Increase in number enrolling for priesthood.

gigino

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think it's so much the abuse that worries and angers people (as you get bad eggs in any organisation) but the extent that the CC went to cover it all up, putting the reputation of the church ahead of the lives of children.

It was the scale and severity of the abuse in Ireland - some of which was never reported as those in charge of the industrial schools, magdalene laundries etc had passed away, and / or the victims had moved on. That combined with the way the RCC moved the religous involved from parish to parish, or off to the third world.;). Some people are of the opinion that celibacy is part of the reason, as is is un-natural for living creatures to control their sexual urges / not reproduce. At least the like of Bishop Casey and Fr. Cleary, who took pride of place each side of the Pope in Galway in '79, done it with adults....but they still tried to keep it quiet / cover it up for as long as possible.

cossi

i read recently about a 18 year old seminarian who entered the seminary recently at the age of 18 straight after his leavng cert.this lad deserves some credit i think.it also said the youngest serving priest in any irish diocese is 29.

gigino

geuro wrote: »

The reaction from religious organisations in this country has been appalling. The hypocrisy of a group of people preaching morality and right and wrong, while at the same time sinking to depths of dispicable moral depravity is sickening. I know there are bad eggs and good eggs, but the amount of rot is astounding.

So, when I hear that the numbers are on the rise for Maynooth, the very first thing I think is "What are the steps being taken to make sure this doesn't happen", "What sort of effort is put into the analysis of what has happened in the church", "does the institution at Maynooth treat the topic of abuse as a really important issue", "Are we introducing a new wave of perverts and paedophiles into trusted positions in our society".

The numbers and the wave will never be as big as before.
Quote from http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/irelands-sons-turn-their-backs-on-the-priesthood-2063257.html

"The biggest problem the church faces is the lack of new recruits to replace older priests that die or retire. The average age for a priest in Ireland in currently 63 whilst clergymen over the age of 70 currently outnumber those under 40 by ten to one.
The true extent of the crisis was laid bare in 2008 when the Irish church admitted that 160 priests had died that year with only nine new ordinations.
Figures for nuns were even more dramatic, with the deaths of 228 nuns and only two taking final vows for service in religious life."

gimmebroadband

The Church began with just 12, and it will flourish again even with fewer numbers. The CC throughout it's entire 2000 year history has had to overcome several crises'! Jesus is head of the Church and He will not let it go into oblivion - He said that Hell itself will not prevail against it!

Asry

Festus wrote: »

because it is allowed to.

Sigh. Boring.

We should just have a thread where people can rant about sex abuse.

gimmebroadband

Asry wrote: »

Sigh. Boring.

We should just have a thread where people can rant about sex abuse.

We do!

It get's really boring when threads are hi-jacked in order to constantly bring up sex abuse, instead of discussing the topic at hand! :rolleyes:

cossi

we should stop talking about the sex abuse.these lads that are joining the seminary deserve some credit not all bad remarks.i think a priest has quet a good quality of life actually.

Festus

gimmebroadband wrote: »

We do!

It get's really boring when threads are hi-jacked in order to constantly bring up sex abuse, instead of discussing the topic at hand! :rolleyes:

Those who bring it up are clearly either obsessed or possibly still in some closet.

Penn

Festus wrote: »

Those who bring it up are clearly either obsessed or possibly still in some closet.

Hey! Nobody here is from Narnia! That remark was totally uncalled for.

Morbert

gimmebroadband wrote: »

We do!

It get's really boring when threads are hi-jacked in order to constantly bring up sex abuse, instead of discussing the topic at hand! :rolleyes:

While I am not in favour of arbitrarily bringing it up, it does have some relevance in a thread about priesthood enrolment.

Asry

Yay! Other complainers!

Why would they be in a closet....? Paedos are all gay, are they? There's a thread for that too.

And, no, I would argue sex abuse talk is really not all that relevant in this thread.

gimmebroadband

Morbert wrote: »

While I am not in favour of arbitrarily bringing it up, it does have some relevance in a thread about priesthood enrolment.

No it doesn't, sex abuse was NOT done in the name of religion or the Church - it was done by sick people!

Morbert

Asry wrote: »

And, no, I would argue sex abuse talk is really not all that relevant in this thread.

It would be naive to think the child abuse scandal has had no impact on the number of priests enrolling. It is very relevant.

Morbert

gimmebroadband wrote: »

No it doesn't, sex abuse was NOT done in the name of religion or the Church - it was done by sick people!

The thread is not about what has or has not been done in the Church's name. It is about trends in the number enrolling for priesthood.

Asry

Morbert wrote: »

The thread is not about what has or has not been done in the Church's name. It is about trends in the number enrolling for priesthood.

It's not though....? It's just about how there's a few more chaps enrolling, which is always nice to see, and how the economic downturn mostly likely has nothing to do it with. Not really about trends in general.

Not to be pedantic. That too is tedious.

Festus

Barrington wrote: »

Hey! Nobody here is from Narnia! That remark was totally uncalled for.

I love the irony. Doesn't GTA glamorise sex abuse in its third outing?

Penn

No.

If you're referring to the scandal where you can have sex with a prostitute, then kill her and get the money back, then no. GTA does not glamourise that, as it isn't part of the game. It's something the player chooses to do, not what they are made to do to progress in the game. It is the acctions of the player, not the game. Not to mention that the sex with the prostitute is consensual, not sexual abuse.

So equating sex abuse in a computer game where it isn't a requirement for the game, but merely the actions of the player, is as close as an analysis of priests abusing children, but it not being part of the church, as you can get.

My original point wasn't ironic. Yours however, is.

Morbert

I never thought I'd be defending the moral content of GTA but..

Festus wrote: »

I love the irony. Doesn't GTA glamorise sex abuse in its third outing?

It glamorises sex (consensual sex with a prostitute) and violence (you can beat everyone up, including prostitutes), but not sexual abuse (you can't sexually assault anyone).

Morbert

Barrington wrote: »

No.

If you're referring to the scandal where you can have sex with a prostitute, then kill her and get the money back, then no. GTA does not glamourise that, as it isn't part of the game. It's something the player chooses to do, not what they are made to do to progress in the game. It is the acctions of the player, not the game.

Well as an aside, the game rewards the player with free health if they do this. I don't think it can be argued that GTA doesn't glamorise that kind of violence.

ISAW

geuro wrote: »

I am someone who was raised catholic, made my confirmation etc, but has since become disinterested in the church. I don't think I will ever go back to it and I don't really care.

Well if you don't care whay are you telling us?

I would prefer not to have my child baptized in a church, which is a pity because my parents would be quite traditional in that regard.

So where then? In a river or lake or the Sea?

Though I never really had a catholic faith,

You are saying you were never really a catholic and have no interest in christianity. then after saying you have opted out of being involved you want those who opt in to do what you want?

the recent Ryan report and the issues with institutional abuse have been the triggers that have made me really turn my back and shut the door on the church.

Nothing to do with the thread topic.

So, when I hear that the numbers are on the rise for Maynooth, the very first thing I think is "What are the steps being taken to make sure this doesn't happen", "What sort of effort is put into the analysis of what has happened in the church", "does the institution at Maynooth treat the topic of abuse as a really important issue", "Are we introducing a new wave of perverts and paedophiles into trusted positions in our society".

1. The numbers were a tiny percentage of child sex offenders ~ about 1 per cent of offenders were priests.

2. Since you opted out you may not be aware of the changes that have happened ( see below)

geuro wrote: »

... I just hope that the church is properly focused on the prevention of abuse in the future

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...STOP taking new applicants until such time as the fears of people like the poster above are dealt with.
... I hope someone more in the know finds this thread and informs us exactly what, if anything, has been changed in the churches procedures in enrollment, training, and working protocols.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...
Alas it seems, and I include myself in this, that we are all sitting here saying we hope it is being fixed, or it could be being fixed, or we pray it is being fixed.

I will make a point of writing to the Maynooth college and my local parish to find out exactly IF and HOW it is being fixed.

It has struck me reading this thread that we owe it to ourselves to find out, rather than just push it aside and hope someone else is dealing with it.

...
I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations. However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one to the other.

since the third century or so ther have been official condeminations of child sex abuse by the Church.
Parishes have introduced "Child Protection Policies"
Hundreds of millions in compensation has been paid out.
The current expected Bill is over a billion.

Several reports highlight where systems failures occurred and that is why Child Protection Policies (CPP) and other responses have already been made

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is an entirely valid way of putting it. At the same time however if children were abused in a school the first thing that the school would be called on to do is put in procedures and protections to ensure it does not re-occur.

The Church is ahead of the state on CPP.

If an injury happens in the workplace the first thing the unions do is demand procedural and environmental changes to ensure the same injury can not happen again.

CPP and other responses already in place. Go to nay parich web site and read them.

I randomly picked this from the Dublin diocese website

http://www.ballinteer.dublindiocese.ie/cpp-0309-notice.htm

But pick any parish from the list here http://www.dublindiocese.ie/

[
I address my comment mainly at ireland, but it is just as valid as the two examples above. More so given that this was relatively widespread and systematic compared to either of my examples. Given what has happened, I want to hear the church say how they felt it happened, how it was allowed to continue and what steps are being taken to ensure it does not happen again.

See above comments on CPP's applied to all of Dublin and no doubt all other Diocese.

geuro wrote: »

People may have been saying that for years, including priests (Brian D'Arcy for example). What reform took place?

CPP's among other things.

I work in an organisation where we constantly try to maintain high standards. If something goes wrong, or a major problem is uncovered, we actively focus on this problem. We brainstorm and come up with solutions for it's resolution. It receives our full attention, and the root cause of the issue is identified and fixed. We don't mumble an apology and take on another bunch of recruits and train them using the old manual.

Nor did the Church.

Biro wrote: »

But there is change. Look at your local parish, find out what alter boys and girls are joining and you'll see that the local priest is not allowed train them up unless there is at least one other adult present. It's the same with every youth club, school, etc, there needs to be more than one adult present.
That's the way it should be, it's equal across the board. You can't really expect a questionaire to be handed out to any new priest, teacher or youth club leader recruit to test if they're a pediophile, it would do no good. The best you can do is check the sex offenders list, and always have childern supervised by more than one adult.
How many people are as vigilant when letting their kids sleep over in their friends houses?

Good points. In fact we know clerics account for about one per cent of abusers. Most abusers are known to the victim and are family members or close friends and not clergy.

gigino wrote: »

but still the statistics show that 5.8% of all boys who were sexually abused were abused by Priests / religous.

Actually no they don't! Where did you get those stats?
You just made that up. You took the proportion of Priests per Catholic in the country and
just made up the 5.8 per cent of abusers are priests.
Please stop lying about the stats when you have been shown the correction.

Also sexual abuse by the one percent of people who offend and are clergy seems to be more weighted in favour of boys than girls.

That's just sexual abuse ; physical abuse percentages are probably higher as many boys got beatings in classrooms, industrial schools etc.

And you are probably also totally wrong about that since I would argue physical abuse was also done more by non clergy. But suppose you produce your stats first?

Morbert wrote: »

The thread is not about what has or has not been done in the Church's name. It is about trends in the number enrolling for priesthood.

Someone with some sense eventually

nozzferrahhtoo

ISAW wrote: »

since the third century or so ther have been official condeminations of child sex abuse by the Church.

I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again. I did not ask how long they have been tut tutting over the crimes when they do happen. Clearly given the recent revelations of abuse and rape, 100s of years of condemning sex abuse... even if this claim by you were true which i doubt (citations please?... has not exactly helped matters or prevented the cases from occurring has it?

ISAW wrote: »

Parishes have introduced "Child Protection Policies"

Such as? How are they being implemented? What exactly are they? How are they being policed? How are they being prosecuted or implemented when a case does occur?

I am afraid writing a post where you say "CPP" over and over and over again does not suddenly make it all ok. All I asked in my post above... was what exactly the policies are and how are they being worked. Specifics is what I want, not abbreviations.

My posts that you decided now to reply to were in 2009. I DID as I said at the time write to maynooth college and some parishes asking these questions and trying to verify the claims of the user Biro too for example. Despite being very clear, concise and polite I invite you to guess of the 30+ letters I sent out how many replies I received. Go on, give a guess. It is not a hard one to predict. I will give you a clue. It is considered one of the most important numbers in mathematics.

ISAW wrote: »

Hundreds of millions in compensation has been paid out. The current expected Bill is over a billion.

Relevance? Once again: I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again. I asked nothing to do with reparations for the ones that already happened. If you wanted, for example, to prevent prostitution you would not do it by pointing out people have to pay for prostitutes.

lmaopml

Barrington wrote: »

No.

If you're referring to the scandal where you can have sex with a prostitute, then kill her and get the money back, then no. GTA does not glamourise that, as it isn't part of the game. It's something the player chooses to do, not what they are made to do to progress in the game. It is the acctions of the player, not the game. Not to mention that the sex with the prostitute is consensual, not sexual abuse.

What is GTA? Is it Grand Theft Auto?

..prostitutes and killing for extra health eh?

God be with the days when Tomb Raider, and Fifa were cool, shooting monsters, raiding tombs, solving puzzles, playing championships etc.

This is the oddest thread. Is there something in the water?

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again.

I think yo will find several references to CPP's. You know policies for the protection of children

Hence the CPP which I have referred to and which is in ever parish!

I did not ask how long they have been tut tutting over the crimes when they do happen. Clearly given the recent revelations of abuse and rape, 100s of years of condemning sex abuse... even if this claim by you were true which i doubt (citations please?... has not exactly helped matters or prevented the cases from occurring has it?

Actually in ancient times it probably has since the Byzentine church was State Law:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65509576&postcount=862
Child sexual abuse: historical cases in the Byzantine Empire (324-1453 A.D.)
John Lascaratos and Effie Poulakou-Rebelakou
a Department of the History of Medicine, Medical School, National Athens
University and International Hippocratic Foundation of Kos., Athens, Greece
b International Hippocratic Foundation of Kos., Athens, Greece

Conclusion: The research of original Byzantine literature disclosed many
instances of child sexual abuse in all social classes even in the mediaeval
Byzantine society which was characterized by strict legal and religious
prohibitions.


Reid, Charles J., "The Rights of Children in Medieval Canon Law" (2007). U
of St. Thomas Legal Studies Research Paper No. 07-34

Kuefler, Mathew
Love, Marriage, and Family in the Middle Ages: A Reader, and: Love, Sex and
Marriage in the Middle Ages: A Sourcebook (review)
The Catholic Historical Review - Volume 90, Number 4, October 2004, pp.
743-746

The Canon Law On the Formation of Marriage and Social Practice in the Later
Middle...
Donahue Journal of Family History.1983; 8: 144-158

Such as? How are they being implemented? What exactly are they? How are they being policed? How are they being prosecuted or implemented when a case does occur?

It is for the Gardaí and DPP and not the Church to prosecute crime. You have already been shown the implementation.

I am afraid writing a post where you say "CPP" over and over and over again does not suddenly make it all ok.

It answers the question as to what POLICIES for CHILD PROTECTION exist.
You asked what laws have been changed and what policies have changed and what systems have changed. the CPP will show you the systems and policies in the Church. the law and prosecution is for non Church people to deal with.

All I asked in my post above... was what exactly the policies are and how are they being worked. Specifics is what I want, not abbreviations.

And all you need do is go to any Parish and read their CPP! Specific ther is one for each Parish! Most are online. read them!
If you want to know how a particular implementation is going go and ask at that parish.

My posts that you decided now to reply to were in 2009.

I tend to read whole threads and be thorough in the replies. If you are not interested in my reply then don't blame me for that. I have mentioned CPPs and other elements elsewhere.

I DID as I said at the time write to maynooth college and some parishes asking these questions and trying to verify the claims of the user Biro too for example.

And did they have a CPP in place then . Probably not. Have they one in place now? No doubt they do. Why not find out how it is going and how things changed?

Despite being very clear, concise and polite I invite you to guess of the 30+ letters I sent out how many replies I received. Go on, give a guess. It is not a hard one to predict. I will give you a clue. It is considered one of the most important numbers in mathematics.

You sent 30 letters to 30 different parishes on their child protection policy and they diodnt even acknowledge receipt? Can you name the 30 parishes and I will post l them and see if
if I get replies and if they have policies?

Relevance? Once again: I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again.

Which is whaty they are c alled child Protection Policies But apparently the fact that I keep referring to CPPs is somehow not relevant to your enquiry into policies on child protection?

I asked nothing to do with reparations for the ones that already happened.

I was replying to your words [bold and comments added by me]

I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations.[ However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one b]reparations[/bto the other.[policy implementation]

Got it?

nozzferrahhtoo

ISAW wrote: »

I think yo will find several references to CPP's.

You can think I will all you like. I havent. As I said I have not been written back to either telling me what they are.

So you can not actually tell me what they are or anything I asked about them. No surprise there. At all. As I said, just saying “CPP” over and over doesn’t mean they exist, work, are being implemented... or in any way enforced.

All you seem to be able to offer is to repeat over and over they they are there. You are entirely unable (or unwilling) to tell me anything more. I wonder why. Again financial reparations are nothing to do with what I am asking. I already said, and you quoted me, that I have heard of financial reparations. I see no function in telling me about them again.

lmaopml

Here's an example I googled for you Nozferrahhtoo...

It's 2005, but there are links there in every diocese too when you Google.

http://www.catholicbishops.ie/special_features/ourchildrenourchurch/ourchildrenourchurch.pdf

It's a pdf file so you will need Adobe.

nozzferrahhtoo

And can we show that anything in this document is actually being implemented in any way and enforced? That is the main crux of my question here. Also does it worry you at all that such a large % of the document you just linked to is not about prevention of cases or protection of children, but how to deal with the cases and accusations when they come to light? It appears only 16 pages, chapters 3 to 5, are really relevant to what I am asking.

lmaopml

Well, I'm a mum of two, involved in the parents council in my little ones school, and also a Catholic involved in our Church and various charities etc.

You might ask other Parents if you don't believe me who are Catholic too?

I can assure you that hell would freeze over before I would put my little ones in danger - but you don't have to believe me.

nozzferrahhtoo

No, I dont tend to go for personal anecdote, especially from people in a hostile position. After all, how many of the parents of abused children do you think would not ALSO write "hell would freeze over before I would put my little ones in danger" just as willingly as you just did? I am sure they felt just the same as you, but it did not really help the victims did it?

However your document does mention that one of their policies was to establish a National Board. Such a board exists and has a list of delegates per diocese called "Safeguarding Delegates" it seems. So I will turn to them to answer the questions I am not hearing answers from here, or directly from the parishes or Maynooth either.

The worrying part for me about your link is that not all that much of it is related to actually protecting the children, but with how to deal with accusations and cases.

The parts that ARE to do with protecting children all start with "X should happen" "Y should not happen". All obvious stuff. Whether it is actually being implemented, enforced, policied and tested is wholly absent from the document. It is just a document of recommendations.

lmaopml

That's ok.

I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

Edit: bty, there is more information locally if you use google, and contacts etc. for you to contact.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

You can think I will all you like. I havent. As I said I have not been written back to either telling me what they are.

I have supplied a link to every parish in the entire Dublin diocese listing all parishes. To my knowledge almost all have a web page and the CPP is linked on their home page. You need only look to download the entire suite of disparate CPPs. Every parish has one.

again at random I picked a parish
http://www.stpatrickslucan.ie/content/view/120/272/

I doubt you will find a parish without a CPP online

So you can not actually tell me what they are or anything I asked about them. No surprise there. At all.

You seem to have comprehension problems. I gave you a link to all of them!

As I said, just saying “CPP” over and over doesn’t mean they exist, work, are being implemented... or in any way enforced.

Each one is different and each Parish is responsible for that.
But you can easily read any one and contact that parish on whatever element you want to find out about.

All you seem to be able to offer is to repeat over and over they they are there.

Yes they are and you can go and read them.

You are entirely unable (or unwilling) to tell me anything more. I wonder why.

LOL! You ask for them and you are shown where you can find different documents for each of the following:

> Rolestown / Garristown / The Naul
> Rathfarnham / Churchtown / Ballyroan
> Inchicore / Bluebell
> Dundrum / Ballinteer / Meadowbrook
> Crumlin / Mourne Road / Clogher Road
> Blakestown / Hartstown / Huntstown / Mountview
> Clontarf (St John's and St Anthony's) / Dollymount
> Cabra / Cabra Wes t/ Phisboro
> Lucan / Esker / Dodsboro / Adamstown

All the above Deanaries and clusters contain several Parishes. Each has a CPP. Each CPP is related to the ramifications for that Parish e.g demographics/ activities/ facilities etc.

If you are interested in a particular parish then go and read their policy. There is no need to try to suggest I have something to hide. You need not wonder why I dont't read hundreds of CPP's and how each is being implemented. I don't read how all schools are implementing Whole School Assessment either but I am aware they have such policies.

Again financial reparations are nothing to do with what I am asking. I already said, and you quoted me, that I have heard of financial reparations. I see no function in telling me about them again.

I already showed you why I mentioned it. I see no necessity to tell you why again.