Cronin to Leinster,Keatley and Carr in talks with clubs

ambid

porterbelly wrote: »

If anyone mentions that Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh would be great signings for Connacht again I'll go cracked...
I can't understand some of the greediness of Leinster fans. Suggesting Keogh or Jordi Murphy is poor form. When you consider the options Leinster have when all are fully fit : Heaslip, SOB, Jennings, McLaughlin, D.Ryan, Ruddock, Paul Ryan and the come Keogh and Murphy. 7 good options...
Andrew Conway is wasting his time in Leinster with Carr's arrival. Carr, Nacewa, Luke Fitz and Shaggy are all ahead of him...
At the end of the day, Connacht need to get players who can improve the team and make an impact so that we can improve and get up the table. We aren't going to do that getting academy players like Jordi Murphy or journeymen like Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh. In fairness, Leinster have gotten Cronin and Carr off us, the least we deserve is a few decent players in return.

In fairness Porterbelly, I don't think it's just down to greed.

During the world cup the Leinster back three will likely be Carr, Nacewa, and Conway, with Dave Kearney and Morris in reserve. The others you mentioned (Fitz, Kearney, and Horgan) will be in NZ.

The Leinster back row will likely be Dom Ryan, Jennings, and Ruddock, with Keogh and Paul Ryan in reserve. The others (McLaughlin, Heaslip, O'Brien) will be in NZ.

Next Autumn, Leinster's resources will be stretched as just two teams provide almost the entire Irish international team. To be competitive next Autumn, we need the players you mentioned.

Otherwise I fully agree with you. In a normal year I would like the union to act to make guys like Ruddock and Dave Kearney are available for Connacht if they want to go.

Connacht have proven they can delevop top class players and they do deserve more support than they receive from other provinces for the good of Irish rugby. I can't see it happen next Autumn though.

CatFromHue

stephen keogh does get a lot of stick, he isnt a heaslip or o brien but he does his job well all the same.
against the likes of toulouse last year he may have been out of his depth but so would alot of players.
i felt last year he turned himself around he was drifting the year before but last year he showed his use to the squad and team.

its far too soon for conway to be leaving leinster, his devolopment will be better advanced in leinster than connacht. he is still very very young remember?

if tuitopu and mafi keep getting banned or binned and murphy can stay injury free and get get back to the form he had there will be a place in munster for him. the reason he is a forgotten man is because of his injuries.

i really didnt see a huge number of players going to connacht. if cronin, keatley and carr leave, which elwood pretty much admitted in todays sunday independent i think it was, then there is 3 first team spots available. thats got to be tempting to someone!

Hype710

It makes sense for these guys to move on and wanting to play Heineken Cup, Carr will really shake things up in Leinster and Cronin will provide fantastic depth at hooker, much like the situation at scrum half.

There's no chance Conway will leave as he's Leinster's most prized young asset. You wonder though, will both Dom Ryan and Ruddock both be awarded full contracts next year? If not would someone like Ruddock not be better off at Munster where he'll get far more game time?

We have to realise there's plenty more Keatleys and Carr's out there. Michael Keating could replace Carr as he seems way down the pecking order at Leinster yet is a fantastic prospect, while Niall O' Connor or Ian McKinley would do a more than adequate job for Keatley.

[Jackass]

porterbelly wrote: »

I can't understand some of the greediness of Leinster fans.

Ugh, you see, it is this, that frustrates the hell out of me with Connacht.

I can't understand the sense of entitlement from Connacht fans.

"Hold on, why are Cronin, Keatley and Carr going, we need them, and why are Leinster so greedy, your academy is great, so give us Conway, Rhys Ruddock, Paul O'Donohoe, Eoin O'Malley, Jamie Heaslip and Brian O'Driscoll...."

Factors to consider. Not every Leinster player WANTS to go to Connacht, the grave yard for many Leinster mans career, regardless of game time in blue.

Second of all, Leinster dont JUST compete in the Heineken cup .. a SQUAD needs at least 5 props, 3 hookers, 4 second rows, 6 back rows, 3 scrum halves, 3 out halves, 4 centres and 6 back-3 players - roughly around 34 / 35 players (only 30 at a world cup, but it's trimmed to be the most "elite" only).

Now MOST of a squad is involved in each game, as 23 travel, then there are injuries, which reduce the numbers considerd, and there are international windows to fill, and there are rest periods to fill and, believe it or not, Leinster compete in a "A" competition also...so in reality, not only is the Leinster squad ALL getting continuos rugby (such as captain of the A team, and one injury away from at least being first line cover on bench, Paul O'Donohue), so these players ARE being developed, even at Leinster..

So before knitt-picking apart the "beggars CAN be choosers" Leinster squad, and before accusing Leinster of greed, consider the following:

1/ Leinster need a SQUAD, not 15 players to start.
2/ Leinster don't just play in the Heineken Cup, everyone is getting game time.
3/ Not everyone at Leinster spends there day off at the bus station with packed bags hoping for a call to say they've got the green light to go west...some don't actually want to go and would prefer to bide their time at Leinster, where they are highly sucsessfull at various levels.
4/ Every single player in the Leinster senior squad (al 40 plus of them, 20+ being academy graduates) have a Leinster cap. That means every single one of them was needed at one point.
5/ Some Leinster academy players have approximately 15 Leinster caps, such as Madigan. Ryan not far behind.
6/ One a plaer heads west, he's not branded, many go for a season or two with the intention on coming back to their rightful homes. Be greatful for the lending of talent, not bitter about the leaving of talent.
7/ This isn't a take whoever you want under 25 type arrangement, Connacht is the development provence, and to be fair, should only be given the "not going to make its" from other provences, and not the best young talent in the country like some Connacht fans feel like it should be.
8/ Why on earth would ANY team give away their most promising young talents to a league competitor and risk not getting them back and lose all influence on their development? Be realistic...

I could go on....

porterbelly

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Here is a connacht fan who wants to take players that Connacht have had no hand in developing, and then calls Leinster fans greedy when we suggest they take players we aren't using. :pac:


And if Connacht don't want Stephen Keogh then I'll be delighted to keep him. He was one of our best players at times in the ML last season. He would be a class act for Connacht.

You can hardly say you have developed the players if they've had a couple of years in the Leinster Academy and hung around the 'A' team playing B & I Cup and AIL games. Fionn Carr was developed by Connacht, you didn't even offer him a development contract. Sean Cronin had a couple of years in the Munster Academy and played AIL at Shannon. Connacht brought him on leaps and bounds, gave him games, good coaching etc, and led him to become an international, and Fionn is on the brink, that's what I'd call development. Jamie Hagan the same. When he started at Connacht his scrummaging was poor, look at him now, he's the best Irish scrummaging tighthead in the country behind Mike Ross. That's proper development.

It's a win win situation for Leinster at the end of the day with the likes of Carr. He would be playing AIL rugby now if he didn't join Connacht. We gave him an opportunity in a professional environment, he got plenty of games and has improved four fold. He's now on the verge of an intenational call up. He now can't say no to the lure of his home province which is fair enough, he deserves a crack at the big time. But at the end of the day, Connacht made him what he is today, not Leinster.

The IRFU pay the wages of the players and should look to maximise their resources by encouraging fringe players move to Connacht. They should get improved wages playing regularly rugby at Connacht than playing 'A' rugby in Leinster and maybe then the mindset might change.

thomond2006

Brian Blaney has been at London Irish this season, what about him as a replacement for Cronin?

profitius

Whats the point of Ruddock being a bench warmer for a few years? He should be going to Connacht and the same with any player who'll only get a hand full of games every season.

Three of Munsters best prospects, Butler, Nagle and Murray should go there I think. It would speed up their development a lot. Munster might need them for a few matches per season but theres other academy players to fill in when needed for a game or two.

irishbucsfan

porterbelly wrote: »

You can hardly say you have developed the players if they've had a couple of years in the Leinster Academy and hung around the 'A' team playing B & I Cup and AIL games. Fionn Carr was developed by Connacht, you didn't even offer him a development contract. Sean Cronin had a couple of years in the Munster Academy and played AIL at Shannon. Connacht brought him on leaps and bounds, gave him games, good coaching etc, and led him to become an international, and Fionn is on the brink, that's what I'd call development. Jamie Hagan the same. When he started at Connacht his scrummaging was poor, look at him now, he's the best Irish scrummaging tighthead in the country behind Mike Ross. That's proper development.

Fionn Carr was not "developed" by Connacht. He grew up in Leinster playing for Naas rugby club, who are funded by Leinster, then playing in the Leinster Schools Cup, and then learning at the Leinster Academy where he was very impressive. So that is 10 years of development that he had in Leinster rugby.

He has had a few years at Connacht, but he is a Leinster product.

Jamie Hagan was highly rated as a good scrummager when he was at Leinster, and even played for the senior team, he certainly didn't just learn that when he arrived in Connacht.

It's a win win situation for Leinster at the end of the day with the likes of Carr. He would be playing AIL rugby now if he didn't join Connacht. We gave him an opportunity in a professional environment, he got plenty of games and has improved four fold. He's now on the verge of an intenational call up. He now can't say no to the lure of his home province which is fair enough, he deserves a crack at the big time. But at the end of the day, Connacht made him what he is today, not Leinster.

The IRFU pay the wages of the players and should look to maximise their resources by encouraging fringe players move to Connacht. They should get improved wages playing regularly rugby at Connacht than playing 'A' rugby in Leinster and maybe then the mindset might change.

This is true, and Connacht offer a great service to the players that Leinster/Munster can't accomodate. But Connacht should certainly not feel entitled to just take any Leinster player they want, and if they have the chance of taking a player like Keogh they should be delighted to have that opportunity.

I really don't think most young contracted Leinster players would want to go to Connacht anyway, while they're watching their fellow young players like Dom Ryan playing H Cup rugby.

porterbelly

Keogh doesn't fall into the category of potential Irish international, which was what the criteria set out by the IRFU for players from other provinces moving to Connacht. If we were to go down the route of signing, seasoned Irish players, I'd be pretty sure Damien Browne the Brive 2nd row, would be 1st on our list, and certainly be ahead of Trevor Hogan. Browne is a Galway man and brother of current Connacht player Andrew Browne, and has a wealth of experience from playing with Northampton in the Guinness Premiership and Brive in the Top 14.

We do need 2/3 experienced heads to supplement the young talent coming in, George Naoupu and Damien Browne would be 2 welcome additions.

Hagan and Carr were very raw players when they arrived at Connacht , and alot of time and effort was put into them. They were in a professional environment, got specialist coaching, and got competitve game time, which they couldn't have got in the Leinster Academy or with their respective clubs. Their improvement has been massive and they're knocking on the door of the Irish squad. To me that constitutes real development and I think Connacht deserve huge recognition for this and they have played the primary role in the development of these players.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Connacht need to start developing their own players.

I find it hilarious that Connacht fans are in uproar when players who went to Connacht to get game time decide to leave. The only reason these quality players went there is to get noticed. Connacht should be happy that they get to have future internationals in their team for a couple of seasons, rather than begrudging these players for wanting to leave when they have achieved everything they can.

Its like the Ireland A management going into uproar when their players are called up to the full international team. :rolleyes:

Morf

porterbelly wrote: »

Hagan and Carr were very raw players when they arrived at Connacht , and alot of time and effort was put into them. They were in a professional environment, got specialist coaching, and got competitve game time, which they couldn't have got in the Leinster Academy or with their respective clubs. Their improvement has been massive and they're knocking on the door of the Irish squad. To me that constitutes real development and I think Connacht deserve huge recognition for this and they have played the primary role in the development of these players.

Do you imagine they wouldn't have gotten this at other provinces? With arguably better set-ups/coaches and facilities?

porterbelly

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Connacht need to start developing their own players.

I find it hilarious that Connacht fans are in uproar when players who went to Connacht to get game time decide to leave. The only reason these quality players went there is to get noticed. Connacht should be happy that they get to have future internationals in their team for a couple of seasons, rather than begrudging these players for wanting to leave when they have achieved everything they can.

Its like the Ireland A management going into uproar when their players are called up to the full international team. :rolleyes:

We haven't the resources that the other provinces have. Money was not pumped into developing club and schools rugby over the years like in Munster and Leinster and we haven't the academy system that other provinces have. That being said we have produced alot of good players over the years like current players John Muldoon, Gavin Duffy, Johnny O'Connor and others such as Eoin Reddan, Eric Elwood, Bernard Jackman, Jerry Flannery,Ciaran Fitzgerald. We have a few good lads coming through at the minute, namely Eoiin Griffin, Irish u20 outside centre in the world cup, Eoin Mckeown, current Irish u20 as well as current underage internationals Aaron Conneely and Tiernan O'Halloran.

We have produced gems over the years, but the reality is we haven't the resources to be producing volumes of players year on year. Connacht rugby was always neglected from the bottom up and that's why we've always had to look to the other provinces for cast offs, or wen they're not forthcoming, bring in average NIQ's.

Cpt_Blackbeard

porterbelly wrote: »

We haven't the resources that the other provinces have. Money was not pumped into developing club and schools rugby over the years like in Munster and Leinster and we haven't the academy system that other provinces have. That being said we have produced alot of good players over the years like current players John Muldoon, Gavin Duffy, Johnny O'Connor and others such as Eoin Reddan, Eric Elwood, Bernard Jackman, Jerry Flannery,Ciaran Fitzgerald. We have a few good lads coming through at the minute, namely Eoiin Griffin, Irish u20 outside centre in the world cup, Eoin Mckeown, current Irish u20 as well as current underage internationals Aaron Conneely and Tiernan O'Halloran.

We have produced gems over the years, but the reality is we haven't the resources to be producing volumes of players year on year. Connacht rugby was always neglected from the bottom up and that's why we've always had to look to the other provinces for cast offs, or wen they're not forthcoming, bring in average NIQ's.

Ye don't have the players because the interest in rugby isn't there, or wasn't until Munster won the HC and everyone then got into the sport. If the other provinces poach the young players that ye bring through then ye are allowed be upset about it, but haven't brought through any players of note besides Muldoon in recent memory. Flannery and Reddan both left Munster to get gametime much like Carr, Keatley and Cronin did.

I'm not sure if schools rugby has much to do with funding, but I'm probably wrong about that. Not as much money has been invested in the Connacht academy because the playing population isn't there.

Otacon

Well, screw Keatley and Carr, I want Hagan.

porterbelly

Morf wrote: »

Do you imagine they wouldn't have gotten this at other provinces? With arguably better set-ups/coaches and facilities?

But they didn't get the opportunity off anyone else. We gave them their chance, and fair play to them, they have thrived. But they wouldn't be where they are today if we didn't give them an offer.

[Jackass]

Otacon wrote: »

Well, screw Keatley and Carr, I want Hagan.

I really hope he's the next one to come home. I can live with losing Keatley at this point IF we hold onto Madigan and McKinley as second and thrid choices (Berne's contract is up at the end of this season I believe, and I'd be surprised if we held onto him for more than one more season, if at all).

Hagan is a fine player, and I'd take Hagan back in a heartbeat and promote Maguire to the senior squad also.

We need to get rid of all these random tight heads in our squad, and have our options at 3 as Ross, Wright, Hagan & Maguire.

Lose head options Healy, VDM, Wright & McGrath.

Hooker options Strauss, Cronin (two best hookers in the country), and Harris-Wright.

That's 10 players as front row options, with only 2 foreigners. (including Strauss as Irish :pac:). It's a long time since Leinster produced 8 quality front row players. - well...only 5 are from the academy, but still....

Stan will be near impossible to replace and is THE most important front row player at Leinster.

danthefan

This thread has really opened my eyes.

Seems Leinster's primary purpose should be to donate players to other provinces. All we need is one player in each postition, give the rest away. Doesn't even matter whether they want to go or not.

porterbelly

danthefan wrote: »

This thread has really opened my eyes.

Seems Leinster's primary purpose should be to donate players to other provinces. All we need is one player in each postition, give the rest away. Doesn't even matter whether they want to go or not.

Come off it, you have a squad of 43 players, not including the senior academy that includes Dominic Ryan, Ian Madigan, Eamon Sheridan and them 2 ferocious u20 Irish props from last year Maguire and O'Connell.

Connacht have a squad of 30 give or take. We have 2 fit back row forwards for the visit of Munster on Stephens Day and the match with yourselves on New years Day with O'Connor, Muldoon, Ofisa and Taylor all out, so there's a bit of perspective. Come back to me when you have that problem. Michael Swift our 33 year old lock forward had played every minute of every competitive game this season up until he had to go off injured at half time against Quins on Friday night. We haven't the luxury of rotation.

Munster and Leinster could easily be relieved of 4/5 players and it won't have the slightest effect on them and it would benefit Connacht greatly and Irish rugby as a whole as it gives lads who rarely get the chance, the opportunity to showcase their talents. The IRFU pay the wages so it would be a much better use of resources and it wouldn't hinder Munster or Leinster one bit. And it would lead to the situation a couple of years down the line where these lads have gone off to Connacht want to come back to their parent province, but they're no longer a raw, inexperienced player, but the finished article.

danthefan

porterbelly wrote: »

Come off it, you have a squad of 43 players, not including the senior academy that includes Dominic Ryan, Ian Madigan, Eamon Sheridan and them 2 ferocious u20 Irish props from last year Maguire and O'Connell.

Connacht have a squad of 30 give or take. We have 2 fit back row forwards for the visit of Munster on Stephens Day and the match with yourselves on New years Day with O'Connor, Muldoon, Ofisa and Taylor all out, so there's a bit of perspective. Come back to me when you have that problem. Michael Swift our 33 year old lock forward had played every minute of every competitive game this season up until he had to go off injured at half time against Quins on Friday night. We haven't the luxury of rotation.

Munster and Leinster could easily be relieved of 4/5 players and it won't have the slightest effect on them and it would benefit Connacht greatly and Irish rugby as a whole as it gives lads who rarely get the chance, the opportunity to showcase their talents. The IRFU pay the wages so it would be a much better use of resources and it wouldn't hinder Munster or Leinster one bit. And it would lead to the situation a couple of years down the line where these lads have gone off to Connacht want to come back to their parent province, but they're no longer a raw, inexperienced player, but the finished article.

So you have 6 senior backrows in your squad?

That's actually one more than Leinster.

crisco10

danthefan wrote: »

So you have 6 senior backrows in your squad?

That's actually one more than Leinster.

not to be a pedant but i count 6. Jennings, Jamie, Sean, Kev, Keogh and Ruddock.

Now that I see his name. What about Keogh to Connacht? Solid, senior experienced back rower. not going to set the world alight but will do a mighty fine job for you.

danthefan

crisco10 wrote: »

not to be a pedant but i count 6. Jennings, Jamie, Sean, Kev, Keogh and Ruddock.

Ruddock is academy/development, so is Ryan.

[Jackass]

Connacht have an injury crisis in the back-row, clearly the other provinces fault, send them Ferris, O'Brien & Coughlin ASAP.

crisco10

crisco10 wrote: »

not to be a pedant but i count 6. Jennings, Jamie, Sean, Kev, Keogh and Ruddock.

Now that I see his name. What about Keogh to Connacht? Solid, senior experienced back rower. not going to set the world alight but will do a mighty fine job for you.

Really think Keogh to Connacht would be a good move for both of them. He was an essential ML player last year, really stepped up when needed.

But surplus to requirements at this stage I feel.

Cpt_Blackbeard

[Jackass] wrote: »

Hooker options Strauss, Cronin (two best hookers in the country), and Harris-Wright.

I'd personally have Varley ahead of the both of them in current form and we can't forget about Fla. Strauss is a bit too slight for my liking and I wouldn't pick him for Ireland as long as there are viable alternatives.

Now I think its time for me to run away before the mods come looking for the guy who compared Munster and Leinster players. :P

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd personally have Varley ahead of the both of them in current form and we can't forget about Fla. Strauss is a bit too slight for my liking and I wouldn't pick him for Ireland as long as there are viable alternatives.

Now I think its time for me to run away before the mods come looking for the guy who compared Munster and Leinster players. :P

You'd also give Barry Murphy 30+ Ireland caps though to be fair.

These threads make for excellent indicators as to who should be on your ignore list.

[Jackass]

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd personally have Varley ahead of the both of them in current form and we can't forget about Fla. Strauss is a bit too slight for my liking and I wouldn't pick him for Ireland as long as there are viable alternatives.

Now I think its time for me to run away before the mods come looking for the guy who compared Munster and Leinster players. :P

Fair enough on your opinion, but I'd strongly disagree.

Varley's set piece is weak and Flannery is extremely injury prone is very old.

Strauss is young and excellent in the loose, but is also the best hooker in Ireland at the breakdown by a country mile. (in my opinion).

I'd have the two of them as the best in Ireland at the moment. I think Best's form has dipped a lot over the last year and consider Varley a good player, but not as good as Cronin or Strauss.

Cronin still has a bit to learn, but is a very good prospect. Not as near the finished article as many posters make out though. (I'd imagine that will decline now that he's a Leinster man though )

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

You'd also give Barry Murphy 30+ Ireland caps though to be fair.

If he has lived up to his promise he could have been there abouts. BOD would be still around for the next WC if there was another 13 around who was capable of filling in for him when he was tired or injured. BOD has ~15 caps he wouldn't have if he wasn't played when not fit.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with the Hookers, its just an attempt at backing up your non-arguement. If you ahve watched any of Munster's games this season, you'd know that Varley has been the inform player along with Coughlan and MOD. But I guess they are all of ML standard :rolleyes:

Varley is currently ahead of Cronin in my books, there is no provincial bias as they are both from Munster and Limerick. Cronin has the potential to be better than Varley,but he isn't there yet.

If you had read this thread you'd see that I want Cronin to come home to Munster, I don't want Munster to have to play against him.

On Topic.
Keatley has all the attributes of a good player but is year or two away from making it. Losing Warwick just so we get Keatley is total BS imo. I'd safely say that its all Kidney's plans for developing the national team.

danthefan

Well MOD, Coughlan and Varley getting an extended run in the team has coincided with Munster seriously struggling to make it out of the pool for the first time in about 10 years so maybe you're right, they are just ML standard. Hadn't thought about it like that myself but you make a good point.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

Well MOD, Coughlan and Varley getting an extended run in the team has coincided with Munster seriously struggling to make it out of the pool for the first time in about 10 years so maybe you're right, they are just ML standard. Hadn't thought about it like that myself but you make a good point.

:rolleyes: