WPP1 / WPP2

clarelad

AARRRGH wrote: »

Fair enough, but be aware the people who are willing to work for experience will be in a much stronger position than you in 12 months time.

When I graduated (1999, computer science), a couple of people in my class worked for free for a couple of months to get development experience. They all earn savage money now, and I doubt any of them regret "lowering themselves" for those few months.

Life isn't easy; sometimes you have to take a bit of short term pain for long term gain. You have to remember as well that as a graduate you are near useless to an employer.

Exactly,plus theres the possibility of a full time job after it:)

BostonB

stupidusername wrote: »

...... no one should be made feel the have to take on one of these because it's the only thing they can get. Most people that say you should be snapping up the chance to take something like this are people that haven't a clue what it's like to be in this situation.....

I disagree, I think they are people that been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Working for free, to get experience is as old as the hills. Working for nothing, or pittance is how most people start out. Often without any dole too.

miec

I have to concur with stupidusername, and likewise I am in a similar boat as them, a year unemployed, graduate with X amount of work experience (as I was a mature student), also as I said in a former post, I cannot afford to do the WPP as my dole wouldn't even cover travel costs, new clothes (suits, etc) or lunch money (and these are essentials for a job).

Also can you give me a link to where you found the reference to the €500 training allowance, because I couldn't find that anywhere.

Sorry about the misinformation about dole + payment, you are right, only those on a lone parent / widows pension etc can get a payment plus their benefit. I cannot provide a link for the training allowance, but I was on this scheme years ago and I know someone who is on one now and the CE supervisor said they have a training allowance of €500 per year for each participant. I think the CE scheme is much fairer and it works as many long term unemployed people have retrained and gone onto full time employment. I was using the scheme as one that works in contrast with the WPP scheme, which to me is not working and I was espicially angry when I saw this job advert on LinkedIn
______________
Virtual Learning Environment Researcher - 9 month Work Placement - Dublin Based (Sandyford and DCU)
Work Placement Title*: Virtual Learning Environment (VLE) Researcher/Project Officer

Please note this is an unpaid work experience 9 month position through FAS. Candidates must be registered for the WPP1 Programme with their local FAS office to be eligible to apply.

More details on the programme can be found at: http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=10981_10&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=17&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM

Area of activity in which placement is offered*:
In partnership with FÁS and the NCTE, Microsoft Ireland has an opportunity for a Virtual Learning Environment Researcher to work on the development of Scoilnet as part of the Government’s Strategic direction in driving a “SMART Economy” and more specifically in relation to the objectives and recommendations set out in the report "Smart Schools = Smart Economy".

This report can be downloaded from www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet /icu_smart_schools_smart_economy.pdf

This role will assist the NCTE in its plans to carry out investigation/research regarding Virtual Learning Environments (VLEs) in order to have a more informed view as to the range of solutions available in this area.


Elements of experience offered*:
The placement will offer participants skills in:
• Research into e-Learning, content and communications systems
• Using Virtual Learning Environments
• Product Management skills
• Online Communities of Practise
• Design and Implementation of VLE’s
• VLE interoperability and management

Role will also include the following Scope and Impact:
• Gains understanding of an area of research and corresponding literature and research techniques
• Identifies components of a larger research problem under guidance of a mentor
• Conducts research under guidance and solves one or more components of a larger research problem
• Assists others in writing and presenting papers
• Understands the value of his/her research work in the context of products or business groups


Person specification*:
The candidate will be capable of working within a team environment and on a proactive and self-starting basis. S/he will be capable of working to and creating prioritised deadlines in the pursuit of the project objectives.

Candidates will have excellent writing skills and knowledge of ICT in education, ideally meeting all or some of the following requirements:

Required
 A relevant third level qualification.
 Knowledge of the use and implementation of VLEs in the school system/other systems
 Understanding of the Irish educational system at primary/post primary/ adult level
 Knowledge of ICT and its application in primary/post primary/ adult level education
 Project management experience ??????????????
 Excellent presentation, communication, facilitation and interpersonal skills

Desirable
 Experience in the working with one of more VLEs is desirable
 Experience in teaching or providing adult education is desirable for this position


In addition the following Microsoft Competencies will be required

• Project Management
• Passionate Communication
• Technical Excellence

Please send FAS WPP1 approved applications to msfasjob@microsoft.com
______________
:mad::mad::mad::mad:
Now please ffs don't tell me that this is fair or right. Microsoft are not struggling and I am disgusted with the blatant abuse of this system. There is working for free and then there is bending over and letting someone shaft you so much that there is no dignity remaining.

28064212

miec wrote: »

I have attached a word document Attachment not found. that lists 16 WPP1 jobs asking for experience. I chose to attach it because it would take up too much room here. All of these positions will exclude those graduates who have no work experience and furthermore, a few of the jobs are managerial.

Almost none of those jobs require experience. The only one which could be considered as outside the realms of the WPP is the Marketing Executive position which asks for an "Experienced Marketing Executive with 3rd level Degree qualification". Every one of the others is a perfectly valid WPP position. Many of them say that experience is preferable, that's hardly a surprise. If two people apply for the same position and one has 3 months experience in the same area from (for example) a work placement in college, obviously they're going to be more preferable. Also, just because a position says 'experience' doesn't necessarily mean they must have worked before. Particularly in the IT positions which ask for a skill-set such as web-design or Java, some courses or module choices may not have covered them or the graduate may not have done them in years.

As for the only valid complaint, the Marketing Executive position, the company is out of their minds if they think they will actually get an "Experienced Marketing Executive". In fact, that job has been up on the website since March 2nd.

stupidusername wrote: »

I'm a college graduate, graduated last year, have been unemployed for a year, and all that's going in my area is WPPs. There aren't many prospects at the moment, but I refuse to apply for one of these shítty positions in which you are going to be working along side people that are getting paid to do the same work as you, when you get your measly dole payment. That might sound like I consider myself above everyone else, but I don't, I just won't work 39 hours a week (in fairness it would probably be more in IT) for 196 a week. And the job that I'd be doing requires substantial training, as well as considerably tough work.

And you don't think it would be worth it to get that training out of the way instead of doing nothing on the dole?

stupidusername wrote: »

If some people want to see these positions as glimmers of hope for their own futures then that's fine, but no one should be made feel the have to take on one of these because it's the only thing they can get. Most people that say you should be snapping up the chance to take something like this are people that haven't a clue what it's like to be in this situation.

Actually, if you looked at this thread, most of the people that say you should be snapping up the chance are people who are actually on the WPP

stupidusername wrote: »

If this scheme didn't exist, in place there would be some real jobs, ya maybe much fewer positions than now but at least what would be offered would be quality positions that offer a person a decent useful job, WITH a decent wage, and possibly a more stable future.

Much, much fewer jobs, and they certainly wouldn't be going to someone a year out of college with no experience

miec wrote: »

I have to concur with stupidusername, and likewise I am in a similar boat as them, a year unemployed, graduate with X amount of work experience (as I was a mature student), also as I said in a former post, I cannot afford to do the WPP as my dole wouldn't even cover travel costs, new clothes (suits, etc) or lunch money (and these are essentials for a job).

They are essential for some jobs and for some people. Lunch money is irrelevant, you would be spending that anyway. New clothes, maybe, depending on the position, not an issue if you already have some half-decent stuff. As it's a work placement, you can get away with a lot more clothes-wise, unless you're in a client-facing position. Travel, fair enough, if you live far enough away from positions, it's just not going to be worth it. I would support Fás introducing a travel stipend as part of the programme, but it's difficult to be all things to all people.

miec wrote: »

Virtual Learning Environment Researcher - 9 month Work Placement - Dublin Based (Sandyford and DCU)
Work Placement Title*: Virtual Learning Environment (VLE) Researcher/Project Officer
...
Now please ffs don't tell me that this is fair or right. Microsoft are not struggling and I am disgusted with the blatant abuse of this system. There is working for free and then there is bending over and letting someone shaft you so much that there is no dignity remaining.

(Depending on how exactly Microsoft are involved) I see nothing wrong with this. Certainly the specifications are not overly-taxing, and I have no idea why you've bolded most of them.

• A proactive and self-starting basis - What's wrong with that? They're looking for someone who doesn't sit around waiting for work to come to them
• Knowledge of the use and implementation of VLEs in the school system/other systems - So someone who knows what a VLE is and has at least seen one. Anyone who's ever used Moodle, Fás e-College, Scoilnet, skoool.ie or a half-dozen others would qualify
• Understanding of the Irish educational system at primary/post primary/ adult level - Ehhh... what? That includes everyone who has ever gone to school in Ireland, not exactly excluding a huge amount of people
• Knowledge of ICT and its application in primary/post primary/ adult level education - Any IT person who ever used a computer in school
• Project management experience - Arguable. On the other hand, I did two large-scale projects as part of my degree, and numerous smaller projects with my class-mates. I somehow doubt they mean someone who has experience managing huge projects at a corporate level

Stop seeing the word experience mentioned in a description and instantly jumping to the conclusion that you must have 10 years under your belt to have a chance of qualifying. I wish that position had been available when I was looking at the WPP placements, it would have suited me perfectly and would have been a possible way in to working for Microsoft.

BostonB

miec wrote: »

I....Now please ffs don't tell me that this is fair or right. Microsoft are not struggling and I am disgusted with the blatant abuse of this system. There is working for free and then there is bending over and letting someone shaft you so much that there is no dignity remaining.

Its just a guess but I don't think a company that makes billions is doing it to make a fast buck. Its far more likely they are doing it soley to give people a chance. MS have a history of taking on students and temporary staff.

stupidusername

28064212 - It's interesting to see in your last 25 posts, 16 of these were posted between the hours of 9 and 5.30 during the day, regular working day. So it makes me wonder just how much of your day is actually spent doing work on your valuable placement?

28064212

stupidusername wrote: »

28064212 - It's interesting to see in your last 25 posts, 16 of these were posted between the hours of 9 and 5.30 during the day, regular working day. So it makes me wonder just how much of your day is actually spent doing work on your valuable placement?

That's what you're resorting to? Really? Given you know nothing about my job or my circumstances, and that my bosses are happy enough with my performances that they've said I will most likely be offered a permanent position at the end of the placement, I think I'll justify myself to them, not you. If you want to address the points I've made, please do so, otherwise keep your assumptions to yourself

miec

Many of them say that experience is preferable, that's hardly a surprise. If two people apply for the same position and one has 3 months experience in the same area from (for example) a work placement in college, obviously they're going to be more preferable.

You have answered my question, now let's change the work experience from 3 months to a year or two years experience, the company is always going to select the candidate with the most experience. It is naive to think that those with more experience will not apply for the WPP jobs when there is nothing else available, as many people have pointed out, they don't want to have gaps in their CV. I don't blame a company wanting the most experienced candidate, nor do I blame them taking advantage of the WPP scheme but I am angry that it is not regulated, it is affecting other jobs and the country cannot afford it. I am resolute in that belief and normally I am not so dogmatic. Where I perceive something to be abused, etc, I will highlight it. There are plenty of companies that do stick to the guidelines of the WPP scheme, or at least appear to on the FAS website and as you and others have pointed out it has been very positive for you all but I am highlighting the aspects where it is not positive. I have extensively highlighted my reasons with hard evidence. I highlighted the experience section because the jobs I listed are supposed to offer experience to new graduates taking these jobs. Yes their degree should be in that field and I can concur with certain qualities needed but they do desire or seek experience, which means that the company will take on those with experience because most people are getting desperate now. Despite all my misgivings about the WPP even I have considered it. Also it is naive to think that a person does not incur extra expenses when they work. Even if you bring a packed lunch, you may still need to by a cup of tea or two which is anything between 2-4 euros a day, which is 10 to 20 euros a week. Also what if your fellow co-workers ask you out for a social evening, you cannot afford that on the dole. If you are working for nine months with no extra pay, you need to replace clothes (as a woman I would need regular tights, hair done, etc) where do you get the money for those things. The dole is enough to live on (and rightly so) but not to take up a professional, unpaid job for nine months.

Its just a guess but I don't think a company that makes billions is doing it to make a fast buck. Its far more likely they are doing it soley to give people a chance. MS have a history of taking on students and temporary staff.

I do not understand this attitude, they are hoping to get someone to take on a highly responsible job, with project management experience, and pay them what???? Nothing, our government, which has billions of euros in debt pays the wage instead. That is economic lunacy.

amiable

kkelly77 wrote: »

Hello all,

I see a lot of jobs advertised on FAS on the Work Placement Programme (WPP).

Has anyone been offered a job under this scheme? Are you still paid whatever you were receiving on the social welfare while working in that particular area?

K

Companies are really taking advantage of this scheme.
My brother was left go a few months back from his job and then same company advertised his job on one of these WPP schemes a few weeks later.
Its a total disgrace

jimoc

amiable wrote: »

Companies are really taking advantage of this scheme.
My brother was left go a few months back from his job and then same company advertised his job on one of these WPP schemes a few weeks later.
Its a total disgrace

Did your brother reapply?

28064212

miec wrote: »

You have answered my question, now let's change the work experience from 3 months to a year or two years experience, the company is always going to select the candidate with the most experience. It is naive to think that those with more experience will not apply for the WPP jobs when there is nothing else available, as many people have pointed out, they don't want to have gaps in their CV.

Why is it naive? People with experience have nothing to gain by doing it. 8 years of top-level experience followed by a 9 month work placement is not any more impressive that 8 years of top-level experience followed by 9 months on the dole in the middle of a recession. And there are far better things they can spend their time on instead, like getting qualifications related to their area.

miec wrote: »

I have extensively highlighted my reasons with hard evidence. I highlighted the experience section because the jobs I listed are supposed to offer experience to new graduates taking these jobs. Yes their degree should be in that field and I can concur with certain qualities needed but they do desire or seek experience, which means that the company will take on those with experience because most people are getting desperate now.

But you haven't. You posted a list of 16 positions (and the Microsoft one). One of them was actually trying to abuse the scheme, and that has been up for more than 2 months at this stage. The rest were all perfectly valid examples of what the WPP is for. They all display areas that they are offering experience in. And you certainly haven't given any evidence to show that people with experience are actually taking up these positions.

miec wrote: »

Also it is naive to think that a person does not incur extra expenses when they work. Even if you bring a packed lunch, you may still need to by a cup of tea or two which is anything between 2-4 euros a day, which is 10 to 20 euros a week. Also what if your fellow co-workers ask you out for a social evening, you cannot afford that on the dole. If you are working for nine months with no extra pay, you need to replace clothes (as a woman I would need regular tights, hair done, etc) where do you get the money for those things. The dole is enough to live on (and rightly so) but not to take up a professional, unpaid job for nine months.

You're making the assumption that you have to make changes to the standard of your lifestyle because you have a job. Your colleagues know that you would be on a much lower wage than they are. Why do you have to buy a cup of tea every day? Is that a cup of tea you wouldn't be drinking otherwise? I've been on a couple of social nights with my company. One of them was the office Christmas party. The others, I made sacrifices that week so I could afford to go out, same as I do when I go out with my friends.

miec wrote: »

I do not understand this attitude, they are hoping to get someone to take on a highly responsible job, with project management experience, and pay them what???? Nothing, our government, which has billions of euros in debt pays the wage instead. That is economic lunacy.

You're just drawing your own conclusions about that position that don't bear up to scrutiny. I've seen the same and similar requirements be asked for graduate programmes for 'real' jobs. Asking for 'Project Management' skills for a work placement is a completely different context to asking for those same skills for someone who's going to head up a whole team of people. And the government doesn't pay the wages, they just continue paying the dole that, in almost all cases, they were going to have to do anyway.

amiable wrote: »

Companies are really taking advantage of this scheme.
My brother was left go a few months back from his job and then same company advertised his job on one of these WPP schemes a few weeks later.
Its a total disgrace

Was he made redundant? If so, it's illegal (regardless of whether he was replaced with a WPP participant or just someone who worked for a lower wage), tell him to talk to a solicitor. Nothing to do with whether the WPP exists or not, it's illegal regardless.

BostonB

miec wrote: »

...I do not understand this attitude, they are hoping to get someone to take on a highly responsible job, with project management experience, and pay them what???? Nothing, our government, which has billions of euros in debt pays the wage instead. That is economic lunacy.

Personally I can't imagine they would give them that big a job to do. More likely they be a project managers helper. From experience the job spec you read in ads are not usually very accurate.

mood

amiable wrote: »

Companies are really taking advantage of this scheme.
My brother was left go a few months back from his job and then same company advertised his job on one of these WPP schemes a few weeks later.
Its a total disgrace

That company are so stupid. He could very easily take them to court over it.

miec

You posted a list of 16 positions (and the Microsoft one). One of them was actually trying to abuse the scheme, and that has been up for more than 2 months at this stage. The rest were all perfectly valid examples of what the WPP is for. They all display areas that they are offering experience in. And you certainly haven't given any evidence to show that people with experience are actually taking up these positions.

Hi 28064212

I don't know whose tenacity I admire the more - yours or mine, but at least anyone weighing up the pros and cons of the WPP scheme get both sides of the debate

I guess the twain shall never meet in our viewpoints but that's okay, I'll never be in favour of it and you look upon it as a positive scheme. The only thing I will say in relation to the above quote is the following:

1. I believe the jobs that I posted up are not valid WPP jobs and they represent hard evidence that they are in breach of the WPP rules.
2. It is impossible for me to show evidence of people with experience applying for WPP jobs. I can only make inferences from posts here and anecdotal information that I have received. I believe that some people with experience are applying for some of these positions just to get of the dole and do something active. Being unemployed for a long time is extremely stressful for those who hate it. I could be wrong but I believe in some instances this occurs.
3. This a lengthy thread and I have put other examples in earlier postings that were also in breach of the WPP rules.

Arsenal1986

I have a mate who's been offered an unpaid Stage/Internship in the European Commission in Brussels for 3 months, they are on Jobseekers Allowance, What are the chances the WPP program would extend to this? Very slim I presume?

clarelad

Hi guys quick question,is anyone else here doing a 6 month placement instead of the 9 months? I thought the minimum to offer was 9 months? Maybe this is a sign they will not keep me on...

28064212

clarelad wrote: »

Hi guys quick question,is anyone else here doing a 6 month placement instead of the 9 months? I thought the minimum to offer was 9 months? Maybe this is a sign they will not keep me on...

Mine started as a 6 month placement, but that was the original duration. Fás changed all* the 6 month ones to 9 months at the start of March. They sent an email to the companies saying they were all being changed, but the company could ask for an exception and stay at 6 months, so that could be what your's did. Or it could end up being extended to 9 months after you start. I wouldn't worry about it, it could also mean that they just want to get the training and evaluation over with quicker so they can fill a permanent position faster

*At least, that's what happened with mine, I assume it was true for everyone on the scheme

maninasia

28064212 wrote: »

Wow. I bow to your obviously completely well-thought-out and considerate analysis of the scheme. Well done.


Incidentally...

• Person recently graduated can't find work due to the mass of qualified and experienced people out there and the small number of positions available, person has no way to gain the experience necessary to actually compete, person has to emigrate or try and live on the dole.
• Company can't afford to pay someone (or can and worker turns out to be worse than useless), company goes under because they have become extremely unprofitable, entire company workforce out of a job.

Clearly, that proves your hypothesis completely wrong. Oh and where is the waste of money argument coming from? I can understand arguing that it's not a good idea, but, aside from the minimal cost of administration, how is it a waste of money?

It delays the full unemployment quotient by at most 9 months. Because job seekers will come out looking for work again at that time. Even worse, it reduces the number of paid positions available...it is 'job negative'. In addition it is fully paid for by the state when it should obviously should be only PARTIALLY paid like all over advanced countries.
In it's current form it invites collusion and corruption between government agencies and employers.

the_syco

maninasia wrote: »

In it's current form it invites collusion and corruption between government agencies and employers.

I forsee a report in about 10 years that will cost millions to make that will verify this point, and as per usual, no-one will get charged... :rolleyes:

jimoc

Has anyone that has been employed or done interviews been asked to sign a contract by the company to state that you will not leave before the 9months is up?

28064212

jimoc wrote: »

Has anyone that has been employed or done interviews been asked to sign a contract by the company to state that you will not leave before the 9months is up?

Nope, and that's certainly against the terms of the WPP, and most definitely not legally enforceable*. You're not actually an employee of the company while you're there under the WPP, they can't hold you to any contract signed under the pretense that you are one.

*Not a lawyer

jimoc

28064212 wrote: »

Nope, and that's certainly against the terms of the WPP, and most definitely not legally enforceable*. You're not actually an employee of the company while you're there under the WPP, they can't hold you to any contract signed under the pretense that you are one.

*Not a lawyer

Yup, thats what the nice lady at the FAS head office told me when I rang and complained.
My wife went for an interview and was told at the end that if she was successful she would need to sign a contract saying that she would stay the full 9 months. The rationale of the interviewer was that they weren't going to waste their time training someone who was going to leave. I thought the point of the scheme was to train people so they could get jobs!!!.
She of course refused as she is looking for a paying job all the time.
Obviously she has blown her chances with this crowd but FAS will be investigating them and removing them from the scheme if they find that this is the case.

28064212

I think my response would have been to add an item to the contract stating a suitable salary and told them to sign it

clarelad

Hi,just started my 6 month placement on monday,should i be signing some sort of contract?

jimoc

clarelad wrote: »

Hi,just started my 6 month placement on monday,should i be signing some sort of contract?

Absolutely not, the FAS lady I spoke to was very emphatic about that.
The company is not paying you so they cannot make you sign any contract or force you to stay for any period of time, if you want to leave the ask that people give a weeks notice but you are not obliged to.

Except of course for the FAS commencement form mentioned in the post below.

28064212

I've forgotten the details, but I'm pretty sure I signed some sort of commencement form. It would have been very simple, just stating that I was starting a WPP placement on such and such a date, and laying out the guidelines for either side ending it (think it was a week's notice). Definitely nothing like an employment contract. Also, it would have been a standardised Fás form, not an employer one

44.6% of full time jobs on fas.ie are now WPP 1 & 2


This is clearly taking away from real jobs

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

44.6% of full time jobs on fas.ie are now WPP 1 & 2

This is clearly taking away from real jobs

Except it doesn't show that at all. To show it's actually taking away from real jobs, you have to show that those companies would still be hiring if the WPP didn't exist. I know my one certainly wouldn't have, they would have battened down the hatches and reassigned the work internally

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

Except it doesn't show that at all. To show it's actually taking away from real jobs, you have to show that those companies would still be hiring if the WPP didn't exist. I know my one certainly wouldn't have, they would have battened down the hatches and reassigned the work internally

no the increasing ratio of WPP1 & 2 to real jobs is sufficient

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

no the increasing ratio of WPP1 & 2 to real jobs is sufficient

So many things wrong with that statement.

• First of all, an increasing ratio wouldn't show that, since the total amount of 'real' jobs could well still be increasing
• It doesn't take into account the fact that 'real' jobs would have a much higher rate of turnover than the WPP positions, many of which have been on the site for months
• A company advertising a WPP position is no indication of whether they would be advertising a permanent position if it didn't exist
• If a company would have been advertising a permanent position if it didn't exist, it doesn't take into account the very high probability that they would take on the participant at the end of the placement
• It doesn't even consider what the stats are for other jobs sites which would be overwhelmingly dominated by 'real' jobs