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Vaccines - Now my daughter won't be getting the vaccine

  • 06-03-2009 01:09PM
    #1
    JonnyMaguire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭


    http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

    So a drama is created. The government uses reverse psychology on the people. We can't afford a cancer vaccine scheme for all young females. Of course the people cry out.

    Well I won't ever willingly take any vaccine, with justification as the link will show.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Quiet Lurker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭Quiet Lurker


    I am really sorry to see that you are having huge difficulty distinguishing between fact and fiction. Fact is that millions and millions of people are saved annually by immunisations. Come with me tonight and meet the children and adults who are permanently disabled physically and mentally by TB, meningitis, measles and listen to their mothers beg you not to get caught in the trap they did. It's not worth it. James Bond sells books and films but SMERSH is not real.


  • #3
    JonnyMaguire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭JonnyMaguire


    Quiet Lurker wrote: »
    Fact is that millions and millions of people are saved annually by immunisations. Come with me tonight and meet the children and adults who are permanently disabled physically and mentally by TB, meningitis, measles and listen to their mothers beg you not to get caught in the trap they did.

    Those people to which you refer, are they living in conditions of poverty??

    I assume so, therefore tackle the cause not the effect.


  • #4
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Sorry Johhny but for naturalnews.com read quack central.

    Take anything you read there with a truckload of salt


  • #5
    Sleipnir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Those people to which you refer, are they living in conditions of poverty??

    I assume so, therefore tackle the cause not the effect.

    Er, not all of them no.

    The "cause" of the illnesses mentions is not due to poverty, it's due to an infection. Where you live does not dictate whether or not you are capable of picking up an infection.
    Are you saying that the cause of measles is living conditions?


  • #6
    Quiet Lurker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭Quiet Lurker


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Those people to which you refer, are they living in conditions of poverty??

    I assume so, therefore tackle the cause not the effect.
    Not in the slightest at all. Normal people whose children contracted meningitis, TB and measles in the community. Never will live a fully independent life again from being perfect normal toddlers. Some people want to believe quack stuff rather than see the real evidence.


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  • #7
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Poverty doesn't cause sickness, it simply helps it to spread due to poorer sanitary conditions and inability to purchase medicines and vaccines.


  • #8
    JonnyMaguire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭JonnyMaguire


    Sleipnir wrote: »
    Er, not all of them no.

    The "cause" of the illnesses mentions is not due to poverty, it's due to an infection. Where you live does not dictate whether or not you are capable of picking up an infection.
    Are you saying that the cause of measles is living conditions?

    Tell that to those in the second world war. It is the decisive factor. Improved standards of living, clean water, drainage and so on were the factors that reduced disease outbreaks since the early 20th century.

    Measles. Now explain this to me. If a virus is continually adapting, as we are told to be the case. How can a vaccine target a virus like this?

    Take the flu vaccine. It is given out every year, only to find six months later that it had no effect whatsoever on flu cases.


  • #9
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Where are you getting the idea that measles is continually adapting?

    Besides, many diseases come from a family of virii/bacteria which share similar traits and are therefore susceptible to similar types of antibodies. The most famous of these being smallpox - people were given chickenpox as a vaccine against smallpox. And it was wiped out. So even if a virus is continually adapting, for many people the normal antibodies which they may have had against the ancestor pathogen may work perfectly well against the new one.
    Take the flu vaccine. It is given out every year, only to find six months later that it had no effect whatsoever on flu cases.
    I don't think they would waste their money if they found out it was useless. You probably mean that six months later some people who had the vaccine contract a new version of the illness. That's flu for you.
    Also note that colds and flu are not the same thing. Getting the flu jab before Christmas won't protect you from getting a cold.


  • #10
    ZYX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ZYX


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »

    Take the flu vaccine. It is given out every year, only to find six months later that it had no effect whatsoever on flu cases.

    Flu vaccine works on the flu but not on colds. Most people think flu and cold are the same thing. I have never had flu in my life, neither has my wife, children or siblings. The majority of people on this site have probably never had the flu. Basic symptoms of flu are feeling like death, wishing you were dead, saying things like "I have never been so ill in my life". Flu tends to last 3-4 weeks.


  • #11
    JonnyMaguire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭JonnyMaguire


    seamus wrote: »

    I don't think they would waste their money if they found out it was useless. You probably mean that six months later some people who had the vaccine contract a new version of the illness.

    This is big government we are talking about. When did logic ever come into any decision. You remember the voting machines?

    http://www.thelocal.se/17956/20090303/

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article730576.ece

    Yes that is what I mean. So what is the point of a shot if the virus, being a living organism, adapts to beat the vaccine.


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  • #12
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    This is big government we are talking about. When did logic ever come into any decision. You remember the voting machines?
    You've kind of proven my point. You're trying to suggest that there's something sinister and intelligent behind a mask of lies, when the people who purportedly organised it are incapable of effectively putting some basic systems in place.
    Yes that is what I mean. So what is the point of a shot if the virus, being a living organism, adapts to beat the vaccine.
    Because Influenza is an exceptionally infectious and vicious illness. It has relatively high fatality rates for children, ill people and the elderly and it's contagiousness means that if left to its own devices, can spread rapidly and kill millions. Like it did back after WWI.
    By vaccinating people against the latest strain to have appeared, that risk is mitigated until another strain arises. New strains arise all the time, but people are at most risk coming into winter, which is why the flu vaccine is given out then.

    A little light reading, which also effectively details why there's a vaccine every year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza


  • #13
    JonnyMaguire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭JonnyMaguire


    seamus wrote: »

    Because Influenza is an exceptionally infectious and vicious illness. It has relatively high fatality rates for children, ill people and the elderly and it's contagiousness means that if left to its own devices, can spread rapidly and kill millions. Like it did back after WWI.
    By vaccinating people against the latest strain to have appeared, that risk is mitigated until another strain arises. New strains arise all the time, but people are at most risk coming into winter, which is why the flu vaccine is given out then.

    A little light reading, which also effectively details why there's a vaccine every year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

    Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.


  • #14
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ZYX wrote: »
    Flu vaccine works on the flu but not on colds. Most people think flu and cold are the same thing. I have never had flu in my life, neither has my wife, children or siblings. The majority of people on this site have probably never had the flu. Basic symptoms of flu are feeling like death, wishing you were dead, saying things like "I have never been so ill in my life". Flu tends to last 3-4 weeks.

    I agree with this. I have had flu once in my life. Couldn't get out of bed for 2 weeks. Glands swollen everywhere, profuse sweating, temperature through the roof. If you tell your friends "I'm dying with the flu" at work then you're not.


  • #15
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

    Well you just go back to reading entrails and chanting at the moon. Me, I'm going to the doctor if I'm sick and vaccinating my children.


  • #16
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.
    You have linked two articles:
    1. That shows that Sweden bought too much of last year's vaccine. Now it's useless. Shock, horror, that's what adaptation does.

    2. The second is 3 years old and talks about an experimental vaccine for an extremely low-incidence version of influenza.

    Basically, neither article says anything about the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.

    Did you just Google "flu vaccine useless" and post the first two links you found? Did you even read them?


  • #17
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

    So a drama is created. The government uses reverse psychology on the people. We can't afford a cancer vaccine scheme for all young females. Of course the people cry out.

    Well I won't ever willingly take any vaccine, with justification as the link will show.

    How exactly can you be sure you can trust that source? Have you looked at the case in detail? Examined the evidence for harm, benefit or conspiracy?

    Did you know that there was no possible way for the virus that was used to have ended up in a commercial vaccine? This was a mistake in pre-clinical research. The virus was to be given to ferrets and would never have been in line to enter humans regardless of the results. Not at trial stage, and certainly not on a mass vaccination scale.

    Now think about that. If as the article suggests, this was a deliberate attempt at population control then it was a totally retarded one. Far more retarded than some intern mixing up two similar-looking cryo vials. Baxter knew where those samples were headed- to an animal lab. Are they trying to control the population of bred-for-research ferrets? And Baxter knew that a breach like this would be reported widely and damage their reputation. So we're expected to believe that they risked all that to kill a cage full of ferrets.

    Although a massive blunder was made by Baxter, not one human was infected. Not one person was harmed. And the only people in harms way were vaccine researchers. The safety protocols at the next level (containment) ensured that and ensured their safety. Should Baxter get off scot-free? Hell no. They clearly need to identify and fix a problem in their viral storage system. They deserve a lot of flak over this. But conspiracy theories help nobody. In fact they result in people not taking medicines that will demonstrably help them.

    Now if you want to base your decision about your health or your kids' health on the word of a website so flaky they'd draw such ludicrous conclusions then think you need to seriously reconsider how you go about accepting information. Because it seems like you do it on the basis of authority. Rejecting that of the government and accepting that of those who pose as the rebels. It's never that simple. Search out the evidence for yourself, and leave the scare mongers on both sides to their own devices.
    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Tell that to those in the second world war. It is the decisive factor. Improved standards of living, clean water, drainage and so on were the factors that reduced disease outbreaks since the early 20th century.

    No, the decisive factor is the presence of the pathogen. That makes the pathogen the cause, poor living conditions an exacerbating factor and widespread disease the effect. You can be as filthy as you like if there are no bugs around. We can't dismiss any of the factors that lead to disease out of hand. Nor do we. Public hygiene matters, but so does a strong immune system and so does the elimination of pathogens. All three are massively interconnected. None should be ignored, including vaccination which tackles two of those factors.


  • #18
    aoibhebree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 467 ✭✭aoibhebree


    Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theories forum? :rolleyes:


  • #19
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

    Please provide the data from a large-scale randomised and placebo-controlled trial which supports that assertion.


  • #20
    ZYX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ZYX


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.
    What links. You have a link to an article about Tamiflu which is not a vaccine. Your other article is about a vaccine for bird flu.


  • #21
    darjeeling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭darjeeling


    aoibhebree wrote: »
    Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theories forum? :rolleyes:

    Yes, only the OP is banned from there on suspicion of re-registering to get round previous bans. Link.


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  • #22
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    aoibhebree wrote: »
    Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theories forum? :rolleyes:

    Hell yes. +1 for a move to the asylum.


  • #23
    John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,135 ✭✭✭✭John


    The tin foil hat does nothing!


  • #24
    Quiet Lurker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭Quiet Lurker


    JonnyMaguire wrote: »
    Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.
    Anyone who noticed the effects of the flu that hit Ireland and UK at Christmas will assure you that the people who got sick were children and young adults. In general a minority of old people got sick from the flu. This is because of the efficacy of the flu vaccine this year. This is the first time that I have seen such a definitive line of effect.

    Please stop ranting with non evidence based posts.


  • #25
    cumhachtnamara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭cumhachtnamara


    Sleipnir wrote: »
    Er, not all of them no.

    The "cause" of the illnesses mentions is not due to poverty, it's due to an infection. Where you live does not dictate whether or not you are capable of picking up an infection.

    look at all the major areas in the world where there are epidemics, all of them are third world countries. poverty is not the cause of the disease but it is the cause of the epidemics because the people are unable to afford all the fancy new vaccines that we have developed against the diseases. any vaccines that they get are ones that would not be used here under any circumstance. all the methods they have of testing for diseases are so outdated that it is impossible to even classify the strain of a particular virus. so yes, poverty does cause disease


  • #26
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    I agree that poverty causes disease. Poverty is one of the biggest causes of ill health worldwide.

    Part of the reason for that is poor tertiary hospital based care.

    But a huge part of the reason poverty is inextricably linked with disease is because the poor don't get vaccinated.

    The flu vaccine changes regularly, as different strains emerge. That's true, but there's nothing you can do about it. You can sit there and whinge about how western vaccines for the flu only work for a year, or you can get the very safe booster.

    Measles doesn't really change in terms of the important proteins that are responsible for immunity, so that's not a problem there.

    Your articles don't really give any good information one way or the other about the safety or effectiveness of vaccines in the human population. Neither does natural news.

    The large scale randomised trials do, though.

    Vaccination and good sanitation have been the two most important influences on health improvement in the last 100 years.

    You're free to make your own vaccination choices. But remember the danger that your kids will be to pregnant women and babies etc when they get measles, or rubella.

    So, if you're going to rely on non-science to make these choices, please do it responsibly.


  • #27
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 94,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Remember the MMR / autism vaccine scare ?

    Turns out all the other trials found no link. But lots of money wasted on extra reports and higher insurance costs and legal trials, maybe £15m in the UK alone. As a rough rule of thumb health / road spending is about €1m to save a life...

    The medical council in the UK is investigating the people involved in the original report.

    Maybe it had to do with £400,000 funding by lawyers, this money came from the the UK legal aid fund so some people may have had to go without free legal aid.

    3 people died here in 2,000 because they weren't vaccinated.

    There is a slight risk in having a vaccination, but unless the vast majority of the rest of the population have taken the vaccination you are at greater risk by not taking it. Also you are putting others at risk by not having a vaccination. And unless you have been vaccinated you'd be best advised not to go to counties that don't have high levels of vaccination or having any contact with people from those countries.


    A simple question to ask your doctor is if their children are vaccinated.


  • #28
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    You're free to make your own vaccination choices.

    If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

    That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


    *Yes, I appreciate the ethical problems with mandatory vaccinations; however, irresponsible people not vaccinating their children don't just hurt their children.


  • #29
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    nesf wrote: »
    If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

    That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


    *Yes, I appreciate the ethical problems with mandatory vaccinations; however, irresponsible people not vaccinating their children don't just hurt their children.

    I didn't say he SHOULD have the right. I said he DOES have the right.

    I take your point, but I do have some problems with the concept of forcibly medicating people.


  • #30
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    nesf wrote: »
    If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

    That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


    Because of the scare my childs son got the measles and then straight away got meningitis, thankfully there was no brain damage but he is completely deaf in one ear. A friend of my husbands has been left with brain damage because of meningitis, and my friends brother died of measeles.

    Yes, the indcidence of autism has gone up but mainly because of diagnositcs nowadays, not because of the MMR. How many people (I'm 41) did we have in nationail school that were "a bit slow" that now we know that were autistic.


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  • #31
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    femur61 wrote: »
    nesf wrote: »
    If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

    That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


    Because of the scare my childs son got the measles and then straight away got meningitis, thankfully there was no brain damage but he is completely deaf in one ear. A friend of my husbands has been left with brain damage because of meningitis, and my friends brother died of measeles.

    Yes, the indcidence of autism has gone up but mainly because of diagnositcs nowadays, not because of the MMR. How many people (I'm 41) did we have in nationail school that were "a bit slow" that now we know that were autistic.

    Nail on the head, I reckon. I can think of a bloke I went to at school who I'm sure was autistic, but he was just labelled as being weird and slow.

    Did your grandson have measles meningitis????????


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