Will you still go to mass on sunday?

wudangclan

rarnes1 wrote: »

Honest question here.

Do priests originally get a call from God which prompts them to join the priesthood?

Yes.
And the cheap bastard always reverses the charges.

Mr. Presentable

jenzz wrote: »

I am sick after reading all that today. Really doubting this faith now.

Sorry to read this.

Even after the living dead, a ceremony of canibalism, virgin births, you let a little sodomy put you off........

My name is URL

Wouldn't this be better off in Christianity?

I mean nobody on AH is gonna change there views on the church over the report so it's a moot question here really

it'll end up in another drawn out debate on religion as a whole

AnonoBoy

I don't understand this 'modern day church' thing. Do you guys honestly think that there are not priests still up there saying Mass that have abused kids?

Check the dates on the report from the Commission of Investigation that was published today:

RTE.ie wrote:

The three-volume report, covering a period of abuse from the period 1975 to 2004, was published this afternoon by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern.

2004. That's just 5 years ago. Hardly in the distant past. These f*cking criminals and the people who covered their crimes up should be held accountable in full for what they've done.

philologos

SV wrote: »

You mean those who are older than him who ridicule your religion?

I'm a non-Catholic, hence in all things I am taking an outside view when assessing Catholicism.

I respect the Catholic Church in many ways, but in the same view, I find a lot of what has happened to be disgusting. However, this has lessons for the Irish church and it doesn't mean that people should necessarily leave the church or reject God.

If people wish to leave there are many other churches, but these churches are riddled with their own flaws. The church will never be perfect because imperfect beings are involved in the church.

I believe the best place for Catholics who are angry at what has happened is to be within the church demanding change. The areas I would see that could need change most immediately is in encouraging Biblical literacy so that people can question the way their leadership are running the church with an idea of how Christianity is meant to be more frequently.

In short, I wouldn't put any further qualifiers. brummytom is far more mature in dealing with situations than a lot of other posters, irrespective of their religion. I don't know what everyone believes, hence I cannot assume them to be atheists.

My name is URL wrote: »

Wouldn't this be better off in Christianity?

Absolutely not, we've had to deal with enough of these threads in the past. Please have a bit of mercy on us :pac:

segaBOY

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I don't understand this 'modern day church' thing. Do you guys honestly think that there are not priests still up there saying Mass that have abused kids?

Check the dates on the report from the Commission of Investigation that was published today:



2004. That's just 5 years ago. Hardly in the distant past. These f*cking criminals and the people who covered their crimes up should be held accountable in full for what they've done.

Agree they should be punished.

Sure there probably are still priests knocking around saying mass who have abused kids. However not ALL priests are like this, in fact the majority are not. Reminds me of a certain Roma thread and not tarring everyone with the same brush except people seem to be getting a free run to say whatever they want here...

Borneo Fnctn

segaBOY wrote: »

Agree they should be punished.

Sure there probably are still priests knocking around saying mass who have abused kids. However not ALL priests are like this, in fact the majority are not. Reminds me of a certain Roma thread and not tarring everyone with the same brush except people seem to be getting a free run to say whatever they want here...

What about the priests who knew what was going on but kept quiet? That's an awful lot of priests.

That Catholic Church is rotten to the core.

itsallaboutheL

jackpalance wrote: »

That Catholic Church is rotten to the core.

So's this apple

jenzz

nipplenuts wrote: »

Sorry to read this.

Even after the living dead, a ceremony of canibalism, virgin births, you let a little sodomy put you off........

I think everyone should be entitled to their beliefs & entitled to doubt them.

Instant Karma

jackpalance wrote: »

What about the priests who knew what was going on but kept quiet? That's an awful lot of priests.

Catholic Church Religion is rotten to the core.

fixed that for you.

AnonoBoy

segaBOY wrote: »

Agree they should be punished.

Sure there probably are still priests knocking around saying mass who have abused kids. However not ALL priests are like this, in fact the majority are not. Reminds me of a certain Roma thread and not tarring everyone with the same brush except people seem to be getting a free run to say whatever they want here...

I didn't say ALL priests have done. But there's no denying that the higher up members of the church did know what was going on and covered it up. And these people are still there. The abuse and the cover up was happening at least until five years ago. Therefore the modern day church is in no way different to the church of the past. That's my point.

Clare Bear

Yes I'll still go. I'm disgusted by what has happened like everyone else but I still have my beliefs. It's gotten me through some tough times and I won't let anything destroy my faith.

There are some great priests out there who are just as sickened by all of this and had nothing to do with it (they weren't all covering things up) and I feel sorry for them, it's horrible that this was allowed to happen and I can't even contemplate what happened to those poor children, it makes me sick but I still believe in God and will continue to go to mass if I want to.

dvpower

brummytom wrote: »

Yes I will.

In the same way I'd visit Germany, take a tour of Parliament or look around the site of the Boston Tea Party.


Things happened in the past. Terrible, despicable, inexcusable things. But that was the past. It has no place in the present.

The church of the time should be ridiculed for what happened, but not, per se, the church of today.

I understand the majority of posters here won't agree, but it's just my opinion

The report covers sexual abuse the took place from 1975 up to 2004. Would you categorise sexual abuse that took place last Tuesday as being not 'in the present'?

Latchy

jackpalance wrote: »

That Catholic Church is rotten to the core.

It's paid out millions (or is that billions ? ) of $ in the states to victims of abuse . Rotten to the core is right

Asmodean

What makes you think Christianity involves any more "fairy tales" than your own position?

I don't really understand what you mean by this statement. I know that Christianity is more of a moral compass by virtue of story-telling and the like rather than any real facts or evidence and all I am saying is that I prefer to be in the real world of here and now rather than dedicate my life to a set of rules and beliefs that have for all intents and purposes remained unchanged in thousands of years.

humanji

dvpower wrote: »

The report covers sexual abuse the took place from 1975 up to 2004. Would you categorise sexual abuse that took place last Tuesday as being not 'in the present'?

Well technically...

wudangclan

segaBOY wrote: »

Agree they should be punished.

Sure there probably are still priests knocking around saying mass who have abused kids. However not ALL priests are like this, in fact the majority are not. Reminds me of a certain Roma thread and not tarring everyone with the same brush except people seem to be getting a free run to say whatever they want here...

I believe the figure to be 4% of priests who have been accused of fiddling with kids.Presumably there's also a percentage who abused kids but were never accused.
Then there is the bishops and archbishops who covered up the abuse.
Then there are the other priests who knew about the abuse but kept quiet about it so that prcentage keeps rising (all the way to Benedict who released the Papal Bull ordering a cover-up).
Pretty rotten ,I'd say.

philologos

jackpalance wrote: »

What about the priests who knew what was going on but kept quiet? That's an awful lot of priests.

That Catholic Church is rotten to the core.

This is something that people say, but it isn't really something that people generally follow through with. Nobody genuinely believes when they are in mass with their family or with their grandparents that their priests, and the people in that church are really rotten to the core.

A church is more than a building, or a heirarchy, a church is the people who meet there. Perhaps that is more a Reformed idea, but it is the truth.

Do you genuinely believe the church, as in the people who genuinely believe in Catholicism are rotten to the core? This includes any parents or family members who follow it.

Instant Karma wrote: »

fixed that for you.

I find it ludicrous that people can say this. Most people in Ireland have contact with one religion and one religion alone. Assuming that all faiths and all expressions of religion are 'rotten to the core' is a logical fallacy.

Some can never account for all.

Most people in Ireland haven't even attended a Protestant church in their lives let alone entering into a synagogue or a mosque. What logical basis does this give you to call all religion rotten to the core?

Dave!

Jakass right on time !

No I won't be going to mass. Not because of the child molesting though.

JPA

Surprising amount of people saying yes and a surprising lack of abuse. I'll just wait an hour I think.

segaBOY

wudangclan wrote: »

I believe the figure to be 5% of priests who have been accused of fiddling with kids.Presumably there's also a percentage who abused kids but were never accused.
Then there is the bishops and archbishops who covered up the abuse.
Then there are the other priests who knew about the abuse but kept quiet about it so that prcentage keeps rising (all the way to Benedict who released the Papal Bull ordering a cover-up).
Pretty rotten ,I'd say.

Could you give me a breakdown of the 5% figure and a source, thanks. Accused does not mean they did it. How many people are accused of crimes and found innocent? And even if that figure is anywhere near the amount of abuse that did occur it still leaves 95% of the clergy who did nothing wrong.

I agree that a number of priests and higher up members did wrong by either abusing or covering up, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

philologos

Asmodean wrote: »

I don't really understand what you mean by this statement. I know that Christianity is more of a moral compass by virtue of story-telling and the like rather than any real facts or evidence and all I am saying is that I prefer to be in the real world of here and now rather than dedicate my life to a set of rules and beliefs that have for all intents and purposes remained unchanged in thousands of years.

There is evidence for much of what Christianity claims, from historical events, to archaeology to the existence of Jesus Christ.

There is a case to be made that Christianity refers to real life situations, just as applicable to our age, rather than the age that it is based in.

It is one thing to say that you just do not want to follow it. I can respect that to a degree. It is another thing to say that it is profoundly false, or refer to the beliefs of others as being 'fairy tales' surely?

You refer to Christianity as being unchanging, it is the very nature of Christianity being unchanging. If it is true, Christianity and the Gospel that we have received because of Jesus are true forever. If it changed, I'd not be convinced on the grounds that it is clearly not true.

Clare Bear

JPA wrote: »

Surprising amount of people saying yes and a surprising lack of abuse. I'll just wait an hour I think.

Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and to live their life the way they want to live it. Just like I wouldn't judge someone for not believing in God I don't think anyone should judge people that do.

wudangclan

4% according to the John Jay report in U.S.
I don't have time to google more.
Other post amended.

ShooterSF

jenzz wrote: »

I think everyone should be entitled to their beliefs & entitled to doubt them.

You are. You're not entitled to not have your beliefs mocked if they seem illogical though. Do you think I should have the right to believe a woman's place is in the home (for example) and not have it mocked?

Mrmoe

Jakkass wrote: »

There is evidence for much of what Christianity claims, from historical events, to archaeology to the existence of Jesus Christ.

Except for the evidence that there is a god, that's a pretty big piece of evidence to be missing.

segaBOY

wudangclan wrote: »

4% according to the John Jay report in U.S.
I don't have time to google more.
Other post amended.

Thanks wudangclan.

That leaves 96% of priests who did nothing wrong.

JPA

Clare Bear wrote: »

Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and to live their life the way they want to live it. Just like I wouldn't judge someone for not believing in God I don't think anyone should judge people that do.

Ah, they deserve it though.

GLaDOS

Clare Bear wrote: »

Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and to live their life the way they want to live it. Just like I wouldn't judge someone for not believing in God I don't think anyone should judge people that do.

I judge people who believe in religion to be misguided at best. If someone does something you think is stupid you're entitled to judge, as long as you're civil about it.

Clare Bear

JPA wrote: »

Ah, they deserve it though.

:P

Ha ha ah why am I even bothering, I've said my bit and now I shall go before I get annoyed

wudangclan

segaBOY wrote: »

Thanks wudangclan.

That leaves 96% of priests who did nothing wrong.

How many of those 96% were actively involved in covering up and how many kept quiet about colleagues in their parish.?
And how many priests were never accused.?
It's quite a bit less then 96% who did nothing wrong.

ShooterSF

Clare Bear wrote: »

Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and to live their life the way they want to live it. Just like I wouldn't judge someone for not believing in God I don't think anyone should judge people that do.

So again I can have the opinion that all coloured people are beneath me (again for example)? You did say "Everyone is intitled to their own opinion"....

Borneo Fnctn

segaBOY wrote: »

That leaves 96% of priests who did nothing wrong.

I think burying your head in the sand and ignoring the rape of children is wrong.

Bob_Harris

Mass is for inferior idiots.

Why would anyone want to go?

philologos

Mrmoe wrote: »

Except for the evidence that there is a god, that's a pretty big piece of evidence to be missing.

There is no proof for the existence of God, but there are many cases to be made for His existence within philosophy in particular. Christian apologetics in the 20th century and the 21st century has particular engaged with many of the objections that many people have with the Christian faith.

It would be gratuitous to reject something blindly without hearing what the real case is for them.

ScienceNerd wrote:

I judge people who believe in religion to be misguided at best. If someone does something you think is stupid you're entitled to judge, as long as you're civil about it.

I take the same view towards atheists. I don't feel I am entitled to judge people, I do feel that I should be free to put across my point in a reasonable manner.

I try to do that here. I don't know exactly how well I fare usually :pac:

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Mass is for inferior idiots.

Why would anyone want to go?

Sounds eerily like the Third Reich.

Why are you better than people who decide to believe in Catholicism?

Asmodean

I never actually referred to it as being false though. It's common fact that the bibles some follow today have been subject to numerous rewrites over the course of history. I'm not putting down anyone that believes and I won't be stooping to name-calling or immaturity in reference to the Catholic church.

You refer to Christianity as being unchanging, it is the very nature of Christianity being unchanging

Do you mean that being unwilling to progress with modern times is a fundamental element of Christianity? I think you are right and it is that very fact that has lost the religion so many of its flock. Times change and peoples attitudes change. Unless the modern church realises this it will be reduced to nothing in time. For instance, the pope condoning the use of artificial contraception in Africa. I understand this is a point of contention for the Catholic church but it's leaders are just too stubborn to open their eyes to the real world.

In the past the church did rely on heavy-handed scare mongering ( this is purely in relation to evidence I have received from members of my family so it is MY personal opinion I am referencing from ) to elicit faith and compliance.The problem is that we are now in an age of information and expanded thinking with less restrictions on freedom of speech, this will be one of the stumbling points for Christianity.

As I said before I am not personally attacking anyone. To be honest I have more respect for people who encourage their own faith to bloom in these times as it is a more personal choice that they have decided to make and they do not simply believe because they are 'forced to comply' like past generations were.

Dave!

Jakkass wrote: »

There is evidence for much of what Christianity claims, from historical events, to archaeology to the existence of Jesus Christ.

There is a case to be made that Christianity refers to real life situations, just as applicable to our age, rather than the age that it is based in.

It is one thing to say that you just do not want to follow it. I can respect that to a degree. It is another thing to say that it is profoundly false, or refer to the beliefs of others as being 'fairy tales' surely?

You refer to Christianity as being unchanging, it is the very nature of Christianity being unchanging. If it is true, Christianity and the Gospel that we have received because of Jesus are true forever. If it changed, I'd not be convinced on the grounds that it is clearly not true.

Except...

Slavery -> Used to be okay -> No longer okay

Oops I went there, queue spiel about slavery 'back then' being nothing like slavery of recent times... Slaves were glad to be slaves... owners were only allowed beat them sometimes... blah blah blah

c0rk3r

Heres a small glimpse into the human, emotional side of things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iQGczIx6Sg

wudangclan

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Mass is for inferior idiots.

Why would anyone want to go?

You should familiarise yourself with the use of e-prime,Bob.
I think people would consider you a troll less often.

ShooterSF

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Mass is for inferior idiots.

Why would anyone want to go?

As an atheists I find this offensive and a distraction. Indoctrination and pressure from society is what gets people into religion not intelligence(or lack of). By making that claim you are effectively claiming no one can leave the church...

humanji

I'd of thought that God knowing all about it and doing nothing would be enough to have doubts about your faith.

philologos

Asmodean wrote: »

I never actually referred to it as being false though. It's common fact that the bibles some follow today have been subject to numerous rewrites over the course of history. I'm not putting down anyone that believes and I won't be stooping to name-calling or immaturity in reference to the Catholic church.

This isn't factual. If it were factual you'd be able to back it up. The New Testament is the most authentic ancient text in our existence. It is according to scholarship 99.5% the same as it was when it was first written in comparison to texts by Homer, Plato and other writers of the classics that we have in our existence.

This is the truth. The case for the New Testament in authenticity amongst many others is unparalleled.

http://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/MartinezR02.html

People make this change all the time.

Asmodean wrote: »

Do you mean that being unwilling to progress with modern times is a fundamental element of Christianity?

Christianity is based on God's plan for our lives. It isn't based on what the world thinks, as the world and the people who are in it are generally inherently corrupt.

Asmodean wrote: »

The problem is that we are now in an age of information and expanded thinking with less restrictions on freedom of speech, this will be one of the stumbling points for Christianity.

I believe in this age. It is because of this age, I can stand up and say that the case for Christianity is strong, and that I will believe in Him.

Asmodean wrote: »

As I said before I am not personally attacking anyone. To be honest I have more respect for people who encourage their own faith to bloom in these times as it is a more personal choice that they have decided to make and they do not simply believe because they are 'forced to comply' like past generations were.

I have respect for you. You have taken me out of context though. I never said that we were forced to comply. In the nature of free will, people have a choice to accept Jesus or to reject Him. That's the entire point.

Christianity is about freedom, it has been about freedom since it's very beginnings. This is why sexual abuse is profoundly unchristian and profoundly abhorrent in the light of what these people were teaching.

ShooterSF wrote: »

As an atheists I find this offensive and a distraction. Indoctrination and pressure from society is what gets people into religion not intelligence(or lack of). By making that claim you are effectively claiming no one can leave the church...

What about the case of converts? This seems to fall short. It also doesn't come into it in assessing many of the experiences that Christians have had in coming to faith.

Mossy Monk

Not been to mass in 15 years.

c0rk3r

Jesus give it a rest jackass. Youre cluttering up my window. Your belief system is outdated and irrelevent

philologos

Outdated and irrelevant = not what you want to hear?
Truth is truth irrespective of what people want to hear surely?

wudangclan

c0rk3r wrote: »

Jesus give it a rest jackass. Youre cluttering up my window. Your belief system is outdated and irrelevent

It seems to be relevant to Jakkass,if irrelevant to you.

Jakkass wrote: »

Outdated and irrelevant = not what you want to hear?
Truth is truth irrespective of what people want to hear surely?

Truth is subjective,surely?

JPA

These threads = argggghhh.

Must. Avoid.

byhookorbycrook

Yes. I'll be going. Someone one said that by a human joining a "perfect" church we make it imperfect.

philologos

wudangclan wrote: »

Truth is subjective,surely?

How can what is true be subjective?

If Jesus Christ lived and died for us, it either happened or it didn't. That's objective, what is subjective, is whether or not we believe that it happened (I.E whether we regard it as truth). The truth itself is never subjective in any case from whether you just burnt your slice of toast to whether Jesus is the Son of God.

My argument was if this is true (yes, I realise this is an assumption for the sake of argument), whether or not it is outdated is in itself (somewhat ironically given the context) irrelevant to finding out the truth.

byhookorbycrook: If the church were perfect it'd be empty :pac: all we can do is the very best we can.

ShooterSF

Jakkass wrote: »

What about the case of converts? This seems to fall short. It also doesn't come into it in assessing many of the experiences that Christians have had in coming to faith.

My bad there are always exceptions to the rule but they are by far in the minority. Indoctrination and society pressure is what leads most to their religion. That's why most (again) share the religion of their parents and society...