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Dan Boyle has no confidence in Willie O'Dea

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    #32
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    walshb wrote: »
    This mater should be far from over. It is now a matter for the Gardai and the DPP, and this ridiculous, "done and dusted" stance is not on. I won't hold my breath though

    Correct, either there is respect for the laws of the land or no citizen is obliged to respect the law. We can have democracy or FF/Green Party anarchy.
    The curious thing about this is that it puts FF and the Green party on the same moral level as Sinn Feinn. If one could contemplate voting for Ff or Greens, then is no moral obstacle, now, for voting Sinn Feinn.


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    #33
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    taconnol wrote: »
    I'm getting tired of the Greens being the fall guy for everything that happens with this government - you wouldn't think there were only 6 Greens in government the way some posters go on. It is an absolutely normal day now, when the Greens get more flak over something a FF TD does than FF.

    Hold on there just a second!

    The Greens are not getting flak "over something a FF TD does".

    The Greens are getting flak over something the Greens did - voted that they had confidence in said-same TD!

    And in doing so propped up an incompetent and corrupt Government.

    So the Greens had better either start getting used to blame being apportioned; or, of course, start doing the right thing for a change.


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    #34
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    taconnol wrote: »
    Hardly an unbiased source.

    Let's be clear: this issue is a political one not a legal one.

    I'm getting tired of the Greens being the fall guy for everything that happens with this government - you wouldn't think there were only 6 Greens in government the way some posters go on. It is an absolutely normal day now, when the Greens get more flak over something a FF TD does than FF.

    Having said all that, I'm not sure how much FF nonsense can be suffered.

    no it's not political it is legal, just more annoying when the law makers can break the law with impunity. The reason they are getting flack is by not living up to their pre election high standards and morals they told us they had. Check out Gormley's 2007 speech on the matter.


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    #35
    Trotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    Respecting your loyalties taconnol, FF are putting your party up front to take the flak. All the FF TDs voted with him. We know what to expect from FF so no surprises there. We expected more from the Greens because they were selling their ethics at election time. I feel for Green supporters today because my God have you been let down.


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    #36
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The Greens are not getting flak "over something a FF TD does".

    The Greens are getting flak over something the Greens did - voted that they had confidence in said-same TD!
    Yes - everything that a FF TD does gets turned into a story about how the Greens voted on it. That's exactly my point.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    So the Greens had better either start getting used to blame being apportioned; or, of course, start doing the right thing for a change.
    Oh, we're quite used to it, thank you. But on the subject of sharing the blame. Where are all the condemnations of the 74 FF TDs voting in favour?
    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    no it's not political it is legal, just more annoying when the law makers can break the law with impunity. The reason they are getting flack is by not living up to their pre election high standards and morals they told us they had.
    It isn't legal. The matter has been dealt with in the courts.


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    #37
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Trotter wrote: »
    Respecting your loyalties taconnol, FF are putting your party up front to take the flak. All the FF TDs voted with him. We know what to expect from FF so no surprises there. We expected more from the Greens because they were selling their ethics at election time. I feel for Green supporters today because my God have you been let down.
    I see.

    So according to your logic, the Greens should just reduce their expectations in the eyes of the voters so that we reach the point where there are "no surprises" and therefore we get none of the flak?

    Every party sells itself on its ethics - let's have a bit of a reality check.


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    #38
    mysillyusername
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭mysillyusername


    [QUOTE

    It isn't legal. The matter has been dealt with in the courts.[/QUOTE]


    But a minister of this state lied....how could anyone have confidence in that


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    #39
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    taconnol wrote: »
    Yes - everything that a FF TD does gets turned into a story about how the Greens voted on it. That's exactly my point.


    Oh, we're quite used to it, thank you. But on the subject of sharing the blame. Where are all the condemnations of the 74 FF TDs voting in favour?


    It isn't legal. The matter has been dealt with in the courts.

    You should read a bit more about the court case, the defamation was dealt with not the sworn affidavit.

    And the reason the stories get turned into the Greens voting with the government because by doing so they are either condoning the actions, or are 2 faced and want to claw on to power no matter what the cost. How can anyone every believe a word that comes from their mouths any more????


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    #40
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    taconnol wrote: »
    Yes - everything that a FF TD does gets turned into a story about how the Greens voted on it. That's exactly my point.

    Then start voting the right way it! Simple!
    taconnol wrote: »
    Oh, we're quite used to it, thank you. But on the subject of sharing the blame. Where are all the condemnations of the 74 FF TDs voting in favour?

    Because we expect self-interest and corruption from FF.

    And if the Greens want to tar themselves with the same brush, they'd do well to remember what happened the PDs.......a party that also started off with morals and ethics and sold them at the altar of FF.

    But keep going......after all the goings-on since the u-turn post-election, we won't have cause for surprise for much longer.....it'll be a given that the Greens will prop up FF at any cost.


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    #41
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    taconnol wrote: »
    Hardly an unbiased source.

    The very idea of an 'unbiased source' only came into being as the press became dominated by a small number of large corporations. Previously they'd have openly taken a side and pitched it, and thankfully, a lot of smaller independent publications still do. There's a very good book about this called "People's Movements, People's Press" by B Ostertag.

    If this is the type of argument used to defend the Green's actions they're running on thin ground.


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    #42
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    it wasnt dealt with in the courts, it was settled out of court!

    Dan Boyle, you are the biggest gob****e in the land!


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    #43
    Trotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    taconnol wrote: »
    I see.

    So according to your logic, the Greens should just reduce their expectations in the eyes of the voters so that we reach the point where there are "no surprises" and therefore we get none of the flak?

    Every party sells itself on its ethics - let's have a bit of a reality check.

    Eh no. Thats not what I said at all. If you want a reality check then here it is; In order to milk the time in government, your TDs have got messy with trouble they shouldn't be in. Their support of the wrongs done by FF is shown in Dáil votes and not in Twitter updates. Endless ''It wasn't us'' statements are fine.. But it was the Greens that got that vote through last night. The FF TDs should also be condemned but I expected more from the Greens than I did from FF yesterday. I had held the Green TDs, well most of them anyway, in higher standing than the FF TDs. I don't now.


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    #44
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Then start voting the right way it! Simple!
    At this stage I'll have to assume you don't understand the implications of voting against the government on this issue.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And if the Greens want to tar themselves with the same brush, they'd do well to remember what happened the PDs.......a party that also started off with morals and ethics and sold them at the altar of FF.
    God, the populist rants and religious references are getting more tiring by the day. You would think Enda Kenny is God at this stage.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    But keep going......after all the goings-on since the u-turn post-election, we won't have cause for surprise for much longer.....it'll be a given that the Greens will prop up FF at any cost.
    How many more times does this have to be explained. The Greens only got 6% of the vote. Why, now, does everyone expect the Greens to have enough power to implement everything they want in government? If it was that important to everyone, why did only 6% vote for the Greens?

    And if it isn't that important to you and you're just complaining about the principle of having to compromise in a coalition government, I suggest you read up on the realities of coalition governments.


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    #45
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    It is our dedication to human rights, social justice and ecological sustainability which has motivated this Party since its foundation. It is this dedication which has also motivated our insistence on high standards in public life. Unlike other parties, the Green Party has taken a principled position, perhaps to our own disadvantage, to refuse donations from big business. We have always said that we would look after our political morality. It has been said that when we were faced with the choice between looking after other parties' ethics and saving the planet, we took the easier option and decided to save the planet. And, rightly so - and we make no apologies.

    John Gormley speech Green Party Conference 2008.


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    #46
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    taconnol wrote: »
    I see.

    So according to your logic, the Greens should just reduce their expectations in the eyes of the voters so that we reach the point where there are "no surprises" and therefore we get none of the flak?

    Every party sells itself on its ethics - let's have a bit of a reality check.

    Incorrect, the Greens explicitly sold themselves on the basis of being more ethical than anyother party in the republic. If you put yourselves up on the high moral ground, above all others, then you must be judged accordingly. The PDs took many years before selling out to the FFers; the Greens sold out as soon as they put their arses on Ministerial seats. The Greens only motivation now is power, money and power. Their claims about the environment now deserve to be taken as seriousily as a Willie O dea affidavit ! The Greens are not interested in saving the environment, they only want to exploit it for money, for politicial careers, for Ministerial salaries, pensions and Ministerial cars. The greens are not part of the problem, they are the problem.
    The Green Party is the ultimate ' Whited Sepulchre'.


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    #47
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Trotter wrote: »
    Eh no. Thats not what I said at all. If you want a reality check then here it is; In order to milk the time in government, your TDs have got messy with trouble they shouldn't be in. Their support of the wrongs done by FF is shown in Dáil votes and not in Twitter updates. Endless ''It wasn't us'' statements are fine.. But it was the Greens that got that vote through last night. The FF TDs should also be condemned but I expected more from the Greens than I did from FF yesterday. I had held the Green TDs, well most of them anyway, in higher standing than the FF TDs. I don't now.
    I am simply using your logic. You can go back and read what you wrote again, if you have to.

    As I have already said, it is naive to think that FF do not stand a good chance at the next general election, whenever that was. Remember 2007 and how much everyone hated FF and they weren't going to get in? Well look how that turned out.


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    #48
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    taconnol wrote: »
    At this stage I'll have to assume you don't understand the implications of voting against the government on this issue.


    Yes the implications being, living up to your own proclaimed ethics and morality or ignoring them for the sake of power


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    #49
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    anymore wrote: »
    Incorrect, the Greens explicitly sold themselves on the basis of being more ethical than anyother party in the republic.
    Where, exactly?
    anymore wrote: »
    The Greens only motivation now is power, money and power.
    What total nonsense.
    anymore wrote: »
    Their claims about the environment now deserve to be taken as seriousily as a Willie O dea affidavit !
    This statement is just ridiculous.
    anymore wrote: »
    The Greens are not interested in saving the environment, they only want to exploit it for money, for politicial careers, for Ministerial salaries, pensions and Ministerial cars. The greens are not part of the problem, they are the problem.
    The Green Party is the ultimate ' Whited Sepulchre'.
    More populist rantings.


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    #50
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    Yes the implications being, living up to your own proclaimed ethics and morality or ignoring them for the sake of power
    Of course I think Willie O'Dea should resign.

    Is it worth the collapse of the government? No.


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    #51
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    taconnol wrote: »
    Where, exactly?

    like in my post above of John Gormley's speech at the 2008 party conference

    It is our dedication to human rights, social justice and ecological sustainability which has motivated this Party since its foundation. It is this dedication which has also motivated our insistence on high standards in public life. Unlike other parties, the Green Party has taken a principled position, perhaps to our own disadvantage, to refuse donations from big business. We have always said that we would look after our political morality

    Was voting confidence in Willie O'Dea 'insistence of high standards in public life' ???
    Was it in keeping with your political morality???


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    #52
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,908 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    Look mysillyusername, you shouldn't be saying things like that.

    Don't you realise some poor Green supporters
    getting tired of the Greens being the fall guy for everything that happens with this government.
    Diddums

    Of course they are:

    Conveniently ignoring the fact that they are the ones propping up this regime.

    Ignoring the fact that before going in to prop up this regime one of their major selling points was being the closest thing this country had to a clean hands party.

    Ignoring the fact that if they had held to their principles and stayed out of government this time they would be in a perfect poised to go into coalition with more tds putting them in a stronger position in an election which would be far more likely to happen without them safeguarding FF.

    Ignoring the fact that they have gone back on all their major principles by being in power as part of this regime. Oh wait, that's not true, lightbulbs that contain mercury. Oh that's all right then. :rolleyes:

    Now they're whining as the electorate hold them responsible for not adhering the high standards they preached prior to going in to act as accomplices for this regime.

    Why not throw a little tantrum in public like the esteemed Paul Gogarty TD GP is reported as doing throwing himself to the ground and rolling around at a meeting last year?

    All together now
    Life's just not fair, it's not fair.

    Don't spend the last 25 odd years harping on about setting high standards in public office and how things would be so different in a Green govt and encourage people to vote for you on these grounds, and then throw all that away just as soon as Gormleys arse is in his ministerial merc.

    One of the most telling lines in his Planet Bertie speech, and one I didn't know was so true at the time was his "I can't stand another five years in opposition."

    His lust for power has killed the greens as a party for at least a generation. But that's ok he's going to get his platinum pension while people are being thrown out of their homes.


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    #53
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    The shinner at the centre of this has just called on willie to resign and said the greens have alot to answer for!


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    #54
    grrrrrrrrrr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 635 ✭✭✭grrrrrrrrrr


    Alan Shater was refused a vote of no confidence in Willie O dea in the Dail! listen to the news!!

    some realted links
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0218/1224264715439.html

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gogarty-admits-green-party-divisions-on-odea-issue-446704.html


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    #55
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    Was voting confidence in Willie O'Dea 'insistence of high standards in public life' ???
    Was it in keeping with your political morality???
    No, you're right. The motion should have failed but I still don't think it was worth bringing down the government.

    I don't think it's actually possible for me to hate FF more than I do.

    All I'll say is people confuse wanting power with wanting to achieve great things.


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    #56
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    taconnol wrote: »
    Of course I think Willie O'Dea should resign.

    Is it worth the collapse of the government? No.

    Willie O'Dea resigning does not imply the collapse of the government.

    Is it worth the collapse of the government? No
    Is it worth some losing some political capital (power) that FF might give them? Looks like it's not even worth this.

    Looks like the Green's are clinging to whatever scraps of power they get at an ever increasing cost.


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    #57
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    Willie O'Dea resigning does not imply the collapse of the government.
    No, Willie O'Dea's resignation wouldn't but losing the vote would.

    Loss of confidence in a minister? The government would have collapsed immediately. Just look at what happened to Garret Fitzgerald in 1982. He lost a vote on the budget and had to call for a dissolution of the Dail immediately.

    If a vote is lost on a small matter, the government immediately tables a motion of confidence but to lose a motion of confidence would bring about the immediate collapse of the government.

    I certainly don't think it should be this way - it's crazy.

    (ahem, overuse of the word immediately..!)


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    #58
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    The tape of the interview with Willie O'Dea is going to be played on Lunchtime on Newstalk with Eamon Keane.


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    #59
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    taconnol wrote: »
    No, Willie O'Dea's resignation wouldn't but losing the vote would.

    Loss of confidence in a minister? The government would have collapsed immediately. Just look at what happened to Garret Fitzgerald in 1982. He lost a vote on the budget and had to call for a dissolution of the Dail immediately.

    If a vote is lost on a small matter, the government immediately tables a motion of confidence but to lose a motion of confidence would bring about the immediate collapse of the government.

    I certainly don't think it should be this way - it's crazy.

    If the Green's hadn't given their support in advance, he would've resigned and it wouldn't even have come to a vote...


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    #60
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    If the Green's hadn't given their support in advance, he would've resigned and it wouldn't even have come to a vote...
    That is true. It would have been better if this had happened.


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    #61
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    taconnol wrote: »
    That is true. It would have been better if this had happened.

    If there's a bright side to this, it's that discontent about this goes right up to the Green TD's and Senators and this was made public. Maybe FF will be a little slower asking to be bailed out the next time they need it.


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