Garda Immigration to replaced by Civil Servants

An Udaras

The simple answer is from speaking to two friends currently serving with GNIB one a Sgt and the other a Detective Garda that extremely violent persons presenting themselves at an immigration inspection point is a rareity even if they have been refused and if on the occasion of it happening they call the Airport Police emergency line for immediate assistance not only due to lack of numbers in GNIB due to retirements and non replacements over the past two years but Garda Management have instructed them that there role is to

Facilitate Lawful Immigration

which to the lads means don't let there be queues.

Garda Management have instructed GNIB members to call Airport Police to deal with disruptive passengers as they do not want them leaving the booths as it would have a negative effect on queues.

Walk through Garda Immigration any day and look at amount of Guards on duty and if as ERU suggets a passenger kicks off one Single guard could find it very difficult to control & restrain his colleagues would of course jump out. Hence bringing more members from the booths against what Garda Management want.

Due to the controlled environment of an airports these incident are rare you should know this as you claim to have been a Guard in Dublin Airport in your past.

Eru

Sorry can you clarify which if these your claiming:

An Udaras wrote: »

they call the Airport Police emergency line for immediate assistance

An Udaras wrote: »

Garda Management have instructed GNIB members to call Airport Police to deal with disruptive passengers

In A, its plausible that non Garda aid can be requested. certainly in shopping centres or on public transport for example security assist Gardai from time to time when need be, its not that rare yet and is allowed for in law. Sometimes even passersby will lend a hand but sadly thats now taking a back seat to recording a Garda being assaulted on your phone for Youtube.

That's however a far cry from the second part which suggests that we have a situation where members of the national police force call a support agency to deal with violent crime while they sit there and watch.

A, That would be an appalling image for tourists,
B, It would be negligent for a police officer to stand idle by and
C, Theres no allowance in law for such an event. Gardai cannot hand a crime or suspect to a non Garda, its a one way system.

For the second theory to even try and work it would be GNIB officer calling AP, AP detaining the person pending Garda arrival (akin to a citizens arrest), Garda from Dublin airport arriving and arresting the person.If that was the current situation then by all means replace GNIB with civil servants.

An Udaras

Eru wrote: »

Sorry can you clarify which if these your claiming:





In A, its plausible that non Garda aid can be requested. certainly in shopping centres or on public transport for example security assist Gardai from time to time when need be, its not that rare yet and is allowed for in law. Sometimes even passersby will lend a hand but sadly thats now taking a back seat to recording a Garda being assaulted on your phone for Youtube.

That's however a far cry from the second part which suggests that we have a situation where members of the national police force call a support agency to deal with violent crime while they sit there and watch.

A, That would be an appalling image for tourists,
B, It would be negligent for a police officer to stand idle by and
C, Theres no allowance in law for such an event. Gardai cannot hand a crime or suspect to a non Garda, its a one way system.

For the second theory to even try and work it would be GNIB officer calling AP, AP detaining the person pending Garda arrival (akin to a citizens arrest), Garda from Dublin airport arriving and arresting the person.If that was the current situation then by all means replace GNIB with civil servants.

Well the Above happens. There was also a recent case where an assault on a female was reported to two members of the GNIB and their response was we our immigration officers theirs nothing they can do!? This happened in front of them in their area. (thankfully the above scenario is a more a reflection on the two individuals then all of the GNIB who are generally more then willing to help.

Airport Police responded to the above incident while the two chaps stayed in their booth no interest in it continuing to check passports.

So if civilians take over it will be the Airport Polis responding to these shouts and investigating whether an arrest is prudent.

veetwin

An Udaras wrote: »

Garda Management have instructed GNIB members to call Airport Police to deal with disruptive passengers as they do not want them leaving the booths as it would have a negative effect on queues.

Nonsense.

Eru

An Udaras wrote: »

Well the Above happens. There was also a recent case where an assault on a female was reported to two members of the GNIB and their response was we our immigration officers theirs nothing they can do!? This happened in front of them in their area. (thankfully the above scenario is a more a reflection on the two individuals then all of the GNIB who are generally more then willing to help.

Airport Police responded to the above incident while the two chaps stayed in their booth no interest in it continuing to check passports.

So if civilians take over it will be the Airport Polis responding to these shouts and investigating whether an arrest is prudent.

Ok whatever, I'm not going to bother anymore :rolleyes:

veetwin

An Udaras wrote: »

Airport Police responded to the above incident while the two chaps stayed in their booth no interest in it continuing to check passports. do the job they are supposed to do

FYP

baalthor

Eru wrote: »

That's however a far cry from the second part which suggests that we have a situation where members of the national police force call a support agency to deal with violent crime while they sit there and watch.

A, That would be an appalling image for tourists,

How would they know?

They'd just see a guy in a suit calling in a guy wearing a uniform with the word "Police" written on it.
It's not like in most other airports where the passport checkers are in full uniform.

Eru

baalthor wrote: »

How would they know?

They'd just see a guy in a suit calling in a guy wearing a uniform with the word "Police" written on it.
It's not like in most other airports where the passport checkers are in full uniform.

People tend to assume that its the same as their own country thus the questions about our guns and lack of regional / local police forces.

That aside, don't you see anything wrong with the image you just painted? The cops the guy in a suit watching and the guy with 'police' on his uniform that responds isn't

An Udaras

Exactly to a tourist or most members of the public there would see no difference.

In the UK it's Common for the like of the MET,COL Police & BTP to attend at an incident.

A uniformed Airport Police Officer would attract no more attention then a guard within an airport setting.

If an Airport Police Officer currently attends an incident in support of Customs which is a another law enforcement agency within the airport to deal with a disruptive passenger/assault etc... And that doesn't cause a public outcry of complaints from tourists then I don't think people would give two glances if the APS where in attendance at present or in a future civilianised Immigration

ERU for whatever Reason you don't recognize them with their Police title and that's fine as its your own opinion but thankfully the Oireachtas seems to...

The UK is now a complete civilianised border control service, there model may be far from perfect but it seem the Irish State are simply looking at a more flexible model for our border management here. Don't forget it's only two years since 2hour queues where common in Dublin Airports EU Immigration as guards where in happy with allowances being removed now what kind of experience is that for visitors to our country?

veetwin

An Udaras wrote: »

The UK is now a complete civilianised border control service, there model may be far from perfect

It is also widely regarded as a complete and utter cluster fcuk...So much so that there are strong rumours around about the Police taking over in some quarters

First Aid Ireland

veetwin wrote: »

It is also widely regarded as a complete and utter cluster fcuk...So much so that there are strong rumours around about the Police taking over in some quarters

I agree that the UK border control is a mess in London, though I've had nothing but positive experiences in Scotland and the north of England. but the problems seem to me to be caused by massive volumes of passengers. I'm not sure that's a law enforcement issue as much as a staffing/capacity issue.

kub

An Udaras wrote: »

Exactly to a tourist or most members of the public there would see no difference.

Most of The Public in this country are well aware that the crowd who Police this country are called GARDAI not Airport Police (aka glorified security guards)

In the UK it's Common for the like of the MET,COL Police & BTP to attend at an incident.

All of which are official POLICE FORCES, not glorified security guards.

A uniformed Airport Police Officer would attract no more attention then a guard within an airport setting.

You are incorrect, The Gardai would attract more respect.

If an Airport Police Officer currently attends an incident in support of Customs which is a another law enforcement agency within the airport to deal with a disruptive passenger/assault etc... And that doesn't cause a public outcry of complaints from tourists then I don't think people would give two glances if the APS where in attendance at present or in a future civilianised Immigration

Oh so The mighty Airport Police are now a law enforcement 'agency' are they? What country are you reffering to? America is it?
Also please do not insult us, Customs have a lot more power than firstly The Gardai, also of course the general public, including The Airport Police/ security guards.
Also people actually would gve two glances, because as far as the Irish populace is concerned the Airport Police are just security guards, same as those security guys that we all come across in shopping centres/ commerical premises etc.

ERU for whatever Reason you don't recognize them with their Police title and that's fine as its your own opinion but thankfully the Oireachtas seems to...

This was passed during the past governments time was it? By the crowd who handed over control of this country to the Imf? That in my book does not give it much credit. Again in my book, these guys are uniformed civilians.

The UK is now a complete civilianised border control service, there model may be far from perfect but it seem the Irish State are simply looking at a more flexible model for our border management here. Don't forget it's only two years since 2hour queues where common in Dublin Airports EU Immigration as guards where in happy with allowances being removed now what kind of experience is that for visitors to our country?

Ok so, lets disband The Gardai, strip them of whatever power, with which they trained years for and respect for which they work for and replace them all with Airport Police uniformed civilians.

markpb

kub wrote: »

Ok so, lets disband The Gardai, strip them of whatever power, with which they trained years for and respect for which they work for and replace them all with Airport Police uniformed civilians.

Too right! Its much better to spend years putting them through Templemore, probation and their initial station, building up knowledge of criminal legislation, teaching them how to deal with the public and honing their instincts as Gardai only to put them in a box in the airport looking at passports for hours each day.

kub

markpb wrote: »

Too right! Its much better to spend years putting them through Templemore, probation and their initial station, building up knowledge of criminal legislation, teaching them how to deal with the public and honing their instincts as Gardai only to put them in a box in the airport looking at passports for hours each day.

I have a funny feeling that these guys have a choice as to which area they want to work in.
Perhaps they have been there and done that? You know the place where Airport Police/ uniformed civilians dream about.

An Udaras

Great Rebuttal Kub :rolleyes:

You clearly have little knowledge of the above subject hence the uneducated/referenced jibes.

We as a nation our proudly served by one National police service An Garda Siochaina who protect us all as communities but this does not preclude us from having other similar agencies who provide vital & necessary functions within our society.

An Udaras

veetwin wrote: »

It is also widely regarded as a complete and utter cluster fcuk...So much so that there are strong rumours around about the Police taking over in some quarters

Hi Veetwin,

With the current round of drastic cuts across the UK Police Forces I doubt is likely happen soon. A pal of mine is with Devon & Cornwall Constabulary and he was recently telling me of the severe cuts there facing and how hard there finding it to focus on general policing duties so be hard to see them taking on more non-policing/static duties. The same issues are facing forces across England.

UKBA certainly has been exposed lately in many areas as been more then lacking

Eru

An Udaras wrote: »

In the UK it's Common for the like of the MET,COL Police & BTP to attend at an incident.

I'm not getting into the difference and powers of home office compared to other police forces in the UK.

An Udaras wrote: »

A uniformed Airport Police Officer would attract no more attention then a guard within an airport setting.

And? In a shop a security guard in uniform or a doorman in a pub causes no major alarm either. I fail to see how this impacts on the issue.

An Udaras wrote: »

If an Airport Police Officer currently attends an incident in support of Customs which is a another law enforcement agency within the airport to deal with a disruptive passenger/assault etc... And that doesn't cause a public outcry of complaints from tourists then I don't think people would give two glances if the APS where in attendance at present or in a future civilianised Immigration

Again you miss the point, in fact you seem to miss it completely in every aspect. Its not what people will think or see, its about powers and authority. The tourist would be very pissed off when the 'police' officer he is talking to reveals that he cannot investigate the complaint and must call a Garda to take a complaint, statement and conduct the investigation.

An Udaras wrote: »

ERU for whatever Reason you don't recognize them with their Police title and that's fine as its your own opinion but thankfully the Oireachtas seems to...

What a painful and pointless link. You realise your linking to a google search that reveals links into the air navigation act's yes?

Look, you yourself have said the obvious here:

An Udaras wrote: »

We as a nation our proudly served by one National police service An Garda Siochaina

Thats the point I am making. I am going to spell it as easily as I can now, you my friend dont understand the law your quoting. You read it but you misunderstand the content. The air navigation act grants certain limited powers to 'authourised officers'. Its very much less than policing powers though.

To explain further, the power of detention that is mentioned allows AP to arrest for assault, firearms, a theft offence and demand details for the purpose of the bye laws. To put that in context; 'arrest' on this occasion means detain pending Garda arrival or to demand name and address. The act specifically states that. Assault under this act, firearms and theft offences which are named in the act are what are called 'arrestable' offences. (i will return to that). the power to demand name and address for issuing fines for bye law infringements is missing a key requirement, what happens next? If I stand there refusing to speak whats the next step? they have no powers to charge me with a crime, no powers to detain me in custody or bring me before a court. Do we just stand in the middle of the airport until old age? No we dont, realistically I walk out of the airport.

Going back to arrestable offences. Section 4 of the criminal law act 1997 allows for ANY PERSON to arrest for an arrestable offence. Arrest on this occasion means detain pending Garda arrival. You see where this is going? The power of arrest under the air navigation act carries only one addition power for the AP and thats only to demand someones name and address. In fact, looking closer, theres far more crimes covered under this power of arrest than the air navigation act covers meaninf that for most crimes committed in the airport, all persons present can arrest using a this power but the ap cannot using the air navigation act.

Under both circumstances, where a crime has been committed the person arresting, be it joe soap or the AP literally holds the person and calls Gardai who then arrest the person and proceed with the investigation, charging or prosecuting of the offence. All other persons including the original arrester are witnesses in the case only.

Next lets view some example of this in action:
AP sees an assault in the airport. The AP arrests the suspect and can do absolutely nothing more but wait for Gardai.
Joe Soap sees an assault and holds the suspect pending Garda arrival and does nothing more.
A security guard observes a shoplifter taking a product and detains that person pending Garda arrival and does nothing more.
A doorman breaks up a fight in the bar and holds the aggressive person or persons until Gardai arrive and then do nothing more.
A man wakes up and sees someone breaking into his neighbours house. he tackles the person and holds them until Gardai arrive and does nothing more.
A customs officer searches a bag and finds drugs, the customs officer holds the person until gardai arrive and does nothing more.

To labour the point: An AP tells you to move your car from the drop off area. You get into a arguement and end up punching the AP. The AP and presumable his colleagues holds you until gardai arrive and as per all the others, the Gardai arrest you, detain you, question you, charge you and prosecute you before the courts calling the AP as a victim and witness only.

Now, you are confident that the ability to issue tickets for bye law offences makes them very powerful police but to explain that one a little further. The power to make a byelaw rests with any local authority in addition to government, semi state bodies and many others. The power to enforce the various bye laws includes but is not limited to:

Dublin bus inspectors for fare evasion
Rail service inspectors for fare evasion
Luas staff for fare evasion
Traffic wardens for parking offences
litter wardens for littering offences
EPA for pollution and other offences
Fir officers for certain offences.
Safety officers for certain offences.
An Post for TV license offences.
Customs and revenue officers for tax offences.
Local county council officers for specified bye law offences such as bins, etc.
Park wardens for park offences (dog poo for example)

and the list really does go on and on and on....

So, lastly try to remember that theres more than one type of power of arrest. theres arrest / detention pending Garda arrival aka citizens arrest, theres arrest for questioning and investigating, arrest on warrant, arrest for charging and beyond that we dont need to get into. Point being theres all sorts of meaning to the word.

Now looking back this is a very long post so I will just finish by saying I may have made some mistakes in this, non intentional and that i am not anti Ap or any organisation that plays its part in this country BUT and its a big BUT, I have a serious issue with the mess that is Dublin airport and the agencies inside. The confusion that the AP cause is pointless and should have been resolved a long time ago. I mean, just how much has been spent in Shannon with AP, Gardai and the army????

So if the government announced tomorrow that the AP were to be made a fully fledged transport police with complete powers that equaled Gardai I would be fine with that. I would throw in dealing with customs offences while were at it and just have 1 agency covering all the bases but replacing Gardai with yet another agency to me makes no sense.

An Udaras

Years ago when I worked and lived in London and used the Tube frequently I use to come across the BTP who where always regarded as a lesser police service as they generally enforced Railway Byelaws more so then investigate murders or serious crime but over time BTP grew in respect and value to the people it served.

You're correct in what you say in relations to charging,taking statements and serious crime prosecutions this is what the Irish criminal justice systems demands that Gardai conduct it.

But putting it simply Airport Police is likely to continue in similar vein supporting the traveling public & staff. Their mission & powers are focused around the Safety,Security & Proper Operation of our state airports and that of what the DAA assign to them.

Their job is to police our airports & prevent acts of criminal nature from occurring and if they occur on their patch to respond to them. They deal with what threats to the above occur, up to and including arresting an individual and then transfer over custody to the Gardai to investigate while APS return to their role of focusing protecting our airports.

You need to look at it in similar way to cover provided to an airport by it's Fire Service if units are deployed to a incidents it's lower the Airports fire catorgary cover in similar way if Airport Police where to be away transporting, charging,taking statements or constantly in court the small police service that it is would constantly be changing the police/aviation security coverage they provide and there would be natural big delay in response times which is not acceptable in commercial airport environment so leave it to the Guards to do.

The DAA,DOT,DOJ,Gardai & Airlines obviously don't have a problem and seem happy enough with the current policing requirements.

With their powers of Stop & Search,Detain & Question, Remove and/or Arrest along with Byelaws enforcements amongst other statute powers and being recognized by the courts as Police Officer in their own right as they fill the functions of such. Like everything we say on here it's only our personal opinion and really means nothing in the scale of things but its interesting to discuss and
learn from the points raised.

Eru

I had a reply made out but then I realised, whats the point? Your a fanboy for some reason and I'm not going to bother correcting you anymore

kub

An Udaras wrote: »

Great Rebuttal Kub :rolleyes:

You clearly have little knowledge of the above subject hence the uneducated/referenced jibes.

We as a nation our proudly served by one National police service An Garda Siochaina who protect us all as communities but this does not preclude us from having other similar agencies who provide vital & necessary functions within our society.

You are correct, I have little knowledge of the superman laws which were given to airport security workers, being honest i could be bothered even reading the text either.
As a Joe Soap I am happy to see that you also acknowledge that we have one national police service, ie An Garda Siochana. I just got the impression that you thought the Airport guys were the be all and end all.

Again i have to wonder, how does an airport police worker think he can stop Gardai from entering a certain part of an airport when a crime has and is being committed?

CaseyRyback

An Udaras wrote: »

Exactly to a tourist or most members of the public there would see no difference.

In the UK it's Common for the like of the MET,COL Police & BTP to attend at an incident.

A uniformed Airport Police Officer would attract no more attention then a guard within an airport setting.

Met, COLP, BTP, Gardai, Airport Police? The Airport Police are the only non-police!

Yes in the UK BTP sometimes turn out to a local Constabulary job, however they are sworn Constables with full police powers. Airport Police are uniformed security with limited stop/search and detention powers.....more akin to Police Community Support Officers in the UK.

Terrontress

Any time I had seen the BTP in the past, it had always been in support of ticket checkers so I thought they were generally like private security, helping the train operating companies to make sure they remain profitable.

Watching that show The Tube, they were doing lots of full-on police work.

CaseyRyback

BTP used to be a bit of a joke amongst Home Office Forces but have come on in leaps and bounds since 9/11 when their jurisdiction was expanded to give them full powers off railway premises. They now perform the majority of policing functions.

kravmaga

An Udaras wrote: »

In recent weeks there have been several articles in different Irish news papers including the Irish Indo and the Star about civil servants in the DOJ being offered the opportunity to serve in as part of a pilot scheme as Border Guards within the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin Airport.

They will augment current Garda officers on the booths and the rumor among friends of mine serving currently with GNIB is that if the pilot scheme is successful that civil servants will take over the Garda role totally.

In a similar manner to how Custom officers are recruited from Revenue's civil servants.

Could we see an Irish Border Agency in a similar manner to the UK Border Agency who are all civil servants and not Home Office Police taking over the role from the GNIB/Gardai???

I agree that the Garda in the booths should be replaced by civil servants.
In fact there are a lot of sections in AGS which should be completely civilianised similiar to the higher percentage of civilians in most UK Police Forces.

That said , AGS is a dinosaur of an organisation which needs a complete overhaul.


What a waste of resources as any time I pass through Dublin Airport ,AGS dont even inspect passports correctly.
You just get a wave of a hand , "eh go ahead there horse"

Terrontress

kravmaga wrote: »

An Udaras wrote: »

In recent weeks there have been several articles in different Irish news papers including the Irish Indo and the Star about civil servants in the DOJ being offered the opportunity to serve in as part of a pilot scheme as Border Guards within the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin Airport.

They will augment current Garda officers on the booths and the rumor among friends of mine serving currently with GNIB is that if the pilot scheme is successful that civil servants will take over the Garda role totally.

In a similar manner to how Custom officers are recruited from Revenue's civil servants.

Could we see an Irish Border Agency in a similar manner to the UK Border Agency who are all civil servants and not Home Office Police taking over the role from the GNIB/Gardai???

I agree that the Garda in the booths should be replaced by civil servants.
In fact there are a lot of sections in AGS which should be completely civilianised similiar to the higher percentage of civilians in most UK Police Forces.

That said , AGS is a dinosaur of an organisation which needs a complete overhaul.


What a waste of resources as any time I pass through Dublin Airport ,AGS dont even inspect passports correctly.
You just get a wave of a hand , "eh go ahead there horse"

They're probably looking for specific behaviours rather than at the passport itself. Once they see you have an EU passport in the EU lane then they are more or less obliged to let you in so better to look for someone being shifty or trying to conceal something.

There used to be an oldish lad with a skin condition doing the GNIB checks and he used to stare blankly ahead and nod his head ever so slightly to signify that someone should proceed.

jeckle

I think the entire discussion is being clouded by those who are confusing security checks with passport/identity/visa entitlement checks.

Anyone is likely to throw a hissy fit in any area of an airport, no matter what documantation they are carrying.

If there is an issue with entry entitlement or suspicious behaviour at the booths I assume that, as in most other countries, the matter is initially moved to a secondary point for further checks, clarification or questioning, where there would normally be additional security of some sort who would be quite capable of restraining any would-be offenders until such a time that they can be either arrested/charged with an offence, or merely put on a plane back to where they came from, or contained until such a time that this is possible, so I can see no reason for AGS to be involved in the initial clerical side of immigration/passport checkpoints provided that they are replaced with people who have proper document checking & immigration training.

Eru

"A GARDA HAD to be treated in hospital after being attacked and slashed with a sharp object aboard a repatriation flight to Nigeria, TheJournal.ie has learned.
The garda, a father of three, was escorting the prisoner to the bathroom on board the aircraft when the assault happened.
He required 13 stitches after being slashed along the cheek and throat, as well as on his back.
Concerns have been raised about the level of security on board the flight at the time, with the Garda Representative Association accusing management of “reckless endangerment” of an officer.
TheJournal.ie also understands that when the flight landed at Lagos, the assailant disembarked and was not detained further.
The attack took place on Thursday 8 March, on board a flight which had originated in Austria before picking up detainees for repatriation in Dublin and Madrid. Repatriation flights are sometimes shared between EU countries due to the cost.
Roughly an hour after the aircraft departed Madrid for Lagos in Nigeria, the officer was escorting the prisoner to the bathroom when he was attacked and slashed across the face. The officer tried to get away as others attempted to restrain the detainee, but he was slashed again on his back.
It’s believed the prisoner had managed to smuggle a sharp object onto the plane.
The prisoner was then restrained on board and the injured guard treated by a doctor as the flight continued to Lagos, where the detainees were released.
A spokesperson for the Garda Representative Association told TheJournal.ie that not enough gardaí had been deployed on board the flight. He said:
We feel that the security wasn’t sufficient. There weren’t enough guards on there.
This was reckless endangerment.
The spokesperson continued: “Immigration is an important issue, and the correct amount of staff must be allocated to fulfil the role so that nobody’s safety is compromised.”
It is considered too dangerous for EU personnel to disembark in Lagos without security so the garda could not receive further treatment there. Instead the flight returned to Madrid where he was treated approximately 10 hours after the incident.
The officer is still recuperating and has not yet returned to active duty."
(http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-slashed-by-detainee-on-deportation-flight-385082-Mar2012/)

I guess Dublin airport does have dangerous lunatics going through immigration after all

First Aid Ireland

Eru wrote: »

"A GARDA HAD to be treated in hospital after being attacked and slashed with a sharp object aboard a repatriation flight to Nigeria, TheJournal.ie has learned.
The garda, a father of three, was escorting the prisoner to the bathroom on board the aircraft when the assault happened.
He required 13 stitches after being slashed along the cheek and throat, as well as on his back.
Concerns have been raised about the level of security on board the flight at the time, with the Garda Representative Association accusing management of “reckless endangerment” of an officer.
TheJournal.ie also understands that when the flight landed at Lagos, the assailant disembarked and was not detained further.
The attack took place on Thursday 8 March, on board a flight which had originated in Austria before picking up detainees for repatriation in Dublin and Madrid. Repatriation flights are sometimes shared between EU countries due to the cost.
Roughly an hour after the aircraft departed Madrid for Lagos in Nigeria, the officer was escorting the prisoner to the bathroom when he was attacked and slashed across the face. The officer tried to get away as others attempted to restrain the detainee, but he was slashed again on his back.
It’s believed the prisoner had managed to smuggle a sharp object onto the plane.
The prisoner was then restrained on board and the injured guard treated by a doctor as the flight continued to Lagos, where the detainees were released.
A spokesperson for the Garda Representative Association told TheJournal.ie that not enough gardaí had been deployed on board the flight. He said:
We feel that the security wasn’t sufficient. There weren’t enough guards on there.
This was reckless endangerment.
The spokesperson continued: “Immigration is an important issue, and the correct amount of staff must be allocated to fulfil the role so that nobody’s safety is compromised.”
It is considered too dangerous for EU personnel to disembark in Lagos without security so the garda could not receive further treatment there. Instead the flight returned to Madrid where he was treated approximately 10 hours after the incident.
The officer is still recuperating and has not yet returned to active duty."
(http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-slashed-by-detainee-on-deportation-flight-385082-Mar2012/)

I guess Dublin airport does have dangerous lunatics going through immigration after all

But the same person probably passed through dunnes and mcdonalds and a few bars in town and a few shopping centres......

Our man in Havana

Why are Gardaí escorting them all the way to Lagos? Surely it is enough to make sure they leave on the plane?

veetwin

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Why are Gardaí escorting them all the way to Lagos? Surely it is enough to make sure they leave on the plane?

What a ridiculous comment to make. Obviously if they are slashing the faces of Gardai they need to be escorted. Are you suggesting that they be put on a plane and left to their own devices? Do you not think that they might pose a threat to other passengers/cabin crew or aircraft safety?

Paulzx

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Why are Gardaí escorting them all the way to Lagos? Surely it is enough to make sure they leave on the plane?

Do you think any airline on the planet is going to take a group of people on an aircraft who don't actually want to be on the aircraft and are there basically against their will without having a security escort with them?

Every state that has deportees on that aircraft will have provided security escorts for the individuals they have deported. It's not unique to people that are being deported from Ireland.

parsi

Eru wrote: »

I guess Dublin airport does have dangerous lunatics going through immigration after all

He might have been calm and sane when passing through immigration years ago when he first arrived in Ireland.

Possibly on the plane he may have formed the opinion that his life was in danger when he returned to Nigeria and this caused him to act irrationally and strike out. Or maybe he had a few shandies on the way to the airport.

roisinsotoole

Eru wrote: »

"A GARDA HAD to be treated in hospital after being attacked and slashed with a sharp object aboard a repatriation flight to Nigeria, TheJournal.ie has learned.
The garda, a father of three, was escorting the prisoner to the bathroom on board the aircraft when the assault happened.
He required 13 stitches after being slashed along the cheek and throat, as well as on his back.
Concerns have been raised about the level of security on board the flight at the time, with the Garda Representative Association accusing management of “reckless endangerment” of an officer.
TheJournal.ie also understands that when the flight landed at Lagos, the assailant disembarked and was not detained further.
The attack took place on Thursday 8 March, on board a flight which had originated in Austria before picking up detainees for repatriation in Dublin and Madrid. Repatriation flights are sometimes shared between EU countries due to the cost.
Roughly an hour after the aircraft departed Madrid for Lagos in Nigeria, the officer was escorting the prisoner to the bathroom when he was attacked and slashed across the face. The officer tried to get away as others attempted to restrain the detainee, but he was slashed again on his back.
It’s believed the prisoner had managed to smuggle a sharp object onto the plane.
The prisoner was then restrained on board and the injured guard treated by a doctor as the flight continued to Lagos, where the detainees were released.
A spokesperson for the Garda Representative Association told TheJournal.ie that not enough gardaí had been deployed on board the flight. He said:
We feel that the security wasn’t sufficient. There weren’t enough guards on there.
This was reckless endangerment.
The spokesperson continued: “Immigration is an important issue, and the correct amount of staff must be allocated to fulfil the role so that nobody’s safety is compromised.”
It is considered too dangerous for EU personnel to disembark in Lagos without security so the garda could not receive further treatment there. Instead the flight returned to Madrid where he was treated approximately 10 hours after the incident.
The officer is still recuperating and has not yet returned to active duty."
(http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-slashed-by-detainee-on-deportation-flight-385082-Mar2012/)

I guess Dublin airport does have dangerous lunatics going through immigration after all

Wreakless endangerment is right, disgrace this took place.. What can be done to avoid this again, cuffs?? Who searched him where did sharp object come from ?

bluetop

roisinsotoole wrote: »

Wreakless endangerment is right, disgrace this took place.. What can be done to avoid this again, cuffs?? Who searched him where did sharp object come from ?

Any one that is been deported should be in handcuffs regardless, should have been searched at airport and just before boarding the aircraft as well.

An Udaras

bluetop wrote: »

Any one that is been deported should be in handcuffs regardless, should have been searched at airport and just before boarding the aircraft as well.

Should being the operative word.. Unfortunately

All the above apart.. I'd like to wish the Officer a quick recovery.. He was injured in the line of duty by a clearly dangerous individual..

Terrontress

Of course Dublin Airport does have 'dangerous lunatics' going through it. Given that there are dangerous lunatics in this world and millions of people passing through the airport, you must expect a cross section of society.

The bottom line though is that such a guy as this does not justify trained Gardaí sitting in booths in Dublin arrivals halls because anyone who is trying to get in to a country illegally will not draw attention to himself in arrivals by slashing someone unless their intention is to spend the next decade in detention.

Is Dublin Airport any more succeptible to 'dangerous lunatics' than other airports where their local police do not check passports?

Eru

parsi wrote: »

He might have been calm and sane when passing through immigration years ago when he first arrived in Ireland.

Possibly on the plane he may have formed the opinion that his life was in danger when he returned to Nigeria and this caused him to act irrationally and strike out. Or maybe he had a few shandies on the way to the airport.

Dear God in heaven

kub

That is annoying, he slashes a Garda then gets off the plane scot free. Thats just wrong.

Our man in Havana

Would you rather bring him back to Ireland or dump him in the ****hole that is Lagos?

parsi

kub wrote: »

That is annoying, he slashes a Garda then gets off the plane scot free. Thats just wrong.

In theory the fact that he was chucked back home to face life in Nigeria may be considered punishment enough. Though in practical terms it may make more sense to leave it be ( despite the fact that someone was injured).

parsi

Eru wrote: »

parsi wrote: »

He might have been calm and sane when passing through immigration years ago when he first arrived in Ireland.

Possibly on the plane he may have formed the opinion that his life was in danger when he returned to Nigeria and this caused him to act irrationally and strike out. Or maybe he had a few shandies on the way to the airport.

Dear God in heaven

Problem ?

Every incident will be rewritten by the accused in their favour eg " I was just trying to wake her" or "I was just trying to get past" or " I only had 3-4 shandies with me dinner".

We've all seen court reports where the defendants solicitor mentions that the defendant has a pregnant wife, is attending a Fás course, had a hard childhood and is trying to ditch drugs and won't do it again . Until the next time .

kub

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Would you rather bring him back to Ireland or dump him in the ****hole that is Lagos?

No not at all, he obviously creamed this country for all he could. I agree with you on Lagos....just thinking more along the lines of fightning fire with fire.

kravmaga

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0402/dublin-airport-passport.html

Looks like the pilot scheme has already started at Dublin Airport.

Might get a bit more customer service and courtesy from the DOJ officials.

veetwin

kravmaga wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0402/dublin-airport-passport.html

Looks like the pilot scheme has already started at Dublin Airport.

Might get a bit more customer service and courtesy from the DOJ officials.

Indeed..DOJ officials are well known for their sterling customer service

PraetorianIII

Eru wrote: »

Customs officers hand all cases and prisoners to AGS for prosecution and act as witnesses only.

I wouldn't be so quick to say "all" cases. Prohibited and Restricted goods, Tobacco and Alcohol offences, VAT and Tax offences, Illegal fuels, Counterfeit goods, CITIES products list go's on. But if it's drugs you mean Customs do there part in detecting at the borders.

Dept of Health list the prohibited drugs. Customs, AGS and the Navy detect. The DPP brings the charges and the court system processes the case.

But to get back on topic, is this a good idea? maybe if the process frees up AGS and there's more of a visible presence on the streets.

Eru wrote: »

A customs officer searches a bag and finds drugs, the customs officer holds the person until gardai arrive and does nothing more.

Do nothing more?? well if thats the case i'm looking for my tax back! After all they have the power to arrest (and not a citizen arrest), prosecute and investigate, so i would expect them to do this.

ERU, it looks like you want to change things between enforcement agencies withing the airport / state, but maybe your a few payscales below someone who can sign off on it. Untill then i'd sugest everyone get along and concentrate on their job at hand, even those park wardens and their "dog poo" offences.

Eru

PraetorianIII wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to say "all" cases. Prohibited and Restricted goods, Tobacco and Alcohol offences, VAT and Tax offences, Illegal fuels, Counterfeit goods, CITIES products list go's on. But if it's drugs you mean Customs do there part in detecting at the borders.

Dept of Health list the prohibited drugs. Customs, AGS and the Navy detect. The DPP brings the charges and the court system processes the case.

But to get back on topic, is this a good idea? maybe if the process frees up AGS and there's more of a visible presence on the streets.

Do nothing more?? well if thats the case i'm looking for my tax back! After all they have the power to arrest (and not a citizen arrest), prosecute and investigate, so i would expect them to do this.

ERU, it looks like you want to change things between enforcement agencies withing the airport / state, but maybe your a few payscales below someone who can sign off on it. Untill then i'd sugest everyone get along and concentrate on their job at hand, even those park wardens and their "dog poo" offences.

It always amazes me when people make these statements without showing any proof to back it up. What power of arrest do they have? What power of detention and questioning do they have? What prosecutions has a CUSTOMS OFFICER effected? Quote the section of law and the case for prosecutions.

You should note when reading the cases of money laundering, fuel crime, counterfeit etc that its only Gardai that actually arrest and perform criminal investigations. Customs are involved obviously, but they aint handcuffing people or detaining them or charging them. Its exactly their inability to perform these roles that made the creation of CAB such a great tool against criminals money.

And your right I do think it should be changed because I think customs should be performing these tasks themselves just as you and your like seem to currently believe they do.

belacqua_

Eru wrote: »

You should note when reading the cases of money laundering, fuel crime, counterfeit etc that its only Gardai that actually arrest and perform criminal investigations.

This is incorrect, Customs officers' power of arrest dates from the pre-Independence Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1881 and subsequent Customs and Excise and Finance acts. Have a look at Section 139 (1), Finance Act 2001 (and its amendments) for example. The only caveat is that authority has to be authorised by a senior customs officer. These powers of arrest are also augmented by further powers of stop, search and detain provided for under other legislation such as the Merchant Shipping Act (1894) and Harbours Act (1942) amongst others.

goldie fish

Eru wrote: »

It always amazes me when people make these statements without showing any proof to back it up. What power of arrest do they have? What power of detention and questioning do they have? What prosecutions has a CUSTOMS OFFICER effected? Quote the section of law and the case for prosecutions.

You should note when reading the cases of money laundering, fuel crime, counterfeit etc that its only Gardai that actually arrest and perform criminal investigations. Customs are involved obviously, but they aint handcuffing people or detaining them or charging them. Its exactly their inability to perform these roles that made the creation of CAB such a great tool against criminals money.

And your right I do think it should be changed because I think customs should be performing these tasks themselves just as you and your like seem to currently believe they do.

Eru, for some reason I got the impression you are a garda. I may have been wrong, because it seems you have not been in the district court much.
The only thing I see is that the Gardai are used to detain as Customs, for obvious reasons, have no suitable place of detention for arrested persons.

An Udaras

Eru wrote: »

If your so sure your right, post a thread quoting their powers and the exact section of law, its pretty easy to do, here it is: Section 33, Air navigation act 1988. I direct your attention to section 1,B which carries no power of arrest for refusing to give your name and address nor a power of detention meaning I can turn around and walk away.

Also section 2 which speaks for itself concerning their prosecution ability.

They are security with slightly and I do mean slightly, more powers than my grandmother.

Post 31

Eru wrote: »

I know from being a Garda in Dublin airport that they call the actual police to deal with crime. Your comment suggests that because a shop calls security for a shoplifter ahead of Gardai that this gives security some form of authority, it doesn't.

Post 28

You have stated you served as Garda in Dublin Airport in your past but you seem to have no understanding of the power of either the Airport Police or Revenue Customs and have now stated separately that neither hold different powers of Arrest?

Am i only one who thinks something is missing here? How can a self proclaimed member of Gardai who says he has served in our main international airport and would presumably have dealt regular with either the Airport Police or Revenue Customs not understand the basics of where there respective powers come from, especially if you would have taking transfer of prisoners off them!?!

Eru

goldie fish wrote: »

Eru, for some reason I got the impression you are a garda. I may have been wrong, because it seems you have not been in the district court much.
The only thing I see is that the Gardai are used to detain as Customs, for obvious reasons, have no suitable place of detention for arrested persons.

Hang on hang on hang on, your saying as a former Garda that customs only use Gardai because customs have no interview Rooms? Holy **** man are you for real? Customs don't investigate crime, they don't prosecute, if they do point to a case and stop sprouting ****e with no backup. All drug captures for example, are investigated by gardai, a bloody google search shows that. Point to a case if your right. Customs play their part, navy plays its part but criminal cases are Gardai, FACT. Show me in law where customs can detain for questioning, charge a person and prosecute the case????

belacqua_ wrote: »

Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1881

Repealed in sections and replaced completely with other acts. Doesn't apply anymore.

belacqua_ wrote: »

Have a look at Section 139 (1), Finance Act 2001 (and its amendments) for example. The only caveat is that authority has to be authorised by a senior customs officer.

You missed the part that states "then such officer may detain the person and, as soon as practicable thereafter—

(i) present the person, or

(ii) bring and present the person,

to a member of the Garda Síochána."

No better than citizens arrest and is only repeating what I explained previously in this thread.

belacqua_ wrote: »

further powers of stop, search and detain provided for under other legislation such as the Merchant Shipping Act (1894) and Harbours Act (1942) amongst others.

Allows for the searching and examination of documentation of vessels. Does not include any power of arrest, not a single one whatsoever. The offence for obstruction under this act is also not an arrestable offence (which I have explained before)

Now, instead of all simple saying I am wrong, read the full law, quote the act and link to the court judgement. Heres a starting point: http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/Webpages/HomePage?OpenDocument&l=en&p=055