Mother died of hypothermia after council turned heat off

dublin99

snyper wrote: »

Aye.

To me this story reads that she was in an apt in a building the council want to vacate, and she wont move else where, i guarentee she was given plenty of notice, but because the apts are centrally heated as bambi said, they have to probably heat 10 of them to heat hers as well.

She probably was afraid the council would move in if she moved for the cold snap.

Either way, kids without a mother is sad, but there is more to this story than the headline suggests

For your information re your "guarentee" , Rachel Peavoy had applied to be rehoused by the council in more suitable accomodation but was still waiting in a queue in the system as her case was not of priority. I assure you she would have moved in a flash if offered alternative accomodation appropriate for her and her beloved boys.

SEPT 23 1989

The council have a hell of a lot to answer for in this case:mad:

R.I.P Rachel

phasers

The Ballymun flats are not fit for habitation imo, and the council behaved appallingly by refusing to turn on the heating for the people that still live there. I can't believe that people are blaming anybody except the council. What any of your friends friends friends brothers did is irrelevant. A woman died because the council wanted to save a few quid.

She'd been on to them, she'd been on to her local TD, she made sure her kids were warm. What else could she have done?

The flats are draughty as fcuk. Any heat generated by stuff like the oven being on, little electric radiators or whatever else people are suggesting here would leak out through the windows and floorboards. Hypothermia is a strange condition and a lot of people obviously don't understand how it manifests itself.

Voodu Child

Not being smart but my gut instinct says that alcohol and/or drugs was a factor.

Alcohol masks the feeling of being cold, and makes you lose core heat faster by dilating the blood vessels in your extremities. It also inhibits the shiver reflex which tries to keep you warm by burning energy. And if you have consumed so much alcohol or drugs that you're unconcious then you're a goner.

It happens regularly in colder countries, where drunks fall asleep on benches and die from the cold.

Genuinely I don't see how else a young healthy person can die of hypothermia indoors in Ireland, even during that cold spell. A sober person would be aware that they were freezing to death and survival instinct should kick in.

itac

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I think people have a vague understanding of hypothermia given some of the comments in here.

+1

I've had hypothermia twice, once as a teenager on camping trip, and last January. Both times it was recognised in me by others, I had no idea what was going, other than that I felt roasty toasty and wanted a snooze...

Living in a house without heating for a short while is cold enough, but a high rise building that's not been heated for a long time will hold the cold even more, so it could've easily been warmer outside than inside when this happened.

If her home had been continously cold for a certain amount of time, it's quite possible she herself became kind of acclimatised to that, and figured that this time when she felt freezing cold was much like every other time, and that she'd sleep through it

Either way, whoever made the decision to keep the heating off; if they have any sort of a conscience, is now going to be serving their own life sentence knowing that the decision they made has killed someone. Dunno about manslaughter charges, but there certainly should be some onus on the council to provide some sort of heat if they decide to turn it off for their own sake as opposed to their tenants.

r.i.p.

ebixa82

Voodu Child wrote: »

Not being smart but my gut instinct says that alcohol and/or drugs was a factor.

Alcohol masks the feeling of being cold, and makes you lose core heat faster by dilating the blood vessels in your extremities. It also inhibits the shiver reflex which tries to keep you warm by burning energy. And if you have consumed so much alcohol or drugs that you're unconcious then you're a goner.

It happens regularly in colder countries, where drunks fall asleep on benches and die from the cold.

Genuinely I don't see how else a young healthy person can die of hypothermia indoors in Ireland, even during that cold spell. A sober person would be aware that they were freezing to death and survival instinct should kick in.

Totaly agree. I would be very surprised if alcohol or drugs did not play a part. She was a mother but also a daughter. I'm sure her mother had an idea of the conditions in her flat, why didn't she take her own daughter in as well as her grandchildren? I'm sure room could have been made temporarily somehow.

People talking about manslaughter is just ill informed, sensationalistic bullsh.it!

dublin99

Voodu Child wrote: »

Not being smart but my gut instinct says that alcohol and/or drugs was a factor.

Alcohol masks the feeling of being cold, and makes you lose core heat faster by dilating the blood vessels in your extremities. It also inhibits the shiver reflex which tries to keep you warm by burning energy. And if you have consumed so much alcohol or drugs that you're unconcious then you're a goner.

It happens regularly in colder countries, where drunks fall asleep on benches and die from the cold.

Genuinely I don't see how else a young healthy person can die of hypothermia indoors in Ireland, even during that cold spell. A sober person would be aware that they were freezing to death and survival instinct should kick in.

Well your gut feelings are wrong. Rachel did not drink, smoke or take drugs. There was a post mortem. She died of hypothermia according to the pathologist. The report would have said otherwise if there was alcohol/ drug /overdose in her body that would have contributed to her death. The whole point about hypothermia is that you dont realise it, sober or not, as it serts in and become groggy and unconcious.

It is ironic that private tenants are protected by the law and the PRTB and landlords have to provide minimum standard accomodation with heating etc. The Dublin City Council acts above the law and put tenants in sub zero flats because thay are not legally required to provide a minimum standard of accomodation. If Rachel hadn't died in January 2010, would more council tenants have been frozen to death in the longer cold snap in December 2010????

ejmaztec

phasers wrote: »

The Ballymun flats are not fit for habitation imo, and the council behaved appallingly by refusing to turn on the heating for the people that still live there. I can't believe that people are blaming anybody except the council. What any of your friends friends friends brothers did is irrelevant. A woman died because the council wanted to save a few quid.

She'd been on to them, she'd been on to her local TD, she made sure her kids were warm. What else could she have done?

The flats are draughty as fcuk. Any heat generated by stuff like the oven being on, little electric radiators or whatever else people are suggesting here would leak out through the windows and floorboards. Hypothermia is a strange condition and a lot of people obviously don't understand how it manifests itself.

I'm not exactly a charitable individual, but even I can't believe some of the crap that some people have posted on this thread.

They must be sitting in their "snuggles", drinking cocoa with the heating turned up, and posting bollocks on the internet.

Spudmonkey

Something very suspicious about this case.

stovelid

Caoimhín wrote: »

Would it be cold hearted to suggest that if she had no obvious physical or psychological problems, why is it societies responsibility to keep her warm?

To some people (including me) it would seem excessively so, even if you are "correct" in your assumption.

Gummy Panda

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'm not exactly a charitable individual, but even I can't believe some of the crap that some people have posted on this thread.

They must be sitting in their "snuggles", drinking cocoa with the heating turned up, and posting bollocks on the internet.

I know. I'm surprised at some of the accusations from people here.

UDAWINNER

some of the comments have been disgraceful. a womans dead ffs

orourkeda

A crushing indictment of the country we now live in.

Spudmonkey

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I know. I'm surprised at some of the accusations from people here.

On both sides of the argument. We have those baying for people to be charged with manslaughter even though the woman was informed she wasn't going to have the heat turned back on.

It's not like the heating was turned off in the middle of the night without her knowing.

miss no stars

Voodu Child wrote: »

Not being smart but my gut instinct says that alcohol and/or drugs was a factor.

Alcohol masks the feeling of being cold, and makes you lose core heat faster by dilating the blood vessels in your extremities. It also inhibits the shiver reflex which tries to keep you warm by burning energy.

Guess what also does that? Hypothermia!

Speaking from experience, you get kinda cold, but it doesn't feel any different to any normal coldness. You're also a bit lethargic and moving consumes so much more effort than normal. Moreso than in normal "I'm cold" because this time your entire core is too cold. So you don't move, you figure you'll heat up soon and you'll be ok. The colder you get, the less you notice the cold. You start to feel better, warmer than before and critically, you get a bit aggressive about not needing help. She had the sense to move her kids out but didn't seem to see the dire need to herself. That absolutely screams of hypothermia induced distorted thinking. I've had hypothermia before and was point blank trying to refuse treatment. I thought I was fine. I did not feel cold. This point is critical. I DID NOT FEEL COLD but my core temperature was below 33 celcius. Thankfully people around me noticed the hypothermia and forced treatment on me.

This was a very slight looking girl from the photo, not a lot of protection against the cold. She doesn't seem to have had a proper chance to warm up at all, just got colder and colder. It was hypothermia quite clearly that killed her; not alcohol, drugs or whatever. She got COLD. and yep, the council were to blame. Wouldn't move her out to somewhere else and wouldn't turn on the heat either.

itac wrote: »

+1

I've had hypothermia twice, once as a teenager on camping trip, and last January. Both times it was recognised in me by others, I had no idea what was going, other than that I felt roasty toasty and wanted a snooze...

Likewise. I was wandering around in a lovely haze and just wanted to be left to my own devices. It's VERY difficult to recognise in yourself, it really does take there being someone around you to notice it.

All the people on here saying it couldn't be hypothermia obviously haven't had hypothermia, otherwise they'd understand immediately how a healty, fit young person can die of hypothermia.

Cheap Thrills!

Spudmonkey wrote: »

On both sides of the argument. We have those baying for people to be charged with manslaughter even though the woman was informed she wasn't going to have the heat turned back on.

It's not like the heating was turned off in the middle of the night without her knowing.

Yes, but it was her home.....maybe her Mother didn't have room for her or maybe she just wanted a quiet night in to herself.....

She did nothing wrong. She's dead, she died of hypothermia.

It's absolutely shameful.

Spudmonkey

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Yes, but it was her home.....maybe her Mother didn't have room for her or maybe she just wanted a quiet night in to herself.....

She did nothing wrong. She's dead, she died of hypothermia.

It's absolutely shameful.

Yes but which she wasn't able to heat. From the report it has been said that she was informed of the fact that the heating was not going to be turned on. That implies she ultimately made the call (bad as it may have been) to stay in that apartment in those temperatures.

A tragic accident perhaps but I fail to see how it was the fault of the council. Maybe there are more details to the case but that is how I see it from the report.

Dudess

"Manslaughter" ffs - even a horrible tragedy like this is used as an excuse for public sector bashing. That said, I temped in Housing for a bit as an office lackey, and no doubt about it, there were some officials all right who were very jaded and indifferent - but I know a guy who has mental health issues and a drug addiction and his parents were worried he wasn't warm enough and asked the council to check up on him, which it duly did. It's not completely staffed by callous bastards. This reminds me of those horrible cases of child abuse leading to the child's death, and the social workers getting the blame - I totally agree there are box-ticking bureaucrats, but it's all too easy to assume they're all the same.

Some horrible "Meh, she knew what she was doing stuff" here. I love the "She could have gone to McDonalds for a cup of tea" stuff. Yes, because that's what we all do when we're not warm enough in bed...

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

tasha200 wrote: »

ok, no I am sorry, and I am not looking for thanks.....
This mother preserved her two children, who did not die of hyperthermia.. there is something unusual about this story or something that is not being told.. on the same night this mother died there were many many people sleeping on the streets or in and about homeless hostels in ballymun... on the same night there were people in galway, limerick, etc etc.. who have no shelter/heating/home etc....... there is something in this story not being told...

By your logic, it's unusual for people to survive a car/plane crash or a sinking ship. They should all survive or die, if only half die, then there's something very suspicious going on... :rolleyes:

yes, the weather was unprecedented, but, in my opinion, for a 30 year old adult human being to die of hypothermia, only due to her heating being cut off, does not ring true..........

Maybe you could let us know the true story then? Since you seem to know what happened?

one, we all have self preservation in normal state of mind, therefore we would use any means possible to cover ourselves and retain heat... two, her children were with the mother, why wasnt said woman with her mother, three, even with electricity,

You don't understand what happened, do you?

I had no electricity for over 20 hours over the christmas period, not because i didnt pay the bill, but because of a cut in the supply..... neither me, my partner, or my three children died of hypothermia,

I guess if you can survive a whopping 20 hours without electricity, then everybody can survive it. Your logic is laughable.

noe did the 20 or so estimated homeless people on the streets........ I am in no way trivialising this womans death, but ofcourse there is more to this than a healthy woman, with two children, dying overnight, in shelter, from hypothermia, before people demand trial for manslaughter x

Do you live under a rock? 20 homeless people? What?

Since you know there is more to this, why don't you let us know?

Naikon wrote: »

Sounds fishy. It's not the antartic we're living. While I accept it's possible someone can die from hypothermia, something else must have been a contributing factor here.

News flash. You don't have to be in the antartic to die from hypothermia...

Gulliver wrote: »

Whilst I have sympathy for the woman and her family, there is something off here. She just gave up. I see this a lot with people these days - they would rather sit and complain about the situation and wait for someone else to fix it than use their own initiative to achieve a temporary solution in the meantime.

Also, if there was no room, why not just sleep on the floor in the mother's place? Even in the hall?

You haven't actually read the article, have you?

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This all seems very fishy.

This woman was either a willing victim of our culture of helplessness or she was trying to kill herself.

Lol... "Today I am going to comit suicide by hypothermia... yea... somehow I doubt it.

No one stays in their house during an unprecendented cold-snap after being told beforehand that the heating will be off. Her ditching the kids is odd as well.

You're right, they normally go outside and wander around in the bad weather... :rolleyes:

Caoimhín wrote: »

Would it be cold hearted to suggest that if she had no obvious physical or psychological problems, why is it societies responsibility to keep her warm?

It's not. Nobdoy suggested it was. It's a basic human need. It's fundamental to ones survival. She tried to get help but that fell on deaf ears.

Caoimhín wrote: »

It is indeed a tragedy, nobody is suggesting otherwise. I reacted to the daft comments that others should be found guilty of manslaughter.

I am of the opinion that the old, the sick or the vulnerable in our society should be helped. I suppose where we might disagree is on exactly who in our society is weaker and to what extent they should be helped.

Turning off somebodies heating, knowing that the weather is extremely bad should not go unpunished.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Well "people" didn't die, a person died. Also the times we're in didn't cause the unprecedented cold weather.

There's more to this story than what's been published so far.

Tell us it then

ebixa82 wrote: »

Totaly agree. I would be very surprised if alcohol or drugs did not play a part. She was a mother but also a daughter. I'm sure her mother had an idea of the conditions in her flat, why didn't she take her own daughter in as well as her grandchildren? I'm sure room could have been made temporarily somehow.

People talking about manslaughter is just ill informed, sensationalistic bullsh.it!

You'd be surprised? Why? She's from ballymun, must be an alcho or junkie... :rolleyes:

Are you sure her mother knew of her daughters conditions? How sure are you? And how do you know this?

Dudess wrote: »

"Manslaughter" ffs - even a horrible tragedy like this is used as an excuse for public sector bashing. That said, I temped in Housing for a bit as an office lackey, and no doubt about it, there were some officials all right who were very jaded and indifferent - but I know a guy who has mental health issues and a drug addiction and his parents were worried he wasn't warm enough and asked the council to check up on him, which it duly did. It's not completely staffed by callous bastards. This reminds me of those horrible cases of child abuse leading to the child's death, and the social workers getting the blame - I totally agree there are box-ticking bureaucrats, but it's all too easy to assume they're all the same.

Some horrible "Meh, she knew what she was doing stuff" here. I love the "She could have gone to McDonalds for a cup of tea" stuff. Yes, because that's what we all do when we're not warm enough in bed...

You would have to be pretty stupid (the council I am talking about) to turn off somebodies heating, in January, during a cold snap which we are not used to, and think that the people in the house you refuse to supply heat to, will be ok.

It's wreckless, negligent and shameful on the part of the scum that made this decision. Yes, manslaughter would be appropiate charge.

Debthree

tasha200 wrote: »

I had no electricity for over 20 hours over the christmas period, not because i didnt pay the bill, but because of a cut in the supply..... neither me, my partner, or my three children died of hypothermia,

That's in no way comparable to going without heating for weeks on end. 20 hours will make very little actual difference to a house. Yes you'll feel cold but the house still has the benefit of weeks and months of previous good temperatures. Go for weeks without heating and you'll feel the damp coming through the walls and it will hurt to walk in bare feet the floors will be so icy cold. We went a few weeks last year without our central heating - I thought eventually one of us would end up in hospital it was so freaking unbearable despite all the blankets we could gather, hot water bottles etc. When we got it fixed we had to leave it on for nearly 24 hours straight to take the icy chill and damp out of the air. Modern houses in particular are built with central heating in mind so are therefore not constructed to be able to withstand long periods without heating.

Debthree

Caoimhín wrote: »

Well what would you suggest then? Maybe employ a public servant of sorts to visit peoples house every night to make sure they are warm and have enough milk and bread?

Maybe not turn off her heating during the coldest winter on record in almost 50 years?

Dudess

Jasiah Rapid Trauma wrote: »

You would have to be pretty stupid (the council I am talking about) to turn off somebodies heating, in January, during a cold snap which we are not used to, and think that the people in the house you refuse to supply heat to, will be ok.

It's wreckless, negligent and shameful on the part of the scum that made this decision. Yes, manslaughter would be appropiate charge.

Yeah but was it as straightforward as the council just deciding to switch off the heating? I'm absolutely not apportioning blame to the woman, but I'd like to think there was less callousness on the council's part.

BostonB

Debthree wrote: »

Maybe not turn off her heating during the coldest winter on record in almost 50 years?

Did they turn if off?

... after Dublin City Council refused to fix the heating in her property...

the doctor representing has called for an independent inquiry to her death, after the inquest heard that her heating had stopped working, and the Council refused to restore it – saying a number of flats nearby were empty, and there was ongoing building work in adjacent units.
Rachel and her family had written to her local TD, former housing minister Noel Ahern, trying to get the heating fixed – but to no avail, leaving the flat “perilously cold” during the snowy snap of January 2010.

You can't believe the press. They mis report all the time.

http://www.thejournal.ie/woman-died-of-hypothermia-in-flat-after-council-refused-to-fix-heating-2011-01/

Gummy Panda

AFAIK all the flat blocks were heated from a boiler-house on the ballymun road. Now each individual block is heated by its own mini boiler located near the block, that were installed within the last year.

Maybe the planned installation of these lead to the heating problem or they could have been implemented after this incident.

Cheap Thrills!

From what I can gather the council were reluctant to turn on the heating as several of the units were empty. I'm getting the impression, they (council/corpo) could only heat either all or none of the flats. It seems so, to have been a cost saving move.

It wasn't the Ballymun high rise tower as I thought earlier but other lower rise ones in this pic/article, they look about 8 stories high and have single glazed old windows.

http://www.thejournal.ie/woman-died-of-hypothermia-in-flat-after-council-refused-to-fix-heating-2011-01/

She went to the Doctor on 15th Dec (the month before her death) to try to get a letter for heating costs, so it looks like she was trying her best to do something about it.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/froze-to-death-in-flat-143613.html

phasers

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Yes but which she wasn't able to heat. From the report it has been said that she was informed of the fact that the heating was not going to be turned on. That implies she ultimately made the call (bad as it may have been) to stay in that apartment in those temperatures.

A tragic accident perhaps but I fail to see how it was the fault of the council. Maybe there are more details to the case but that is how I see it from the report.

Because they turned off her heating, in sub zero temperatures, for no reason other than to save money. That's their fault.

If she had heating in her home, she wouldn't have died. It's simple enough.

anewme

It said in the article that the lady in question had a borderline personality disorder, so perhaps she was not coping very well in general. We are all different people and cope differently with what life throws at you. She might not have realised that she should either go to her mothers, or sit in McDonalds or whatever people are suggesting. It also said she had contacted the council about the problem and was on housing lists, etc, so was TRYING to get herself out of her predicament.

Why are people living in half empty blocks of run down flats anyway when there are loads of empty nama apartments falling to ruin around us.

I am actually shocked at the lack of sympathy towards Rachel's plight.

I find it shocking and heartbreaking that someone could die of cold in Dublin in the year 2010.

Spudmonkey

phasers wrote: »

Because they turned off her heating, in sub zero temperatures, for no reason other than to save money. That's their fault.

If she had heating in her home, she wouldn't have died. It's simple enough.

She took it upon herself to stay in that apartment in sub zero temperatures knowing full well what temperatures were like at that time of the year. That's her fault.

Had she been pro-active in looking for another place to stay, she wouldn't have died (I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that she couldn't have stayed somewhere else). That's simple enough too.

There are two sides to every argument.

Spudmonkey

phasers wrote: »

Because they turned off her heating, in sub zero temperatures, for no reason other than to save money. That's their fault.

If she had heating in her home, she wouldn't have died. It's simple enough.

And to add to that, she was told it was happening!!

Debthree

Spudmonkey wrote: »

She took it upon herself to stay in that apartment in sub zero temperatures knowing full well what temperatures were like at that time of the year. That's her fault.

Yeah it's like those stupid jews who hung around Germany when they KNEW the nazis were around or the Irish during the famine - they knew there was no food but they just stayed put, idiots. Their own fault.

Spudmonkey wrote: »

There are two sides to every argument.

Well the woman is dead so I'd say she pretty much lost out either way wouldn't you?