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VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post
Comments
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It would have still devalued if I sell it privately :rolleyes: Of course I'm under no obligation but your suggestion has removed that choice from me thus depriving any dealership my customIt would still have devalued along with all of the trade in stock on garage forecourtsI will let the car dealing members on here correct you on thatMine is band E. Once again I will let the car dealing members correct you on that
Again ridiculous. Of course lower band cars are selling more. They always do. We don't all have your means.
Of course this reveals your true reason for your view on VRT.
But once gain - you chose to buy a band E car. You chose to pay 28% VRT. Nobody put a gun to your head and told you to do it. There are those of us who are trying to afford a band A or B car. I'll take the depreciation on my current band C car caused if VRT were to be scrapped in the mornig in order to buy a new band A car - cause it makes economic sense.0 -
The trade in value of my car is set by the book value which corresponds to its new value. Buying off my friend allowed me access to their secret Glass's guide which showed me the book value and thats what he offered along with a extra couple of hundred due to low mileage and condition. This has been the case in all 9 new cars that I've purchased.
You still haven't addressed my point on peoples outstanding finance as in the example I gave
Also your point on cars devalueing thats what they do. Take the current traded in stock on forecourts acroos the country. The dealer would have given pre VRT abolishment values to the customers who traded in. He would the have to sell all of this stock at post VRT abolishment prices putting him out of business
Of course nobody put a gun to my head but I wanted a new car and was fortunate enough to be able to afford one.
Of course I'm looking at it from my point of view and my circumstaces which would be the same for 1000's of others
Maybe in your case you don't have to worry about finance settlement figures so in that case I can see why your suggestion would suit you0 -
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Jesus, I can't take any more. You really don't know what you're talking about, opinion guy.
Opinion guy on the value of cars:opinion guy wrote: »But that "value" on a car is meaningless and subject to market forces anyway.
But would he be able to explain to the guy who's lost €70k in 2 years how meaningless the value of his car is?opinion guy wrote: »To give you an example. A dealer told me of a guy trying to trade in a car he paid 100,000 for in 2008. Most he can get now is 30,000 cause of the recession, petrol prices and the annual tax bands. It has jack **** to do with VRT. Except without VRT he would not have paid so much out in the first place. This 'value' you speak of is artifically inflated.
Opinion guy on the free market:opinion guy wrote: »Yes but the point is the value is set by the market.
So the value of a car is set by the market, by the convergence of the value expectations of both buyers and sellers...opinion guy wrote: »So don't trade in your car. Sell it privately for a price you see fit.
...but if you're unhappy with the trade in value you're being offered, you just go and sell the car privately for whatever price you see fit.
Opinion guy on dealer pricing:opinion guy wrote: »As ROR said above - dealers are ALREADY lowering prices to compete with UK imports.opinion guy wrote: »If you scrap VRT values adjust here you actually have a more competitive market which is good for consumers and dealers alike.
But I'd have to ask, is competitive the same as cheap?
Dealers are already on extremely tight margins, even in the good times. When dealers have to lower the price of the car they've already bought to match the value of the cars that are coming in from the UK, that decreases their profitability.
How is artificially depreciating the stock of a business good for that business?opinion guy wrote: »Dealers make money by turing over stock - by selling more cars, not by hoarding them for their value.
Dealers make money by selling stock for profit - turnover on their artificially depreciated stock merely gives them enough cashflow to pay their bills that month.
If you're making a loss on each car you sell, then selling more of them is the exact opposite of what's good for your business.
This is a great point, up to a point:opinion guy wrote: »Furthermoe you scrap VRT and our dealers can start exporting cars to the north /europe
Giving the ability to reclaim VRT on exported cars would open up the used car market to the UK and make a massive difference to the car market.
I don't think I'd be considering Europe as a massive market for our used cars though, they drive on the wrong side of the road...
Now for some fuzzy maths...opinion guy wrote: »NO. It would not be devalued by 7500. it would devalue by a percentage of that.
What percentage exactly? Would you even take a guess?
If you owned a car that cost €45k three years ago and is now worth €25k, what would be the effect on your car if I dropped the cost of the new car by €7,500?opinion guy wrote: »I'll take the depreciation on my current band C car caused if VRT were to be scrapped in the mornig in order to buy a new band A car - cause it makes economic sense.
So you'd like to see the depreciation on your car (caused by the new version of your car dropping 20% in price), so you could buy your next new car for 14% cheaper?
I'd say you'd barely break even on that transaction (depending on the age & value of your car, of course)
And the best bit of logic?opinion guy wrote: »The only reason sales are up this year is both due to the scrappage scheme and also the comparison to such a bad year last year.
Ask any of the people on here in the motor trade and they will tel you the same
Also rubbish. Its partly the scrappage scheme, partly (the biggest part in my opinion) the collapse of the housing market, partly the VRT changes (let me ask you a quesiton - which cars do you think are selling - VRT band A, B, C or the higher bands ??)
So the reason car sales are up this year compared to last year is because of the collapse in the housing market?
I'm sorry opinion guy, I think you're really wrong.0 -
Jesus, I can't take any more. You really don't know what you're talking about, opinion guy.
Opinion guy on the value of cars:
But would he be able to explain to the guy who's lost €70k in 2 years how meaningless the value of his car is?
Your in danger of straw manning me here. The point was this car lost its value due to market forces. Its nothing to do with VRT. Scrapping VRT wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to this guy.
Opinion guy on the free market:
So the value of a car is set by the market, by the convergence of the value expectations of both buyers and sellers...
...but if you're unhappy with the trade in value you're being offered, you just go and sell the car privately for whatever price you see fit.
Opinion guy on dealer pricing:
But I'd have to ask, is competitive the same as cheap?
Dealers are already on extremely tight margins, even in the good times. When dealers have to lower the price of the car they've already bought to match the value of the cars that are coming in from the UK, that decreases their profitability.
How is artificially depreciating the stock of a business good for that business?Dealers make money by selling stock for profit - turnover on their artificially depreciated stock merely gives them enough cashflow to pay their bills that month.If you're making a loss on each car you sell, then selling more of them is the exact opposite of what's good for your business.
Now at this point I want to say something. I'm assuming free market conditions. If you are telling me that the dealers are all going on a reference book to look up values then thats not a free market, thats a cartel. Frankly, if that is the case my attitude is f**k them - thats anti-competitive, anti consumer and in this case the sector needs a major kick up the arse. But i digress, we are discussing VRT.
This is a great point, up to a point:
Giving the ability to reclaim VRT on exported cars would open up the used car market to the UK and make a massive difference to the car market.
I don't think I'd be considering Europe as a massive market for our used cars though, they drive on the wrong side of the road...
hahaha you got me there. I completely forget about the right hand drive thing.:D But oh well, the UK is a pretty huge market in and of itself. and hey if Johhny Frenchman could save a few grand buying here maybe he woudln't mind having a left hand drive car - thats his business.
Now for some fuzzy maths...
What percentage exactly? Would you even take a guess?
If you owned a car that cost €45k three years ago and is now worth €25k, what would be the effect on your car if I dropped the cost of the new car by €7,500?
Well, roughly speaking assuming depreciation for a given model is relatively steady, your loss on the 25 k second hand car would be 25/45 * 7500 = 4166 EUR loss in book value. in theory - assuming you just scrapped VRT and didn't change anything else (which is NOT what I am suggesting - I'm getting tired of saying that). Market conditions may override this. For example if its an 2009 car it will hold its value better.So you'd like to see the depreciation on your car (caused by the new version of your car dropping 20% in price), so you could buy your next new car for 14% cheaper?I'd say you'd barely break even on that transaction (depending on the age & value of your car, of course)
And the best bit of logic?
So the reason car sales are up this year compared to last year is because of the collapse in the housing market?
Aboslutely. The people who still have money to spend are NOT spending it on houses. Interst rates on deposit suck. THese people are the ones now buying cars till the housing market wakes up again.I'm sorry opinion guy, I think you're really wrong.
Speaking of math - more to come in a minute. but i fell this post is long enough0 -
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Was just discussing this with my brother a while ago and, despite us both being anti-vrt, the one major point he made was about what's already been hinted on here.
You would have to phase in the abolishment or reduction of VRT as to not bankrupt all the dealers straight away, but in doing so, if the consumer knows that in x months time they could go to the UK and pick up a nice car without the VRT... they'd hold off on their next purchase up until that point. They'd be stupid not to, to be honest.
So, car sales would drop dramatically while people hold out for the VRT changes.
What would dealers do in the mean time while their cars sat on the forecourt without any possible buyers, just waiting for the VRT to change over?
That's the only part of the situation that I can't really wrap my head around unfortunately.
A lot of dealers may be only barely staying above water at this stage and this sort of change could put them out of business.
However, in the long run, the situation would obviously be a vast improvement imo.
If you didn't tax fuel to recoup the money, but you increased VAT (like I think you are saying, opinion guy), then everyone is contributing equally to the nation... rather than just the people connected to the motor industry.
This means all the people on their bicycles and motorbikes who currently contribute pretty much nothing (or just plain nothing in cyclists case) to our roads in comparison to a car driver, despite sharing our roads and having the same rights on our roads too.
Do the people that are connected in the motor industry not agree that if we could start from scratch, without VRT, that things would be better for our motor industry?
And if you do think we'd be better off, what would your suggestions be to get from where we are now, to the removal of VRT, without putting you guys out of business?0 -
So the Math
What i suggested earlier was this:Personally I think they should scrap VRT, differentally adjust VAT on vehicles in accordance with vehicle emmissions bands and make up any shortfall in higher fuel taxes.
Say a base rate VAT for emissions band A of 25%, 27% for B, 30% for C, 35% for D, 40% for E and up.
Now everyone is jumping down my throat on this. But lets look at what a regime would do to new car prices in actuality. Ok for simplicity I'm assuming a pretax price of 20,000. I worked some figures in the spread sheet and heres what I came up with (note extended my scale to include all tax bands):
Attachment not found.
As you can see - this actually doesn't cause huge drops in car value. Its roughly a 3000 euro drop for each band.
Applying to the example you used earlier of a 45k EUR car now worth 25k. I could be smart about it and assume tax band G but lest not lets say E whichi i fair enouhg for a car of that value I would say. so working back that had a pretax purchase value of roughly 29k. Under the proposed system its purchase price would have been 40,509. Fair enough ? So scaling that then the depreciation on his 25k car would have been (45000-40509) * (25/45) = 2495.
If he were to replace his car with a new one he would have a net saving of 1996 EUR. Yay. Consumer wins. Consumer does not lose out from his "devaluation".
So if we adjust the laws in this way - consumer does better. Not alot better, but a bit better. Certainly enough to stop many going to the UK and having all the extra hassle involved in that. Now to the dealer - yes he takes an overnight stock hit. This is a once off. Its finished once he has sold all the cars on his lott the night of the changeover. And as we've shown the loss is more modest than we thought. But to compensate him, he gains the benefit of a more stimulated new AND second hand market, AND hugely enhanced competitiveness in selling cars to the UK & NI.
Frankly its a no brainer. But sure thing - you all continue being Turkey's voting for Christmas.0 -
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opinion guy wrote: »Now to the dealer - yes he takes an overnight stock hit. This is a once off. Its finished once he has sold all the cars on his lott the night of the changeover. And as we've shown the loss is more modest than we thought. But to compensate him, he gains the benefit of a more stimulated new AND second hand market, AND hugely enhanced competitiveness in selling cars to the UK & NI.
The only issue is that, if some dealer's circumstances are as bleak as we're lead to believe (I honestly don't know), the initial hit may wipe them out.
I'm in complete agreement that once they're capable of getting over that initial slump, they would be in the clear and would most likely be more profitable than they ever were in the long run.
If the motor industry guys agreed with that assessment, then I don't know why they give the anti-vrt suggestions such a hard time instead of trying to find intelligent ways of working toward it.
But if a dealer is operating on small margins, they may not be able to sell their current stock at a loss and then buy in the new vrt-affected stock.0 -
double post ?!?!?
no clue whats going on with my browser0 -
If you didn't tax fuel to recoup the money, but you increased VAT (like I think you are saying, opinion guy), then everyone is contributing equally to the nation... rather than just the people connected to the motor industry.
We did this on the last page. Our VAT is already higher than the UK, meaning straight away the cars will be a few percent higher than the UK. Then add the extra Vat and why would anyone ever buy a car in Ireland again?0 -
We did this on the last page. Our VAT is already higher than the UK, meaning straight away the cars will be a few percent higher than the UK. Then add the extra Vat and why would anyone ever buy a car in Ireland again?
Opinion guy answered that exact question with one of his previous posts as well.
But I'll entertain your point.
Why do we buy our cars in Ireland to begin with when we're already WAY more expensive for most cars than the UK (again, look at opinion guys comparison about the A3)? If we were only marginally more expensive for certain cars than the UK, then I think we're heading in the right direction.
I'd much rather a small trip to a local dealer than having to take ferries and so on.0 -
Would we not need more lending to finance the increased sales though?
I know the scrappage scheme has resulted in increased sales, but its hardly a massive increase.
People are expecting a boom in car sales to off set the abolition of VRT. In a recession I don't know if this would happen, especially in the current one we have.
Banks and finance companies aren't going to throw out loans like confetti, like the 00's.
Of course that is before considering if getting 100's of 1,000's of people buying new cars is a good thing, given the current economic conditions. Surely there are better things for people to put this money, than new cars? Have we learned anything from the past decade?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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People are expecting a boom in car sales to off set the abolition of VRT. In a recession I don't know if this would happen, especially in the current one we have.
We wouldnt just need a boom in car sales, they'd need to be probably twice what it was during the height of car sales up to 2007ish, which is just never goign to happen in a million years.0 -
Would we not need more lending to finance the increased sales though?
I know the scrappage scheme has resulted in increased sales, but its hardly a massive increase.People are expecting a boom in car sales to off set the abolition of VRT. In a recession I don't know if this would happen, especially in the current one we have.0 -
Why do we buy our cars in Ireland to begin with when we're already WAY more expensive for most cars than the UK (again, look at opinion guys comparison about the A3)? If we were only marginally more expensive for certain cars than the UK, then I think we're heading in the right direction.
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Using one dirt cheap example of an A3 isnt any sort of conclusive proof.
Anyway, lets take what you say at face value. The same-ish amount of people will go to the UK as now and a similar sort of amount will continue buying cars here. People buy cars now, without VRT but with higher VAT they would still be spending the same amount of money just getting a slightly newer/higher spec car. Net result would be none or very little increase in the number of sales but less tax take.
So where does the money come from to run the country. Rememeber we need to replace the €1b+ it was in the good times, not the €400m ish recession take.0 -
Using one dirt cheap example of an A3 isnt any sort of conclusive proof.
Anyway, lets take what you say at face value. The same-ish amount of people will go to the UK as now and a similar sort of amount will continue buying cars here. People buy cars now, without VRT but with higher VAT they would still be spending the same amount of money just getting a slightly newer/higher spec car. Net result would be none or very little increase in the number of sales but less tax take.
So where does the money come from to run the country. Rememeber we need to replace the €1b+ it was in the good times, not the €400m ish recession take.
Did you actually READ my two substantial posts above ? You would be giving people less incentive to go to UK, plus giving UK buyers incentive to buy new cars here - which is good for us. I've also explained, twice, in those posts how you would not be losing the value off your band E car as you thought you would and you'd be saving on your trade in next year0 -
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opinion guy wrote: »Did you actually READ my two substantial posts above ? You would be giving people less incentive to go to UK, plus giving UK buyers incentive to buy new cars here - which is good for us. I've also explained, twice, in those posts how you would not be losing the value off your band E car as you thought you would and you'd be saving on your trade in next year
If 60,000 people are currently buying used cars, whether it's here or the UK and you then abolish VRT , it'll still be those 60,000 people buying cars ,regardless if everyone of them buys here or in the UK, the country is down money. There wont be any increase in people buying cars. There WILL be a huge shortfall in tax take.
The savings to the consumer is largely irrelevant. Tax take is where the issues are.
We buy plenty of new (rough calculation 1 in 24 of us bought a new car in 2007 compared to 1 in 26 in the UK) and used cars here, even with VRT , sales are not going to go up with a VRT abolition, tax take will just go down.0 -
opinion guy wrote: »New car sales to May in 2010 were already above total new car sales for 2010. Someone is lending. Someone is making profit.
Did you read the math above? I'm suggesting changes to VAT on cars to compensate.
But nowhere near 07/08 sales.
09 Sales were drastically down on 07. A fraction. Yes, sales have increased and the scheme has boosted sales, but in the current economic conditions, we will get nowhere near 07/08 sales.
Why cut one tax and increase another, on the exact same commodity, I might add?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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If 60,000 people are currently buying used cars, whether it's here or the UK and you then abolish VRT , it'll still be those 60,000 people buying cars ,regardless if everyone of them buys here or in the UK, the country is down money. There wont be any increase in people buying cars. There WILL be a huge shortfall in tax take.
The savings to the consumer is largely irrelevant. Tax take is where the issues are.
See figures on increased VAT. I'm getting really tired of repeating myself. Yes there will be a total loss of VRT income on second hand imports ONLY. But as you and other have said thats a small numberBut nowhere near 07/08 sales.
09 Sales were drastically down on 07. A fraction. Yes, sales have increased and the scheme has boosted sales, but in the current economic conditions, we will get nowhere near 07/08 sales.
Why cut one tax and increase another, on the exact same commodity, I might add?
Because its more transparent, more equitable, easier to change in future and would open up uk markets to irish car dealers0 -
opinion guy wrote: »See figures on increased VAT. I'm getting really tired of repeating myself. Yes there will be a total loss of VRT income on second hand imports ONLY. But as you and other have said thats a small number
Whats the point in changing a whole system, costing the country millions, so that a few thousand peopel that go to the UK to buy their cars can get the cars cheaper?.
If your system for new cars doesnt loose any revenue, how are cars cheaper? Simple maths, car costs €45k now and €40k under your system, then tax take is down.
Plus of course we're now paying more dole to all the people that were put out of business in the initial hit ( I wonder would you be so flippant with the jobs if it was yours you were gambling with) coupled with a further hit in income tax take.
and then theres the increase in fuel duty you mention,which kills the cross border sales we get from the north because of cheaper petrol and kills about 90% of petrol sales in our border counties. Which again not only reduces tax take further, but increases unemployment, income tax take and increases social welfare costs.0 -
opinion guy wrote: »See figures on increased VAT. I'm getting really tired of repeating myself. Yes there will be a total loss of VRT income on second hand imports ONLY. But as you and other have said thats a small number
Yes, but you are then increasing VAT.
Anyway, it ignores my other point. Surely there are better uses of resources than buying new cars. We are in a recession, buying new cars, while increasing tax revenues and giving us a nice feeling, what does it contribute LONG TERM to the economic recovery.
There is a huge opportunity cost foregone here! €20,000 on a new car versus what €20,000 if wisely invested could achieve.
Personally, I think if they cut Employers PRSI by the same cost, it would achieve far more. Hell, it may even mean increased car sales in the long run.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Whats the point in changing a whole system, costing the country millions, so that a few thousand peopel that go to the UK to buy their cars can get the cars cheaper?.
If your system for new cars doesnt loose any revenue, how are cars cheaper? Simple maths, car costs €45k now and €40k under your system, then tax take is down.
Plus of course we're now paying more dole to all the people that were put out of business in the initial hit ( I wonder would you be so flippant with the jobs if it was yours you were gambling with) coupled with a further hit in income tax take.
Ok you are being deliberately obtuse. Yes tax take woudl be somewhat down, but not compeltely. I have already said it would boost the industry. that means create more jobs and profits. You would also scrap the need for VRT office and staff saving the excheqour money. You either don't understand the math and economics i'm talking about, or you are choosing not to understand it. I'm done with this now and I'm done repeating myself.Yes, but you are then increasing VAT.
Anyway, it ignores my other point. Surely there are better uses of resources than buying new cars. We are in a recession, buying new cars, while increasing tax revenues and giving us a nice feeling, what does it contribute LONG TERM to the economic recovery.
There is a huge opportunity cost foregone here! €20,000 on a new car versus what €20,000 if wisely invested could achieve.Personally, I think if they cut Employers PRSI by the same cost, it would achieve far more. Hell, it may even mean increased car sales in the long run.0 -
Whats the point in changing a whole system, costing the country millions, so that a few thousand peopel that go to the UK to buy their cars can get the cars cheaper?.
Are you honestly asking that question, despite contributing over the last 3 or so pages?
The core concept here is that without VRT, Irish dealers can start competing with the prices of UK dealers so that there is no longer any incentive to go to the UK to buy a car... if anything, it could be the other way around if you take the VAT into consideration!
Yes, it's inevitable that there may be some bargains here and there that people will avail of in the UK, the same way as some people from the UK may find a bargain over here (my brother sold an S4 to a guy who drove it back to England via the Ferry not so long ago).Yes, but you are then increasing VAT.
Anyway, it ignores my other point. Surely there are better uses of resources than buying new cars. We are in a recession, buying new cars, while increasing tax revenues and giving us a nice feeling, what does it contribute LONG TERM to the economic recovery.
There is a huge opportunity cost foregone here! €20,000 on a new car versus what €20,000 if wisely invested could achieve.
Personally, I think if they cut Employers PRSI by the same cost, it would achieve far more. Hell, it may even mean increased car sales in the long run.
The whole concept of VRT is to generate money for the country, regardless of their 'green' this and 'green' that bullsh1t.
If you could generate more money for the country, then that's the job done.
If you wanted to make it really simplistic, just increase VAT across the board by about 1%.
Yes, it'd increase everything for nearly everyone, but it'd most likely generate more money for the nation whilst creating a far more competitive market for the motor industry (which could do with a boost) and would also make us more competitve versus the UK's motor industry, meaning less money would leave the country.0 -
opinion guy wrote: »You would also scrap the need for VRT office and staff saving the excheqour money.
No I think we should encourage the customs officials to sit around shopping centre car parks for 6 hours at a time in stalemates with soccer moms who refuse to pay their 1000 odd euro VRT on their Lexus SUV's. :rolleyes:
Would be pretty funny to see the resources (and overtime) involved in all these customs 'operations'.
I've mentioned it before but I'll say it again, I know it's a small number, but the people 'dodging' VRT wouldn't be able to dodge it anymore either. So, more dead money is coming in.
People would also have a little more confidence in our own country and motor industry. We won't feel absolutely robbed stark naked when handing over money for poorly specced cars any longer (if we're getting the same cars cheaper and better spec'd without leaving the country) and we won't feel like vomiting over the counter at some (not all) of the purposely awkward people in the Revenue office as we fork over wads of cash.0 -
opinion guy wrote: »The economy needs people to spend money. People buying cars creates jobs and wealth. There are no wise investments for 20k these days.
Maybe - i haven't thought about it.
Oh agreed. Maybe the solution isn't following the policies of the the bubble years, which I'm sure we all agree, failed.
Not being smart, but maybe you should think about it? Reducing taxes to boost spending got us in this mess.
Rather than reducing taxes to just boost consumer spending on cars, maybe if the resources could be spent on reducing other taxes? Like say, Employers PRSI? Thus, instead of making a car cheaper, we make jobs and employment cheaper?
I do understand why people prefer to think of how to make the car I am going to buy, cheaper, rather than thinking of the long term, altruistic option, which may benefit them far more in the long run.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Rather than reducing taxes to just boost consumer spending on cars, maybe if the resources could be spent on reducing other taxes? Like say, Employers PRSI? Thus, instead of making a car cheaper, we make jobs and employment cheaper?
I do understand why people prefer to think of how to make the car I am going to buy, cheaper, rather than thinking of the long term, altruistic option, which may benefit them far more in the long run.
This is the motors forum - but true, that is a fair point.
K-9, probably the most level-headed ambassador of Donegal over the past week..0 -
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This is the motors forum - but true, that is a fair point.
K-9, probably the most level-headed ambassador of Donegal over the past week..
Anyway, I don't normally frequent these parts. My RSS reader brought me here.
But yes, cutting VRT maybe a false economy! Especially now. Concentrate resources at employment first, then look at expenditure taxes like VRT.
The reason why I mentioned Employers PRSI is it benefits everybody, not just car dealers. The bubble concentrated resources on cutting employees taxes and PRSI, not Employers taxes and PRSI. The resultant savings was then used by employees to buy cars and houses and we all know where that got us.
These proposals are just that in reverse. It does nothing to address employment costs.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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opinion guy wrote: »You seem to be under the illusion that there are hoards of people not paying VRT. There aren't. There are a handful. Most people who importa a car happily pay the VRT because they are STILL saving money.
Try telling that to the people who live in Northern Ireland but have homes out here as well the North and want to drive their cars without paying VRT.
Over 10,000 people on that other facebook page don't want to pay it which is why they want to do away with VRT.0 -
Well that has to be one of the most catastrophic fails i have ever seen on facebook. 3 people are fans...ha ha.......ha
I don't care if there is no fans. I didn't set the page up to try and get as many people as i could to join like the other facebook page, i only set it up so people could have their say if they wanted.
And with a user name with "semtex" in it i'd say your from the North!!0 -
I wish people would stop suggesting the increased fuel tax as a replacement for VRT it would not work. Unfortunately we have a land border with the UK along which I spent most of my life. If petrol prices were increased in the south people simply buy it in the North and when I say people I don't mean people like myself who lived 2 miles from the border. Back in the 90's when there was a dramatic difference in price it wasn't uncommon to see people arrive from as far away as North Dublin to the south Fermanagh areas with large tanks on trailers much as you seen along the border in recent years when the price was cheaper here. All of the southern petrol stations and their associated shops closed down and have only re-opended in the past few years
Also at a time when petrol is at 1.35 a litre raising it further would be madness and immensly unpopular. Increasing fuel always has a knock on effect on goods prices so now instead of VRT, an elective tax, you would now have a negative effect on all regardless if they had a car or not0 -
opinion guy wrote: »Ok you are being deliberately obtuse. Yes tax take woudl be somewhat down, but not compeltely. I have already said it would boost the industry. that means create more jobs and profits. You would also scrap the need for VRT office and staff saving the excheqour money. You either don't understand the math and economics i'm talking about, or you are choosing not to understand it. I'm done with this now and I'm done repeating myself.
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How do you figure it will boost sales? As I already said, people who want cars already buy them. In the case of 2nd hand cars , if they were a bit cheaper peopel would still spend the same money, or maybe less, but get a slightly newer car or maybe a different model. As for new cars, during our best sales years we had a high rate of new car buying , thats not going to go up in any significant numbers. So the simple fact is that more or less the same amount of peole will be buying cars regardless of how much or the price is tax, so if less of the price is tax, less goes to the coffers.
As for less money being spent on public service pay, how many public servants have been let go in recent memory? (we're talking full time staff, not fudging numbers by using external contracts not beign renewed.) public servants dont get sacked, they get redeployed if at all, anyway theres still the paperwork involved in registering the cars, just without the money beign handed over.
So to summarise what will happen under you plan:
More or less the same amount of sale.
Tax take down, when we need it to go way up.
Motor industry jobs lost, meaning more social welfar payments and less income tax paid.
Some other tax raised to compensate (be it fuel taxes, income tax or whatever)
The one plus point is that people who were buying cars anyway get them a bit cheaper.
You can keep saying stuff all you like, it doesnt make it true . The only advantage to your plan is that cars will be a bit cheaper. The negatives far outweigh that one positive and theres no evidence to suggest otherwise.0 -
Oh agreed. Maybe the solution isn't following the policies of the the bubble years, which I'm sure we all agree, failed.
Not being smart, but maybe you should think about it? Reducing taxes to boost spending got us in this mess.
Rather than reducing taxes to just boost consumer spending on cars, maybe if the resources could be spent on reducing other taxes? Like say, Employers PRSI? Thus, instead of making a car cheaper, we make jobs and employment cheaper?
I do understand why people prefer to think of how to make the car I am going to buy, cheaper, rather than thinking of the long term, altruistic option, which may benefit them far more in the long run.
Hmm I wouldn't say lowering taxes led to the financial collapse I'd say lax lending policies and lack of financial regulation did that. Sure reduce employers prsi. Do it as well. I really don't buy your idea that this woudl be a short term option. We are talkign abut opening up markets int he uk whichi would give the irish economy a great boost and create jobs etc.Try telling that to the people who live in Northern Ireland but have homes out here as well the North and want to drive their cars without paying VRT.
Over 10,000 people on that other facebook page don't want to pay it which is why they want to do away with VRT.
Oh jesus would you get over this. THere was ONE story about some crazy soccer mom. There ARE NOT 10,000 people doing this.I wish people would stop suggesting the increased fuel tax as a replacement for VRT it would not work. Unfortunately we have a land border with the UK along which I spent most of my life. If petrol prices were increased in the south people simply buy it in the North and when I say people I don't mean people like myself who lived 2 miles from the border. Back in the 90's when there was a dramatic difference in price it wasn't uncommon to see people arrive from as far away as North Dublin to the south Fermanagh areas with large tanks on trailers much as you seen along the border in recent years when the price was cheaper here. All of the southern petrol stations and their associated shops closed down and have only re-opended in the past few years
Also at a time when petrol is at 1.35 a litre raising it further would be madness and immensly unpopular. Increasing fuel always has a knock on effect on goods prices so now instead of VRT, an elective tax, you would now have a negative effect on all regardless if they had a car or not
Straw man. We have not been said anything about increasing fuel prices that last 5 pages or so. WE have been suggesting increasing VAT on new cars.How do you figure it will boost sales? As I already said, people who want cars already buy them. In the case of 2nd hand cars , if they were a bit cheaper peopel would still spend the same money, or maybe less, but get a slightly newer car or maybe a different model. As for new cars, during our best sales years we had a high rate of new car buying , thats not going to go up in any significant numbers. So the simple fact is that more or less the same amount of peole will be buying cars regardless of how much or the price is tax, so if less of the price is tax, less goes to the coffers.
As for less money being spent on public service pay, how many public servants have been let go in recent memory? (we're talking full time staff, not fudging numbers by using external contracts not beign renewed.) public servants dont get sacked, they get redeployed if at all, anyway theres still the paperwork involved in registering the cars, just without the money beign handed over.
So to summarise what will happen under you plan:
More or less the same amount of sale.
Tax take down, when we need it to go way up.
Motor industry jobs lost, meaning more social welfar payments and less income tax paid.
Some other tax raised to compensate (be it fuel taxes, income tax or whatever)
The one plus point is that people who were buying cars anyway get them a bit cheaper.
You can keep saying stuff all you like, it doesnt make it true . The only advantage to your plan is that cars will be a bit cheaper. The negatives far outweigh that one positive and theres no evidence to suggest otherwise.
For the last time - you could sell your cars to the North and the UK. You would remove the incentive to buy in the uk for irish people. More people would buy here.
Christ the UK/NI is a far bigger market to sell into than here. THis not complicated. To be honest it really seems like you have some vested interest in retainging VRT. Are you a car dealer yourself ?0 -
opinion guy wrote: »
Personally I think they should scrap VRT, differentally adjust VAT on vehicles in accordance with vehicle emmissions bands and make up any shortfall in higher fuel taxes.
Say a base rate VAT for emissions band A of 25%, 27% for B, 30% for C, 35% for D, 40% for E and up.
Simples
It was part of your arguement so I thought I would address it0 -
opinion guy wrote: »For the last time - you could sell your cars to the North and the UK. You would remove the incentive to buy in the uk for irish people. More people would buy here.
Christ the UK/NI is a far bigger market to sell into than here. THis not complicated. To be honest it really seems like you have some vested interest in retainging VRT. Are you a car dealer yourself ?
Do you really think the people on mainland GB could be arsed buying in Ireland to save a few pennies?
It used to be cheaper here to buy cars (and they had the same speedo at the time), but only a few were ever exported as new cars.
It would have to be substatially cheaper in ROI to get the Brits to bother their arses, and the majority of the importers / manufacturer's (who look after UK & Ireland in a lot of cases) just aint going to let that happen.
Now that stupid idea has been blown out of the water, where is this mahoosive increase in sales going to come from? That's the only way your plan is going to work, and it really isn't going to happen.
You also seem to be under the very much misguided impression that dealers make a huge margin on new cars sold :rolleyes:0 -
It was part of your arguement so I thought I would address it
Well then don't do it. Thing is thou prices here are considerably cheaper than the north. you could increase fuel tax a bit without making it more expensive than the north and driving the nothern buyers away. But ultimately if they did what i suggest i don't think they'd need to raise fuel tax as I think between increased VAT take and the boost to the industry with job creation etc you the state would be saving money overall.
Of course there are other waysa to do it. i just picked those numbers out of my arse - was just fluke they happened to work out the way they did. you could reduce VRT to 5% say and reduce those variable VAT band s by 5% across the board as a compromise solution. The point is there are ways to do all this smarter for everyone than the current system. Sticking your heads in the sand and crying doom if they suggest changing anything is not the kind of thing the helps a country trying to beat a recession.0 -
Do you really think the people on mainland GB could be arsed buying in Ireland to save a few pennies?
It used to be cheaper here to buy cars (and they had the same speedo at the time), but only a few were ever exported as new cars.
It would have to be substatially cheaper in ROI to get the Brits to bother their arses, and the majority of the importers / manufacturer's (who look after UK & Ireland in a lot of cases) just aint going to let that happen.
Now that stupid idea has been blown out of the water, where is this mahoosive increase in sales going to come from? That's the only way your plan is going to work, and it really isn't going to happen.
You also seem to be under the very much misguided impression that dealers make a huge margin on new cars sold :rolleyes:
Whoa there boyo. Explain that bit in bold. Ain't going to let that happen ? Isn't there a free market ? Or are you suggesting otherwise ?0 -
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opinion guy wrote: »Well then don't do it. Thing is thou prices here are considerably cheaper than the north. you could increase fuel tax a bit without making it more expensive than the north and driving the nothern buyers away.
Currently theres about 8c difference per litre of petrol. Thats using the price displayed in Strabane last wekend as I drove through. Most of the differrence is due to the weak euro against sterling. The large queues of northern cars at the southern border petrol stations have reduced considerably. The petrol station in Strabane was a lot busier than normal0 -
opinion guy wrote: »Whoa there boyo. Explain that bit in bold. Ain't going to let that happen ? Isn't there a free market ? Or are you suggesting otherwise ?
Quite simple really - it's a free market and the importers are free to set whatever price they want to.
It's my belief (and everybody else who knows anything about this sort of thing), that if VRT is abolished then the Manufacturers / Importers are going to raise their VAT pricing to the same level as the UK to increase their profit margins.
Business is about making as much profit as possible afterall.0 -
Quite simple really - it's a free market and the importers are free to set whatever price they want to.
It's my belief (and everybody else who knows anything about this sort of thing), that if VRT is abolished then the Manufacturers / Importers are going to raise their VAT pricing to the same level as the UK to increase their profit margins.
Business is about making as much profit as possible afterall.
If its a free market the market sets the price.
If you read the last 5 page you'll see we are simply not talkign about scrapping VRT - we are talkign about increasing VAT also. If the manufacturers importers jack there prices up then they would only drive more people abroad to buy.
Besides, why would the importers simply not reverse the direction of their trade and make money that way. The VAT differential would make it attractive.0 -
opinion guy wrote: »If its a free market the market sets the price.
If you read the last 5 page you'll see we are simply not talkign about scrapping VRT - we are talkign about increasing VAT also. If the manufacturers importers jack there prices up then they would only drive more people abroad to buy.
Besides, why would the importers simply not reverse the direction of their trade and make money that way. The VAT differential would make it attractive.
No - if there is higher levels of VAT on cars then it still ends up more expensive to have the car in Ireland because of the higher VAT level. As long as the ex. VAT price is around the same as it is in the UK, it's not going to matter where the car is bought - Ireland or the UK as the "landed" cost is the same because VAT is added wherever the car is registered.
Higher levels of VAT seems to me like a direct replacement of VRT.0 -
No - if there is higher levels of VAT on cars then it still ends up more expensive to have the car in Ireland because of the higher VAT level. As long as the ex. VAT price is around the same as it is in the UK, it's not going to matter where the car is bought - Ireland or the UK as the "landed" cost is the same because VAT is added wherever the car is registered.
Higher levels of VAT seems to me like a direct replacement of VRT.
Go read the math I posted. its still a reduction. Just not a huge one. You buy a new car in the UK you VAT if there. You bring it here you VAT it here and have to clai the UK VAT back. SO it requires significant outlay even if you get some back later. This is a significant deterrrant to buying new in the uk. Buying 'second hand' and VAT doesn't come into it in either country. Uk buyers would like to come here cause the would not have to pay VRT in order to register here before exporting (VRT they can't get back), and end up only paying uk vat at 17.5% saving them money making it worthwhile0 -
opinion guy wrote: »Go read the math I posted. its still a reduction. Just not a huge one. You buy a new car in the UK you VAT if there. You bring it here you VAT it here and have to clai the UK VAT back. SO it requires significant outlay even if you get some back later. This would be a significant deterrrant to buying new in the uk. Buying 'second hand' and VAT doesn't come into it in either country. Uk buyers would like to come here cause the would not have to pay VRT in order to register here before exporting (VRT they can't get back), and end up only paying uk vat at 17.5% saving them money making it worthwhile
UK customers can already come over here and buy cars without having to pay VAT or VRT. Just like Irish customers can buy a new car ex.VAT in the UK if it's for export.
As there will be no registration tax on used vehicles (I presume this is what you are proposing), depreciation will be worse in Ireland as the car costs more new than it does in the UK (including your VAT proposal), but as there is no cost (save a €50 re-reg fee or the like) to register here, a used car is only worth the same as the UK price. It will stop people going to buy in the UK, but it's of no benefit to anyone as the cost to change will increase overall.
Next point you'd like me to shoot down and p1ss all over.............................0 -
UK customers can already come over here and buy cars without having to pay VAT or VRT. Just like Irish customers can buy a new car ex.VAT in the UK if it's for export.As there will be no registration tax on used vehicles (I presume this is what you are proposing), depreciation will be worse in Ireland as the car costs more new than it does in the UK (including your VAT proposal), but as there is no cost (save a €50 re-reg fee or the like) to register here, a used car is only worth the same as the UK price. It will stop people going to buy in the UK, but it's of no benefit to anyone as the cost to change will increase overall.
Again I've done the math TWICE before now showing that the changes I'm proposing DO NOT increase the cost to chage they decrease it.Next point you'd like me to shoot down and p1ss all over.............................
The only thing you've pissed all over is yourself by not reading the math wot shows that you is wrong. Again. READ THE THREAD, DO THE MATH0 -
OK I'm done. I'm getting really fed up with repeating myself over and over and over to people who either havne't read the thread, looked at th esums or just chosen to ignore them.
I expect this thread will roll on thou. Enjoy.0 -
You may as well be done because repeating the same wrong post doesn't make it true.
Right answer this question directly and not any other bits you wantto add.
At the moment a pre tax car is artificially cheaper to buy here because of vrt than in the uk so where are the hoards of uk buyers coming here to buy new cars and taking them home? Under your plan the most likely scenario is that the pre tax price will be brought in to line with the uk so there wouldbe noincentive for anyone in the uk to come here. Plus when your increasedvat is added we're back to higher costing cars than the uk.
So in summary : at the moment it's marginally cheaper for someone in the uk to buy their car here tax free and take it home, but they don't.0 -
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opinion guy wrote: »OK I'm done. I'm getting really fed up with repeating myself over and over and over to people who either havne't read the thread, looked at th esums or just chosen to ignore them.
I expect this thread will roll on thou. Enjoy.
Why the fcuk should I bother looking at the maths of someone who obviously doesn't know anything about the Motor Industry, when I have been doing these sums myself for the last 7 years?
I work in leasing. Simplified that takes what we can buy the car for, less what we can sell if for and you pay the difference over 3 or 4 years. That's essentially the cost to change of ownership for a private individual.
Since the VRT changes in 2008 the monthly costs have increased for ALL vehicles. Even though the price has come down, the difference between purchase price and sale price has increase quite a bit.
Do your figures pulled out of the air say differently? I'd prefer to count on my years of experience rather than someone who's just made stuff up.0
This discussion has been closed.
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