Irish times today !!! - interview with Martin Fagan

tunney

too much trifle wrote: »

sort of related,
what finishing positions in a marathon are compulsory drug tested after the race?

In competition testing is useless

G-Money

Is it really the end of his running career? He's only 28 and if he serves a 2 year ban, isn't he allowed to compete then after its over? I'm not sure of the rules to be honest.

Perhaps in a way it's a good thing for him himself. He will get a ban and can use that time to get his head straight and whatever professional help he needs.

shotgunmcos

Good candid interview. Fear can take your life if you succumb to it blindly. But to 'go there' and face it in a self aware state and ready to face the consequences could be the discovery that saves your life. It just shows he is human. People make mistakes. Some more high profile than others. Its how he grows from this that matters. That interview took some courage IMO

nerraw1111

rovers_runner wrote: »

Did you read my post fully?
Do you think it's ok for people who get caught out breaking the rules to blame depression and think it will excuse their actions?

How am I a disgrace for dismissing his explaination as an excuse?

The problem was your reaction was 'yawn' followed by your assumption that he thinks it will excuse his actions. That's sheer conjecture. He never said "I only took EPO because I was depressed." He offered a full confession, explained, most likely after he was asked, his personal health and financial situations.

Huge difference between setting out the conditions in which he took EPO versus offering said conditions as an excuse.

You should never greet the news that someone may have depression with 'yawn' regardless whether you believe it or not. If its true, you'll come across as an asshole and possibly make the situation worse. If it's false, then be content that you don't believe them but kept it yourself.

BTH

macinalli wrote: »

The problem isn't your attitude towards Fagan - it's your attiutude towards depression

RR, you may as well tell every depression sufferer to HTFU.

longjump67

Compare the article below to Fagan and tell me that if your mindset is right you can overcome any setback, we could all that a leaf outta this young mans life.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/living-the-impossible-dream-2989346.html

rovers_runner

nerraw1111 wrote: »

The problem was your reaction was 'yawn' followed by your assumption that he thinks it will excuse his actions. That's sheer conjecture. He never said "I only took EPO because I was depressed." He offered a full confession, explained, most likely after he was asked, his personal health and financial situations.

Huge difference between setting out the conditions in which he took EPO versus offering said conditions as an excuse.

You should never greet the news that someone may have depression with 'yawn' regardless whether you believe it or not. If its true, you'll come across as an asshole and possibly make the situation worse. If it's false, then be content that you don't believe them but kept it yourself.

It's not my problem that you can't understand my reasoning.
I am of the opinion that Fagan has used depression as an excuse for getting caught cheating, he may not have, just my opinion.
I won't lose any sleep over it, try not to yourself.

mrak

dedon wrote: »

There are a number of issues here.

1 – If he was so short of cash why didn’t he just get a job like everyone else – As the OP said Mark Kennelly got the standard while running his own business. Really showing he is a better talent, a clean athlete and didn’t need drugs.

I seem to recall that he was resident in the states on a sports visa - which has a restriction that you can't get a job. He used to work in a coffee shop but had to give it up for that reason I think..

dedon wrote: »

4- He should be banned for life and not the pathetic two years. If only there was an option for this.

Wouldn't agree there, at 28, two years is a long time so not sure it makes that much difference.

I was shocked and gutted over the whole thing. I hope the story is true and that it was his one and only use and that all his races were run "clean", but it's something we will never know for sure :-(

Dodge

I'll preface my comments by saying Depression is far, far too big a problme in society for people to not take it seriously. In football recently two relatively high profile people have attempted suicice (one, unfotunately, succeeded). In no way am I trying to suggest there is anything wrong with someone who suffers from depression, and I think they should receive whatever help is neccesary.

However, because most people feel like I do, it can lead to a pretty convenient excuse for an athlete if caught cheating. I don't know Fagan, or anything about being a top level athlete so I obviously can't state with any certainty one way or the other. I just don't like the idea that he would use such a series issue as depression as a cover (and I believe lots of people are capable of this).

The pretty pointed nature of his monitoring by the Drugs testers indicates that it may have been going on for a while.

Reagrdless, I hope Fagan is banned for life (as I do all sportsmen/women who take performance enhances) and receives whatever counselliing help he needs to assimilate into 'normal' life.

too much trifle

also thought the interview was very poor,
presumably to get an interview that soon after the event,
promises are made not to ask searching questions,

also with hindsight, now excuse my ignorance, if the 1st 10 places of a are marathon are compulsory tested (?)
taking a detectable drug during a race to gain an olympic qualification time may be a risk worth taking if you believe you still wont finsh within the tested positions.
suddenly you find yourself with a decent time & with in the tested positions,
what are your options,
finish the race and risk being tested or drop out & blame "the heat"

Krusty_Clown

too much trifle wrote: »

also with hindsight, now excuse my ignorance, if the 1st 10 places of a are marathon are compulsory tested (?)
taking a detectable drug during a race to gain an olympic qualification time may be a risk worth taking if you believe you still wont finsh within the tested positions.
suddenly you find yourself with a decent time & with in the tested positions,
what are your options,
finish the race and risk being tested or drop out & blame "the heat"

I don't know much about such things, but presumably you would take this kind of drug during training, in the hope of boosting your training, rather than boosting your performance during a race. So come race-time, you have no traces of the drug in your system, but you still reap the benefits of all that training.

Fagan would have known exactly what pace/position he was going to finish in, in Chicago, so dropping out at 41km, isn't really a likely scenario. Olympic marathon qualification time in Chicago would almost always have you in the top 10.

Bella mamma

rovers_runner wrote: »

It's not my problem that you can't understand my reasoning.
I am of the opinion that Fagan has used depression as an excuse for getting caught cheating, he may not have, just my opinion.
I won't lose any sleep over it, try not to yourself.

Oh so you do understand that understanding reasoning and losing sleep are depression related. Phew!

I'd never have used depression as an excuse myself. It's way too painful. Gimme 4 broken limbs any day.

jeffontour

There's a bigger issue here than the loss to Irish Athletics. It's his health. He'll be banned so he'll pay the price in terms of his athletics.

The important thing now is he gets the support and advice to help him get out the other side of what appears to be a bad situation. Being back home will hopefully make that easier.

T runner

rovers_runner wrote: »

It's not my problem that you can't understand my reasoning.
I am of the opinion that Fagan has used depression as an excuse for getting caught cheating, he may not have, just my opinion.
I won't lose any sleep over it, try not to yourself.

Im afraid the actions closely fit the irrationality of mental illness. His EPO taking was so naieve as to make it almost a given certainty that he would be caught. How can you explain this?

He is also been on medication for depression. Running is often prescribed for people to combat depression.

He made little effort to ensure the success of this cheating. Surely, someone who rationally plans and sets about to take EPO for the sole purpose of fooling people for greedy personal gain will actually make rational attempts to fool them. There was absolutely nothing rational about his attempts. Can you explain why his attempts were so naieve? That unless he is incredibly stupid (hes not apparently) that he must have known hed be caught? Doesnt it not look like he didnt give any consideration to the effective evading of detection part vital to the success of his deception? I think it ties in with the irrational actions of someone with severe depression.

You are entitled to your opinion Rovers but you do need to substantiate your opinion especially when your are defining the life of Martin Fagan or anyone as "cheater". I think thats only fair.

rovers_runner

T runner wrote: »

Im afraid the actions closely fit the irrationality of mental illness. His EPO taking was so naieve as to make it almost a given certainty that he would be caught. How can you explain this?

He is also been on medication for depression. Running is often prescribed for people to combat depression.

He made little effort to ensure the success of this cheating. Surely, someone who rationally plans and sets about to take EPO for the sole purpose of fooling people for greedy personal gain will actually make rational attempts to fool them. There was absolutely nothing rational about his attempts. Can you explain why his attempts were so naieve? That unless he is incredibly stupid (hes not apparently) that he must have known hed be caught? Doesnt it not look like he didnt give any consideration to the effective evading of detection part vital to the success of his deception? I think it ties in with the irrational actions of someone with severe depression.

You are entitled to your opinion Rovers but you do need to substantiate your opinion especially when your are defining the life of Martin Fagan or anyone as "cheater". I think thats only fair.

T Runner, I would agree that his actions were irrational to the point that this drug was easily traceable.

However, why would he return to the US to take the drugs without having a plan in mind as to maximise the benefit of these drugs ? (was his training not based in Europe at this time?)
Why were there no details given of a missed drugs test in 2007 (Authorities would have to answer for this too?)
Would someone suffering from mental illness long term be able to train sufficiently both mentally and physically to perform at the standard he did in Chicago?

shels4ever

rovers_runner wrote: »

In this context, yes it is a joke.
He did the crime, was caught and then chose to have an "On mature reflection..." moment.

He was conveniently caught 24hrs after his "first use" of a banned substance.
We've all seen people in all walks of life break the law/rules across many mediums and then blame their mental health to soften the punishment, a load of rubbish.

I don't think I seen anything he said was looking for that, he has not asked the b sample to be tested, and will take the full ban .

thirtyfoot

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Massively hurt......I think thats overegging it a bit. There are probably 100 gaelic footballers and hurlers who are better known in the country than him. ?

Exactly and why are these amateurs who when it comes to talent and performance on a global stage wouldn't hold a candle to Fagan more known than him? Because of the state of athletics generally due to the horrendous past and reputation it has for drugs. People don't care much for the sport as a result, this is another reason to not care and not trust it.

Tombo2000 wrote: »

but massive damage to athletics in Ireland?

On the following levels:

• The casual sports fan as I have pointed out will care even less for the sport
• Will parents be happy putting their kids into a sport thats seen to be about drugs
• Will sponsors sponsor a sport or an athlete who could be dirty
• Will media invest in a sport or athlete who may be dirty
• There will be doubts and attention brought on all our other clean athletes

Its front page of the Times. Its been on the news (TV and Radio - although Ava H did get a mention on Six-One yesterday), people are talking about it in my workplace. Most people didn't know who he was (20 years ago they would have known one of our top athletes) but they see that yet another athlete has failed a drug test.

In the reducing space that athletics holds in the Irish sports head space, this is bad, bad news. There are many good stories. As my hero Mad Len says, good stories don't sell, bad ones do. Instead of focus on our 13th qualifier for London, the media are focusing on this.

jeffontour

rovers_runner wrote: »

Would someone suffering from mental illness long term be able to train sufficiently both mentally and physically to perform at the standard he did in Chicago?

In my opinion, yes.

Mental illness is like any other illness. People can hide it, they can struggle on with it, they can and very often do suffer in isolation until they crack.

We will never know the extent of his problems I'd guess and far be it from me or anyone else to question the extent of his illness.

myflipflops

It's interesting that a lot of his peers and competitors in Irish distance running have been rallying around him.

Keith Kelly (obviously), Vinny Mulvey, Joe Sweeney, Tom Chamney among others have all been out in support of him. Not supporting, condoning or excusing the EPO use but supporting the man.

They know him well and some of them potentially had lots to lose by the situation. Guys who have raced him many, many times believe what he is saying.

Liamo08

rovers_runner wrote: »

T Runner, I would agree that his actions were irrational to the point that this drug was easily traceable.

However, why would he return to the US to take the drugs without having a plan in mind as to maximise the benefit of these drugs ? (was his training not based in Europe at this time?)
Why were there no details given of a missed drugs test in 2007 (Authorities would have to answer for this too?)
Would someone suffering from mental illness long term be able to train sufficiently both mentally and physically to perform at the standard he did in Chicago?

He was training in the US all the time.

From your posts you seem to be suggesting that he could have been taking EPO in this way for a considerable period of time, how do you think that he managed not to test positive until now if that's the case? It's not like he was micro-dosing or blood doping, there's a very simple test for catching someone who is taking EPO as has been described in the interview.

shels4ever

Liamo08 wrote: »

He was training in the US all the time.

From your posts you seem to be suggesting that he could have been taking EPO in this way for a considerable period of time, how do you think that he managed not to test positive until now if that's the case? It's not like he was micro-dosing or blood doping, there's a very simple test for catching someone who is taking EPO as has been described in the interview.

Thats not totally correct, if EPO is taken correctly you may not be caught, people usualyl get caught when they make mistakes. Not saying this is what happened with Martin, but only he will know for sure.

Liamo08

shels4ever wrote: »

Thats not totally correct, if EPO is taken correctly you may not be caught, people usualyl get caught when they make mistakes. Not saying this is what happened with Martin, but only he will know for sure.

I understand that, the point I'm making is that (And he says it himself in his interview) no-one takes EPO at high does like this anymore:

“I’m not a doctor. But I was already in meltdown. And I know no one takes EPO anymore this way. Maybe 10 years ago, yeah. But it’s so silly, the way I did it, because you’re certain to get caught.”

I'd be of the opinion that ff he was dosing like this for a long period of time he'd have been caught long ago. If he was caught micro-dosing or blood doping etc. I'd have a much harder time believing his version of events.

kingQuez

If you cheat, you're a cheat. I'd still sooner read this than an article about another 28 year old killing themselves. Seriously, perspective.

mithril

Once he serves his 2 years ban, he can compete again and becomes eligible for international selection. What's the likelihood of him being picked if he meets the normal selection criteria e.g. for the European Championships, if he is the first Irish runner home in the Dublin marathon.
Is there an informal policy of not selecting runners who have previously failed a drug test?
Cathal Lombard would be a somewhat similiar case and I think legal action wash threatened at one point when he was not selected after winning a national event.

Tombo2000

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Exactly and why are these amateurs who when it comes to talent and performance on a global stage wouldn't hold a candle to Fagan more known than him? Because of the state of athletics generally due to the horrendous past and reputation it has for drugs. People don't care much for the sport as a result, this is another reason to not care and not trust it.



On the following levels:

• The casual sports fan as I have pointed out will care even less for the sport
• Will parents be happy putting their kids into a sport thats seen to be about drugs
• Will sponsors sponsor a sport or an athlete who could be dirty
• Will media invest in a sport or athlete who may be dirty
• There will be doubts and attention brought on all our other clean athletes

Its front page of the Times. Its been on the news (TV and Radio - although Ava H did get a mention on Six-One yesterday), people are talking about it in my workplace. Most people didn't know who he was (20 years ago they would have known one of our top athletes) but they see that yet another athlete has failed a drug test.

In the reducing space that athletics holds in the Irish sports head space, this is bad, bad news. There are many good stories. As my hero Mad Len says, good stories don't sell, bad ones do. Instead of focus on our 13th qualifier for London, the media are focusing on this.

Acknowledge all your arguments but I disagree that it does massive damage.

When i was a kid (in the 1980s) athletics was hugely popular because ireland had many of the top middle distance runners in the world and because it regularly featured on the TV.

Today, we dont have any of the top middle distance runners in the world and that has nothing to with drugs and everything to with African dominance.....

.....and Athletics is never on the telly because of the dominance of team sports involving a ball, again nothing to with drugs. In this latter respect, athletics is no different to many other sports. RTE dont show tennis any more, for example.

I dont dispute this is bad news for the sport. But massive damage? I dont think so.

bryangiggsy

Looking beyond the damage this may or may not have done to the sport in Ireland I believe taking EPO was in a way a cry for help for him. He could not ask for help but wanted a way out. He prob knew the chances of getting caught were high. Perhaps he thought get caught and this nightmare will be over. Depression is a black hole that some can not get out of..that some can not ask for help. This was his way out his cry for help. At the end of the day living is more important than any sport.

TheRoadRunner

mithril wrote: »

What's the likelihood of him being picked if he meets the normal selection criteria e.g. for the European Championships, if he is the first Irish runner home in the Dublin marathon.
Is there an informal policy of not selecting runners who have previously failed a drug test?

Yes he will be eligible to run. Not too sure if the IOC has a similar ban as BOC regards olympics but I guess he would be selected for IAAF events by AAI.

mithril wrote: »

Cathal Lombard would be a somewhat similiar case and I think legal action wash threatened at one point when he was not selected after winning a national event.

Think you have this one wrong. As far as I remeber Lombard was offered a place at world xc after winning interclubs in Belfast but said he had other more important things to concentrate on such as his job.

TheBoyMorley

Tombo2000 wrote: »

I dont dispute this is bad news for the sport. But massive damage? I dont think so.

I agree. The number of people running/racing (while not even at a club level) is going through the roof in Ireland at the moment. It's bad for the sport at the top perhaps, as it may cast a shadow (rightly or wrongly) on our other athletes currently posting PB's and/or winning races. I don't think it will stop people pulling on their shoes and going for a run, signing up for a race, busting a gut to shave a few seconds off their own pb...

christeb

one of Fagan's training partners on being told the news

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yENJpVZNlgk

pistol_75

Strange that he gave up a long run after 400m because the pace was too quick and your man never saw him after that.