Ireland vs France in BORDEAUX August 2011 **mod warning post 287**

Hagz

Systic wrote: »

Thats right, Trimble has been playing much better. If Horgan could play 11 I would have him ahead of Earls and Fitzgerald as well. The fact is Earls has done very little this year at 11 whereas Trimble has looked very, very good. It doesn't help that Trimble is unfashionable though for many supporters.

Haha yes! This thread just got interesting!

Earls had a smashing year. He was one of Ireland's best players in the 6nations, and has been electric for Munster recently. Remember his game against Brive, and his try against Leinster. He has had a stellar year and is Ireland's no.1 winger at the moment.

profitius

Its more experimental than I thought it would be. Good to see Cullen captaining the side again.

One name that hasn't been mentioned yet is Peter Stringer. Its looking unlikely he'll make the WC squad. I think its now between Murray and Boss for the third position.

I can see why they're playing players in different positions. They need players to be able to fill in multiple positions for obvious reasons. That means the likes of Jennings and Felix Jones are at a disadvantage and I don't think they'll make the WC squad if everyone stays fit.

Buckley ahead of Hayes also shows that Buckley is favourite to make it out of those two but who knows.

GerM

buck65 wrote: »

What is the problem with Leamy at 8? Has played there plenty for club and country. Always was in the shakeup for a place.

Because he's not our first or second choice 8. He won't play there in the WC unless there's an injury crisis. It would make more sense to play SOB there as he hasn't got much time there in a while and getting a look at someone else at 7. He played last week and played decently. I don't see why DK needs to see him there again. Matches are too few not to be getting a good look at everyone.

Hagz

buck65 wrote: »

McLaughlin is the better second row, Ryan the better lock. Not much between them.

?? Think you meant to say back-row, not second-row.

Hagz

profitius wrote: »

One name that hasn't been mentioned yet is Peter Stringer. Its looking unlikely he'll make the WC squad. I think its now between Murray and Boss for the third position.

Why? There's still 2 games left.

Earls was probably the only player from the 6N that didn't have a bad game. In fact he was more than "quite good" against Scotland, England and looked threatening in the rest of the games.

Fitz is miles behind him at the moment. Trimble is pushing hard, but not quite there. He's definitely the #1 wing replacement though, especially as he can play 11 and 14 quite comfortably.

Horgan had a smashing season alright, but he's behind a very long list of players for an Ireland Jersey, and I'd never, ever, ever put him in at 11.

durkadurka

PhatPiggins wrote: »

As above

We're always ahead of the game on this forum!

buck65

I did will change it.

theboss80

Systic wrote: »

ll. The fact is Earls has done very little this year at 11

Are you for real? How did you come up with that assessment?

wixfjord wrote: »

Has Bowe not picked up an injury or summat?

I don't know?? Haven't heard anything (or at least can't remember)

theboss80

profitius wrote: »

One name that hasn't been mentioned yet is Peter Stringer. Its looking unlikely he'll make the WC squad. I think its now between Murray and Boss for the third position.
.

Stringer is away on Munster duty this week

buck65

GerM wrote: »

Because he's not our first or second choice 8. He won't play there in the WC unless there's an injury crisis. It would make more sense to play SOB there as he hasn't got much time there in a while and getting a look at someone else at 7. He played last week and played decently. I don't see why DK needs to see him there again. Matches are too few not to be getting a good look at everyone.

Yes but O Brien is a cert on the starting 15 , I reckon Kidney is giving Leamy another look to see if he can put 2 good games together.
I reckon the likes of O Brien, Heaslip, O Connell, O Driscoll and all the stars get the last 2 games. Really it is the fringe players again with a few definites thrown in. I would reckon that Kidney has already 25 names at least on his list just looking at a few combinations and a chance for a few bolters. Remember there are 3 games left.

Conas

D Ryan at 6 is just not a good idea. He offers something in the lineout, but he's just not a 6. The thing about the likes of Ryan, McCarthy, and McLaughlin is they don't have the pace and speed to play six at International Level. You need an O'Brien or Ferris there. The problem with the Irish Management is they care too bloody much about the damn lineout, and in my opinion the lineout isn't near that important.

Wallace and Earls in the centre will be targeted all day, and will probaly get injured. Weak pairing....Earls is a winger, and Wallace should be the waterboy. I'm happy with the front and second row.

totallegend

Hagz wrote: »

Why? There's still 2 games left.

No, I'd agree that Stringer is as good as gone.

Of the players sent off to join Munster in France, only Stringer and Varley had played no part against Scotland; Varley won't be in the squad, I don't think Stringer will either.
It will be interesting to see how much time Murray gets on Saturday; putting Isaac Boss on as part of a five-man swap with 20 minutes to go gave him very little chance to put in a decent showing - the scrum-half needs decent ball and he got none. If Murray gets a bit more time with a more cohesive pack in front of him, he has a chance here.

That back-row is ridiculous. The best #6 in Europe is playing at #7, a second-rate lock/#6 is playing at #7 and a 6/8 who is well past his best keeping the one of the best #8s in Europe on the bench, meanwhile two specialist 7s are scratching their arses at home.

I said it before the Scotland game; if Jennings is injured, why is David Wallace not playing? Then, if Jennings is back for the next match, he can play and Wallace will have had some warm-up time.
I don't get Kidney's mindset at all.

bamboozle

buck65 wrote: »

Lads alot of stuff about the injured players on here at the moment. Kidney said that D'arcy, Ferris and Jennings if fit wouldn't be risked til the last games i.e 2 weeks time. They were never getting a look in here.
What is the problem with Leamy at 8? Has played there plenty for club and country. Always was in the shakeup for a place.[/QUOTE]

???
the best number 8 we have is Heaslip, the 2nd best we have is SOB yet Leamy gets a run in the first 2 preseason games in a position he has no right to be starting come the world cup. Leamy hasnt been able to hold down the Munster no. 8 position or at blindside for that matter yet Kidney seems to think his form of 3 seasons ago warrants a place in the team.

My fear is with inclusion of Ryan and Leamy that Kidney had his mind made up on the squad a long time ago. I feel sorry for Earls, he should be on the wing where he can continue to improve his game, playing him at 13 disruptive for his game.
It also worries me to think that Oz are playing seriously competitive tri nations games at the moment yet a month from kick off our best team hasnt been blooded yet.

its a very light weight backline, ROG and Wallace at 10-12 is asking for a lot of runners down those channels, thankfully Lievremont is coaching france and probably wont notice!

val_jester

GerM wrote: »

Because he's not our first or second choice 8. He won't play there in the WC unless there's an injury crisis. It would make more sense to play SOB there as he hasn't got much time there in a while and getting a look at someone else at 7. He played last week and played decently. I don't see why DK needs to see him there again. Matches are too few not to be getting a good look at everyone.

Heaslip is being eased back in, he had injury problems last season but he showed that he gets back up to speed very quickly when fit. He is on the bench, he will get time tomorrow. SOB may be seen as second choice 8 for the world cup but he has to show he can play 7, if ferris is fit he will start, so that we can see if a fez-sob-heaslip backrow is viable. Leamy was very good last week and with jennings injury is in poll position to go to the world cup. Wallace is 35, he needs as much rest as possible. Sob is the only 7 available, he was always going to start there. Leamy is then the logical choice at 8. Everyone who has a shot at going will get a look in.

molloyjh

buck65 wrote: »

Flannery is probably one of the best hookers in the NH and is needed if fit, you're shuddering away there about two HCup and Grand Slam winners who have proven themselves, O Leary whilst out of form due to injury amongst other things has shown himself well capable of being at least on the plane. Leamy's covers the backrow and was one of the better players on the pitch last week.

Ah here now come on, you're talking about TOL's GS medal from 30 months ago as though it's more relevant than his form 6 months ago. We played a completely different type of game in 2009 also, which is probably far more relevant that either.

As for Leamy, he didn't get the nickname 6 points for nothing. He had a good game against Scotland certainly, mainly due to a bit of hunger to get back into the running for a starting place (which is no bad thing) but when we have the likes of Fez, SOB, Heaslip, Wally and Jenno available I'm afraid Leamy is below all of those in most peoples estimations.

Totally agree about Fla though...

Overall I'm happy enough with the selection. Not 100% sure about that centre partnership, but I have heard Bowe has some ankle injury and with BOD and Darce out and Ferg getting a full 80 last week I can see the logic. Would like to have seen Geordan Murphy get a spot too.

Systic

theboss80 wrote: »

Are you for real? How did you come up with that assessment?

Earls did absolutely nothing of note in the 6N. He didn't even score a try, Trimble actually looks far more dangerous. Maybe its because hes not from Leinster or Munster though

Back Row Options for the WC

8
Heaslip
SOB
Leamy
Wallace
Ferris

7
Wallace
Jennings
SOB
Ferris

6
Ferris
SOB
Leamy
McLaughlin

Ignoring 5.5s (sic). They're probably representative of how I'd see our players competing for slots when they're at their best. Unfortunately for Leamy, he's had possibly his worst season in professional rugby. Yes he gave a very good account of himself last week, but it smacks of favouritism that he was even included.

Now, lets look at 7, a position we don't really have much adequate cover in, we've tonnes of 6s and pretty much all of them can play 8, so why oh why would we bring another 6 who can cover 8 at the expense of an out and out 7? If Leamy travels in the place of Jennings, Kidney's blinder than I thought.

*of course if Jennings is injured, then the above changes.

totallegend

Systic wrote: »

Earls did absolutely nothing of note in the 6N. He didn't even score a try, Trimble actually looks far more dangerous. Maybe its because hes not from Leinster or Munster though

You'll probably get slated for that but you're right.

Unfortunately, most people don't watch enough Ulster games to know enough about Trimble's excellent, consistent form in the last two seasons, yet feel qualified to give an opinion anyway.

Trimble is a better winger than Earls.

Systic

Systic wrote: »

Earls did absolutely nothing of note in the 6N. He didn't even score a try, Trimble actually looks far more dangerous. Maybe its because hes not from Leinster or Munster though

I like Trimble, a lot, I like how aggressive he is, and that he makes up for errors and doesn't let anything get into his head during a game.

He deserves to be a part of the team sure, his versatility at covering 11,12,14 won't go unnoticed.

However, it is completely ridiculous to decide to try to tear down Earls' performances this season to try to leapfrog Trimble ahead of him. Earls Bowe and Trimble have consistently perfomed well throughout this season, and the competition for places is obviously really very good for all of them.

The need to belittle a player's abilities and performances in order to exaggerate a percieved gulf in class between him and your favoured player is nonsense, childish, and unfortunately completely typical of this forum.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

Back Row Options for the WC

8
Heaslip
SOB
Leamy
Wallace
Ferris

7
Wallace
Jennings
SOB
Ferris

6
Ferris
SOB
Leamy
McLaughlin

Ignoring 5.5s (sic). They're probably representative of how I'd see our players competing for slots when they're at their best. Unfortunately for Leamy, he's had possibly his worst season in professional rugby. Yes he gave a very good account of himself last week, but it smacks of favouritism that he was even included.

Now, lets look at 7, a position we don't really have much adequate cover in, we've tonnes of 6s and pretty much all of them can play 8, so why oh why would we bring another 6 who can cover 8 at the expense of an out and out 7? If Leamy travels in the place of Jennings, Kidney's blinder than I thought.

*of course if Jennings is injured, then the above changes.

Sob will be ahead of jennings for 7. With the other players being rested or injured, leamys inclusion last week made absolute sense. If people want to see favouritism in selections, then they will.

roycon

Earls is the most overhyped player in irish rugby over the last ten years. people always mention he's from a poor background as if this some how makes him a better player and more deserving of a place on the irish rugby team. this means he deserves to be picked for ireland more than other players becasue hes a nice lad despite the fact his performances on the wing have been universally poorer than either trimble and fitzgerald even when fitzgerald lost his confidence

Systic

buck65 wrote: »

Just highlighted some little pointers here.
Flannery is probably one of the best hookers in the NH and is needed if fit

was one of the best. He hasn't had a full game in 18 months. He should not start any WC games. I mean theres people who think it will be too late for the likes of Ferris and Jennings to make it but somehow Flannery gets thrown into the mix despite being out for far longer?

you're shuddering away there about two HCup and Grand Slam winners who have proven themselves

And who aren't up to form anymore. Leave past accolades in the past and judge on form.

O Leary whilst out of form due to injury amongst other things has shown himself well capable of being at least on the plane.

I'm shuddering at the idea of him being in the 22. He should be behind Reddan, Murray and Boss and yet will be starting.

Leamy's covers the backrow and was one of the better players on the pitch last week.

He covers 6 and 8. Wilson covers 6 and 8, O'Brien covers the entire backrow, Wallace covers 7 and 8, if anyone gets injured its very simple....so if Wallace gets injured, move O'Brien to 7 and put on McLaughlin. If Heaslip gets injured move O'Brien to 8 and put on McLaughlin at 6. If O'Brien gets injured...put on McLaughlin. Don't play Leamy because hes versatile, we dont versatility in that backrow considering our options. Leamy was very quiet on the pitch last week. McCarthy outperformed him completely.

McLaughlin is the better back row, Ryan the better lock. Not much between them.

So why on earth is Ryan getting gametime at 6? McLauglin is better at 6 and McCarthy is better than Ryan at both 6 and lock and yet Ryan still gets game time, its almost as comical as Niall Ronan somehow getting in the team.

Your slagging of Declan kidney and blathering about "form squads" in the off sesaon is childish and ill informed.

Reel in the neck, I am criticising. Your being childish by getting so offended that I would dare question the decisions of a recent former Munster coach (I BET your are a Munster fan, please tell).

bamboozle

val_jester wrote: »

Heaslip is being eased back in, he had injury problems last season but he showed that he gets back up to speed very quickly when fit. He is on the bench, he will get time tomorrow. SOB may be seen as second choice 8 for the world cup but he has to show he can play 7, if ferris is fit he will start, so that we can see if a fez-sob-heaslip backrow is viable. Leamy was very good last week and with jennings injury is in poll position to go to the world cup. Wallace is 35, he needs as much rest as possible. Sob is the only 7 available, he was always going to start there. Leamy is then the logical choice at 8. Everyone who has a shot at going will get a look in.

i dont think Kidney does logic, if he did Leamy would be struggling to be considered for the WC as an 8 ahead of Wilson and Coughlan. Just like Ronan would be struggling behind JOC and Faloon. Kidney does loyalty.

val_jester

val_jester wrote: »

Sob will be ahead of jennings for 7. With the other players being rested or injured, leamys inclusion last week made absolute sense. If people want to see favouritism in selections, then they will.

Leamy's inclusion last week had nothing to do with Jennings, nor will it this week.

When you have a limited squad to choose from, you cannot have the cushion that we have at the moment.

What happens come the WC, if we lose Wallace, or that we have to play both Wallace and SOB in the minnows games and they pick up slight knocks. We now have a problem at 7, and we've brought along 4 players who can play 6 (I'm almost guaranteeing that Kidney brings this 5.5 player), 4 of whom can cover 8, and 2 of whom can perhaps play 7 though they would definitely rate it as their weakest spot in the back row.

I'm talking about the WC, 5 weeks away, not this game this weekend.

8 - Heaslip, SOB, Ferris
7 - Wallace, SOB, Jennings
6 - Ferris, SOB, "5.5"

There's no need to bring Leamy.

andrewdcs

totallegend wrote: »

You'll probably get slated for that but you're right.

Unfortunately, most people don't watch enough Ulster games to know enough about Trimble's excellent, consistent form in the last two seasons, yet feel qualified to give an opinion anyway.

Trimble is a better winger than Earls.

Defo true on the number of games watched. I'd say it's touch and go, bit of a rock paper scissors for various strenghts and positions. In the games I've seen of them over the past 6 months Earls "feels" more dangerous and versatile, but he's playing with the team he's playing with, magners league final and a few other major highlights stick in the mind, can't say same about Trimble who really deserves a seat. I'd take Trimble over Fitzy on the past few months form.... hell I'd take Shaggy.

Systic

Deleted User wrote: »

The need to belittle a player's abilities and performances in order to exaggerate a percieved gulf in class between him and your favoured player is nonsense, childish, and unfortunately completely typical of this forum.

You see, this is what I am talking about. It seems you cannot criticise certain managers or players without being accused of "slagging them" or "belittling them" and being called "childish.

All I said was Earls did nothing of note in the 6N (where is all this "he was excellent" hyperbole coming from?? watch the games again) and that Trimble has been outperforming him and Fitzgerald all season.

I may be slightly biased towards Trimble but you lot are certainly biased towards Earls and Fitzgerald as well.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

Leamy's inclusion last week had nothing to do with Jennings, nor will it this week.

When you have a limited squad to choose from, you cannot have the cushion that we have at the moment.

What happens come the WC, if we lose Wallace, or that we have to play both Wallace and SOB in the minnows games and they pick up slight knocks. We now have a problem at 7, and we've brought along 4 players who can play 6 (I'm almost guaranteeing that Kidney brings this 5.5 player), 4 of whom can cover 8, and 2 of whom can perhaps play 7 though they would definitely rate it as their weakest spot in the back row.

I'm talking about the WC, 5 weeks away, not this game this weekend.

8 - Heaslip, SOB, Ferris
7 - Wallace, SOB, Jennings
6 - Ferris, SOB, "5.5"

There's no need to bring Leamy.

Where did I say it had anything do to with jennings?

I said the reason that leamy was selected at 8 is bacause ferris is injured and heaslip and sob are being eased back into rugby. It is the same this week. Heaslip will come of the bench, wallace is still being rested, ferris isn't fit yet and sob needs time at 7, therefore leamy is the obvious choice, especially considering he put in a good performance last week.

LostPassword

I figure that at this stage Stringer, Duffy and McLaughlin are definitely not on the plane.

Systic

Systic wrote: »

You see, this is what I am talking about. It seems you cannot criticise certain managers or players without being accused of "slagging them" or "belittling them" and being called "childish.

The thing is, that by simply saying "X has been ****e, Y is better", you're not criticising players. You're just swinging an axe. And nobody sees anything but that.

If you'd come on and said, "I like that Trimble attacks the gainline every time he gets the ball, I think he has more power than Earls in the tackle and is more likely to break through a tackler. I realise that kicking isn't a huge strength, but to be honest, Earls' isn't a great kicker either. I know Trimble's prone to a few knock ons, but you've got to see that he attacks the ball at pace and you've got to break a few eggs to make an omellete".

This is constructive and doesn't lead to arguments. Instead, we'd actually be able to talk about rugby and not pointless ****e about rivals and bias.

FWIW Trimble's been miles ahead of Fitzgerald this season, no question about it. But I'd be amazed if you could find me a poor 6N game that Earls had.