Increase in number enrolling for priesthood.

Plowman · 26-08-2009 01:10AM #1

This post has been deleted.

toiletduck · 26-08-2009 10:49AM

Just as a matter of interest, what's the drop out rate like traditionally does anyone know? I ask because I've met a lot of men who went a few years and dropped out.

hairyheretic · 26-08-2009 10:54AM

Sounds like about half from that article.

toiletduck · 26-08-2009 10:55AM

Oops

The Big Red Button · 26-08-2009 10:57AM

toiletduck wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, what's the drop out rate like traditionally does anyone know? I ask because I've met a lot of men who went a few years and dropped out.

on average, for every 10 men who begin training, five or six are ordained.

I would estimate 40-50%

Red Alert · 26-08-2009 11:53AM

I suppose that means that they're really encouraged to think about their vocation, and some of them realize that they don't actually have a vocation - or not one to be a priest. Fair dues to them for going and putting a year or two in though!

prinz · 26-08-2009 12:03PM

The model was now a broader one of collaboration with and inclusion of lay people, he said.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

I welcome that. Not before time either.

Wonder how they allocated spots, can see a load of hopefuls drawing straws to get Rome or Valladolid

geuro · 26-08-2009 12:21PM

I don't want to offend anyone with my comment but I'll post it anyway.

I am someone who was raised catholic, made my confirmation etc, but has since become disinterested in the church. I don't think I will ever go back to it and I don't really care. I would prefer not to have my child baptized in a church, which is a pity because my parents would be quite traditional in that regard.

Though I never really had a catholic faith, the recent Ryan report and the issues with institutional abuse have been the triggers that have made me really turn my back and shut the door on the church. The reaction from religious organisations in this country has been appalling. The hypocrisy of a group of people preaching morality and right and wrong, while at the same time sinking to depths of dispicable moral depravity is sickening. I know there are bad eggs and good eggs, but the amount of rot is astounding.

So, when I hear that the numbers are on the rise for Maynooth, the very first thing I think is "What are the steps being taken to make sure this doesn't happen", "What sort of effort is put into the analysis of what has happened in the church", "does the institution at Maynooth treat the topic of abuse as a really important issue", "Are we introducing a new wave of perverts and paedophiles into trusted positions in our society".

The times article mentions that "The model was now a broader one of collaboration with and inclusion of lay people", which is encouraging.

Sorry for negative attitude when many of you posters are happy with the rise in vocations, I just thought I would share my thoughts

prinz · 26-08-2009 12:28PM

geuro wrote: »

Sorry for negative attitude when many of you posters are happy with the rise in vocations, I just thought I would share my thoughts

All valid points. However the opposite could also be true, these fellas could be following their vocation, in the light of the Ryan Report etc., in order to ensure such that things don't happen again.

geuro · 26-08-2009 12:47PM

Indeed - and it did also occur to me that this may be the case, that people feel that now, in it's hour of need in this country, they should support the church and seek to re-establish it as a modern, respectable organisation... It is the 'bad eggs' that I'm worried about - I just hope that the church is properly focused on the prevention of abuse in the future

prinz · 26-08-2009 12:50PM

geuro wrote: »

I just hope that the church is properly focused on the prevention of abuse in the future

I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't share that hope.

Fanny Cradock · 26-08-2009 12:59PM

Indeed! Let us hope and pray that some very painful lessons have been learnt well.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-08-2009 01:19PM

I read that Fr. Aidan Troy wants the church to STOP taking new applicants until such time as the fears of people like the poster above are dealt with.

I guess we can conclude from this, that he is not happy enough such steps HAVE been taken?

Rather than us all sitting here "hoping" and "praying" they have done so, I hope someone more in the know finds this thread and informs us exactly what, if anything, has been changed in the churches procedures in enrollment, training, and working protocols.

geuro · 26-08-2009 02:28PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I read that Fr. Aidan Troy wants the church to STOP taking new applicants until such time as the fears of people like the poster above are dealt with.

I guess we can conclude from this, that he is not happy enough such steps HAVE been taken?

Rather than us all sitting here "hoping" and "praying" they have done so, I hope someone more in the know finds this thread and informs us exactly what, if anything, has been changed in the churches procedures in enrollment, training, and working protocols.

Great post, exactly the way I view the issue. Hoping and praying is not enough at this stage. As Father Troy says, it is time to "halt recruitment, reform and reorganise". It is not business as usual.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-08-2009 02:35PM

Thank you for the kind reply. I agree. What worries me here are words like “Let us hope and pray”, “I just hope”, “the opposite could be true”.

Alas it seems, and I include myself in this, that we are all sitting here saying we hope it is being fixed, or it could be being fixed, or we pray it is being fixed.

I will make a point of writing to the Maynooth college and my local parish to find out exactly IF and HOW it is being fixed.

It has struck me reading this thread that we owe it to ourselves to find out, rather than just push it aside and hope someone else is dealing with it.

Maybe other on here can do the same, or anyone with inside information on what is being done (if anything) can share what they know.

I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations. However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one to the other.

prinz · 26-08-2009 02:41PM

geuro wrote: »

Great post, exactly the way I view the issue. Hoping and praying is not enough at this stage. As Father Troy says, it is time to "halt recruitment, reform and reorganise". It is not business as usual.

That's all well and good, but people have been saying that for years, including priests (Brian D'Arcy for example). What they need is people entering the priesthood in a new frame of mind, with new ideas and with a determination for change. There's no point turning away seminarians, what purpose would that possibly serve. What the Church needs, IMO, is more people, obviously following a true calling unlike many of their predecessors, joining.

prinz · 26-08-2009 02:50PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations. However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one to the other.

That's alright in light of the Irish situation, but it's important to note that in many countries the abuse etc as seen here has been found to be minimal or non existant. I don't believe the Church as a whole went wrong. Definitely many individuals went wrong, the Church to an extent and the State here went awfully wrong.

The fears of the OP, while well founded and understandable, will never be dealt with 100%. It's virtually impossible.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-08-2009 02:55PM

That is an entirely valid way of putting it. At the same time however if children were abused in a school the first thing that the school would be called on to do is put in procedures and protections to ensure it does not re-occur.

If an injury happens in the workplace the first thing the unions do is demand procedural and environmental changes to ensure the same injury can not happen again.

I address my comment mainly at ireland, but it is just as valid as the two examples above. More so given that this was relatively widespread and systematic compared to either of my examples. Given what has happened, I want to hear the church say how they felt it happened, how it was allowed to continue and what steps are being taken to ensure it does not happen again.

That it is virtually impossible to be 100% is true to say, you are right. However it is true in EVERY scenario from schools, to work places, to churches. That something may not be 100% attainable in no way invalidates the fact they have to try.

geuro · 26-08-2009 02:58PM

People may have been saying that for years, including priests (Brian D'Arcy for example). What reform took place?

Obviously people entering the priesthood in a new frame of mind, with new ideas and with a determination for change is to be welcomed by Catholics. And I hope it happens, but hope alone is not enough.

I work in an organisation where we constantly try to maintain high standards. If something goes wrong, or a major problem is uncovered, we actively focus on this problem. We brainstorm and come up with solutions for it's resolution. It receives our full attention, and the root cause of the issue is identified and fixed. We don't mumble an apology and take on another bunch of recruits and train them using the old manual.

What people need to know is how the 7 years of training has changed in response to the disgraceful revelations about the church. What ongoing practices and supports have been introduced to minimise the risk of anyone suffering abuse at the hands of the clergy in the future, etc. What specific measures have been taken to improve vigilance and communication in this regard, both within the church and between the church and third parties in the broader society.

EDIT: Sorry may have rehashed some of the post above, didn't see it till now..

prinz · 26-08-2009 03:05PM

A quick look at St Patrick's Maynooth website reveals this...

The Formation programme at Maynooth College is based on the Programme for the Formation of Priests in Irish Seminaries (2005)

Presumably that's fairly different to how seminarians were instructed in the 1930's and 40's. Obviously it should be continually updated and amended, i.e. post-Ryan Report.

Biro · 26-08-2009 03:10PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is an entirely valid way of putting it. At the same time however if children were abused in a school the first thing that the school would be called on to do is put in procedures and protections to ensure it does not re-occur.

If an injury happens in the workplace the first thing the unions do is demand procedural and environmental changes to ensure the same injury can not happen again.

I address my comment mainly at ireland, but it is just as valid as the two examples above. More so given that this was relatively widespread and systematic compared to either of my examples. Given what has happened, I want to hear the church say how they felt it happened, how it was allowed to continue and what steps are being taken to ensure it does not happen again.

That it is virtually impossible to be 100% is true to say, you are right. However it is true in EVERY scenario from schools, to work places, to churches. That something may not be 100% attainable in no way invalidates the fact they have to try.

But there is change. Look at your local parish, find out what alter boys and girls are joining and you'll see that the local priest is not allowed train them up unless there is at least one other adult present. It's the same with every youth club, school, etc, there needs to be more than one adult present.
That's the way it should be, it's equal across the board. You can't really expect a questionaire to be handed out to any new priest, teacher or youth club leader recruit to test if they're a pediophile, it would do no good. The best you can do is check the sex offenders list, and always have childern supervised by more than one adult.
How many people are as vigilant when letting their kids sleep over in their friends houses?

prinz · 26-08-2009 03:14PM

Biro wrote: »

You can't really expect a questionaire to be handed out to any new priest, teacher or youth club leader recruit to test if they're a pediophile, it would do no good.

:pac: what came to my mind was a questionnaire I had to complete going to the US a few years, such high brow questions as 1. Are you a terrorist?
2. Have you ever been a member of a terrorist organisation or engaged in terrorist activities?... started getting the sweats wondering what I should say :pac:

Biro wrote: »

How many people are as vigilant when letting their kids sleep over in their friends houses?

Especially when you consider most children abused by adults, suffer abuse by a family member or close friend of the family.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-08-2009 03:14PM

That is one policy change Biro, thank you. That is what I am asking. I want to know what has been done, what policies are changing, and have them publicise this extensively and have the polices scrutinized by the same experts who scrutinize them in any other industry with access to children.

So far I personally have not heard of any of them, nor do I know who can answer my questions. Quite literally the only thing I have heard is what you just said, and even then I just have your word for it.

Who is the public face of this? Who can I approach? Where can I get these answers? I will be starting by approaching my local churches and the colleges in Maynooth. Any other advice or knowledge is welcome.

cossi · 06-06-2011 11:13PM

does anyone on here know any seminarians in training in maynooth right now

gigino · 06-06-2011 11:26PM

prinz wrote: »

Especially when you consider most children abused by adults, suffer abuse by a family member or close friend of the family.

but still the statistics show that 5.8% of all boys who were sexually abused were abused by Priests / religous. Thats just sexual abuse ; physical abuse percentages are probably higher as many boys got beatings in classrooms, industrial schools etc.

Monty Burnz · 07-06-2011 10:02AM

I presume the economic collapse is the proximate cause of this is this sudden increase?

Asry · 07-06-2011 01:52PM

That's great

I'm glad the young lads still feel they want to do this with their lives. Fair play to them.

Also, why does every discussion of Catholicism have to come back to paedophilia? I mean, yes, ok, it happened, the Church didn't say sorry and it was a tiny number of priests who did it in all the priests there are.

I probably sound really callous but the whole clergy abuse thing is getting old.

Festus · 07-06-2011 04:40PM

Asry wrote: »

Also, why does every discussion of Catholicism have to come back to paedophilia?

because it is allowed to.

gimmebroadband · 07-06-2011 07:01PM

Festus wrote: »

because it is allowed to.

There was plenty of abuse in other denominations!

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/11/church-of-england-ignored-child-abuse.html

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6938

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/episcopalianabuse.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/crime-anglican-vicar-jailed-for-child-abuse/SbJ02DmhPWhEhzqStWjs_A

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6594439.stm

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/anglican-chruch-of-south-australia-swept-child-sex-abuse-under-carpet/story-e6frea83-1225971525957

http://www.rte.ie/tv/wouldyoubelieve/

http://www.abc.net.au/tasmania/news/200410/s1212956.htm

Monty Burnz · 07-06-2011 07:04PM

gimmebroadband wrote: »

There was plenty of abuse in other denominations!

I don't think it's so much the abuse that worries and angers people (as you get bad eggs in any organisation) but the extent that the CC went to cover it all up, putting the reputation of the church ahead of the lives of children.

gimmebroadband · 07-06-2011 07:19PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think it's so much the abuse that worries and angers people (as you get bad eggs in any organisation) but the extent that the CC went to cover it all up, putting the reputation of the church ahead of the lives of children.

If you read the links I posted, you will see there were coverups there too! Not saying it was right, those who did it no matter what christian flavour they are should face the consequences!

It gets weary when ordinary Catholics on some threads get haranged because of their faith - we don't base our faith on what clerics do!:)

Increase in number enrolling for priesthood.

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