Increase in number enrolling for priesthood.

nozzferrahhtoo

ISAW wrote: »

since the third century or so ther have been official condeminations of child sex abuse by the Church.

I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again. I did not ask how long they have been tut tutting over the crimes when they do happen. Clearly given the recent revelations of abuse and rape, 100s of years of condemning sex abuse... even if this claim by you were true which i doubt (citations please?... has not exactly helped matters or prevented the cases from occurring has it?

ISAW wrote: »

Parishes have introduced "Child Protection Policies"

Such as? How are they being implemented? What exactly are they? How are they being policed? How are they being prosecuted or implemented when a case does occur?

I am afraid writing a post where you say "CPP" over and over and over again does not suddenly make it all ok. All I asked in my post above... was what exactly the policies are and how are they being worked. Specifics is what I want, not abbreviations.

My posts that you decided now to reply to were in 2009. I DID as I said at the time write to maynooth college and some parishes asking these questions and trying to verify the claims of the user Biro too for example. Despite being very clear, concise and polite I invite you to guess of the 30+ letters I sent out how many replies I received. Go on, give a guess. It is not a hard one to predict. I will give you a clue. It is considered one of the most important numbers in mathematics.

ISAW wrote: »

Hundreds of millions in compensation has been paid out. The current expected Bill is over a billion.

Relevance? Once again: I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again. I asked nothing to do with reparations for the ones that already happened. If you wanted, for example, to prevent prostitution you would not do it by pointing out people have to pay for prostitutes.

lmaopml

Barrington wrote: »

No.

If you're referring to the scandal where you can have sex with a prostitute, then kill her and get the money back, then no. GTA does not glamourise that, as it isn't part of the game. It's something the player chooses to do, not what they are made to do to progress in the game. It is the acctions of the player, not the game. Not to mention that the sex with the prostitute is consensual, not sexual abuse.

What is GTA? Is it Grand Theft Auto?

..prostitutes and killing for extra health eh?

God be with the days when Tomb Raider, and Fifa were cool, shooting monsters, raiding tombs, solving puzzles, playing championships etc.

This is the oddest thread. Is there something in the water?

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again.

I think yo will find several references to CPP's. You know policies for the protection of children

Hence the CPP which I have referred to and which is in ever parish!

I did not ask how long they have been tut tutting over the crimes when they do happen. Clearly given the recent revelations of abuse and rape, 100s of years of condemning sex abuse... even if this claim by you were true which i doubt (citations please?... has not exactly helped matters or prevented the cases from occurring has it?

Actually in ancient times it probably has since the Byzentine church was State Law:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65509576&postcount=862
Child sexual abuse: historical cases in the Byzantine Empire (324-1453 A.D.)
John Lascaratos and Effie Poulakou-Rebelakou
a Department of the History of Medicine, Medical School, National Athens
University and International Hippocratic Foundation of Kos., Athens, Greece
b International Hippocratic Foundation of Kos., Athens, Greece

Conclusion: The research of original Byzantine literature disclosed many
instances of child sexual abuse in all social classes even in the mediaeval
Byzantine society which was characterized by strict legal and religious
prohibitions.


Reid, Charles J., "The Rights of Children in Medieval Canon Law" (2007). U
of St. Thomas Legal Studies Research Paper No. 07-34

Kuefler, Mathew
Love, Marriage, and Family in the Middle Ages: A Reader, and: Love, Sex and
Marriage in the Middle Ages: A Sourcebook (review)
The Catholic Historical Review - Volume 90, Number 4, October 2004, pp.
743-746

The Canon Law On the Formation of Marriage and Social Practice in the Later
Middle...
Donahue Journal of Family History.1983; 8: 144-158

Such as? How are they being implemented? What exactly are they? How are they being policed? How are they being prosecuted or implemented when a case does occur?

It is for the Gardaí and DPP and not the Church to prosecute crime. You have already been shown the implementation.

I am afraid writing a post where you say "CPP" over and over and over again does not suddenly make it all ok.

It answers the question as to what POLICIES for CHILD PROTECTION exist.
You asked what laws have been changed and what policies have changed and what systems have changed. the CPP will show you the systems and policies in the Church. the law and prosecution is for non Church people to deal with.

All I asked in my post above... was what exactly the policies are and how are they being worked. Specifics is what I want, not abbreviations.

And all you need do is go to any Parish and read their CPP! Specific ther is one for each Parish! Most are online. read them!
If you want to know how a particular implementation is going go and ask at that parish.

My posts that you decided now to reply to were in 2009.

I tend to read whole threads and be thorough in the replies. If you are not interested in my reply then don't blame me for that. I have mentioned CPPs and other elements elsewhere.

I DID as I said at the time write to maynooth college and some parishes asking these questions and trying to verify the claims of the user Biro too for example.

And did they have a CPP in place then . Probably not. Have they one in place now? No doubt they do. Why not find out how it is going and how things changed?

Despite being very clear, concise and polite I invite you to guess of the 30+ letters I sent out how many replies I received. Go on, give a guess. It is not a hard one to predict. I will give you a clue. It is considered one of the most important numbers in mathematics.

You sent 30 letters to 30 different parishes on their child protection policy and they diodnt even acknowledge receipt? Can you name the 30 parishes and I will post l them and see if
if I get replies and if they have policies?

Relevance? Once again: I think you will find I asked about policies to actually prevent the crimes happening again.

Which is whaty they are c alled child Protection Policies But apparently the fact that I keep referring to CPPs is somehow not relevant to your enquiry into policies on child protection?

I asked nothing to do with reparations for the ones that already happened.

I was replying to your words [bold and comments added by me]

I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations.[ However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one b]reparations[/bto the other.[policy implementation]

Got it?

nozzferrahhtoo

ISAW wrote: »

I think yo will find several references to CPP's.

You can think I will all you like. I havent. As I said I have not been written back to either telling me what they are.

So you can not actually tell me what they are or anything I asked about them. No surprise there. At all. As I said, just saying “CPP” over and over doesn’t mean they exist, work, are being implemented... or in any way enforced.

All you seem to be able to offer is to repeat over and over they they are there. You are entirely unable (or unwilling) to tell me anything more. I wonder why. Again financial reparations are nothing to do with what I am asking. I already said, and you quoted me, that I have heard of financial reparations. I see no function in telling me about them again.

lmaopml

Here's an example I googled for you Nozferrahhtoo...

It's 2005, but there are links there in every diocese too when you Google.

http://www.catholicbishops.ie/special_features/ourchildrenourchurch/ourchildrenourchurch.pdf

It's a pdf file so you will need Adobe.

nozzferrahhtoo

And can we show that anything in this document is actually being implemented in any way and enforced? That is the main crux of my question here. Also does it worry you at all that such a large % of the document you just linked to is not about prevention of cases or protection of children, but how to deal with the cases and accusations when they come to light? It appears only 16 pages, chapters 3 to 5, are really relevant to what I am asking.

lmaopml

Well, I'm a mum of two, involved in the parents council in my little ones school, and also a Catholic involved in our Church and various charities etc.

You might ask other Parents if you don't believe me who are Catholic too?

I can assure you that hell would freeze over before I would put my little ones in danger - but you don't have to believe me.

nozzferrahhtoo

No, I dont tend to go for personal anecdote, especially from people in a hostile position. After all, how many of the parents of abused children do you think would not ALSO write "hell would freeze over before I would put my little ones in danger" just as willingly as you just did? I am sure they felt just the same as you, but it did not really help the victims did it?

However your document does mention that one of their policies was to establish a National Board. Such a board exists and has a list of delegates per diocese called "Safeguarding Delegates" it seems. So I will turn to them to answer the questions I am not hearing answers from here, or directly from the parishes or Maynooth either.

The worrying part for me about your link is that not all that much of it is related to actually protecting the children, but with how to deal with accusations and cases.

The parts that ARE to do with protecting children all start with "X should happen" "Y should not happen". All obvious stuff. Whether it is actually being implemented, enforced, policied and tested is wholly absent from the document. It is just a document of recommendations.

lmaopml

That's ok.

I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

Edit: bty, there is more information locally if you use google, and contacts etc. for you to contact.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

You can think I will all you like. I havent. As I said I have not been written back to either telling me what they are.

I have supplied a link to every parish in the entire Dublin diocese listing all parishes. To my knowledge almost all have a web page and the CPP is linked on their home page. You need only look to download the entire suite of disparate CPPs. Every parish has one.

again at random I picked a parish
http://www.stpatrickslucan.ie/content/view/120/272/

I doubt you will find a parish without a CPP online

So you can not actually tell me what they are or anything I asked about them. No surprise there. At all.

You seem to have comprehension problems. I gave you a link to all of them!

As I said, just saying “CPP” over and over doesn’t mean they exist, work, are being implemented... or in any way enforced.

Each one is different and each Parish is responsible for that.
But you can easily read any one and contact that parish on whatever element you want to find out about.

All you seem to be able to offer is to repeat over and over they they are there.

Yes they are and you can go and read them.

You are entirely unable (or unwilling) to tell me anything more. I wonder why.

LOL! You ask for them and you are shown where you can find different documents for each of the following:

> Rolestown / Garristown / The Naul
> Rathfarnham / Churchtown / Ballyroan
> Inchicore / Bluebell
> Dundrum / Ballinteer / Meadowbrook
> Crumlin / Mourne Road / Clogher Road
> Blakestown / Hartstown / Huntstown / Mountview
> Clontarf (St John's and St Anthony's) / Dollymount
> Cabra / Cabra Wes t/ Phisboro
> Lucan / Esker / Dodsboro / Adamstown

All the above Deanaries and clusters contain several Parishes. Each has a CPP. Each CPP is related to the ramifications for that Parish e.g demographics/ activities/ facilities etc.

If you are interested in a particular parish then go and read their policy. There is no need to try to suggest I have something to hide. You need not wonder why I dont't read hundreds of CPP's and how each is being implemented. I don't read how all schools are implementing Whole School Assessment either but I am aware they have such policies.

Again financial reparations are nothing to do with what I am asking. I already said, and you quoted me, that I have heard of financial reparations. I see no function in telling me about them again.

I already showed you why I mentioned it. I see no necessity to tell you why again.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

but still the statistics show that 5.8% of all boys who were sexually abused were abused by Priests / religious. Thats just sexual abuse ; physical abuse percentages are probably higher as many boys got beatings in classrooms, industrial schools etc.

You are making it all up!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056294141

you suggested

http://www.drcc.ie/about/savi.pdf ( see page 88 / 89 ),"Combining religious ministers and religious teachers they constituted the largest single category of authority figures as abusers of boys; 5.8 per cent of all boys sexually abused were abused by clergy or religious".

Try reading Chapter 2 for Methodological problems and drawbacks

The elegible respondents n = 4,367 page 56
Of these they got n = 3,120 interviews

They were asked about their experience up to the age of 17
That isn't pre pubescent!

In any case of these penetrative sex happened in about one per cent and other touching or rubbing in innappropriat ways from 6 to 10 per cent . Remember this is up to 17 years old. Page 63

contact abuse occured in 180 -200 ( male-female) cases about 12 percent of under 17 year olds Page 68

Of under 12s page 84 contradicts this with 189 male under 12s and 288 female under 12s
in both cases about 60 percent of abused under 17 year olds were under 12 when it began.

But the totals were n=308 male and n=430 female under 17

n=66 to n=71 were the numbers of people abused by an "authority figure"

of this "REligious Minister" n=6 for both male and female
I am assuming Catholic Ministers makes up half . i.e. 6 of these

That is the Page 88 table to which you referred!


So of 738 cases 6 were possibly Catholic priests and a third were not pre pubecent i.e. over 12 = 4 abusers in 738 and boys make up 308/(308+430) or about 30% of victims so say 2 of these four cases. TWO IN 738!

You then report this as 5.8% of all boys who were sexually abused were abused by Priests

Two cases in 738 and you can make pronouncements about how you are so sure of your stats???

You don't know what you are talking about. Please stop lying abut the stats.

georgieporgy

35 candidates were ordained in Rome in May in the prelature of Opus Dei. That's a 10% increase over last year's number of 32.

http://www.opusdei.ie/art.php?p=43990

nozzferrahhtoo

ISAW wrote: »

I doubt you will find a parish without a CPP online

I simply think you do not understand what it is I am asking for. I do not want to be told over and over there are documents there, or what they are called, or why they are called what they are called.

I want to know what policies are in place to ensure that such documents are being implemented, policed, enforced and so on. Simply writing a document of recommendations for your own parish and sticking them on your own website and promising to police them yourself does nothing if that document is not being adhered to and if the church as a whole, and preferably also unbiased third party bodies, are not enforcing them and ensuring they are implemented.

Anyone at all doing bad things can write a document and stick it on a website to say they will be very good in future. However as you will see I have found one such third party body (although not an independent unbiased one, their mission statement is not to protect children it seems but to ensure people in ireland trust the church again....) which may be able to give me the answers you are entirely unable to.... or at least not choose like you to give me irrelevant answers about financial reperations instead which I am not asking about.

georgieporgy

More Good News: Ordination Numbers Are Up!

Zenit reports that, according to statistics from 2009, more priests are being ordained worldwide, and there has been a noticeable decrease in the number of men leaving the priesthood. Of course, the number of priests in the United States and Europe is still declining, but the vocation boom in Africa, Asia and Latin America not only cancels out the decline – it actually leaves us with a net increase in the number of priests worldwide!
Like I always say, we have good reason to be optimistic about the “vocations crisis.” Things are (finally) looking up!




So it would seem that the present shortage of priests in Ireland is a non issue, easily solved with africans repaying their debt to us. The large influx of Anglican converts can only help the situation.

Penn

Morbert wrote: »

Well as an aside, the game rewards the player with free health if they do this. I don't think it can be argued that GTA doesn't glamorise that kind of violence.

No, the player is awarded with free health for having sex with the prostitute. It was the players who discovered that killing her afterwards means you get your money back, but that was never a requirement in the game.

The game may glamourise violence, but not sexual violence. That was something the players discovered.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I simply think you do not understand what it is I am asking for.

Hanging prepositions aside, I think you have comprehension problems.

I do not want to be told over and over there are documents there, or what they are called, or why they are called what they are called.

Then why did you ask that?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72668927&postcount=52

Such as? How are they being implemented? What exactly are they?

"They" being CPP's.

I want to know what policies are in place to ensure that such documents are being implemented, policed, enforced and so on.

AS I stated abuse of minors is a criminal offence. Enforcement and prosecution is for the DPP and Gardaí. AS regards "policy about implementing the policy," it is in the policy itself! Go and read them. You will probably find it under an "oversight and implementation" section .

Here for example is a third Parish
http://www.foxrockparish.ie/images/codebehav.pdf

All persons who have dealings with children and young people under the auspices of the parish are required to be vetted by the Gardaí. This is a formally documented process. The priests of the parish are also subject to this requirement.

And a fourth one:
http://www.cabinteelyparish.ie/child-protection-policy.html

Where even a cursory glance at the contents will give you :

5. CHILD PROTECTION PROCEDURES………………………………… 9
RECRUITMENT……………………………………………………………….. 9
SELECTION PROCESS………………………………………………………………………9
HEALTH AND SAFETY…………………………………………………………………….10
TRIPS AWAY FROM HOME……………………………………………………………….10
RECORD KEEPING…………………………………………………………………………11
INSURANCE ………………………………………………………………………………...11
DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES…………………..………………………………………. 11
ACCIDENT PROCEDURES……………………………………………………………… 12
COMPLAINTS PROCEDURE……………………………………………………………....12
HANDLING A DISCLOSURE: LISTEN – RECORD – REPORT…………..……… 12/13
PROTECTION FOR PERSONS REPORTING CHILD ABUSE…………………… ……..13
POLICY REVIEW……………………………………………………………………..…….13

Simply writing a document of recommendations for your own parish and sticking them on your own website and promising to police them yourself does nothing if that document is not being adhered to and if the church as a whole, and preferably also unbiased third party bodies, are not enforcing them and ensuring they are implemented.

Simply suggesting they are not being followed is not showing that children are being abused. You don't seem to comprehend that these are not necessarily papers but papers which require actions to be done. For example you may bring in a rule against employing a child abuser as a youth leader. You seem to think that it is a case of "well you only made a rule so what" . If you read the policy you will not that people employed in such capacity are actively vetted by Gardaí. What else can you suggest they add to that?
Even after having legal can criminal checks such people are trained and even after that the policy may require that they are never alone with children and another person is present. the point is that these stipulations are all in the CPP's. go and read them and if you have an improvement to it then contact the person in the "contacts" section and I'm sure they will accommodate your suggestion.

Anyone at all doing bad things can write a document and stick it on a website to say they will be very good in future.

Again yu fail to understand it isn't a question of writing a paper. The paper contains procedures which have to happen and are required.

you are entirely unable to.... or at least not choose like you to give me irrelevant answers about financial reperations instead which I am not asking about.

I have not avoided answering you in any way! Take that back! You raised the point about reparations and I commented on it. But I clearly answered about what CP policies are there. You point about a policy of implementing the CPP is already dealt with in the CPP.

It is a bit like saying "where is you constitution" and you are handed a copy. and then you ask "what is the rules for changing the constitution and about oversight of how the constitution is protected" and you are told it is under a section on constitutional ammendments and another section on court systems in the constitution and you need only go and read those sections.

Asking "What are you trying to hide? Why can't you show me where the constitution deals with child abuse? How do we know the courts are working and the Gardaí are doing their job?" isn't really detracting from that point. The rules are there. Go and read them. if you have a valid problem with any of them I'm sure that they can be changed.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No, I dont tend to go for personal anecdote, especially from people in a hostile position.

Based on their membership of and experience on a school council?

However your document does mention that one of their policies was to establish a National Board. Such a board exists and has a list of delegates per diocese called "Safeguarding Delegates" it seems. So I will turn to them to answer the questions I am not hearing answers from here, or directly from the parishes or Maynooth either.

You keep hinting that I have not answered your question
WHAT question have I not answered? The one about the policy of implementing policy?
It has been answered.

Furtermore suppose I don't tend to go for personal anecdote, especially from people in a hostile position. So how about telling us

1. WHAT parishes did you not get answers from?
2. WHAT direct questions did you ask those parishes?

The parts that ARE to do with protecting children all start with "X should happen" "Y should not happen". All obvious stuff. Whether it is actually being implemented, enforced, policied and tested is wholly absent from the document. It is just a document of recommendations.

Every parish had a CPP. Which CPP in which Parish are you claiming is not being implemented? Where is your evidence to support this claim?

nozzferrahhtoo

I see you want to make this personal and engage in name calling and insult. I know what I am asking. What you are answering me with is not an answer to what I am asking. Thank you for your time, but I require no more of it.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I see you want to make this personal and engage in name calling and insult. I know what I am asking. What you are answering me with is not an answer to what I am asking. Thank you for your time, but I require no more of it.

Run away if you want but that won't make your case valid.

YOU are the one who suggested I was avoiding answering.
I was NOT!

If you can't actually communicate a question don't blame others. If you don't like the answer you get because it doesn't agree with what you expected was the answer due to your personal bias then don't blame others for that either. And now when the answer is not the one you wanted you don't require it? LOL!

Care to answer some questions yourself?

1. WHAT parishes did you not get answers from?
2. WHAT direct questions did you ask those parishes?

Oh and while you are at it

3. Who did i call names or insult?

nozzferrahhtoo

I am not making a case. I am asking a question. You are not answering that question so as I said I thank you for your time. I require no more of it however. I have another line of inquiry to follow. If it somehow gives you a personal buzz to think people who find your posts irrelevant and no longer useful are "running away" then have at it. It is not going to troll me into re-engaging with content that is irrelevant to my questions.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am not making a case. I am asking a question. You are not answering that question so as I said I thank you for your time.

WHAT question do you claim am I not answering?

When you get an answer you don't like you seem to pretend you didn't get an answer at all.

Care to answer some questions yourself?

1. WHAT parishes did you not get answers from?
2. WHAT direct questions did you ask those parishes?
3. Who did i call names or insult?

I require no more of it however. I have another line of inquiry to follow.

You have been answered but I don't believe that won't stop you trying to confirm your already debunked biased theories.

If it somehow gives you a personal buzz to think people who find your posts irrelevant and no longer useful are "running away" then have at it.

HOW is my answer irrelevant ?
What question do you claim I have not answered?
That is a matter of fact.
What parishes did you ask as you claimed?
WHAT parishes did you not get answers from?
WHAT direct questions did you ask those parishes?
Who did I call names or insult as you claimed?

You are running away from answering those simple questions which totally expose your position.

It is not going to troll me into re-engaging with content that is irrelevant to my questions.

You are just simply lying now.
You accused my of insulting you.
Where did I?
You made claims about contacting Parishes.
Which ones and what did you ask them?
You asked how child protection policies are implemented . How it is assessed and how prosecutions are made. I answered all of that.

What are you claiming was not answered?
Whay are you avoiding answering such simple questions? Do you noit think it makes you look hypocritical? You claim you asked questions on child Protection which were not answered. They were answered. Are you now in denial and running away because you
don't like answer as it was not what you thought must be true?

lmaopml

Incredible.

nozzferrahhtoo

As I said I am following another line of inquiry. I am immune to trolling lines like "You have a comprehension problem" and "running away" simply is not going to work on me. I thank you for your time but I need no more of it.

nozzferrahhtoo

lmaopml wrote: »

It's a pdf file so you will need Adobe.

Well I have now read your link in full. I realized when reading it that I had read it before but I worked through it last night again.

As I said a lot of it is simply saying how things should be… not how those ends will actually be achieved. Lines in it like “Children and young people should not be permitted to work or remain in churches, parish property or schools unless there are at least two adults present” Seem obvious to you and me but the line "should" does not tell us anything about how they intend to make it so.

The whole document reads therefore as a list of suggestions and requirements. Which as I said is not the main crux of my inquiry. I want to know how it is being ensured that people are not just producing papers full of requirements to feed an angry public, but not actually doing anything about it.

Which is why reading the CPP of every parish in Ireland is not helpful to me. I want to know what is being done to enforce those CPPs. In fact I find it somewhat disturbing that it is true, and has been pointed out on this thread, that each parish has their own CPP. This tells us that nothing centralized or standardized is actually being done, and it is just being done ad hoc on a parish by parish basis.

Given the lack of answers on this thread (at least for the questions I am actually asking) I have noted that your document mentions that a “National Board for Child Protection” will be established. A quick search for this suggests that www.safeguarding.ie is that very Board.

On their website they list an A-Z of delegates and Parishes. So I spent some time last night mailing them all. Worryingly however there appears to be no professional level at all to it and most of the delegates have free email from sites like GMAIL and IOL. This hardly fills one with confidence. I mailed every other email address I found on that site too.

The same website also has their 2010 report. Worryingly they are set up by the church so they are not exactly unbiased… far from it… and in their mission statement under “Roles of the Board” they actually do not mention things I would like to hear like safe guarding children… or ensuring any CPP is actually practiced let alone enforced. It seems in fact their primary mission statement is to reinstate trust in the church, without specifying how they will go about same.

So aside from having a fun time reading various policy drafts from around the country, it seems that if I even attempt to scratch beneath the surface of any of them I find nothing of substance. The board set up to answer the kind of questions I have is in fact just another branch OF that church and as I said their primary concern is not even with children but with the status of the Church in the Minds of Irish people.

Nothing therefore is present that either answers my question nor allays my long held concerns. Hopefully some of the responses, if any, I receive from the Free Email addresses I mailed last night will go some way to doing so.

ISAW

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

As I said I am following another line of inquiry. I am immune to trolling lines like "You have a comprehension problem" and "running away" simply is not going to work on me. I thank you for your time but I need no more of it.

You have made unsupported and misleading statements.

You have stated I insulted people.
I will take hat to PM.
But as regards the thread discussion you have made claims about child abuse Policies and their implementation which are entirely in error.
the fact that you run away from the issue is only suggesting hypocracy.

HOW is my answer irrelevant ?
- Evasion noted.
What question do you claim I have not answered?
- Evasion noted.

What parishes did you ask about child protection policies as you claimed?
- Evasion noted.

WHAT parishes did you not get answers from?
- Evasion noted.

WHAT direct questions did you ask those parishes?

- Evasion noted.

Who did I call names or insult as you claimed?
- Evasion noted.

The above are not matters of your personal interest in an enquiry into anything. They are unsupported claims made by you in this discussion!

You are doing exactly what you claimed others were doing and which was shown not to be the case - avoiding answering simple questions.

Why?

I suggest you have an anti christian bias yourself and you are about protecting your anti Christian agenda and cover up your personal beliefs which are anti Church.

You are free to prove me wrong.

While you are at it you might also read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias



Ill even give you a test that will. Just answer the simple questions and add to them whether you believe in the Church or even whether you believe in God.

nozzferrahhtoo

For those who are actually interested in anything that is not trolling for a fight, here is the copy of the email I sent to all the addresses on the aforementioned board.

Dear <insert name here>,

I have followed with great interested the media explosion in recent years resulting from the coming to light of the various heinous acts towards children that have peppered our countries history for longer than any have expected.

Following the release of “Our Children, Our Church” it seems the safeguarding.ie website and board were established to assist in the creation of procedures to ensure such events are prevented as much as possible in the future.

However of greater concern to me is how or even whether such policies are being implemented, enforced and policed. How is it being ensured that we are not just producing an array of policy documents to satisfy a hungry media and an angry public.. but that these policy documents are making a difference and are being noticed and adhered to.

Since August of 2009 I have attempted to write to various parishes around Ireland, most notably those local to the areas where I myself live, have lived or currently have family and friends living. As such much of my mail went to Cork city, Sligo city, Offaly and Dublin North. I also attempted to write to various contacts in the college in Maynooth where priests are trained.

To date I have received literally no replies at all.

As a “Safeguarding Delegate” of safeguarding.ie therefore I wonder if you could answer these concerns and give me your experience and knowledge on the subject of whether anything more is actually being done other than the simple producing and printing of policy documents.

Also I am concerned at how these documents are produced at a parish level. It seems each parish that has such a document on line has produced their own version and policies. Is there no centralized standards board or authority that reviews these documents, or has produced an updated modern central Policy Document that should apply to all parishes and delegates concerned.

Finally, can you comment on any conflict of interest that might exist given that your website and board appear to have been established by the church itself. Is it enough to have someone with the history we know of to be essentially producing it's own policy documents and policing itself. How are such conflicts of interest dealt with and their effects allayed?

I look forward with much interest to your reples.
Yours,
<My Name Here>

Fanny Cradock

This thread is not about sex abuse. It's about the numbers enrolling for the priesthood.

Off topic posts will get deleted.

georgieporgy

I bet we will see an increase in seminary numbers after the Eucharistic congress next year

Fanny Cradock

I've had to delete a number of posts that ignored my warning above. If you want to talk about sexual abuse then unearth the sexual abuse mega thread.

Fanny Cradock

OK, people aren't getting this because I'm still having to delete off topic posts. If you want to talk about clerical sexual abuse then click the link above.

Fanny Cradock

ISAW wrote: »

If you are going to delete my reply to a letter why is the letter not deleted?
My reply specifically addresses CPPs in parishes as the relate to management and to the topic of Maynooth as a training place for priests and what they are taught with respect to how to run parishes.

If you delete the reply you only leave it open for the poster to say "My questions are not answered"

How parishes are managed and their policies is related to priest training and roles as managers and team workers.

You can copy nozzferrahhtoo's letter into the mega thread and reply to it there. You can then add a one line referral link to your reply here. It makes no sense to ignore my requests if you know that any thread addressing clerical sexual abuse will be deemed off topic and result in deletion. Any more messing and I start handing out infractions. I've been more then patient with you, ISAW.

ISAW

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You can copy nozzferrahhtoo's letter into the mega thread and reply to it there. You can then add a one line referral link to your reply here. It makes no sense to ignore my requests if you know that any thread addressing clerical sexual abuse will be deemed off topic and result in deletion. Any more messing and I start handing out infractions. I've been more then patient with you, ISAW.

That sounds fair but having spent a half hour replying I have no idea where the post is. How can I get a copy of the deleted post? Likewise for the statistical analysis of the report. I did read through 90 pages of they report to put my reply together . Given the other poster didn't even research his figures can I get a copy of that as well and I have no problem posting it in another thread.

I know you may have to devote time to retrieving what you deleted but I would appreciate the deleted posts as I believe they are cross referencing other posts in other threads.

UPDATE: Because of the above someone hads PMed my reply to the "letter" so I dont need it.
If there was one referring to stats and the analysis of a report ( the 5.8 per cent claim) can anyone PM it to me?

Fanny Cradock

ISAW wrote: »

That sounds fair but having spent a half hour replying I have no idea where the post is. How can I get a copy of the deleted post? Likewise for the statistical analysis of the report. I did read through 90 pages of they report to put my reply together . Given the other poster didn't even research his figures can I get a copy of that as well and I have no problem posting it in another thread.

I know you may have to devote time to retrieving what you deleted but I would appreciate the deleted posts as I believe they are cross referencing other posts in other threads.

Sure. I'll root them out later.

I would really appreciate it if people comply with the above instructions.

GarIT

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would really appreciate it if people comply with the above instructions.

My post wasn't off topic, I said I didn't like the increase in the numbers of possible priests because of the increase of paedophilia it will bring. What I was was about the number of priests enrolling therefore relevant to the topic.

Fanny Cradock

It was off topic - and you are luck I didn't infract you for ignoring the multiple warnings I have given.

People aren't going to agree with your statement and that leaves us back again on the merry-go-round talking about sexual abuse.

GarIT

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It was off topic - and you are luck I didn't infract you for ignoring the multiple warnings I have given.

People aren't going to agree with your statement and that leaves us back again on the merry-go-round talking about sexual abuse.

Alright, I suppose I'll leave you to it, I didn't really have anything else to say anyway.

ISAW

GarIT wrote: »

My post wasn't off topic, I said I didn't like the increase in the numbers of possible priests because of the increase of paedophilia it will bring. What I was was about the number of priests enrolling therefore relevant to the topic.

See my reply to this in the mega thread


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72686517&postcount=975

gigino

GarIT wrote: »

My post wasn't off topic, I said I didn't like the increase in the numbers of possible priests because of the increase of paedophilia it will bring.

Do not worry, the number of priests is decreasing, and the average age of priests is increasing.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-crisis-as-number-of-priests-to-drop-66pc-in-20-years-1294781.html

Quote "The current average age of priests is 61, which means that in the next 15 years the majority will have retired.
The situation with female religious is even more stark, with more than 100 nuns dying every year for each new sister professed. "

Society in Ireland has certainly changed a lot in Ireland in the last generation or two. People are less easily bullied / abused, and the vast majority of Catholics now reject the RCC teachings on at least some matters eg contraception.

lmaopml

That's very true gigino, it's not easy being a Priest. The average age is 61, and they work six days a week for very little, and they are on call night and day to various different parishes that are alloted - the vast majority are imo likeable sorts, and very dedicated. They're very human. Who knows what the future holds though? Perhaps an injection of young blood is on the cards - I'm optimistic.

However, I can't mind read the vast majority of Catholics - I don't possess that particular talent that you seem to have acquired.

There have always been the rules, and the bar is 'set' - most of us fall short in more ways than one, who knows a persons faith and their struggle...

I'll leave that to my maker.

gigino

lmaopml wrote: »

However, I can't mind read the vast majority of Catholics - I don't possess that particular talent that you seem to have acquired.

I can't mind read the vast majority of Catholics either ... but thank God nowadays people are less easily bullied / abused, and the vast majority of Catholics now reject the RCC teachings on at least some matters eg contraception. We will all leave it to our maker to judge us. Its hardly surprising the number of priests is decreasing, and most - like most people - are likeable sorts, as you say.

lmaopml

I feel like being a bully....me being a Catholic and all it must come natural to me...That just about sums up every Catholic..:pac:

Thank goodness I'm in decline, and all the other Catholics too..

Really...




There has been a very 'slight' increase in numbers for the Priesthood don't take it as a personal insult when the op never meant it that way in the first place, and it's not exactly a revolution either, that's just self unmasking and evident vitriol....

Not very nice really.

gigino

lmaopml wrote: »

I feel like being a bully.....

Please do'nt. There have been enough of them already.

lmaopml

Maybe when you reach 1000, you might feel the need to dismount and drink water while you carry your burden of absolute perfectness while on high up there mounted on your perfectdom - A heavy load for sure!

gigino the brave, the courageous thread dismantler on a mission, to sway every single thread and call the brave to unite..

nite

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

I can't mind read the vast majority of Catholics either ... but thank God nowadays people are less easily bullied / abused, and the vast majority of Catholics now reject the RCC teachings on at least some matters eg contraception.

In fact Catholics accept the position on condoms and AIDS for example as sensible.

What I mean is condoms don't prevent AIDS being spread. The main cause is intergenerational sex of older men with young girls. Contraceptives won't affect that exploitation which is wrong - contraceptive or none!

But you seem to be ignorant that the RCC isnt a democracy. If most people decided slavery was ok or sex with a child was and the church had a policy opposed to it then it does not change the policy just because most people want to sin.

Penn

ISAW wrote: »

What I mean is condoms don't prevent AIDS being spread. The main cause is intergenerational sex of older men with young girls. Contraceptives won't affect that exploitation which is wrong - contraceptive or none!

I'm sorry... what?

Condoms don't exactly prevent AIDS from being spread. It significantly reduces the chances of it being spread through sexual intercourse.

As for the main cause being "intergenerational sex of older men with young girls", what does that have to do with AIDS? The age or gender of both parties doesn't matter. And even if it did, condoms would still significantly reduce the chances of AIDS spreading from one party to the other.

Fanny Cradock

Folks, this thread is about member enrolling in the priesthood. It not about clerical sex abuse, AIDS or whatever else. Given that may warnings aren't' getting through this thread is on borrowed time.

Asry

so if women could be priests, say, does anyone think it really would swell the numbers of ordinations...or not?

I mean, if women could be priests, then I'd be one of the statistics in that article the OP posted up.

gimmebroadband

Asry wrote: »

so if women could be priests, say, does anyone think it really would swell the numbers of ordinations...or not?

I mean, if women could be priests, then I'd be one of the statistics in that article the OP posted up.

If it were to happen (It NEVER will in the CC), then you would be called a priestess!

(Genesis 14, 18) and (Psalm 110) refers to Jesus as “a priest forever".

You are a PRIEST forever in the order of Melchizadech

Asry

well I wouldn't necessarily be called a priestess though, would I? I mean, it's a bit sexist isn't it?

What does the final sentence in your post mean?

gimmebroadband

Asry wrote: »

well I wouldn't necessarily be called a priestess though, would I? I mean, it's a bit sexist isn't it?

What does the final sentence in your post mean?

The final sentence refers to Jesus, a Priest forever, offerning HIMSELF as a sacrifice on the Cross to the Father, while Priests offer HIM to the Father as as a sacrifice at the Mass!

It wasn't seen as sexist in the old testament!