Removing religious influence from schools not in my remit, says Minister

Pushtrak

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Oh I dont know. Maybe something like that lad in Belfast post ceasefire who got gunned down for being Catholic as he was wearing a Celtic jersey as the hunt squad rolled through his area? Embarrasing opinion in the context of our history.

Religious or not you are an Irish Catholic by ethnicity. Having known a few hard drinking Bosnian Muslims, who arent a particularly religious lot like ourselves but are Muslim by culture, Im sure some of the Srebenica Muslims hadnt been to a mosque in years, but they were slaughtered based on religious ethnicity.

Ah, what you are referring to is the act of on seeing another to put them into whatever category/box/grouping that applies to that individual. Or prejudice. I guess my issue was a lot more to do with the idea of someone who doesn't fit into that box deciding to lump himself in because thats the preconception. But hey, thats your perogative.

A corollary would be I'd love to see how the CSO statistics would look if the "cultural catholics" actually put themselves down as atheist/agnostic or whatever religion they actually are down instead of Catholic. That'd be an interesting one, in my opinion. I'd doubt we'd get results that show Catholicism at under 50% but imagining such an outcome, would you still say we are culturally catholic because of our history or would the reality of today be enough to sway that? I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd have different answers to that question, and also many who'd find it a stupid question.

philologos

Sleepy wrote: »

Unfortunately for you, that's not the way the Catholic Church sees things. To be a catholic, one must adhere to all teachings of that religion. It's the very reason that the reformation occured and why protestant churches exist.

The Reformation happened as a reorganisation of authority within the Church and a return to Biblical Christianity from a church that had sadly become very corrupt (N.B the pre-Reformation Roman Catholic Church is a very different beast to the post-Vatican II sort). It doesn't mean that Protestants exist because they want to throw out teachings, rather they wanted to assess how accurate was it to the Biblical text.

Sleepy wrote: »

But, then again, would you care about reality and logical reasoning if you're religious? Probably not.

You know that's a poorly made argument, and I can just change the word religious to irreligious in that question? It's disingenuous anyway, people believe because they want to find out what the truth is.

rohatch

Jakkass wrote: »

You know that's a poorly made argument, and I can just change the word religious to irreligious in that question? It's disingenuous anyway, people believe because they want to find out what the truth is.

BS again. Stop posting the same arguments.

Religion and its origins has been examined in detail by both sides. All investigations show that it has no solid foundation, no actual proof of some of its most important tenets, and it just invented the other's, celibacy, purgatory, limbo, no use for women.

They are just stories handed down over thousands of years.

Religion is a delusion. It is a stupid idea for people who are afraid to be responsible for themselves as adults.

Mike 1972

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Religious or not you are an Irish Catholic by ethnicity.

Big assumption there ?

Are all Irish people "Catholic by ethnicity" Including Protestants, Jews, All other religions and (by some default process) those never baptised into any religion ?

Quint

Ah yes, Religion class in my school was funny. I went to christian brothers secondary school from 1990-1995 and our religion teacher was fantastic. Remember when he'd ask about abortion, someone might say abortion was good, it gave the woman a choice. Teacher would make him stand up, walk down to him, stand on his toe (he was a big bloke) and then try and lift him up by his ear or hair until he changed his answer. Same thing or worse would happen if you disagreed with anything he said.

Seloth

That happened in the 90's!!!


bloody hell...70's eyah...maybe even 80's but 90's!!!

Any Religion teacher I had was grand..one was a full blown metal head heh,another was on his way to be comming a priest when he got someone preggers...and msot of his class's were talked about moral thigns rather than religion.

rohatch

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Big assumption there ?

Are all Irish people "Catholic by ethnicity" Including Protestants, Jews, All other religions and (by some default process) those never baptised into any religion ?

The religious are atheist too. Jackass do you pray to Zeus?

Anyway, can we get back to my original post.

how do we get rid of these lying, preaching, deluded fools.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

bronte

Quint wrote: »

Ah yes, Religion class in my school was funny. I went to christian brothers secondary school from 1990-1995 and our religion teacher was fantastic. Remember when he'd ask about abortion, someone might say abortion was good, it gave the woman a choice. Teacher would make him stand up, walk down to him, stand on his toe (he was a big bloke) and then try and lift him up by his ear or hair until he changed his answer. Same thing or worse would happen if you disagreed with anything he said.

How fun!

Seriously though, how was this allowed to happen?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

Horrified? You do realise very few priests actually molest a child. Especially
In todays 'sexually liberated' times.

This whole paedophile priest thing is ridiculously overblown and anti-religious zealots thrive on it

Would you prefer he used the back door?

Are you fúcking shítting me? you have to be taking the píss... Overblown? You would definately meet the requirements of becomming a bishop of some sort... Wake the fúck up...

Funny how the devout still protect their own, after raping little boys for fúcking years.... scum of the earth, the lot of them...

rohatch

Anderson Plain Zephyr wrote: »

Are you fúcking shítting me? you have to be taking the píss... Overblown? You would definately meet the requirements of becomming a bishop of some sort... Wake the fúck up...

Funny how the devout still protect their own, after raping little boys for fúcking years.... scum of the earth, the lot of them...

Well said.

Plowman wrote: »

Don't know how you managed to square that circle.

DO you pray to Apollo?

Plowman wrote: »

Some of us don't consider members of the religious life to be lying, preachy, deluded or foolish. And anyway, wouldn't lying and deluded be paradoxical?

Well they are!

Quint wrote: »

Ah yes, Religion class in my school was funny. I went to christian brothers secondary school from 1990-1995 and our religion teacher was fantastic. Remember when he'd ask about abortion, someone might say abortion was good, it gave the woman a choice. Teacher would make him stand up, walk down to him, stand on his toe (he was a big bloke) and then try and lift him up by his ear or hair until he changed his answer. Same thing or worse would happen if you disagreed with anything he said.

Sounds like ours. Was his name Lloyd? Did he ever shout get out and then go off on a Misses Doyle style rant

Get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out.

A bit like our dopey ceann comhairle friend

"you will withdraw that remark" x 13)

Peppapig

You're not a man of god, you're not a man of god, you're not a man of god

dan719

bronte wrote: »

How fun!

Seriously though, how was this allowed to happen?

Don't be so dramatic. This is common enough in plenty of all boys schools. One of the best teachers I ever had was a fan of grabbing a lad by the locks and lifting him out of the chair, or lifting him up for acting the bollix. It never did anyone any harm. And in my year 27 of the 29 of us got A1s at higher level. The other two got A2s and he barely spoke to them at the debs.

Seachmall

rohatch wrote: »

The religious are atheist too. Jackass do you pray to Zeus?

DO you pray to Apollo?

Atheism, by very definition, is belief in no god, so I assume you're alluding to the Dawkins' quote,
"We are all atheists to the gods of other religions, some of us just go one god further".

I agree with what you're saying, just no how you're going about it.

Any argument for the Judeo-Christian god is applicable to any god that has ever existed, including FSM, making it a non-specific argument making it a worthless argument.

A belief in god is an emotional belief, not an intellectual decision. Trying to defend it on an intellectual level is ridiculous, particularly when you're tied to one specific (and flawed) religion. School is a place of learning, not worship. Any state funded school should not have mandatory classes that teach one religion, I know my school did even if they tried to present it as a 'religions of the world' class.

Pineapple_Boi wrote:

Horrified? You do realise very few priests actually molest a child. Especially
In todays 'sexually liberated' times.

This whole paedophile priest thing is ridiculously overblown and anti-religious zealots thrive on it

While very few priests did molest children it was the wider church's reaction that is the primary source of controversy; they hid and denied it. Instead of reporting priests they moved them to other parishes. (Many priests feared excommunication if they did report the abuses they knew about).

philologos

Anderson Plain Zephyr wrote: »

Are you fúcking shítting me? you have to be taking the píss... Overblown? You would definately meet the requirements of becomming a bishop of some sort... Wake the fúck up...

Funny how the devout still protect their own, after raping little boys for fúcking years.... scum of the earth, the lot of them...

Your anger is justified. This was absolutely wrong. I don't think it should be used for opportunism, and I don't think that the vast majority of child abuse that took place outside the church should be ignored.

If there is a God at all, He wouldn't encourage this. This isn't about belief or unbelief, it's about a terrible thing that happened. It's not even about God, Jesus, or Christianity.

It's about people who have let other people down in the worst possible way.

Seachmall

Jakkass wrote: »

If there is a God at all, He wouldn't encourage this.

Maybe he would, just throwing it out there. The assumption that a god, if there is one, would be good is hard to defend given the world he created for us.

Just something to think about.

bronte

dan719 wrote: »

Don't be so dramatic. This is common enough in plenty of all boys schools. One of the best teachers I ever had was a fan of grabbing a lad by the locks and lifting him out of the chair, or lifting him up for acting the bollix. It never did anyone any harm. And in my year 27 of the 29 of us got A1s at higher level. The other two got A2s and he barely spoke to them at the debs.

Do you believe this is the way to educate young people?

philologos

Seachmall wrote: »

The assumption that a god, if there is one, would be good is hard to defend given the world he created for us.

Just something to think about.

I'm tempted to reply to this, but I think it's best that we keep the thread somewhat on topic. Some people generally get a bit irked when I talk about God here, I mean well though

My basic point is this, I am saying is that God (and by extension Jesus), if He indeed exists, goes far beyond the human authority and the human control that so often royally screws things up.

Just a thought.

rohatch

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm tempted to reply to this, but I think it's best that we keep the thread somewhat on topic. Some people generally get a bit irked when I talk about God here, I mean well though

We know.
You are our best shot at a successful deprogramming.

Come to the dark side jackass.:)

Jakkass wrote: »

My basic point is this, I am saying is that God (and by extension Jesus), if He indeed exists, goes far beyond the human authority and the human control that so often royally screws things up.

Just a thought.

Jakkass wrote: »

If there is a God at all, He wouldn't encourage this.

If he does exist, if there is a god, Jackass you are getting closer .....

Thucydides

A recent article in the Irish Times articulates nicely the many reasons

why Ireland should have a secular state education system - regardless of

one's own individual view on God or orgainised religion.

Please have a read -


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1217/1224260833016.html


I'm always reminded of France in this regard. Their state education

system, in the true enlightenment tradition, has been officially secular

since the turn of the 20th century at the very least. Perhaps even earlier.


My personal opinion is that religion has as much right to be taught in a

school as physics or grammar does in a church - none. School should always be

a place of reason & science.


It's ironic that French people - and many others in Europe with a secular

state education system - look across at say, the UK, with it's disasterous

attempts to try to please everyone in education provision in a multi-religious society, and say,

'well, at least we didn't make that mistake'. There was a very good opinion

piece by a French journalist arguing the very same in The Times earlier

this year.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6565064.ece



The worrying thing is that it looks as if Ireland is heading down the exact

same road. We will have no one to blame but ourselves in the years to come.


The lesson that should be learned from other countries experiences - and mistakes - is

that the best way to please everyone - from those with a religion to those with none -

is to please no one. The best way to have equality, is to have neutrality

i.e. the system should be secularised.

philologos

I don't think France is the example we should look towards. It denies religious students the right to express themselves using religious symbols even if they are compulsory to the faith they are following.

dan719

bronte wrote: »

Do you believe this is the way to educate young people?

If gets everyone ninety or a hundred points, and the teams he coaches win the competitions they are involved in, then yes, I do.

bronte

dan719 wrote: »

If gets everyone ninety or a hundred points, and the teams he coaches win the competitions they are involved in, then yes, I do.

Wow, you have a strange idea of what is normal education for young people then. Being pulled about by the roots of your hair is grand as long as you achieve good results? I've heard everything now. :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dan719 wrote: »

If gets everyone ninety or a hundred points, and the teams he coaches win the competitions they are involved in, then yes, I do.

You ever think that education might just be there to serve a higher purpose than accumilating points and winning ****?

rohatch

dan719 wrote: »

If gets everyone ninety or a hundred points, and the teams he coaches win the competitions they are involved in, then yes, I do.

No way. Violence and intimidation for results is reason enough for you.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think France is the example we should look towards. It denies religious students the right to express themselves using religious symbols even if they are compulsory to the faith they are following.

Jackass religion has no place in schools.

It is ridiculous that the wearing of religious symbols is compulsory.

Another dumb illogical tenet.

Groe

I'm in third year and come from a religious enough family and I do believe in God. I go to a catholic school and attend mass most Sundays. Reading through this thread I only see the side of people who feel that religion in schools is bad and that parents are, in some cases, denying their child the right to different types of education.

In my school you do not have to participate in anything religion orientated. I feel that if any child in a religious school does not believe in the religion can just ask to be excused from any religious event.

I don't really know where I'm going with this but I just feel that people seem to make it out that religion is ruining the world and I feel that if someone strongly opposes religion then don't partake in it but din't take it away from people who do want to be religious etc. and stop trying to tell them religion is wrong....

I dunno don't want to start taking sides or anything but I feel that people are making a big deal of nothing

pljudge321

Groe wrote: »

I'm in third year and come from a religious enough family and I do believe in God. I go to a catholic school and attend mass most Sundays. Reading through this thread I only see the side of people who feel that religion in schools is bad and that parents are, in some cases, denying their child the right to different types of education.

In my school you do not have to participate in anything religion orientated. I feel that if any child in a religious school does not believe in the religion can just ask to be excused from any religious event.

I don't really know where I'm going with this but I just feel that people seem to make it out that religion is ruining the world and I feel that if someone strongly opposes religion then don't partake in it but din't take it away from people who do want to be religious etc. and stop trying to tell them religion is wrong....

I dunno don't want to start taking sides or anything but I feel that people are making a big deal of nothing

And do you think your one school is wholly representative of every other catholic run school in the country, think of the bigger picture.

Regardless of how your school is run the thought that it is legally entitled to discriminate against people whose taxes pay for its running is morally abhorrent.

Ickle Magoo

Groe wrote: »

I feel that if any child in a religious school does not believe in the religion can just ask to be excused from any religious event.

Arrrggghhhh!!!!! I'm so sick of explaining this to people.

So I could ask to get my kid excused from religious events? I guess I could. I guess if it wasn't for the fact that my kid doesn't have a baptism cert and so I was told there was little to no chance that my kid would get a place in the local school, I guess I may of had that option. Can you not see the bigger picture ffs. It's not about abolishing religious events or doing away with classes that teach religion, it's about abolishing a system that can legally discriminate against little children getting something as feckin' basic as an education at the local state funded school. Gah! :mad:

Groe

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Arrrggghhhh!!!!! I'm so sick of explaining this to people.

So I could ask to get my kid excused from religious events? I guess I could. I guess if it wasn't for the fact that my kid doesn't have a baptism cert and so I was told there was little to no chance that my kid would get a place in the local school, I guess I may of had that option. Can you not see the bigger picture ffs. It's not about abolishing religious events or doing away with classes that teach religion, it's about abolishing a system that can legally discriminate against little children getting something as feckin' basic as an education at the local state funded school. Gah! :mad:

I know what your saying but I'm just giving my opinion and talking about my experiences. I'm only 15, I haven't experienced the bigger picture. Think of it this way, everyone's giving the story about how they feel and what they've experienced with religion and I'm telling you what I'm experiencing in school.

Ickle Magoo

Thucydides wrote: »

..look across at say, the UK, with it's disasterous attempts to try to please everyone in education provision in a multi-religious society...

Well, considering the UK doesn't actually share an education system, I don't know how you can look at it & say that...