/Bupa offer discounts to people who have been vaccinated / load premiums for those that haven't ?

Should people who reject a vaccination be liable to be sued for by anyone they infect or by the state for costs over and above hospitalisation , like having to vaccinate those they have been in contact / loss of earnings from reduced tourism.

samson09

Look, I'm not going to get involved in a who's right/who's wrong type debate that could possibly go on for weeks. In my opinion, based on what I have read, I have come to the conclusion that vaccines do more harm than good. I will never vaccinate myself, my children or even my pets again. Instead I will continue to provide myself with the proper foods and supplements such as Echinacea and zinc to keep my immune system function at an optimal level.

May I add that I am not a complete idiot either. I hold a PhD in nutritional medicine and have spent countless hours going through all the facts. My opinion was not formed after reading one or two articles on the internet like some of you may think. A good source of information is naturalnews.com, I have personally checked all of the references on any HPV vaccine related story and they ALL check out.

If you are interested in protecting your own health you might read the following article:

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_HPV_Vaccine_0.html

If you dont even have the decency to flick through this before you comment on it, well....don't bother commenting. If you read it and are still not convinced then I guess that we will have to respect each others opinions. Please remember that I have absolutely nothing to gain by posting info. such as this. It is done purely out of my concern for others and if I was unsure about anything I was saying, I wouldn't say it.

994

samson09 wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that vaccines do more harm than good. I will never vaccinate myself, my children or even my pets again.

Smallpox, 20th century: 300–500 million deaths
Smallpox, 21st century: Zero deaths

Thank God they took care of that before the Internet was invented.

Spear

samson09 wrote: »

I hold a PhD in nutritional medicine

From what university?

samson09

994 wrote: »

Smallpox, 20th century: 300–500 million deaths
Smallpox, 21st century: Zero deaths

Thank God they took care of that before the Internet was invented.

Thank God there's still a few independent thinkers out there...

http://www.relfe.com/vaccine.html

AtomicHorror

samson09 wrote: »

Look, I'm not going to get involved in a who's right/who's wrong type debate that could possibly go on for weeks. In my opinion, based on what I have read, I have come to the conclusion that vaccines do more harm than good.

Primary papers on this? Large scale trials? Anything else is worthless, your opinion included.

samson09 wrote: »

will never vaccinate myself, my children or even my pets again. Instead I will continue to provide myself with the proper foods and supplements such as Echinacea and zinc to keep my immune system function at an optimal level.

Show me the data which demonstrates that these work to prevent viral infections. Large scale randomised trials or nothing.

samson09 wrote: »

May I add that I am not a complete idiot either. I hold a PhD in nutritional medicine and have spent countless hours going through all the facts.

I know plenty of idiots who also have PhDs. Where did you get that PhD., was it by primary research, is it accredited and is nutritional medicine a codeword for naturopathy? Frankly, your qualification would be irrelevant even if it was a PhD. in viral immunology. The evidence is what counts.

samson09 wrote: »

My opinion was not formed after reading one or two articles on the internet like some of you may think. A good source of information is naturalnews.com,

Terrible website. Give us primary sources please.

samson09 wrote: »

I have personally checked all of the references on any HPV vaccine related story and they ALL check out.

When you say they all check out, what does that actually mean? They were peer reviewed? Does that mean they used adequate controls? No. Does it mean they randomised properly? Again no? Does it mean the study size was significant? Once again no. Most critically, referring to a peer-reviewed paper doesn't mean that it actually supports your contention. Did you fully read all sources and assess what hypotheses were actually confirmed?

samson09 wrote: »

If you are interested in protecting your own health you might read the following article:

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_HPV_Vaccine_0.html

If you dont even have the decency to flick through this before you comment on it, well....don't bother commenting. If you read it and are still not convinced then I guess that we will have to respect each others opinions.

You claim to have a science qualification. In what world does a scientist respect anyone's opinion?

samson09 wrote: »

Please remember that I have absolutely nothing to gain by posting info. such as this. It is done purely out of my concern for others and if I was unsure about anything I was saying, I wouldn't say it.

How sure are you? Because lives hang in the balance and poor advice kills. You'd want to have masses of really good data and I don't see you sharing it with us.

samson09 wrote: »

I know you are right and I know how it feels like your banging your head against a brick wall. You have to remember that people have been literally brainwashed into believing everything that they are told by doctors, scientists and even government.

If you suppose that we can be brainwashed then surely so can you? Tell me, how exactly have you established that your "alternative" is actually anything of the sort? And where's the evidence of brainwashing? Or the motive, for that matter?

Capt'n Midnight

Yet again mumps in third level education. It was on the RTE news today.
DKIT http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055503218

26 November 2008 http://www.rte.ie/tv/theafternoonshow/2008/1126/health661.html

So far in 2008 there have been 927 reported cases of mumps compared to 142 in 2007 (6 times as many!).

Oh yeah, there is NO effective treatment for most of the diseases we vaccinate against, the best that can be done is treat the symptoms.

Dr Galen

samson09 wrote: »

Look, I'm not going to get involved in a who's right/who's wrong type debate that could possibly go on for weeks. In my opinion, based on what I have read, I have come to the conclusion that vaccines do more harm than good. I will never vaccinate myself, my children or even my pets again. Instead I will continue to provide myself with the proper foods and supplements such as Echinacea and zinc to keep my immune system function at an optimal level.

May I add that I am not a complete idiot either. I hold a PhD in nutritional medicine and have spent countless hours going through all the facts. My opinion was not formed after reading one or two articles on the internet like some of you may think. A good source of information is naturalnews.com, I have personally checked all of the references on any HPV vaccine related story and they ALL check out.

If you are interested in protecting your own health you might read the following article:

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_HPV_Vaccine_0.html

If you dont even have the decency to flick through this before you comment on it, well....don't bother commenting. If you read it and are still not convinced then I guess that we will have to respect each others opinions. Please remember that I have absolutely nothing to gain by posting info. such as this. It is done purely out of my concern for others and if I was unsure about anything I was saying, I wouldn't say it.

and you claim that some of us have been brainwashed? Fcuk me.....someone crack out Mulder and Scully......

the FDA says, "The HPV DNA test is not intended to substitute for regular Pap screening. Nor is it intended to screen women under 30 who have normal Pap tests. Although the rate of HPV infection in this group is high, most infections are short-lived and not associated with cervical cancer."

and your "scientific website says...

In other words, HPV infections do not cause cervical cancer! Remember, the entire push for mandatory HPV vaccinations of young girls across the country has been the urgent call to "save" these young girls from cervical cancer. The vaccine push has been about "savings lives." But as these documents clearly reveal, HPV is no threat to the lives of young girls.

now maybe I'm missing something, but your website seems to be misreading what the FDA is saying. Yep the FDA say MOST infctions sort themselves out and aren't associated with cervical cancer, but importantly the FDA does not say that there is NO link, as these crackpots seem to be suggesting.

This is only one example of the semantic word play that goes on out there in the world of keeping it natural.

The sad thing for me is that I also think that a lot of "alternative" type therapies can work very well. I've seen excellent results with manuka honey based woundcare products, and have read peer reviewed studies backing up what I see, same with products based on silver. Witchhazel has been shown to be great as a skin care product. I could go on........but when people like you crack out ****e like this your actually discrediting the whole arena.

Sheesh..........this place is getting worse than the religious forums on here....

samson09

Look, believe what you want, I'm not here to spoonfeed people. As I said this could go round and round and round, I'll still think the same and so will most people here. However I will add the following:

The FDA is nothing but a bunch of criminals. Even their own scientists are revolting against them due to the scale of corruption being witnessed at the moment.

"Instead I will continue to provide myself with the proper foods and supplements such as Echinacea and zinc to keep my immune system function at an optimal level".

Show me the data which demonstrates that these work to prevent viral infections. Large scale randomised trials or nothing.

Do you honestly think that a pharmaceutical company is going to fund these types of trials? Do you have any idea of how much money is involved? A company will never fund research on any natural substance because they cant put a patent on it and make money. Are you really that naive?


In years to come, the medical community will look back with embarassment and disgust at the way certain elements of medicine are being carried out today.

Vaccines are only the tip of the iceberg.

Dr Galen

so your not even open to debate? To arguing your case? Your basically saying that your not for changing your mind, no matter what's put in front of you?

Most of the people your arguing against here are rational people, who believe in the principle of scientific method and research. If you can provide the evidence, I'd wager that most of us would be convinced to change our views, why is it that people like yourself can't have the same open-mindedness?

RobFowl

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so your not even open to debate? To arguing your case? Your basically saying that your not for changing your mind, no matter what's put in front of you?

Most of the people your arguing against here are rational people, who believe in the principle of scientific method and research. If you can provide the evidence, I'd wager that most of us would be convinced to change our views, why is it that people like yourself can't have the same open-mindedness?

Totally agree Mystic Monkey. We read up on these issues/evidence/research not to reinforce our prejudices but ideally to find the best answer to a question at a given time.
Strongly held opinions that cannot be backed up with any rational evidence are next to worthless.
If you aren't prepared to change your opinion based on new evidence or research then go back to the conspiracy forums. Maybe they killed JFK to allow the vaccination programs to go ahead !!!!!!!

tallaght01

Hi Sampson,

Look, this is a biology+medicine forum.

Most people here are scientifically trained. Many, if not all, have read proper scientific evidence behind vaccination.

So, some quack website that has an agenda won't dissuade anyone.

So, you have options.

1) You can just stop posting

2) You can produce an actual link to a paper that backs up any one of your claims.

Taking option 2 is the only way to avoid having your next post on this topic deleted. The other posters are right in that you're just tacking the piss now.

But, like I said, if you can produce a paper and tell us a bit about it, then you will be more than welcome here

I would much rather engage with you than delete your posts.

nesf

If someone is going to claim they have a PhD in a subject on here they should back that up with something to be blunt.

norrie rugger

tallaght01 wrote: »

I would much rather brainwash you than delete your posts.

Fixed your post:pac:

AtomicHorror

samson09 wrote: »

Look, believe what you want, I'm not here to spoonfeed people.

The typical cry of the guy with no evidence. This is how it works: you make an unusual assertion, you back it up. Otherwise we'd be fools to believe you. We're talking about people's health and people's lives, after all. Show us the data.

Dr Galen

Are you actually really reading any of the things your pointing us to as evidence? A lot of what and your linked sites are professing as direct quotes is being taken completely out of context.

Let me explain what I mean......

Imagine I write the following:

Some people would say that samson09 is a complete fool and nutjob, going on with his crackpot ideas and theories, scaring people into not trusting medical treatments that could potentially saves lives. I would disagree and say that he is just a misguided soul, and hopefully as he has a PhD will see that the scientific studies are valid.

Now someone could come along and quote me as follows:

In a post on boards.ie Mystik Monkey said " samson09 is a complete fool and nutjob, going on with his crackpot ideas and theories, scaring people into not trusting medical treatments that could potentially saves lives." This proves that Mystik Monkey is nothing but a brainwashed fool and unwilling to open his mind

ANyone care to play spot the difference..........

Yep thats right.....


Can i ask what sort of research you performed in order to gain your PhD??

RobFowl

samson09 wrote: »

Oh, and since we are on the subject of "evidence", can someone please back up their claims that naturalnews.com is a quack website? Pick any article, ANY article, and with the aid of solid scientific evidence in the form of peer reviewed journal entries, PROVE that they are false.

I think you'll find after several hours of trying to prove me wrong, you'll end up scratching your head when you find nothing, absolutely nothing.

This is one of a handful of sites on the internet where you can be guaranteed that B.S is not acceptable.

Prove me wrong.;)

The top article on that site at the moment ststates that shootings in alabahma and germany as well as columbine were not caused by guns but "
It's the medication, not the firearms

In seeing the news reports on these events, the ignorant masses quite predictably leaped to the conclusion that "guns are the problem." Apparently in their minds, these shootings were carried out solely by guns and have nothing whatsoever to do with the people pulling the triggers. But the truth is far more insidious: It is the psychiatric medications that are causing violent shooting sprees in America, Germany and elsewhere. "

They offer no evidence to back up this other than an opinion piece that the shooters were "so detached" it could only have been the result of "big pharma's" medications

Case closed I believe !

RobFowl

Hi again Samson
Tjhe NEJM piece you quoted is a vilid and reputable source. The piece you quote is an opinion piece offering reservations that we are rushing too quickly to introduce this vacccine, it does not state at all that it is "useless".
The basis of peer review is that people debate , compare evidence,results,interpretations and opinions .
that is why you will and should always find conflicting opinions.

taram

I have no fight with the HPV vaccine, it's probably useless for me, and would be getting smears regardless.

But, I have issues with the fact you think that every other vaccination is apparently useless! I agree that it's not risk free, or 100% effective, but it's crucial that we create herd immunity not only to save those in society who cannot be vaccinated, but the fact that these diseases are highly contagious, or transmitted stupidly easily by a respirtory route, and to top it off, could, and do kill pretty damn quickly, is a huge cause for concern when people suddenly decide not to get them. One study (Salmon DA, Haber M, Gangarosa EJ, Phillips L, Smith NJ, Chen RT (1999). "Health consquences of religious and philosophical exemptions from immunization laws: individual and societal risk of measles". JAMA 282 (1): 47–53. ) found that doubling the number of unvaccinated individuals would increase the risk of measles in vaccinated children anywhere from 5–30%. I find that hugely frightening, that I, and possibly my unborn child, could die, or be crippled forever because someone decided not to get immunised, despite my best efforts to keep myself safe.

Okay, let's pretend that the Big Bad Pharma are lying to us, then why do rates of disease corrospond with uptakes in vaccination? These corrolations are in every country in the world that vaccinate, from villages in Africa, to huge cities like London. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum have seen increases in certain diseases when the uptake of vaccinations have been reduced. It's one thing to say 'hey, I won't take Brand X of drugs, vitamin C and fresh air can help me' that's fine, it's another thing to say 'hey, I'll make my child into a vector of a possibily fatal disease, that could infect most people he comes in contact with, and if someone doesn't die, well, there's plenty of other life-long side-effects they can suffer from.' It makes sense for us as individuals and as a society in general to limit these diseases, and vaccination provides the answer.

Capt'n Midnight

taram wrote:

... found that doubling the number of unvaccinated individuals would increase the risk of measles in vaccinated children anywhere from 5–30%. I find that hugely frightening, that I, and possibly my unborn child, could die, or be crippled forever because someone decided not to get immunised, despite my best efforts to keep myself safe.

Okay, let's pretend that the Big Bad Pharma are lying to us,

The measles vaccine is only 90% effective, this rises to 99% with the booster a few years later. But if 95% of the population are vaccinated then herd immunity protects all.

North and South America are measles free already.

http://www.unicef.ie/news242.htm

Measles deaths worldwide fell by 74 per cent between 2000 and 2007, from an estimated 750 000 to 197 000. In addition, the Eastern Mediterranean region* which includes countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and the Sudan has cut measles deaths by a remarkable 90 per cent

In Ireland however, measles is still a killer every few years.
Even when it doesn't kill http://www.vhi.ie/hfiles/hf-043.jsp

Pneumonia, due to secondary bacterial infection, is a serious complication that occurs in 6 percent of children with measles.
Encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) is another rare but serious complication affecting 1 in every 1000 children. For every 10 children who develop encephalitis, one will die and up to four will have permanent brain damage.

http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/poor-vaccination-rates-derail-drive-to-stamp-out-measles-1593857.html

The target to eliminate measles in Ireland and other European countries by next year is now in serious doubt, a new study has warned.

The main problem is the failure to reach a level where 95pc of people have had two doses of the MMR vaccine, the findings in medical journal 'The Lancet' revealed yesterday.

HPV deaths are only about 250,000 per annum and the vaccine only prevents most type of the virus in most people who are vaccinated before exposure


For many diseases vaccination is a "pay it forward" deal , if enough people get vaccinated we can get rid of the disease forever and then future generations won't need to worry about the disease or the vaccine.

Won't someone please think of the grandchildren :rolleyes:


as for big pharma, if vaccines were as dangerous as people claim lawyers would clean up

DrIndy

Ok - I do not intervene as a moderator very often - but I feel i need to now.

I'm locking this thread because it is not going anywhere useful.

Samson09 - I will ban you from the forum for trolling unless ALL future posts are backed up by scientific evidence - NOT quack websites.