Irish rugby star to become hero in flotilla.

Katkatim

wes wrote: »

Well, yes thats common knowledge



The link clearly places the blame on Israel and not on Hamas. Seriously, your just making stuff up at this point.

Am I?

Hamas would have nothing to lose actually. A working economy would be more to there benefit, and to suggest otherwise, is utter nonsense.

Hamas are controlling the smuggling tunnels from Egypt and are making money out of selling over priced goods that they smuggle in, so yes, they do have a lot to lose if there's no demand for their over priced goods.
For example:
http://www.israelnewsmagazine.com/review-analysis/hamas-is-fighting-for-the-tunnels-prevents-the-transfer-of-fuel-from-israel/

You mean like the IDF does all the time? Or Israeli settlers do all the time?

I don't understand your question.

Also, its seems you statement support collective punishment. Does that also go for Israel as well, then?

Does it? Well, you're wrong. I don't support collective punishment and I don't understand how you concluded that from what I wrote. So what do you think about the things I asked you? Have you thought about them yet?

wes

squod wrote: »

Not congratulating Obama! Not a fan of either person like. Merely commenting on the speech. Like it or not this will upset the fanboys of hate and those who make good money from them.

Well, to be fair, it has upset some people, which I find odd, because this is the position that Bush had.

wes

Katkatim wrote: »

Am I?

Yes, as the B'Tsellem are clearly talking about Israel in that instance......

Katkatim wrote: »

Hamas are controlling the smuggling tunnels from Egypt and are making money out of selling over priced goods that they smuggle in, so yes, they do have a lot to lose if there's no demand for their over priced goods.
For example:
http://www.israelnewsmagazine.com/review-analysis/hamas-is-fighting-for-the-tunnels-prevents-the-transfer-of-fuel-from-israel/

A working economy would provide a hell of a lot more money in taxes and it would improve the lot of the people of Gaza. Seriously, Hamas want an end to the siege, and to suggest otherwise, is nonsensical.

**EDIT**
Also, the logic behind the siege is that it will weaken Hamas, as the hope was that people would have it so bad, they would get rid of them.
**END EDIT**

Katkatim wrote: »

I don't understand your question.

They were rhetorical.

Katkatim wrote: »

Does it? Well, you're wrong. I don't support collective punishment and I don't understand how you concluded that from what I wrote. So what do you think about the things I asked you? Have you thought about them yet?

Okay, my bad, I mis-read you position.

Katkatim wrote: »

So what do you think about the things I asked you? Have you thought about them yet?

I am pretty sure, I answered everything. What did I miss?

arybvtcw0eolkf

So he boarded.

Fair play to him for at least having the courage of his convictions and not sitting comfortably in front of a computer monitor harping on about the Palestinians and their situation.

However it seem's a little silly to risk life and limb just to bring rugby to Gazan's..

I have loaded over 130kg of balls, boots, runners, jerseys, which were kindly donated by the Leinster squad, on board the MV Saoirse. The hope is they reach Gaza, introducing a new game to the people.

dlofnep

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

However it seem's a little silly to risk life and limb just to bring rugby to Gazan's..

That says more about the IDF, than it does him - that his life might be placed in danger for bringing 'rugby to Gazans'.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

That says more about the IDF, than it does him - that his life might be placed in danger for bringing 'rugby to Gazans'.

Actually it tells me he's a middle class gob sh*te bringing a middle class gob sh*tes game to people who could care less about funny shaped balls & D4 accents.

But like I said, fair play to him for having the courage of his convictions at least.

dlofnep

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

Actually it tells me he's a middle class gob sh*te bringing a middle class gob sh*tes game to people who could care less about funny shaped balls & D4 accents.

I don't follow rugby, so I don't really know anything about him. But his life shouldn't be in danger for what he's doing.

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

But like I said, fair play to him for having the courage of his convictions at least.

Indeed, fair play to him. I would be on it myself if I wasn't struggling with chronic illness. 2 local councillors from here are headed.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

Indeed, fair play to him. I would be on it myself if I wasn't struggling with chronic illness.

All joking and internet one-up manship aside I didn't know that, you going ok?.

chunkylover4

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

Actually it tells me he's a middle class gob sh*te bringing a middle class gob sh*tes game to people who could care less about funny shaped balls & D4 accents.

But like I said, fair play to him for having the courage of his convictions at least.

Well he's from Nenagh and lacks a D4 accent, Don't worry your a middle class gob****e too

Wolfe Tone

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

Actually it tells me he's a middle class gob sh*te bringing a middle class gob sh*tes game to people who could care less about funny shaped balls & D4 accents.

But like I said, fair play to him for having the courage of his convictions at least.

Rugby isnt just a middle class sport anymore.

wixfjord

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

Actually it tells me he's a middle class gob sh*te bringing a middle class gob sh*tes game to people who could care less about funny shaped balls & D4 accents.

But like I said, fair play to him for having the courage of his convictions at least.

Full of meathead gob****es, with big muscles eh Raymond Gorgeous Self-image?

dlofnep

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

All joking and internet one-up manship aside I didn't know that, you going ok?.

I'm getting by I suppose.

Orando Broom

This Hogan lad is the fella bringing chemical weapons to Gaza, yeah?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Rugby isnt just a middle class sport anymore.

That was tongue in cheek, just updating the thread because I really do wish him well and I do respect a man (or woman) who has the courage of their convictions.

I don't agree with what he's doing, but I do wish him a safe voyage.

KeithM89_old

chunkylover4 wrote: »

Well he's from Nenagh and lacks a D4 accent, Don't worry your a middle class gob****e too

Anymore of that and youre getting banned.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm getting by I suppose.

Cool, just don't go stressing about the interwebz stuff.

The Israeli

I have read today Mr. Enda Kenny is very concerned about the the people in Gaza, and warns Israel not to harm any activist on the flotilla.
In fairness, he didn't say something wrong, buttt, he did say nothing about the possible violence of the activists, and by not mentioning it, he took an unfair position.

Just a question:

Would the Palestinians risk their lives for the Irish people if they needed something in their turn?

No1J

Well that all went swimmingly, the Irish boat looked like it came off the shannon. The Israeli's seem to have taken the sting out of the protest and stopped things coming to a head by damaging the boats or was it Sardines.

dsmythy

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't follow rugby, so I don't really know anything about him. But his life shouldn't be in danger for what he's doing.



Indeed, fair play to him. I would be on it myself if I wasn't struggling with chronic illness. 2 local councillors from here are headed.

Well I'm sure he will be perfectly safe as, if his boat is boarded, the occupants won't go wild and give men with guns anything to worry about.

Which two local councillors are going? Are they taking holiday time?

tommyboy2222

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avaSdC0QOUM

hideous ape

The Israeli wrote: »

I have read today Mr. Enda Kenny is very concerned about the the people in Gaza, and warns Israel not to harm any activist on the flotilla.
In fairness, he didn't say something wrong, buttt, he did say nothing about the possible violence of the activists, and by not mentioning it, he took an unfair position.

Just a question:

Would the Palestinians risk their lives for the Irish people if they needed something in their turn?

Solidarity isn't an IOU.

hatrickpatrick

WTF @ all the hate in this thread
The guy is bringing the kids something to play, to enjoy, to have fun with.
You know, to take their minds off the fact they could lose their homes at any moment if the IDF decided to go on another merry little bulldozer rampage or shell an entire down to catch one *alleged* militant.

He's trying to bring them a big of happiness. God knows we have it f*cking easy in this country when our biggest concern is whether or not someone is a "D4". In Palestine it's more like whether or not you're going to wake up tomorrow or whether the IDTs (Israeli Defense Tans) are going to burn down Cork Gaza city in retaliation for what one or two people did and to hell with collateral damage.

Perhaps in the future those who learn about team solidarity and get strong from playing rugby can form a proper Palestinian army to protect their people from any more raiding expeditions from their thuggish neighbours.

dsmythy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

WTF @ all the hate in this thread
The guy is bringing the kids something to play, to enjoy, to have fun with.

Was he refused permission to bring sporting goods into Gaza?

hatrickpatrick

dsmythy wrote: »

Was he refused permission to bring sporting goods into Gaza?

What's that got to do with anything?

Chuck Stone

The Israeli wrote: »

Just a question:

Would the Palestinians risk their lives for the Irish people if they needed something in their turn?

If the Irish were subject to a nasty blockade/seige by an overwhelming military force?

My guess is that there would be huge support for the ending of the strangualtion by all sorts of people - including Palestinians (and Israelis ftm).

The Israeli

If the Irish were subject to a nasty blockade/seige by an overwhelming military force?

My guess is that there would be huge support for the ending of the strangualtion by all sorts of people - including Palestinians (and Israelis ftm).

I bet you can say that suicide bombers and rockets on civilian population is a nasty stuff as well.
You can shape your own truth by forgetting desturbing facts.

The fact is that Palestinians are massively supported throughout 60 years. They have their own UN organization just for them - UNRWA.
The world preserves their status as refuges. They are concidered as refuges even in Syria and Jordan - after 60 years!

As I see it, some of their leaderships currently have only one main mission: getting back to 48's border, even if it will never happen.
For that it is very convinient for them to remain refuges and not want to restore themselves, and the world is giving a hand to it.

I know that some of you have many examples to how Israel is making their lives hard, and I agree with some, but it will never excuse them from their responsibilty to their fate.

About aiding the world - throught the years Israel has aided in several catastrophes that I remember:

Israel offered its help to New Zealand after the earth quake. NZ agreed to accept only a little help. Mainly chemical toilets if I remember.
Israel sent an aid delegation to Japan after the earthquake there. Doctors with lots medical equipment, and warm cloths.
To Tahiti Israel sent a massive aid. A field hospital which was there after just a few days and was the first to offer advanced medical service after the disaster stroke. It also sent search and rescue teams.
In 2004 Israel sent aid to the tsunami stricken countries including Indonisia.
I also remeber the earthquake in Turkey in 1999. I remember that Israel sent big search and rescue teams, and probaby medical also.

That's only from my memory. Now think of how much help the arab world has offered to other countries. The arab world contains hundreds of millions of people.. In reality, how much does it care for the rest of the world?
The western world - arab world have very asymmetric relationships.

hatrickpatrick

^ I'm sorry but as long as Israel is maintaining settlements on other people's land and bulldozing at gunpoint anything which stands in their way I have zero respect for them. Zero. Nothing they do can negate mass theft of land by force. It's no better than someone moving into your house evicting you onto the streets and threatening to shoot you if you try to take it back.

I agree the terrorists have done bad things and I absolutely condemn them but Israel has to take the first step to make this stop: Get rid of the settlements and stop trying to expand. They were given a very generous state in 1948 which itself was also on the land of others and caused many to leave or be driven out.
Whatever about that, 1967 was just inexcusable. A pre emptive strike on a potential threat does not amount to defending yourself, and even if it did, you simply cannot capture land by force and force people to liveo n the streets while you bulldoze their homes and build your own crap on them. This is not the stone age. There are laws to be followed and Israel's expansion violates them.

I agree Israelis have the right to defend themselves. But so do the people living in the areas under threat from expansion. If someone came along to your house with a bulldozer wanting to knock it down to build his own house there I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go down without a fight.

EDIT: If 1967 had never happened I would be on Israel's side. If They would now agree to to revert to the 1967 border I would be on their side. Even Obama has requested this. But there is simply no justification whatsoever for theft by force. None.

The Israeli

The Israeli wrote: »

I bet you can say that suicide bombers and rockets on civilian population is a nasty stuff as well.
You can shape your own truth by forgetting desturbing facts.

The fact is that Palestinians are massively supported throughout 60 years. They have their own UN organization just for them - UNRWA.
The world preserves their status as refuges. They are concidered as refuges even in Syria and Jordan - after 60 years!

As I see it, some of their leaderships currently have only one main mission: getting back to 48's border, even if it will never happen.
For that it is very convinient for them to remain refuges and not want to restore themselves, and the world is giving a hand to it.

I know that some of you have many examples to how Israel is making their lives hard, and I agree with some, but it will never excuse them from their responsibilty to their fate.

About aiding the world - throught the years Israel has aided in several catastrophes that I remember:

Israel offered its help to New Zealand after the earth quake. NZ agreed to accept only a little help. Mainly chemical toilets if I remember.
Israel sent an aid delegation to Japan after the earthquake there. Doctors with lots medical equipment, and warm cloths.
To Tahiti Israel sent a massive aid. A field hospital which was there after just a few days and was the first to offer advanced medical service after the disaster stroke. It also sent search and rescue teams.
I also remeber the earthquake in Turkey in 1999. I remember that Israel sent big search and rescue teams, and probaby medical also.

That's only from my memory. Now think of how much help the arab world has offered to other countries. The arab world contains hundreds of millions of people.. In reality, how much does it care for the rest of the world?
The western world - arab world have very asymmetric relationships.

hmmmm let's see- what does the island of Ireland have that Israel hasn't got?


Oh yeah! A two state peaceful resolution to a violent conflict that's been agreed by popular referendum in both states.

No point pointing the finger over the wall at why you guys don't have it. We had 30 years of pointing fingers over the wall as we shot and threw stones over it. Believe us, you have to, at least privately, begin to turn that finger 180 degrees until you're looking down your fingernail. Then start asking what part *you* had in this major clusterf*ck.

The guys over the wall have to do the *exact* same thing, but part of the process is realising that it's not your job to point that out to them, it's a third party's.

In the Good Friday Agreement, combatant prisoners from both sides were released. That means that ex-killers walk the streets in Northern Ireland. A major injustice? In some eyes, yes, but the island of Ireland accepted it (by popular vote) because we weren't going to allow a point of principle get in the way of a lasting peace (and re-offenders for whatever crime went back behind bars)

What's your take on this Arab Spring thing then? The Arab savages looking for western -style democracy and more Human rights? How dare they! They're savages!

What happens when the neighbouring Arab states become more democratic & westernised than Israel?

Chuck Stone

The Israeli wrote: »

I bet you can say that suicide bombers and rockets on civilian population is a nasty stuff as well.
You can shape your own truth by forgetting desturbing facts.

What?

The fact is that Palestinians are massively supported throughout 60 years. They have their own UN organization just for them - UNRWA.
The world preserves their status as refuges. They are concidered as refuges even in Syria and Jordan - after 60 years!

So? Israel is massively supported by the US tax payer whether the US taxpayer likes it or not.

it is very convinient for them to remain refuges and not want to restore themselves, and the world is giving a hand to it.

Just as it is convienient for Israel to say that it is the only paragon of freedom in the M.E. and has a billion Muslims calling for it's destruction. (which is kinda B.S.).

I know that some of you have many examples to how Israel is making their lives hard, and I agree with some, but it will never excuse them from their responsibilty to their fate.

What responsibility would that be then?

About aiding the world - throught the years Israel has aided in several catastrophes that I remember:

I have no doubt this is true. However, Israel has also had a short history of sustaining 'good relations' with distastefull regimes who are opressors of their populations. Aparthied South Africa for example.

That's only from my memory. Now think of how much help the arab world has offered to other countries. The arab world contains hundreds of millions of people.. In reality, how much does it care for the rest of the world?

Are you saying that Israelis/Jews are superioir to Arabs?Muslims?

Many of the brutal dictatorial regimes that Arabs are/were subject to were as a result of support by the US (and by extension Israel).

Let's not get all starry eyed when it comes to Israel. It has its flaws like any other state.

The Israeli

Ok, so we do agree on many things in the end..
Right now, Israel doesn't bulldoze any houses. If it builds, it builds on new areas, and I don't say that it's good. Israel has agreed to return and exchange territories for a future peace agreament, when and if it will come. (it will come.. some day..).
As you mentioned, 6 days war was an act of self defence. Why Israel has not handed up the territories straight away to its enemy countries?
You can name several reasons for that. However, I do, and most of the Israelis acknowledge, that if we want peace, we have to give back the territories.. With Syria it won't be possible for the next years, as you know by whom it is controlled.
With the Palestinians, we hope and try. They are divided into Gaza strip and the East bank. With the second we are in a very diffcult peace process, but at least it's something, but with Hamas in Gaza we have no relationship, and as you know, they are labeled as terror organization by the USA also and they do not recognize the Israeli right to exist.

So yes, we do not allow a free goods transfer from and to Gaza because we have a very very solid ground to believe that it will be used for self armament.
However, I do think that a total blocade is harmful and more goods should be allowed in but only after the Israeli examination.
That's why we can't allow to lift the blocade, and can't allow the flotilla to lift it and risk our security.

old_aussie

The Israeli wrote: »

I have read today Mr. Enda Kenny is very concerned about the the people in Gaza, and warns Israel not to harm any activist on the flotilla.

Israel trembles in fear of what enda will do.

wes

The Israeli wrote: »

Right now, Israel doesn't bulldoze any houses.

That is simply untrue:

22 June '11: Sharp increase in West Bank home demolition

The link btw, is a Israeli Human Rights org, and release is from a couple of weeks ago. So you are completely wrong in your statement, and considering there is a increase in demolitions, its makes your statement doubly bizarre.

Phill Ewinn

Subject covered on VB last night. Irish news sources seem otherwise quiet about the whole affair. It's clear at least two of the boats won't sail and the Israelis want no-one to bother their palistinian hostages or visit their ports.

c_man

Didn't the Egyptians open up their part of the blockade recently? If so, what's the point of the flotilla?

wes

c_man wrote: »

Didn't the Egyptians open up their part of the blockade recently? If so, what's the point of the flotilla?

Its only open to people, and then that opening is itself limited. Egypt can't thrown open the borders due to previous agreements:

Open Border at Gaza Is Not So Open, Palestinians Find

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Ok, so we do agree on many things in the end..
Right now, Israel doesn't bulldoze any houses.
.

"demolishes" then.....

21.6.11 Israel demolishes dozens of Palestinian homes in Jordan Valley and southern Hebron hills

In the past week, the Civil Administration demolished 33 temporary residential structures in three Palestinian communities in the Jordan Valley – Fayasil, al-Hadidiya, and Khirbet Yarza – and in the Palestinian community Khirbet Bir al-‘Id in the southern Hebron hills. Since the beginning of 2011, the Civil Administration has demolished 103 Palestinian residential structures in Area C*. They were home to 706 persons, among them 341 minors.

http://www.btselem.org/topic-page/21611-israel-demolishes-dozens-palestinian-homes-jordan-valley-and-southern-hebron-hills

TheIsraeli wrote:

If it builds, it builds on new areas, and I don't say that it's good. Israel has agreed to return and exchange territories for a future peace agreament, when and if it will come. (it will come.. some day..).

However its constant expansion and absolute refusal to compromise in private shows rather a different agenda, which is to grab all territories that it deems feasible, before tossing the scraps to the Palestinians.

bamboozle

Fair play to Trevor for doing something that us Irish are very poor at, rather than moaning about something going out and actually doing something about it.

i admire him for that, he's always been a big history and current affairs buff and this is something he feels passionately about.

The Israeli

demolishes.. you forgot to quote:

Yet few Civil Administration outline plans have been made for Palestinian communities, and they do not enable any construction or development beyond what already exists, making it impossible for Palestinians to build legally in these areas.

So, they demolished illegal buildings... That's a crime....

I know that wes and Nodin will say that all the settlements are illegal. Well, that's a different subject.
Is it related to the flotilla and the Israeli blockade? no.

I'm not following annnny of this, but suffice to say, we've seen this in Ireland after our conflict:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1xYV0kQfvY

Keep in mind, that's the Queen of England,

Laying a wreath,

In memory of those who fought against the forces of the Queen of England

for Irish Independence.

Do you ever think Netanyahu'd do something similar?

Would the leader of the British National Party do it?

I don't think so.

I'll probably be older than Queenie up there is before anything similar happens.

You Israeli crazies go enjoy your war, plenty of towelhead savages left to shoot.....

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

demolishes.. you forgot to quote:



So, they demolished illegal buildings... That's a crime....
.

They demolished buildings that they declared illegal in an area they are illegally occupying.

The Israeli wrote: »

I know that wes and Nodin will say that all the settlements are illegal.
.

...me him and most of the rest of the planet. And the majority of legal opinion, which is what counts.

The Israeli wrote: »

Is it related to the flotilla and the Israeli blockade? no.

...it was related to your comment.

Chuck Stone

The Israeli wrote: »

Right now, Israel doesn't bulldoze any houses.

Israel prefers laser guided bombs. I give you South Lebanon (2006) and Gaza (2009).

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Israel prefers laser guided bombs. I give you South Lebanon (2006) and Gaza (2009).

Cheaper and safer than carpet bombing an area with dumb iron bombs.

The Israeli

It's all a matter of how you present it. You can present it as:

Israel demolishes homes of Palestinians. What is a home to you? It's a legal place where you live for 1, 5, 10, 30 years...

What is an illegal building? A hastily built building, built knowingly that it might be taken down some day soon.

For people in Dublin or Cork, demolishing homes will always connect to their legal buildings that they are familiar with.
So if you say something pretty strong like this, be kind and mention of what type this buildings were, because it's a sheer disinformation.

btw, Israel demolishes illegal buildings of both settlers and Palestinians. Though, it doesn't demolish all the illegal buildings by both sides due to lack of army and police manpower.
Yes, I agree that we have a disagreement on how you define a legal building. I also don't agree with the policy too much.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

It's all a matter of how you present it. You can present it as:

Israel demolishes homes of Palestinians. What is a home to you? It's a legal place where you live for 1, 5, 10, 30 years...

What is an illegal building? A hastily built building, built knowingly that it might be taken down some day soon.

For people in Dublin or Cork, demolishing homes will always connect to their legal buildings that they are familiar with.
So if you say something pretty strong like this, be kind and mention of what type this buildings were, because it's a sheer disinformation.

....I think the only kind of disinformation here is what you've typed above.

For years, the Civil Administration and the settlers in the southern Hebron hills have been attempting to drive the residents of Khirbet al-‘Id out of their village. In 2004, the villagers had no choice but to leave after the area was declared a "firing zone" and after they were repeatedly harassed by settlers. In its 2009 decision on a petition filed by Rabbis for Human Rights, the High Court of Justice ordered the Civil Administration to enable the Palestinians to return to the land on which they had lived, but only to sections that had not been declared a "firing zone." In December of the same year, the Civil Administration issued demolition orders for 17 shacks in the community, on the grounds that they had been built without a permit.

This attitude starkly contrasts the treatment of settlers in the unauthorized outpost Mizpe Ya’ir, established next to Khirbet al-‘Id in 1989, partly on private Palestinian-owned land. The outpost was built without a permit, yet has been hooked up to water and electricity, and an access road has even been paved for it – at government expense. The Civil Administration has taken no action to enforce the law in the outpost.

http://www.btselem.org/topic-page/21611-israel-demolishes-dozens-palestinian-homes-jordan-valley-and-southern-hebron-hills
(my bold)

I think its fairly clear what the difference between illegal homes that are demolished and those that aren't are.

Nodin

I salute your Ninja editing skillz.

The Israeli wrote: »

btw, Israel demolishes illegal buildings of both settlers and Palestinians. Though, it doesn't demolish all the illegal buildings by both sides due to lack of army and police manpower.
.

...they can control an occupied population of a few million for 40 years, but can't demolish illegal settlements for lack of manpower. Hmmmmm.

If there's an "illegal" Palestinian structure still standing, its because they couldn't be arsed knocking it down.

Chuck Stone

Raymond Gorgeous Self-image wrote: »

Cheaper and safer than carpet bombing an area with dumb iron bombs.

They're only as safe as the people firing them decide.

Think of it this way.

Before the LGB if you wanted to kill civilians en masse or destroy their infrastructure you had to get lucky or expend massive amounts of time energy and resources (Bombing of Dresden WW2 for example).

Now you just need an armed unmanned aircraft and a reason.

The Israeli

Nodin wrote: »

I salute your Ninja editing skillz.




...they can control an occupied population of a few million for 40 years, but can't demolish illegal settlements for lack of manpower. Hmmmmm.

If there's an "illegal" Palestinian structure still standing, its because they couldn't be arsed knocking it down.

Sounds like you take it very personally.
For taking down a small settlement it takes overcoming a huge opposition by the religious nationalists. It takes thousands of police forces to demolish a relatively small settlement. That's about the forces it requires. It is always a game of a cat and a mouse - the government evacuates, and they come back and rebuild.

I'm just mentioning the complexity of evacuating a mild settlement. You aren't dealing with 100 people. You are dealing with dozens of thousands.
The government demolishes usually tiny settlements like those who consist of 3 caravans and etc. They are always illegal. Also, all the big ons are legal so it can demolish only illegal buildings there.

From 67 to 90's something it was legal and encouraged by the government to build settlements. At time, people didn't think about the possibility of a Palestinian state. They thought of how to prevent from the Palestinians of taking over the land in Judea and Samaria, and the resolution was building settlements.
Now we are facing a problem..Now that the idea of a Palestinian state is clear, and the price of peace is clear.
The problem is in coordinating the mutual concessions. Both sides have extremists, both sides have what to lose, both sides have a big ego, and both sides don't agree on very major issues. I don't count wikileaks, because since wikileaks I heard contradicting sayings (the latest talks in Washington, for instance).
I'm personally completely with Obama's vision of peace.

P.S: you know why I'm not completely against the current policy?
1999- 2001 - left wing party is in power - The breaking out of the second intifada.
2001 - 2008 - centre wing party in power - a relative peace, the second Lebanese war, operation Cast Lead.
2008 - now - right wing party in power - a relative peace.

All Israelis know this and come to their conclusions..

This is why, in my opinion, the peace process has to be very very slow. "This" situation seems to work the best, but if you want peace, you have to do something, but this something has to be done slowly. A little step forward and then a lot of time for the population to adjust. Otherwise, it will be a peace on paper and many coming wars, as before when the left leaders tried to rush forward towards peace.

The Israeli

The Israeli wrote: »

1999- 2001 - left wing party is in power - The breaking out of the second intifada.
2001 - 2008 - centre wing party in power - a relative peace, the second Lebanese war, operation Cast Lead.
2008 - now - right wing party in power - a relative peace.

All Israelis know this and come to their conclusions..

This is why, in my opinion, the peace process has to be very very slow. "This" situation seems to work the best, but if you want peace, you have to do something, but this something has to be done slowly. A little step forward and then a lot of time for the population to adjust. Otherwise, it will be a peace on paper and many coming wars, as before when the left leaders tried to rush forward towards peace.

Oh it's peace alright. Peace in Our Time.

Kinda surprised that Jewish people don't abhor and spit on the right wing. After all, those same such populist politics & nationalist thinking is what got tanks streaming into Poland in 1939.

And we all know what happened to the minorities.

And what eventually happened to the oppressors.

The solution isn't for the oppressed to become the oppressor.

All that aggressive containment will do is give you time and ratchet up the anger. Eventually, something will give, and the only option left for Israel would be to either put down the guns or commit genocide themselves. And don't say it won't happen. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a Jewish equivalent to the BNP in Israel who'd eradicate Palestine if they could.

Also that peace accord was finished when a Jewish religious zealot shot yhe centrist trying to bring peace.

The Israeli

In a perfect world the left wingers are right. There are no wars, no weapons, people act by reason, compassion and fairness.

We are human beings > we aren't perfect > we don't live in a perfect world > we have wars, weapons, some people do not accept reason, despise compassion and lack of fairness.

If you decide to close your eyes to that, and act like as we lived in a perfect world, you do not survive.
If you are fair and play by the book, but the other side doesn't, you are going to be beaten, and it applies to every field in life.

First people have to accept that the world isn't perfect, and then see how they can make it better without leading to chaos.

King of Kings

prinz wrote: »

Israelis would never lie. Ever.

they never lie.
They put their fingers in their ears and shout "nazi" or "anti semitism" repeatedly really loud.
Then curse that they had to be interviewed by matt cooper and their collegue got the easy ride off that israeli apologist George Hook.