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Garda Immigration to replaced by Civil Servants

245

Comments

  • #32
    civdef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,058 ✭✭✭civdef


    Eru wrote: »
    If your so sure your right, post a thread quoting their powers and the exact section of law, its pretty easy to do, here it is: Section 33, Air navigation act 1988. I direct your attention to section 1,B which carries no power of arrest for refusing to give your name and address nor a power of detention meaning I can turn around and walk away.

    What about 1(c) which does confer a power of arrest without warrant for the above?

    The powers of arrest in 1(d) are also way above anything a member of the public has.


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0015/sec0033.html#sec33
    amended by:
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0024/sec0043.html


  • #33
    An Udaras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭An Udaras


    Jayus man,

    Section 1 (a) states that an Airport Police Officer who is empowered as a Authorised Officer may:
    (a) stop, detain for such time as is reasonably necessary for the exercise of any of his powers under this section, and search any person or vehicle on an aerodrome;

    Detain being the obvious word there.

    (Back to original topic) May I ask any of our Norn Iron friend is it the PSNI or The UK Border Agency that conducts this role up their in their airports? Just curious of their situation?


  • #34
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭kub


    Lets have a little bit of respect here for AGS members. Personally speaking as a civilian, I have the upmost respect for them.

    Now when it comes to AP, I in all honesty had no idea of whatever 'powers' they were given by some law passed by a failed Irish government.
    Having said that and as a law abiding citizen, I have no issue whatsoever with these guys.

    But lets face it, AP are not Gardai and I as a citizen will only ever consider AP as glorified security guards. Please let me take this opportunity to apologise to anyone which this comment may offend.

    Its just that in my job I come across quite a lot of security guards, in general the vast majority are sound, but I do not know if it is boredom or what, but I have to say quite a lot suffer from a Walter Mitty type synderome.

    There is only one real Police service in this country and we all know who that is.


  • #35
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Eru wrote: »
    Decide which you believe then come back to me but your missing the point I am making, your not replacing the Garda with a civil servant, your replacing him with a civil servant who earns almost as much and support personnel you earn almost as much in the new department..

    Look at this slightly differently - a Garda is being replaced by a civil servant. The civil servant will have a longer working career and not be in receipt of the myriad of allowances potentially paid to the Garda.

    A new category of staff in a revamped position allows the Department to break away from custom and practice which will end in cost savings. Such a change will also allow the Department to put more Gardai out on the streets of our towns and cities.


  • #36
    roisinsotoole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭roisinsotoole


    kub wrote: »
    Lets have a little bit of respect here for AGS members. Personally speaking as a civilian, I have the upmost respect for them.

    Now when it comes to AP, I in all honesty had no idea of whatever 'powers' they were given by some law passed by a failed Irish government.
    Having said that and as a law abiding citizen, I have no issue whatsoever with these guys.

    But lets face it, AP are not Gardai and I as a citizen will only ever consider AP as glorified security guards. Please let me take this opportunity to apologise to anyone which this comment may offend.

    Its just that in my job I come across quite a lot of security guards, in general the vast majority are sound, but I do not know if it is boredom or what, but I have to say quite a lot suffer from a Walter Mitty type synderome.

    There is only one real Police service in this country and we all know who that is.

    Sometimes that is the problem AGS police everything in this country, we need seperate agencies in some areas like immigration..


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  • #37
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭kub


    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    Sometimes that is the problem AGS police everything in this country, we need seperate agencies in some areas like immigration..

    What more quangos? Lets look at the bigger picture here, a population of 4 million, with the adult percentage dropping. Infairness as a country we have the same population as Manchester, lets consider that.

    AGS have various specialised units, some of which accumulate intelligence on criminals. Both I am sure home grown and foreign, with I would imagine the assistance of Interpol.

    Personally speaking, I would prefer a Garda doing this job. Someone who has been trained and has the experience in dealing with low life.


  • #38
    Savman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    FWIW, there are a number of airports in Europe already using Electronic scanners (for EU citizens only). Faro in Portugal and Frankfurt in Germany are two I can think of.

    Clearly the vast majority of arriving passengers are intra-EU so the passport check is a complete waste of Garda and airport resources. The new machines can do the job, halving the overall workload. Obviously there are still a number of manned desks for non-EU (or when the machines don't play nice) but it's a system that works well IMHO.

    As for who should be responsible for Border Control itself, not so sure about the Civil Servant idea personally, surely the time and cost involved in training the personnel and implementing this would be counter productive especially considering the GNIB are already in place. OTOH if it saves the Govt coffers a few million to get the Gardai onto other duties and train a whole new batch of staff then it will be done regardless of what anyone has to say about it. That's simply the IMF-based economics by which the country is now run tbh.

    But hey as a passenger, if it speeds up the bloody process I'll be happy either way.


  • #39
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    I used a self-service machine last year in Gatwick and it was quite slow -hopefully they will speed up as they become tweaked.

    There isn't any inherent reason that a civil servant couldn't perform the task. It is a bit senseless that a Garda who has received full training in Templemore is then assigned to the airport sitting in a booth performing a very specific task. It would make more sense to train up a civil servant for this particular task. Remember that both Revenue and Social Welfare have investigative staff well used to the concept of analysing documents and questioning folk within a legal framework and indeed are used to dealing with (and being attacked by) lowlife.


  • #40
    roisinsotoole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭roisinsotoole


    kub wrote: »
    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    Sometimes that is the problem AGS police everything in this country, we need seperate agencies in some areas like immigration..

    What more quangos? Lets look at the bigger picture here, a population of 4 million, with the adult percentage dropping. Infairness as a country we have the same population as Manchester, lets consider that.

    AGS have various specialised units, some of which accumulate intelligence on criminals. Both I am sure home grown and foreign, with I would imagine the assistance of Interpol.

    Personally speaking, I would prefer a Garda doing this job. Someone who has been trained and has the experience in dealing with low life.

    No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..The UK have many depts re intelligence but they are not police officers.. It's good to have an officer of any sort dedicated to one area.. Just an opinion


  • #41
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..

    Customs are part of Revenue and are civil servants.


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  • #42
    roisinsotoole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭roisinsotoole


    parsi wrote: »
    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..

    Customs are part of Revenue and are civil servants.

    Exactly


  • #43
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    One thing to remember is that via legislation any power can be moved or added.

    If it suited a corporation employee could be given the right to ticket illegal parkers.

    If it suited a social welfare inspector could be legislated to carry a gun.

    Remember that guards carry out duties ranging for stamping forms, directing match traffic , patrolling the streets, ignoring one-eyed drivers, shooting fish in a barrel, investigating organized crime, meeting bankers on the golf course.

    Each Garda is different and has different skills and roles. I doubt that yer man directing GAA traffic would be able to spot a forged passport (especially when they admit they can't spot a forged GAA permit).


  • #44
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    parsi wrote: »
    Look at this slightly differently - a Garda is being replaced by a civil servant. The civil servant will have a longer working career and not be in receipt of the myriad of allowances potentially paid to the Garda.

    A new category of staff in a revamped position allows the Department to break away from custom and practice which will end in cost savings. Such a change will also allow the Department to put more Gardai out on the streets of our towns and cities.

    If you wish to look at it like that the first thing you need do is actually compare the income of both when you consider the hours required. Gardai have different contracts to civil servants when it comes to hours of employment and payments for same. A simple example which will factor in here is weekends, nights and public holidays. How much does a civil servant get paid for working on a bank holiday compared to a Garda? You seem to believe that Gardai claim a whole shopping list of allowances that will not be claimed by a civil servant who is put in the the same working hours. I doubt that's accurate to be honest. Plus if its dept of Justice staff, what do their contracts actually oblige them to work? Can they be ordered to work their days off if there's insufficient staff numbers?

    Civil servants earned 36,000 starting in 2008 compared to Gardai at 27,000 after training. Thats making each civil servant 9 thousand more expensive than the Garda they are replacing. If they replace 10 Gardai thats 90,000 or at least 3 additional Gardai. Of course allowances for working unsociable hours aren't as easy to find for civil servants as Gardai but that's mainly because it doesn't form a basic condition of their working week. With that in mine I would expect it to be higher.

    You also mentioned career but the only issue there is the cost of training for the job in front of them as they are paid per week, not per career. Lets just say for now that its a 1 week course (I believe its less but for arguements sake). Both civil servants and Gardai are paid a set hourly rate based on a set week. Gardai its 40 and I assume its the same for civil servants. what different does it make if that person works for 30 years or 40 in the same job? Training 4 Gardai compared to training 3 civil servant over 120 years equals a saving of what? 800 euro?

    Your third point about breaking away equaling savings requires an explanation, why do you assume this? What system do you think has failed so terrible?

    and 4th, I genuinely dont believe it will result in more Gardai on the street. Theres less than 20 employed in Dublin airport as immigration officers and I believe that at least half will need to be retained to perform the Garda side of all of this. Take away those that will probable just retire instead of going back to walking the beat at 55 years of age and there will be no additional officers but instead of 20 people dealing with immigration there will be 30 with 10 less public sector emplyees.

    If people really and genuinely want to get Gardai out of the airport then lets do it properly. Instead of making yet another department with its administration and bureaucracy that comes with them why not merge and beef some up?

    Make the airport police a genuine fully authorised police force. With full responsibility for immigration, security and policing of all airports upto and including investigating and prosecuting the crimes committed. Perhaps go the whole hog and replace customs inside the airport with these lads as well thereby removing the need for police / Gardai to take over cases from customs and make it a national thing like a transport police.

    1 agency instead of 4 or 5 and trained, equipped and empowered to do the job properly.

    (I will return to the current AP and their powers in a separate thread)


  • #45
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..The UK have many depts re intelligence but they are not police officers.. It's good to have an officer of any sort dedicated to one area.. Just an opinion

    You do realise that Customs don't prosecute criminal cases don't you?


  • #46
    roisinsotoole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭roisinsotoole


    Eru wrote: »
    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..The UK have many depts re intelligence but they are not police officers.. It's good to have an officer of any sort dedicated to one area.. Just an opinion

    You do realise that Customs don't prosecute criminal cases don't you?

    Maybe not criminal cases but Im sure they prosecute for custom offences?


  • #47
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    roisinsotoole wrote: »
    Maybe not criminal cases but Im sure they prosecute for custom offences?

    We will put a pin in that one as well and revisit in a separate thread.


  • #48
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Eru wrote: »
    If you wish to look at it like that the first thing you need do is actually compare the income of both when you consider the hours required. Gardai have different contracts to civil servants when it comes to hours of employment and payments for same. A simple example which will factor in here is weekends, nights and public holidays. How much does a civil servant get paid for working on a bank holiday compared to a Garda? You seem to believe that Gardai claim a whole shopping list of allowances that will not be claimed by a civil servant who is put in the the same working hours. I doubt that's accurate to be honest. Plus if its dept of Justice staff, what do their contracts actually oblige them to work? Can they be ordered to work their days off if there's insufficient staff numbers?

    That's my point - creating a new role will result in new terms and conditions and an ideal opportunity to do away with overtime and allowances
    eru wrote:
    Civil servants earned 36,000 starting in 2008 compared to Gardai at 27,000 after training. Thats making each civil servant 9 thousand more expensive than the Garda they are replacing. If they replace 10 Gardai thats 90,000 or at least 3 additional Gardai. Of course allowances for working unsociable hours aren't as easy to find for civil servants as Gardai but that's mainly because it doesn't form a basic condition of their working week. With that in mine I would expect it to be higher.

    A bit simplistic there - the CO salary starts at around 23k. We both know that whoever ends up there won't be on the bottom of their scale.
    eru wrote:
    You also mentioned career but the only issue there is the cost of training for the job in front of them as they are paid per week, not per career. Lets just say for now that its a 1 week course (I believe its less but for arguements sake). Both civil servants and Gardai are paid a set hourly rate based on a set week. Gardai its 40 and I assume its the same for civil servants. what different does it make if that person works for 30 years or 40 in the same job? Training 4 Gardai compared to training 3 civil servant over 120 years equals a saving of what? 800 euro?

    They'll get 10 extra years out of a civil servant.
    eru wrote:
    Your third point about breaking away equaling savings requires an explanation, why do you assume this? What system do you think has failed so terrible?

    I'm not saying the system has failed but it is a waste of a highly trained police officer to be sitting in a booth looking at passports.
    eru wrote:
    and 4th, I genuinely dont believe it will result in more Gardai on the street. Theres less than 20 employed in Dublin airport as immigration officers and I believe that at least half will need to be retained to perform the Garda side of all of this. Take away those that will probable just retire instead of going back to walking the beat at 55 years of age and there will be no additional officers but instead of 20 people dealing with immigration there will be 30 with 10 less public sector emplyees.

    Those guys would be retiring at some stage anyway unless the booth has mystical powers of longetivity..
    eru wrote:
    If people really and genuinely want to get Gardai out of the airport then lets do it properly. Instead of making yet another department with its administration and bureaucracy that comes with them why not merge and beef some up?

    Doesn't need to be another department - it can come under the remit of justice.
    eru wrote:
    Make the airport police a genuine fully authorised police force. With full responsibility for immigration, security and policing of all airports upto and including investigating and prosecuting the crimes committed. Perhaps go the whole hog and replace customs inside the airport with these lads as well thereby removing the need for police / Gardai to take over cases from customs and make it a national thing like a transport police.

    1 agency instead of 4 or 5 and trained, equipped and empowered to do the job properly.

    (I will return to the current AP and their powers in a separate thread)

    Good ideas there. A lot of folk have called for a transport police force. There is merit in the idea of specialised forces.


  • #49
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Eru wrote: »
    You do realise that Customs don't prosecute criminal cases don't you?

    Wthe Revenue solicitor does.


  • #50
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    goldie fish wrote: »
    Wthe Revenue solicitor does.

    They have nothing to do with customs officers working in the airport and therefore my point stands. Customs officers hand all cases and prisoners to AGS for prosecution and act as witnesses only. The revenue solicitor prosecutes criminal tax cases ie evasion and fraud.
    parsi wrote: »
    That's my point - creating a new role will result in new terms and conditions and an ideal opportunity to do away with overtime and allowances

    People that work Christmas day, St Patricks day, weekends, night and other holidays are entitled to and very much deserve to be paid extra. I don't see why replacing one Garda for one civil servant would result on no overtime though. Once they hit 40 hours they get paid extra and rightly so.
    parsi wrote: »
    They'll get 10 extra years out of a civil servant
    unless were comparing toasters, that offers no financial saving worth mentioning.

    Other than that we agree, to make this work it should all fall under the one agency with the power to deal with the issues they encounter.


  • #51
    Terrontress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    I have been through the airport many times but have never seen these 24/7 lunatics which are referred to.

    When they start to behave in a lunatic manner, do the Gardaí all come out of their booths to calm them down?


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  • #52
    An Udaras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭An Udaras


    The simple answer is from speaking to two friends currently serving with GNIB one a Sgt and the other a Detective Garda that extremely violent persons presenting themselves at an immigration inspection point is a rareity even if they have been refused and if on the occasion of it happening they call the Airport Police emergency line for immediate assistance not only due to lack of numbers in GNIB due to retirements and non replacements over the past two years but Garda Management have instructed them that there role is to
    Facilitate Lawful Immigration
    which to the lads means don't let there be queues.

    Garda Management have instructed GNIB members to call Airport Police to deal with disruptive passengers as they do not want them leaving the booths as it would have a negative effect on queues.

    Walk through Garda Immigration any day and look at amount of Guards on duty and if as ERU suggets a passenger kicks off one Single guard could find it very difficult to control & restrain his colleagues would of course jump out. Hence bringing more members from the booths against what Garda Management want.

    Due to the controlled environment of an airports these incident are rare you should know this as you claim to have been a Guard in Dublin Airport in your past.


  • #53
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Sorry can you clarify which if these your claiming:
    An Udaras wrote: »
    they call the Airport Police emergency line for immediate assistance
    An Udaras wrote: »
    Garda Management have instructed GNIB members to call Airport Police to deal with disruptive passengers

    In A, its plausible that non Garda aid can be requested. certainly in shopping centres or on public transport for example security assist Gardai from time to time when need be, its not that rare yet and is allowed for in law. Sometimes even passersby will lend a hand but sadly thats now taking a back seat to recording a Garda being assaulted on your phone for Youtube.

    That's however a far cry from the second part which suggests that we have a situation where members of the national police force call a support agency to deal with violent crime while they sit there and watch.

    A, That would be an appalling image for tourists,
    B, It would be negligent for a police officer to stand idle by and
    C, Theres no allowance in law for such an event. Gardai cannot hand a crime or suspect to a non Garda, its a one way system.

    For the second theory to even try and work it would be GNIB officer calling AP, AP detaining the person pending Garda arrival (akin to a citizens arrest), Garda from Dublin airport arriving and arresting the person.If that was the current situation then by all means replace GNIB with civil servants.


  • #54
    An Udaras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭An Udaras


    Eru wrote: »
    Sorry can you clarify which if these your claiming:





    In A, its plausible that non Garda aid can be requested. certainly in shopping centres or on public transport for example security assist Gardai from time to time when need be, its not that rare yet and is allowed for in law. Sometimes even passersby will lend a hand but sadly thats now taking a back seat to recording a Garda being assaulted on your phone for Youtube.

    That's however a far cry from the second part which suggests that we have a situation where members of the national police force call a support agency to deal with violent crime while they sit there and watch.

    A, That would be an appalling image for tourists,
    B, It would be negligent for a police officer to stand idle by and
    C, Theres no allowance in law for such an event. Gardai cannot hand a crime or suspect to a non Garda, its a one way system.

    For the second theory to even try and work it would be GNIB officer calling AP, AP detaining the person pending Garda arrival (akin to a citizens arrest), Garda from Dublin airport arriving and arresting the person.If that was the current situation then by all means replace GNIB with civil servants.

    Well the Above happens. There was also a recent case where an assault on a female was reported to two members of the GNIB and their response was we our immigration officers theirs nothing they can do!? This happened in front of them in their area. (thankfully the above scenario is a more a reflection on the two individuals then all of the GNIB who are generally more then willing to help.

    Airport Police responded to the above incident while the two chaps stayed in their booth no interest in it continuing to check passports.

    So if civilians take over it will be the Airport Polis responding to these shouts and investigating whether an arrest is prudent.


  • #55
    veetwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭veetwin


    An Udaras wrote: »

    Garda Management have instructed GNIB members to call Airport Police to deal with disruptive passengers as they do not want them leaving the booths as it would have a negative effect on queues.

    Nonsense.


  • #56
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    An Udaras wrote: »
    Well the Above happens. There was also a recent case where an assault on a female was reported to two members of the GNIB and their response was we our immigration officers theirs nothing they can do!? This happened in front of them in their area. (thankfully the above scenario is a more a reflection on the two individuals then all of the GNIB who are generally more then willing to help.

    Airport Police responded to the above incident while the two chaps stayed in their booth no interest in it continuing to check passports.

    So if civilians take over it will be the Airport Polis responding to these shouts and investigating whether an arrest is prudent.

    Ok whatever, I'm not going to bother anymore :rolleyes:


  • #57
    veetwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭veetwin


    An Udaras wrote: »

    Airport Police responded to the above incident while the two chaps stayed in their booth no interest in it continuing to check passports. do the job they are supposed to do

    FYP


  • #58
    baalthor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭baalthor


    Eru wrote: »
    That's however a far cry from the second part which suggests that we have a situation where members of the national police force call a support agency to deal with violent crime while they sit there and watch.

    A, That would be an appalling image for tourists,
    How would they know?

    They'd just see a guy in a suit calling in a guy wearing a uniform with the word "Police" written on it.
    It's not like in most other airports where the passport checkers are in full uniform.


  • #59
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    baalthor wrote: »
    How would they know?

    They'd just see a guy in a suit calling in a guy wearing a uniform with the word "Police" written on it.
    It's not like in most other airports where the passport checkers are in full uniform.

    People tend to assume that its the same as their own country thus the questions about our guns and lack of regional / local police forces.

    That aside, don't you see anything wrong with the image you just painted? The cops the guy in a suit watching and the guy with 'police' on his uniform that responds isn't


  • #60
    An Udaras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭An Udaras


    Exactly to a tourist or most members of the public there would see no difference.

    In the UK it's Common for the like of the MET,COL Police & BTP to attend at an incident.

    A uniformed Airport Police Officer would attract no more attention then a guard within an airport setting.

    If an Airport Police Officer currently attends an incident in support of Customs which is a another law enforcement agency within the airport to deal with a disruptive passenger/assault etc... And that doesn't cause a public outcry of complaints from tourists then I don't think people would give two glances if the APS where in attendance at present or in a future civilianised Immigration

    ERU for whatever Reason you don't recognize them with their Police title and that's fine as its your own opinion but thankfully the Oireachtas seems to...

    The UK is now a complete civilianised border control service, there model may be far from perfect but it seem the Irish State are simply looking at a more flexible model for our border management here. Don't forget it's only two years since 2hour queues where common in Dublin Airports EU Immigration as guards where in happy with allowances being removed now what kind of experience is that for visitors to our country?


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  • #61
    veetwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭veetwin


    An Udaras wrote: »

    The UK is now a complete civilianised border control service, there model may be far from perfect

    It is also widely regarded as a complete and utter cluster fcuk...So much so that there are strong rumours around about the Police taking over in some quarters


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