Irish wings for World Cup

Sean Bateman · 17-08-2011 12:53pm

Trimble on the left and Bowe on the right.

Fitzgerald has gone backwards over the last year or so and although Earls is a great broken field runner he doesn't appear to have the rugby intelligence or vision to be a top class international back.

Trevor Kent · 17-08-2011 1:41pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

It was the game against the Barbarians in Thomond at the end of the 2009/10 season.

He also nearly chased down Juan Smith in the South Africa game in November 2010.

I think in the Leinster game in Wembly against Saracens he showed a nice bit of gas for his involvement in our try.

Thats the one. I remember thinking certain try when he came into camera shot from nowhere. He's probabaly no Hickie, but I bet he's one of the quickest on the Irish squad, not far off the likes of Earls or Trimble.

Ardillaun · 17-08-2011 1:52pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

Earls is definetly quick look at his try against Wales last year where he outpaced Ickle and halfpenny. I don't think Kearney like Fitz is that quick at top end - he has been rooted to the spot a couple of times in defence- it did look like he has picked up a yard in the French game.

In the olden days many of the wingers were top 100m performers. Nowadays a lot more is required of them. Kearney is a great asset particularly against an SA type team that kicks the ball. Like BOD, he's an elusive runner but in defence once a decent winger gets beyond him that's it. I've seen it with Sackey, and even Clerc the other day. Pace isn't everything for a winger or a full back - Shane Horgan has been marvellous for Ireland despite his lack of world class winger pace. I remember seeing Lewis Moody of all people almost catching up with Horgan on two occasions in the Noughties and Shaggy still scored. Still, it means we should tailor our tactics to reflect reality. Guys like Beale and Ioane are going to pose a serious challenge out wide.

Downlinz · 17-08-2011 3:41pm

totallegend wrote: »

More directed at Cpt_blackbeard who 'liked' your post, tbh, not at you.

I'm just sick of the Munster favouritism on these threads, and the total lack of consistency applied to people's thought processes, which is fine for a random internet discussion, but when it starts seeping into the mainstream media and, by all evidence, into DK's selections, it gets my goat something shocking:

Examples:
"Murray and Jones HAVE to go to the World Cup"; despite having about 20 senior games between them. We're told they're young, they have potential, could add a spark etc etc. Where is the clamour for Eoin O'Malley, Craig Gilroy, Dominic Ryan or Nevin Spence*? Young guys who have shown bags more actual ability on the pitch?

(*I know Spence was officially ruled out of the 43-man squad, but prior to that there was no media frenzy to get him)

"Earls is in possession of the #11 shirt and deserves to hold on to it" despite Trimble being our best back in the warm-ups so far. Well, Rory Best is in possession of the #2 shirt and is playing well, Jerry Flannery has 40 minutes game time in the last year but the consensus here is that he has to be starting hooker in New Zealand. Where's the consistency in that?

"Geordan Murphy will have had too little game to be risked"; see above re Flannery, where's the consistency?

Answer me this; name me one World Cup "bolter" who isn't from Munster? Jones, Murray, James Coughlan's name was being thrown around FFS, Danny Barnes plays one good game and he's being talked about as the next BOD...

Leinster (yes, I am a Leinster fan) win the Heineken Cup via the hardest route in tournament history, yet all the talk is of the Leinster guys missing their chance, not playing well enough to merit a place? Can you honestly tell me that, over the past 12 months, Jennings and McLoughlin have not played better than Denis Leamy and Donnacha Ryan (or Niall Ronan?!)? So why has Ryan got 160 minutes in the last two games when McLoughlin has got 20?
Then you have guys who are patently not up to international class anymore (Horan, Hayes) or guys who never were in the first place (Buckley) are keeping guys who could do a job (Hagan, Wilkinson*) out of the squad.
(*Again, I know he's injured but he was never seriously considered)

I don't want to come across as pro-Leinster, I have blue-tinted glasses, of course I do - but I'm much more concerned about getting the best 30 Irish lads on that plane and the way the selection for the warm-up games has gone, I don't see that happening.

I could go on and on, but I'm developing carpal tunnel syndrome from trying to debunk all this Munster cheerleading.

Just a few points

-> Luke Fitz has been persisted with all season despite being in woeful form.
-> Leo Cullen is being preferred to MOD for World Cup backup despite two awful performances in the warmups and MOD playing exceedingly well all season in POCs absence.
-> Kearney doesn't play a game for 8 months and is reinstated no questions asked to 15.
-> Gordon D'arcy despite poor form all six nations kept his place

There are the same number of eyebrow raising decisions which favour Leinster players. You're being very selective.

Hagz · 17-08-2011 4:06pm

Downlinz wrote: »

Just a few points

-> Luke Fitz has been persisted with all season despite being in woeful form.
-> Leo Cullen is being preferred to MOD for World Cup backup despite two awful performances in the warmups and MOD playing exceedingly well all season in POCs absence.
-> Kearney doesn't play a game for 8 months and is reinstated no questions asked to 15.
-> Gordon D'arcy despite poor form all six nations kept his place

There are the same number of eyebrow raising decisions which favour Leinster players. You're being very selective.

Not that I'm agreeing with totallegend. But those are pretty weak points.

I wouldn't say Kidney's persisted with Fitz seeing as he dropped him completely from the 22 in the 6 nations. And I wouldn't say he's persisting with him now. Who else should he have played in place of Fitz?

Cullen being picked over MOD isn't exactly a big call seeing as Cullen had a good season with Leinster too. Plus, the last time MOD was given a shot, he didn't exactly play better than Cullen is currently playing. And I'd also like to add that Cullen hasn't had two awful performances. He actually had a good game against Scotland.

Kearney being immediately given game-time to recover isn't exactly weird seeing as he's our best 15 and it's a good thing to get him up to speed. In fact, it would have been very strange if Kidney had not given Kearney game-time immediately.

And the D'arcy thing doesn't favor Leinster players because persisting with him kept out McFadden, who is another Leinster player.

phog · 17-08-2011 4:40pm

Hagz wrote: »

Not that I'm agreeing with totallegend. But those are pretty weak points.

I wouldn't say Kidney's persisted with Fitz seeing as he dropped him completely from the 22 in the 6 nations. And I wouldn't say he's persisting with him now. Who else should he have played in place of Fitz?

Cullen being picked over MOD isn't exactly a big call seeing as Cullen had a good season with Leinster too. Plus, the last time MOD was given a shot, he didn't exactly play better than Cullen is currently playing. And I'd also like to add that Cullen hasn't had two awful performances. He actually had a good game against Scotland.

Kearney being immediately given game-time to recover isn't exactly weird seeing as he's our best 15 and it's a good thing to get him up to speed. In fact, it would have been very strange if Kidney had not given Kearney game-time immediately.

And the D'arcy thing doesn't favor Leinster players because persisting with him kept out McFadden, who is another Leinster player.

So to sum it up Kidney seems to go with players that have previously delivered for him rather than where they come from?

Systic · 17-08-2011 4:40pm

Hagz wrote: »

Have a look at your own posts before you go round spouting nonsense. I think you'll find that you yourself are quite "provincially blinded". Not only have you spent a vast amount of time talking about Trimble like he's god, you also spent a lot of time displaying your lack of knowledge when you wrote about Earls this season.

It's a pity your leaving. There are very few Ulster fans who stick around.

But you see thats my point. I am definitely not being biased when I say that Trimble has had a much better season than Fitzgerald and Earls. He has, there the facts. The two best wingers in the country are Trimble and Horgan on current form. Which is why I wonder why so many disagree...maybe its because hes not from Munster.

There is no way anyone could deny that Trimble deserves that shirt on his form this season, yet there seems to be a massive campaign on this forum to get any Munster player onto the 22. All I'm saying is that if for example Spence played for Munster then everyone would be screaming to give him a go at 12 (sure people want Murray starting 9 on much less games and no HC experience and when we have a HC winner in Reddan!!) and Trimble would definitely be talked as our no.1 winger. Its also reflected in the media where Ulster get **** all media coverage in the HC, and even when Leinster win the thing the coverage is much lower key than even Munster HC games. Then you look at RTE, the pundits are George Hook (pro Munster), Frankie Sheehan (devoutly pro Munster), commentary by Donal Lenihan (crazily pro Munster) then another commentator whos neutral, a host whos neutral and one kiwi who leans slightly in favour of Leinster. No one from Ulster, barely someone for Leinster and no one from Connacht

Come on, try deny that Trimble hasn't been a much better winger than Earls all season.

phog · 17-08-2011 4:42pm

Systic wrote: »

But you see thats my point. I am definitely not being biased when I say that Trimble has had a much better season than Fitzgerald and Earls. He has, there the facts. The two best wingers in the country are Trimble and Horgan on current form. Which is why I wonder why so many disagree...maybe its because hes not from Munster.

There is no way anyone could deny that Trimble deserves that shirt on his form this season, yet there seems to be a massive campaign on this forum to get any Munster player onto the 22. All I'm saying is that if for example Spence played for Munster then everyone would be screaming to give him a go at 12 (sure people want Murray starting 12 on much less games and no HC experience!!) and Trimble would definitely be talked as our no.1 winger.

Come on, try deny that Trimble hasn't been a much better winger than Earls all season.

I think you'll find its Scrumhalf they want Murray to travel to the world cup for not as a centre.

Bogsnorkler · 17-08-2011 4:47pm

Systic wrote: »

But you see thats my point. I am definitely not being biased when I say that Trimble has had a much better season than Fitzgerald and Earls. He has, there the facts. The two best wingers in the country are Trimble and Horgan on current form. Which is why I wonder why so many disagree...maybe its because hes not from Munster.

There is no way anyone could deny that Trimble deserves that shirt on his form this season, yet there seems to be a massive campaign on this forum to get any Munster player onto the 22. All I'm saying is that if for example Spence played for Munster then everyone would be screaming to give him a go at 12 (sure people want Murray starting 12 on much less games and no HC experience!!) and Trimble would definitely be talked as our no.1 winger. Its also reflected in the media where Ulster get **** all media coverage in the HC, and even when Leinster win the thing the coverage is much lower key than even Munster HC games. Then you look at RTE, the pundits are George Hook (pro Munster), Frankie Sheehan (devoutly pro Munster), commentary by Donal Lenihan (crazily pro Munster) then another commentator whos neutral, a host whos neutral and one kiwi who leans slightly in favour of Leinster. No one from Ulster, barely someone for Leinster and no one from Connacht

Come on, try deny that Trimble hasn't been a much better winger than Earls all season.

Actually this is a very sensible post, rather than your previous one.
Would agree 100% except

spence is out after an Op and Trimble hasn't done it in the past, and its only this season he's showing what he can do

Systic · 17-08-2011 4:48pm

phog wrote: »

I think you'll find its Scrumhalf they want Murray to travel to the world cup for not as a centre.

I think you'll find that anyone with a sense of cop on would have realised that I meant to say 9. Either you are devoid of common sense or trying to have a swipe, which is it?

phog · 17-08-2011 4:52pm

Systic wrote: »

I think you'll find that anyone with a sense of cop on would have realised that I meant to say 9. Either you are devoid of common sense or trying to have a swipe, which is it?

seeing as you mentioned Spence, Murray and No12 all in the one sentence I wasn't really sure and you can leave the insults out of it please.

Hagz · 17-08-2011 4:55pm

Systic wrote: »

But you see thats my point. I am definitely not being biased when I say that Trimble has had a much better season than Fitzgerald and Earls. He has, there the facts. The two best wingers in the country are Trimble and Horgan on current form. Which is why I wonder why so many disagree...maybe its because hes not from Munster.

Okay, are you able to finish a point without leaving a comment like that? People are disagreeing with you because they have different opinions about who has had the better season. The way you have gone on about it, it's as though Trimble has had a vastly better season than Earls, which I don't think he has. I am a Leinster fan so the fact that Earls wears a red jersey means jack sh*t in terms of why I think he has had a better season than Trimble. I think Earls was great in the 6N, and has grown as a player this season from getting consistent game-time at 11. Trimble has had a good season. Better one than Fitz. I don't agree that Horgan has had a better season than Earls however. I think Earls has had the best season of all the wingers.

And you do appear to be biased because instead of saying " I think Trimble should be starting because he has looked better than Earls", you have said "Trimble is miles ahead of Earls, and Earls has had an anonymous season". Plus, the fact that you keep ending you points with provincial comments, would lead me to believe that you take players provinces into account when you are judging players.

There is no way anyone could deny that Trimble deserves that shirt on his form this season, yet there seems to be a massive campaign on this forum to get any Munster player onto the 22. All I'm saying is that if for example Spence played for Munster then everyone would be screaming to give him a go at 12 (sure people want Murray starting 12 on much less games and no HC experience!!) and Trimble would definitely be talked as our no.1 winger.

There you go again with provincial crap. Firstly, many people wanted Spence to be a part of the squad, but unfortunately he injured himself. Secondly, I haven't seen anyone who want's Murray at 12??

Come on, try deny that Trimble hasn't been a much better winger than Earls all season.

???! Guy, I have done so a couple of times! Do you just skim through people's responses without reading them? Assuming they haven't put forward valid points. From my perspective it seems as though when you say "all season", you really mean the last two games. Go watch Earls in the 6N, he was good. Whereas Trimble barley featured due to injury. Go look at Earls' performances at 11 for Munster. The ML final, the game against Brive, he has been very impressive. They both have the same strike record this season, so it's not like Trimble is blowing Earls out the water.

The most shocking thing though, that comes through in all you arguments,is that you think Ulster players get a hard time here. That really annoys me because it just isn't true. Everyone is so delighted with the season Ulster has had. And everyone is so impressed with the talent Ulster are bringing through. People wanted Spence in the squad. Many people have talked about how good Trimble is. And There are still people who think Ferris should start ahead of SOB.

Systic · 17-08-2011 5:23pm

A few reasons why Trimble is better than Earls this season

1. Hes scored 6 tries in 17 games to Earl's 6 tries in 22 games. Trimble got double the amount of tries that Earls got in the Heineken Cup despite playing the same number of games. His strike rate is actually much better than Earls it is not the same.

2. He is much more of a physical presence and is an astonishing 1.5stone heavier than Keith Earls despite not lacking in pace (from what I can see he seems actually faster than Earls). We saw how Earls was shrugged off tackles against France (not recent game) and South Africa due to his smaller frame.

3. Andrew Trimble has much more of a rugby brain than Keith Earls. Witness Keith Earls incrediblly naive mistake of chipping ahead when he had McFadden outside him in for a certain try.

4. Andrew Trimble is much more assured defensively than Earls (see point 2)

5. This season Trimble, not Earls, is the one who seems much more likely to break through tackles. Trimble has shown incredible power since coming back from his injury.

6. Trimble is much stronger mentally than Earls. Earls is liable to fall apart when under serious pressure and this could easily be the case at a WC in NZ. (see Lions tour)

7. Trimble is a lot more experienced than Earls and much more familiar with the likes of Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Reddan, Kearney

8. Trimble has been in better form than Earls this season. Trimble has looked threatening and was one of the star performers in the HC. Earls meanwhile didn't even shine in the Amlin.

9. Trimble is a much, much better passer of the ball than Earls.

10. Trimble's positioning is vastly superiors to Earls (remember how much of a wrap Trimble got when Leamy told him to go inside in France 07? those times are long gone)

11. Trimble has improved his only real weakness (kicking). Earls meanwhile is prone to defensive lapses , doesn't have a rugby brain, is a poor passer (overthrows passes) and not as strong mentally.

Trimble has simply been a better player all season. Earls has looked very ordinary, in fact, he is behind Shane Horgan, Craig Gilroy, Fionn Carr, Trimble, Bowe and David Kearney in the try strike rate in the ML!!

CatFromHue · 17-08-2011 5:33pm

you forgot reason No.12 Trimble has God on his side!

Hagz · 17-08-2011 5:41pm

Systic wrote: »

A few reasons why Trimble is better than Earls this season

1. Hes scored 6 tries in 17 games to Earl's 6 tries in 22 games. Trimble got double the amount of tries that Earls got in the Heineken Cup despite playing the same number of games. His strike rate is actually much better than Earls it is not the same.
They've both scored 6 tries in 18 games for their province. Earls has played more games at Ireland sure, but in different positions. I was talking provincially.

2. He is much more of a physical presence and is an astonishing 1.5stone heavier than Keith Earls despite not lacking in pace (from what I can see he seems actually faster than Earls). We saw how Earls was shrugged off tackles against France (not recent game) and South Africa due to his smaller frame.
I will agree that Trimble is more physical, hence he wears 14 on his back.

3. Andrew Trimble has much more of a rugby brain than Keith Earls. Witness Keith Earls incrediblly naive mistake of chipping ahead when he had McFadden outside him in for a certain try.
That's an empty statement until you put forward an argument to prove it. I agree with Earl's decision to chip He couldn't pass it to McFadden, he couldn't make it himself, if he went to ground it could have been lost, so he went to chip ahead for McFadden. It was just unlucky that it was blocked. I would've said Earls has more of a rugby brain. Having the ability to play in numerous positions and having better footballing skills.

4. Andrew Trimble is much more assured defensively than Earls (see point 2)
Where is the evidence for this though. Earls was very assured on Saturday in the most difficult defensive positions.

5. This season Trimble, not Earls, is the one who seems much more likely to break through tackles. Trimble has shown incredible power since coming back from his injury.
Yes, to break through tackles I agree. But Earls has looked much better at counter-attacking and getting around defenders.

6. Trimble is much stronger mentally than Earls. Earls is liable to fall apart when under serious pressure and this could easily be the case at a WC in NZ. (see Lions tour)
What a BS statement. Nuff said.

7. Trimble is a lot more experienced than Earls and much more familiar with the likes of Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Reddan, Kearney
Yes, Trimble has played more games for Ireland, but Earls has played more minutes. A considerable amount more. So I don't think there is enough of a gulf in experience for it to be a talking point.

8. Trimble has been in better form than Earls this season. Trimble has looked threatening and was one of the star performers in the HC. Earls meanwhile didn't even shine in the Amlin.
Earls did shine in the Amlin, he was electric against Brive. And to say Trimble was one of the star performers in the HC is a little bit over the top, but he did look very threatening.

9. Trimble is a much, much better passer of the ball than Earls.
Evidence?

10. Trimble's positioning is vastly superiors to Earls (remember how much of a wrap Trimble got when Leamy told Trimble to go inside in France 07? those times are long gone)
Evidence?

11. Trimble's has improved his only real weakness (kicking). Earls meanwhile is prone to defensive lapses , doesn't have a rugby brain, is a poor passer (overthrows passes) and not as strong mentally.

Trimble has simply been a better player all season. Earls has looked very ordinary, in fact, he is behind Shane Horgan, Craig Gilroy, Fionn Carr, Trimble, Bowe and David Kearney in the try strike rate in the ML!!

TBH, you're just throwing empty comments my way. And I don't think it's fair. Because Trimble has been fantastic, and should be praised, but you are taking away from that by spouting utter drivel. I would participate and say that Earls is a better passer in the rain, and that Earls has better depth perception, and that Earls can pass better of his left etc, but such comments are useless and solve nothing.

I think Earls has been better and that's that. I still think Trimble is fantastic and should travel, but I don't think he should start. You can put that down to the fact that I'm incredibly biased or because I hate the men up north. I don't care, you're beyond ridiculous in your argumentative style.

rockman15 · 17-08-2011 5:46pm

Systic wrote: »

A few reasons why Trimble is better than Earls this season

1. Hes scored 6 tries in 17 games to Earl's 6 tries in 22 games. Trimble got double the amount of tries that Earls got in the Heineken Cup despite playing the same number of games. His strike rate is actually much better than Earls it is not the same.

2. He is much more of a physical presence and is an astonishing 1.5stone heavier than Keith Earls despite not lacking in pace (from what I can see he seems actually faster than Earls). We saw how Earls was shrugged off tackles against France (not recent game) and South Africa due to his smaller frame.

3. Andrew Trimble has much more of a rugby brain than Keith Earls. Witness Keith Earls incrediblly naive mistake of chipping ahead when he had McFadden outside him in for a certain try.

4. Andrew Trimble is much more assured defensively than Earls (see point 2)

5. This season Trimble, not Earls, is the one who seems much more likely to break through tackles. Trimble has shown incredible power since coming back from his injury.

6. Trimble is much stronger mentally than Earls. Earls is liable to fall apart when under serious pressure and this could easily be the case at a WC in NZ. (see Lions tour)

7. Trimble is a lot more experienced than Earls and much more familiar with the likes of Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Reddan, Kearney

8. Trimble has been in better form than Earls this season. Trimble has looked threatening and was one of the star performers in the HC. Earls meanwhile didn't even shine in the Amlin.

9. Trimble is a much, much better passer of the ball than Earls.

10. Trimble's positioning is vastly superiors to Earls (remember how much of a wrap Trimble got when Leamy told him to go inside in France 07? those times are long gone)

11. Trimble has improved his only real weakness (kicking). Earls meanwhile is prone to defensive lapses , doesn't have a rugby brain, is a poor passer (overthrows passes) and not as strong mentally.

Trimble has simply been a better player all season. Earls has looked very ordinary, in fact, he is behind Shane Horgan, Craig Gilroy, Fionn Carr, Trimble, Bowe and David Kearney in the try strike rate in the ML!!

just about spot on, except Earls is a better open field runner and counter attacker (ball in hand). We need that against australia.

phog · 17-08-2011 5:50pm

Systic wrote: »

A few reasons why Trimble is better than Earls this season

1. Hes scored 6 tries in 17 games to Earl's 6 tries in 22 games. Trimble got double the amount of tries that Earls got in the Heineken Cup despite playing the same number of games. His strike rate is actually much better than Earls it is not the same.

2. He is much more of a physical presence and is an astonishing 1.5stone heavier than Keith Earls despite not lacking in pace (from what I can see he seems actually faster than Earls). We saw how Earls was shrugged off tackles against France (not recent game) and South Africa due to his smaller frame.

3. Andrew Trimble has much more of a rugby brain than Keith Earls. Witness Keith Earls incrediblly naive mistake of chipping ahead when he had McFadden outside him in for a certain try.

4. Andrew Trimble is much more assured defensively than Earls (see point 2)

5. This season Trimble, not Earls, is the one who seems much more likely to break through tackles. Trimble has shown incredible power since coming back from his injury.

6. Trimble is much stronger mentally than Earls. Earls is liable to fall apart when under serious pressure and this could easily be the case at a WC in NZ. (see Lions tour)

7. Trimble is a lot more experienced than Earls and much more familiar with the likes of Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Reddan, Kearney

8. Trimble has been in better form than Earls this season. Trimble has looked threatening and was one of the star performers in the HC. Earls meanwhile didn't even shine in the Amlin.

9. Trimble is a much, much better passer of the ball than Earls.

10. Trimble's positioning is vastly superiors to Earls (remember how much of a wrap Trimble got when Leamy told him to go inside in France 07? those times are long gone)

11. Trimble has improved his only real weakness (kicking). Earls meanwhile is prone to defensive lapses , doesn't have a rugby brain, is a poor passer (overthrows passes) and not as strong mentally.

Trimble has simply been a better player all season. Earls has looked very ordinary, in fact, he is behind Shane Horgan, Craig Gilroy, Fionn Carr, Trimble, Bowe and David Kearney in the try strike rate in the ML!!

All that might be true in your opinion but then again I could say something simialr to show that Earls is a better player. It's very hard to compare two players like you have jsut done as both have played against differnent opposition.
Both are fine players and after the 2 games so far both can feel hard done by if not selected.

Systic · 17-08-2011 5:54pm

rockman15 wrote: »

just about spot on, except Earls is a better open field runner and counter attacker (ball in hand). We need that against australia.

This season Trimble has looked much better in open field. He has made some incredible breaks. Earls tends to just kick the ball ahead.

GerM · 17-08-2011 6:03pm

I would have Trimble in my starting team for Ireland right now, probably ahead of Bowe who has done less than both Trimble and Earls over the past season. But it's hard to argue with the case put forward by Systic, Hagz. Some of the points you contest are true in my opinion.
Trimble is an average passer but I don't think much of Earls as a passer at all hence he's a perfect 11. Earls displays more individual brilliance than creating. I don't think I'd see Earls cut back into a gap and offload the way Trimble did to Kearney when he made the 40m break against France.

There's some truth in the mental strength argument. We all saw the Lions and Earls admits himself that he gets very nervous and can lack confidence in himself.

Earls is better in the tight situations but overall as a counter attacker, I think Trimble is his equal at least. Look at the length of the field try he scored against Bath. That was probably the finest individual counter attacking try I've seen in the HEC.

On the negative side, Systic, I've seen little to suggest that Trimble has improved his kicking. I don't like seeing him put boot to ball.

It's all academic for me though as I think both of them should be starting. Bowe is going to have 80 minutes match time and very limited training under his belt in 3 months going into a WC. Trimble and Earls are both quality wingers and Bowe can cover several positions from the bench.

Systic · 17-08-2011 6:12pm

A few reasons why Trimble is better than Earls this season

1. Hes scored 6 tries in 17 games to Earl's 6 tries in 22 games. Trimble got double the amount of tries that Earls got in the Heineken Cup despite playing the same number of games. His strike rate is actually much better than Earls it is not the same.
They've both scored 6 tries in 18 games for their province. Earls has played more games at Ireland sure, but in different positions. I was talking provincially.

Earls played all those games for Ireland on the wing...

2. He is much more of a physical presence and is an astonishing 1.5stone heavier than Keith Earls despite not lacking in pace (from what I can see he seems actually faster than Earls). We saw how Earls was shrugged off tackles against France (not recent game) and South Africa due to his smaller frame.
I will agree that Trimble is more physical, hence he wears 14 on his back.

O.K

3. Andrew Trimble has much more of a rugby brain than Keith Earls. Witness Keith Earls incrediblly naive mistake of chipping ahead when he had McFadden outside him in for a certain try.
That's an empty statement until you put forward an argument to prove it. I agree with Earl's decision to chip He couldn't pass it to McFadden, he couldn't make it himself, if he went to ground it could have been lost, so he went to chip ahead for McFadden. It was just unlucky that it was blocked. I would've said Earls has more of a rugby brain. Having the ability to play in numerous positions and having better footballing skills.

He could have easily passed to McFadden, he was in front of the following player and a flat pass would have put McFadden in. I'm not even going to debate that one, anyone could see that. Earls can't play in numerous positions, he is terrible at 13 and cant play 15 either. He can play 11, meanwhile Trimble can play 12,13,11,14. Also define better footballing skills because Trimble is a better passer and has better hands (Earls knocks on an awful lot). Earls is probably a better kicker though, probably.

4. Andrew Trimble is much more assured defensively than Earls (see point 2)
Where is the evidence for this though. Earls was very assured on Saturday in the most difficult defensive positions.

I gave evidence in my last post in point 2. He was also brushed off by Sackey of all players in a pathetic attempt of a tackle in the HC.

5. This season Trimble, not Earls, is the one who seems much more likely to break through tackles. Trimble has shown incredible power since coming back from his injury.
Yes, to break through tackles I agree. But Earls has looked much better at counter-attacking and getting around defenders.

Really? Then why has Trimble made vastly more breaks than Earls has this season?

6. Trimble is much stronger mentally than Earls. Earls is liable to fall apart when under serious pressure and this could easily be the case at a WC in NZ. (see Lions tour)
What a BS statement. Nuff said.

No its not, Earls has himself admitted he suffers from confidence issues.

7. Trimble is a lot more experienced than Earls and much more familiar with the likes of Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Reddan, Kearney
Yes, Trimble has played more games for Ireland, but Earls has played more minutes. A considerable amount more. So I don't think there is enough of a gulf in experience for it to be a talking point

complete lie, Trimble has played much more minutes than Keith Earls

8. Trimble has been in better form than Earls this season. Trimble has looked threatening and was one of the star performers in the HC. Earls meanwhile didn't even shine in the Amlin.
Earls did shine in the Amlin, he was electric against Brive. And to say Trimble was one of the star performers in the HC is a little bit over the top, but he did look very threatening.

Oh I forgot Earls had a good game against the might of Brive :rolleyes: Trimble was definitely one of the star performers of the HC, and your right he looked very threatening throughout. How on earth can you say he wasn't a star performer when he was one of the top try scorers and got one of the greatest tries ever seen in the HC?!?!

9. Trimble is a much, much better passer of the ball than Earls.
Evidence?

Trimble is regarded as a fine passer of the ball hence why he played so much rugby at 12 and 13. Earls has a very poor pass and regularly overthrows passes (a recent example was just last weekend). This is one of the main reasons why so many people did not believe the Earls at 13 experiment would work.

Evidence?

The evidence is Trimble not being caught out once in the last two seasons. Earls was exposed badly against South Africa and France (not recent) on the wing and also in the HC against Toulon.

Hagz · 17-08-2011 6:58pm

Systic wrote: »

Earls played all those games for Ireland on the wing...
No he played full-back against England and he played centre against France

He could have easily passed to McFadden, he was in front of the following player and a flat pass would have put McFadden in. I'm not even going to debate that one, anyone could see that. Earls can't play in numerous positions, he is terrible at 13 and cant play 15 either. He can play 11, meanwhile Trimble can play 12,13,11,14. Also define better footballing skills because Trimble is a better passer and has better hands (Earls knocks on an awful lot). Earls is probably a better kicker though, probably.

I disagree. I don't think he could have passed. And by footballing skills I mean grubbers and chips etc. Have a look at his newport try, the kids got GAA skills.

complete lie, Trimble has played much more minutes than Keith Earls
Trimble has played around 950 mins, Earls has played around 1050 mins..

Oh I forgot Earls had a good game against the might of Brive :rolleyes: Trimble was definitely one of the star performers of the HC, and your right he looked very threatening throughout. How on earth can you say he wasn't a star performer when he was one of the top try scorers and got one of the greatest tries ever seen in the HC?!?!

He was'nt in the top ten try scorer list, so I'm not sure what you mean by one of the top try scorers...That try against Bath was in 2009/2010 season (if that's the one you mean by greatest ever seen), not this season passed...He scored 4 tries this seaon in the HC. 2 of them against Aironi...

Without being rude Systic. Im afraid an ignore is in order here. Our debate is clogging up this thread and Im too tired of it at this stage. See this is the problem when you have such strenght in depth. Just because I say I want SOB over Fez doesn't mean I dont rate Fez. Similarly when I say I want Earls over Trimble, Its not because I dont rate Trimble. I'm trying to be rational but it feels like you aren't. For instance "Earls is a terrible 13" "he knocks on an awful lot" etc.

I'm a little dissapointied so many don't think Earls should start because for me its a no brainer. Hopefully people's memories are jogged on Saturday.

phog · 17-08-2011 7:20pm

Hagz wrote: »

Without being rude Systic. Im afraid an ignore is in order here. Our debate is clogging up this thread and Im too tired of it at this stage. See this is the problem when you have such strenght in depth. Just because I say I want SOB over Fez doesn't mean I dont rate Fez. Similarly when I say I want Earls over Trimble, Its not because I dont rate Trimble. I'm trying to be rational but it feels like you aren't. For instance "Earls is a terrible 13" "he knocks on an awful lot" etc.

I'm a little dissapointied so many don't think Earls should start because for me its a no brainer. Hopefully people's memories are jogged on Saturday.

Decent enough analysis, like I'd like ROG to start but have 100% regard and confidence in Sexton.

wixfjord · 17-08-2011 7:26pm

totallegend wrote: »

More directed at Cpt_blackbeard who 'liked' your post, tbh, not at you.

I'm just sick of the Munster favouritism on these threads, and the total lack of consistency applied to people's thought processes, which is fine for a random internet discussion, but when it starts seeping into the mainstream media and, by all evidence, into DK's selections, it gets my goat something shocking:

Examples:
"Murray and Jones HAVE to go to the World Cup"; despite having about 20 senior games between them. We're told they're young, they have potential, could add a spark etc etc. Where is the clamour for Eoin O'Malley, Craig Gilroy, Dominic Ryan or Nevin Spence*? Young guys who have shown bags more actual ability on the pitch?

(*I know Spence was officially ruled out of the 43-man squad, but prior to that there was no media frenzy to get him)

"Earls is in possession of the #11 shirt and deserves to hold on to it" despite Trimble being our best back in the warm-ups so far. Well, Rory Best is in possession of the #2 shirt and is playing well, Jerry Flannery has 40 minutes game time in the last year but the consensus here is that he has to be starting hooker in New Zealand. Where's the consistency in that?

"Geordan Murphy will have had too little game to be risked"; see above re Flannery, where's the consistency?

Answer me this; name me one World Cup "bolter" who isn't from Munster? Jones, Murray, James Coughlan's name was being thrown around FFS, Danny Barnes plays one good game and he's being talked about as the next BOD...

Leinster (yes, I am a Leinster fan) win the Heineken Cup via the hardest route in tournament history, yet all the talk is of the Leinster guys missing their chance, not playing well enough to merit a place? Can you honestly tell me that, over the past 12 months, Jennings and McLoughlin have not played better than Denis Leamy and Donnacha Ryan (or Niall Ronan?!)? So why has Ryan got 160 minutes in the last two games when McLoughlin has got 20?
Then you have guys who are patently not up to international class anymore (Horan, Hayes) or guys who never were in the first place (Buckley) are keeping guys who could do a job (Hagan, Wilkinson*) out of the squad.
(*Again, I know he's injured but he was never seriously considered)

I don't want to come across as pro-Leinster, I have blue-tinted glasses, of course I do - but I'm much more concerned about getting the best 30 Irish lads on that plane and the way the selection for the warm-up games has gone, I don't see that happening.

I could go on and on, but I'm developing carpal tunnel syndrome from trying to debunk all this Munster cheerleading.

Someone set a reminder to give this post of the year.
Great post.

danthefan · 17-08-2011 7:27pm

Hagz wrote: »

Without being rude Systic. Im afraid an ignore is in order here. Our debate is clogging up this thread and Im too tired of it at this stage. See this is the problem when you have such strenght in depth. Just because I say I want SOB over Fez doesn't mean I dont rate Fez. Similarly when I say I want Earls over Trimble, Its not because I dont rate Trimble. I'm trying to be rational but it feels like you aren't. For instance "Earls is a terrible 13" "he knocks on an awful lot" etc.

I'm a little dissapointied so many don't think Earls should start because for me its a no brainer. Hopefully people's memories are jogged on Saturday.

I have no problem if Earls starts but I think Trimble has shown such form on the wing recently that he could be in line to start ahead of Earls, this weekend will definitely be interesting.

Sean Bateman · 17-08-2011 7:34pm

Hagz wrote: »

I'm a little dissapointied so many don't think Earls should start because for me its a no brainer

It may be a no brainer for you but that isn't the case for a lot of rugby fans.

Personally I don't rate Earls as an international class back at all. He's a good finisher and he runs well in broken play but he displays almost zero rugby intelligence or subtlety in my view. His tunnel vision on Saturday when he had Fergus McFadden inside was a prime example of what I'm talking about. He definitely doesn't have the subtlety to play at centre.

Bowe and Trimble should be the wingers with Earls as an impact sub for late in the game when things might be stretched.

PhatPiggins · 17-08-2011 7:37pm

Its surely Bowe who is under the most pressure at this stage

danthefan · 17-08-2011 7:49pm

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Its surely Bowe who is under the most pressure at this stage

Not a chance.

Sean Bateman · 17-08-2011 7:57pm

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Its surely Bowe who is under the most pressure at this stage

Absolutely not.

Bowe's will be the third name on the teamsheet (after Drico's and POC's).

uberwolf · 17-08-2011 8:08pm

Downlinz wrote: »

Just a few points

-> Luke Fitz has been persisted with all season despite being in woeful form.
-> Leo Cullen is being preferred to MOD for World Cup backup despite two awful performances in the warmups and MOD playing exceedingly well all season in POCs absence.
-> Kearney doesn't play a game for 8 months and is reinstated no questions asked to 15.
-> Gordon D'arcy despite poor form all six nations kept his place

There are the same number of eyebrow raising decisions which favour Leinster players. You're being very selective.

Luke Fitz - yep, I'd have asked for him to dropped tbh. Trimble must have been tearing his hair out.
Cullen - domestic season superior to that of MOD imo this year. Additionally I would say that in DOC absence 18 months ago Cullen played very well in the 6 nations. Something MOD has not done for the Irish side, again imo.
Kearney - has not been reinstated. Has and should be given every chance given how poorly all fit alternatives performed in the 6 nations. Neither Earls nor Fitzgerald have put their hand up at 15 for club or country.
D'Arcy - given that with a full compliment of fit players at midfield and D'Arcy being potentially absent the best alternative we've found is switching BOD in one suggests to me that that we have no real alternative at 12.

My back 3 is Bowe, Trimble and Kearney at the mo.

Hagz · 17-08-2011 8:12pm

uberwolf wrote: »

Luke Fitz - yep, I'd have asked for him to dropped tbh. Trimble must have been tearing his hair out.

Trimble was injured, and then when Trimble was fit Fitz was dropped....

uberwolf · 17-08-2011 8:26pm

Hagz wrote: »

Trimble was injured, and then when Trimble was fit Fitz was dropped....

I had a feeling that may have been the case. It was McFadden who was missing out.

GerM · 17-08-2011 8:28pm

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Its surely Bowe who is under the most pressure at this stage

Glad to see someone else thinks it. It should be but it won't be the case unless he is injured for a big game and Trimble and Earls both perform very well in his absence. The guy isn't nearly as threatening this year as he has been in the past.

totallegend · 17-08-2011 8:30pm

Downlinz wrote: »

Just a few points

-> Luke Fitz has been persisted with all season despite being in woeful form.
-> Leo Cullen is being preferred to MOD for World Cup backup despite two awful performances in the warmups and MOD playing exceedingly well all season in POCs absence.
-> Kearney doesn't play a game for 8 months and is reinstated no questions asked to 15.
-> Gordon D'arcy despite poor form all six nations kept his place

There are the same number of eyebrow raising decisions which favour Leinster players. You're being very selective.

No, I don't think I am. If you read my post, I'm advocating Ulster players just as much as Leinster. The Ulster system is churning out young players at a fantastic rate yet there is very little discussion about them while we've been bombarded with hype about Jones & Murray.

Ardillaun · 17-08-2011 8:37pm

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Absolutely not.

Bowe's will be the third name on the teamsheet (after Drico's and POC's).

My first name on the sheet would be Mike Ross, without whom we shouldn't bother going. Bowe offers more than Earls or Trimble. He's one of the best wingers ever to play for Ireland.

MungBean · 17-08-2011 8:38pm

GerM wrote: »

Glad to see someone else thinks it. It should be but it won't be the case unless he is injured for a big game and Trimble and Earls both perform very well in his absence. The guy isn't nearly as threatening this year as he has been in the past.

If Trimble and Earls perform on Saturday and Bowe doesnt look his best against England or USA if he starts then Kidney cant start him against Aussies. I know Kidney is odd at times but in the world cup against a team like Australia you dont play someone who might perform over someone who is performing.

The way I see it is the spots are Earls and Trimble’s until Bowe claims his and to do that he needs a good performance against England and/or USA in sept. If he looks average in either he stays where he is at third choice winger.

phog · 17-08-2011 8:46pm

totallegend wrote: »

More directed at Cpt_blackbeard who 'liked' your post, tbh, not at you.

I'm just sick of the Munster favouritism on these threads, and the total lack of consistency applied to people's thought processes, which is fine for a random internet discussion, but when it starts seeping into the mainstream media and, by all evidence, into DK's selections, it gets my goat something shocking:

Examples:
"Murray and Jones HAVE to go to the World Cup"; despite having about 20 senior games between them. We're told they're young, they have potential, could add a spark etc etc. Where is the clamour for Eoin O'Malley, Craig Gilroy, Dominic Ryan or Nevin Spence*? Young guys who have shown bags more actual ability on the pitch?

(*I know Spence was officially ruled out of the 43-man squad, but prior to that there was no media frenzy to get him)

"Earls is in possession of the #11 shirt and deserves to hold on to it" despite Trimble being our best back in the warm-ups so far. Well, Rory Best is in possession of the #2 shirt and is playing well, Jerry Flannery has 40 minutes game time in the last year but the consensus here is that he has to be starting hooker in New Zealand. Where's the consistency in that?

"Geordan Murphy will have had too little game to be risked"; see above re Flannery, where's the consistency?

Answer me this; name me one World Cup "bolter" who isn't from Munster? Jones, Murray, James Coughlan's name was being thrown around FFS, Danny Barnes plays one good game and he's being talked about as the next BOD...

Leinster (yes, I am a Leinster fan) win the Heineken Cup via the hardest route in tournament history, yet all the talk is of the Leinster guys missing their chance, not playing well enough to merit a place? Can you honestly tell me that, over the past 12 months, Jennings and McLoughlin have not played better than Denis Leamy and Donnacha Ryan (or Niall Ronan?!)? So why has Ryan got 160 minutes in the last two games when McLoughlin has got 20?
Then you have guys who are patently not up to international class anymore (Horan, Hayes) or guys who never were in the first place (Buckley) are keeping guys who could do a job (Hagan, Wilkinson*) out of the squad.
(*Again, I know he's injured but he was never seriously considered)

I don't want to come across as pro-Leinster, I have blue-tinted glasses, of course I do - but I'm much more concerned about getting the best 30 Irish lads on that plane and the way the selection for the warm-up games has gone, I don't see that happening.

I could go on and on, but I'm developing carpal tunnel syndrome from trying to debunk all this Munster cheerleading.

I replied to some of this earlier but on re-reading it I think getting annoyed with posters from Munster having an opinion that is different to yours because of your fustration of the Irish management team or to be percise Declan Kidney.

BTW, Jones came from Leinster, did he not and as far as I know never played with Munster while Kidney was in charge.

CatFromHue · 17-08-2011 8:49pm

i think totalegend was tipped over the edge by the ireland team to face connacht that has 10 players currently with munster

phog · 17-08-2011 9:00pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

i think totalegend was tipped over the edge by the ireland team to face connacht that has 10 players currently with munster

and that leads him to have a rant at a perceived Munster favouritism on this forum, god help us all.

totallegend · 17-08-2011 9:02pm

phog wrote: »

I replied to some of this earlier but on re-reading it I think getting annoyed with posters from Munster having an opinion that is different to yours because of your fustration of the Irish management team or to be percise Declan Kidney.

That's exactly what it is!! Careful, or you'll set me off again

Listen, like I said, this is an internet discussion forum and if we all agreed, there'd be no point in visiting here so I like hearing other opinions, but some of them just make no sense and are clearly written from a south-west point of view.

It's when the off-the-wall ideas of some of the one-eyed Munster fans suddenly manifest themselves in actual squad selection that I get frustrated.

Bogsnorkler · 17-08-2011 9:46pm

totallegend wrote: »

That's exactly what it is!! Careful, or you'll set me off again

Listen, like I said, this is an internet discussion forum and if we all agreed, there'd be no point in visiting here so I like hearing other opinions, but some of them just make no sense and are clearly written from a south-west point of view.

It's when the off-the-wall ideas of some of the one-eyed Munster fans suddenly manifest themselves in actual squad selection that I get frustrated.

Personally I think our back row should be Axel, Quinnie and Wallace.

What??

Irish wings for World Cup

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