Che Guevara Statue In Galway

Happy Monday

johngalway wrote: »

LMFAO. Methinks the hippy is on the 'shrooms tonight.

George Washington, Michael Collins and Nelson Mandela would all have been condemned as fanatics in their own time by ruling powers.

Equally, Che Lynch would have been viewed in the same light.
Erect the statute. This is not Vietnam. You can't carpet bomb Galway.

smokedeels

Does anyone over the age of 18 think this guy was anything but a bigoted lunatic?

He's an interesting character and a good looking lad but his views and Cuba in general are at odds with the freedoms we should be striving for and celebrating in Europe.

I've seen people protest with his face on their t-shirts, if they tried that in the Cuba he helped build they would be arrested.

johngalway

Happy Monday wrote: »

George Washington, Michael Collins and Nelson Mandela would all have been condemned as fanatics in their own time by ruling powers.

Equally, Che Lynch would have been viewed in the same light.
Erect the statute. This is not Vietnam. You can't carpet bomb Galway.

You don't see the irony of listing three democratic figures to fail to prove a point regarding a communist then?

Happy Monday

johngalway wrote: »

You don't see the irony of listing three democratic figures to fail to prove a point regarding a communist then?

Collins was no democrat.
The Easter Rising was conducted against the wishes of the Irish people.
Collins served as a captain in the GPO.
His actions served to bring a greater freedom.

johngalway

Happy Monday wrote: »

His actions served to bring a greater freedom.

:pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GnWTy8Ebg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GnWTy8Ebg

Happy Monday

johngalway wrote: »

:pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GnWTy8Ebg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GnWTy8Ebg

? - wtf? - is that Ronnie Reagan.
The Irishman who changed his name and religion.
Give me an t-Uaiseal Che Lynch - a man proud of his Irish roots.

Wompa1

I was talking to a guy over in the states today about it. He's in his 70's and is of Irish heritage but hasn't ever claimed to being Irish. His reaction was pfffftt..doesn't really matter but it might upset a lot of Cuban families. There's a large Cuban population here and an even bigger one in Florida. I'd imagine it makes sense for a Florida politician to declare outrage whether he cares or not, since it equals a lot of votes from the Cuban population.

Most Americans won't know and won't care that Galway is putting up the statue because Galway is irrelevant to them.

fishy fishy

smokedeels wrote: »

Does anyone over the age of 18 think this guy was anything but a bigoted lunatic?

He's an interesting character and a good looking lad but his views and Cuba in general are at odds with the freedoms we should be striving for and celebrating in Europe.

I've seen people protest with his face on their t-shirts, if they tried that in the Cuba he helped build they would be arrested.

where do you get that logic from? is probably one of the funnier posts on here.

smokedeels

fishy fishy wrote: »

smokedeels wrote: »

Does anyone over the age of 18 think this guy was anything but a bigoted lunatic?

He's an interesting character and a good looking lad but his views and Cuba in general are at odds with the freedoms we should be striving for and celebrating in Europe.

I've seen people protest with his face on their t-shirts, if they tried that in the Cuba he helped build they would be arrested.

where do you get that logic from? is probably one of the funnier posts on here.

Trying something like occupy damestreet in Cuba would get you locked up. I know first hand that people involved in that movement support Cuba over America, I know which one I consider free, warts and all.

old hippy

johngalway wrote: »

LMFAO. Methinks the hippy is on the 'shrooms tonight.

I don't do drugs, so I guess you and your cohorts will have to find another tired & lazy assed cliche to dismiss those who don't tread your particular path of self righteous knee jerkery.

Duggys Housemate

Happy Monday wrote: »

Collins was no democrat.
The Easter Rising was conducted against the wishes of the Irish people.
Collins served as a captain in the GPO.
His actions served to bring a greater freedom.

Sure he was a democrat, So was Dev. ,I didn't see them building a dictatorship after the war of Independence.

( cue nonsense about the Church being as bad as Stalin, or something).

fishy fishy

smokedeels wrote: »

Trying something like occupy damestreet in Cuba would get you locked up. I know first hand that people involved in that movement support Cuba over America, I know which one I consider free, warts and all.

confused.com

General Zod

What Che was when he was alive is of no relation to the Cuba that exists today.

Duggys Housemate

fishy fishy wrote: »

confused.com

fishy fishy wrote: »

where do you get that logic from? is probably one of the funnier posts on here.

You've been confused twice by utterly simple sentences? Both posters were pointing out that protesting in Cuba isn't all that safe.

( Although, to be fair, it isn't quite North Korea).

old hippy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Sure he was a democrat, So was Dev. ,I didn't see them building a dictatorship after the war of Independence.

( cue nonsense about the Church being as bad as Stalin, or something).

Of course we had a dictatorship. We were used to injustice and being enslaved, which is why we chained ourselves to the evil auspices of the RCC. As a nation of victims, beaten abused and oppressed, we moved to the next father figure for more of the same. From the workhouses in famine times to the laundries in "independence", we learnt how to suffer and have our dreams crushed.

Eventually, we let our saviours, Fianna Fail and their cohorts take our money and our future and pimp us (Shannon Airport) out to their American friends all in the name of "freedom". Oh, the irony.

Che is a fecking god compared to what we've had in this beleagured land. He should be gold plated and venerated!

Duggys Housemate

old hippy wrote: »

Of course we had a dictatorship. We were used to injustice and being enslaved, which is why we chained ourselves to the evil auspices of the RCC. As a nation of victims, beaten abused and oppressed, we moved to the next father figure for more of the same. From the workhouses in famine times to the laundries in "independence", we learnt how to suffer and have our dreams crushed.

Nonsense, the laundries were appalling but nothing compared to a dictatorship. And we didn't have a dictatorship, we voted in whom we wanted to.

Eventually, we let our saviours, Fianna Fail and their cohorts take our money and our future and pimp us (Shannon Airport) out to their American friends all in the name of "freedom". Oh, the irony.

Yet, again, an elected government did this.. Many of us believed that Shannon should be used by the US. I think we should be in NATO, ahtough the Iraq war was nonsense.

Che is a fecking god compared to what we've had in this beleagured land. He should be gold plated and venerated!

He was a mass murderer, a torturer, and an apologist for Stalinism and Stalinist Imperialists. What we had ( and have) was a walk in the park with balloons compared to anything that ever happened in any communist hellhole, and we had, at any time, the chance to change whatever we want, or leave the Island legally. Unlike Cubans who cant. Or unlike cubans who cant write freely or anonymously on the internet. Like. You. Can.

the love of Stalinism is negatively proportional to the distance from it, you won't be emigrating to North Korea or Cuba, just hypocritically whining about democracies from the safety of democracies. I hated that ****e as a kid in the 80's and I hate it now.

RichieC

General Zod wrote: »

What Che was when he was alive is of no relation to the Cuba that exists today.

He certainly didn't help in the invasion of Cuba with the intention of creating and autocratic dictatorship. In fact, he entered simply as a medic.

The fighting done all sorts of strange things to him, but, he was never happy with the way Castro took the country. He didn't sit around enjoying the spoils.

By all accounts the man was a workaholic, he despised laziness. He spent from 59 to 64 travelling the world as an international diplomat, then, through boredom or disgust with Castro, went to the Congo to sit in bushes with a gun again, and then on to Bolivia were he met his end.

Really bugs the **** out of me the way the Right are trying to misrepresent him into the history books. I'll fight it tooth and nail.

And never forget this, If he was a right wing freedom fighter he would be the god of them. They simply despise anyone who dares defy the Washington ideological framework.

czx

RichieC wrote: »

He certainly didn't help in the invasion of Cuba with the intention of creating and autocratic dictatorship. In fact, he entered simply as a medic.

The fighting done all sorts of strange things to him, but, he was never happy with the way Castro took the country. He didn't sit around enjoying the spoils.

By all accounts the man was a workaholic, he despised laziness. He spent from 59 to 64 travelling the world as an international diplomat, then, through boredom or disgust with Castro, went to the Congo to sit in bushes with a gun again, and then on to Bolivia were he met his end.

Really bugs the **** out of me the way the Right are trying to misrepresent him into the history books. I'll fight it tooth and nail.

And never forget this, If he was a right wing freedom fighter he would be the god of them. They simply despise anyone who dares defy the Washington ideological framework.

And you would oppose him equally?

RichieC

czx wrote: »

And you would oppose him equally?

I would certainly oppose his ideology, yes. implicit in my statement, I thought.

czx

RichieC wrote: »

I would certainly oppose his ideology, yes. implicit in my statement, I thought.

His methods. A right wing Che

Paparazzo

booboo88 wrote: »

Is gonna erect itself is it?

That's what I said to your ma

fishy fishy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You've been confused twice by utterly simple sentences? Both posters were pointing out that protesting in Cuba isn't all that safe.

( Although, to be fair, it isn't quite North Korea).

a tad confused there duggy? there was only one poster - the details in said posters ramblings makes it evident that he/she is writing "blind",i.e. has no idea what they are talking about, purely re-hashing something that he/she ha heard before from somebody that also has no idea what they are talking about.

It's a pity more people doesn't really know more about Cuba, instead of pretending they do.

RichieC

czx wrote: »

His methods. A right wing Che

He would be rather mild for a right wing "revolutionary" ( lol oxymoron)

biko

fishy fishy wrote: »

It's a pity more people doesn't really know more about Cuba, instead of pretending they do.

How did you like it yourself? Quite hot in the summer eh?

czx

RichieC wrote: »

He would be rather mild for a right wing "revolutionary" ( lol oxymoron)

mild as in acceptable?

fishy fishy

biko wrote: »

How did you like it yourself? Quite hot in the summer eh?

i wouldn't go in the summer - November or December are my preferred months - maybe you prefer june/July eh Biko?

Grayson

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He was a mass murderer, a torturer, and an apologist for Stalinism and Stalinist Imperialists. What we had ( and have) was a walk in the park with balloons compared to anything that ever happened in any communist hellhole, and we had, at any time, the chance to change whatever we want, or leave the Island legally. Unlike Cubans who cant. Or unlike cubans who cant write freely or anonymously on the internet. Like. You. Can.

the love of Stalinism is negatively proportional to the distance from it, you won't be emigrating to North Korea or Cuba, just hypocritically whining about democracies from the safety of democracies. I hated that ****e as a kid in the 80's and I hate it now.

He originally loved stalinism. But after Cuba when completely communist and he saw the mess that it was making he turned away. He flirted with maoism and other communist ideologies in an effort to find one that would work in cuba or other third world countries. He would have despised North Korea.

Remember, communism itself isn't inherently evil. It was the application and the people who applied it that made it evil. I don't know if it would be possible to create a perfect socialist society. Plenty of people have written about it like huxley, but that's what Che was fighting for, not stalinism.

Grayson

fishy fishy wrote: »

i wouldn't go in the summer - November or December are my preferred months - maybe you prefer june/July eh Biko?

isn't that the rainy season? Or is that Sept/Oct?

fishy fishy

Grayson wrote: »

isn't that the rainy season? Or is that Sept/Oct?

june/November is hurricane season - to each his own

Grayson

fishy fishy wrote: »

june/November is hurricane season - to each his own

I was in the Caribbean in October one year. Lovely weather. Rained for two hours every day like clockwork. Lovely warm rain. The rest of the time it was a scorcher.

johngalway

old hippy wrote: »

I don't do drugs, so I guess you and your cohorts will have to find another tired & lazy assed cliche to dismiss those who don't tread your particular path of self righteous knee jerkery.

Nothing knee jerk about my self. I object to a statue of a communist revolutionary in Galway on moral grounds. Communist systems are repressive, cruel, and inhumane. But don't let facts get in the way of your version of Nirvana.

fishy fishy

Grayson wrote: »

I was in the Caribbean in October one year. Lovely weather. Rained for two hours every day like clockwork. Lovely warm rain. The rest of the time it was a scorcher.

one time I was flying to havana in november and flew right into the tail end of a hurricane - exciting.

Duggys Housemate

fishy fishy wrote: »

one time I was flying to havana in november and flew right into the tail end of a hurricane - exciting.

No chance of you emigrating then? to have the same rights as a Cuban citizen, and if not, why not?

fishy fishy

also, it might be good to note that when visiting Cuba you will be amazed to see just how many Americans make it their holiday destination.

Paparazzo

fishy fishy wrote: »

It's a pity more people doesn't really know more about Cuba, instead of pretending they do.

When are you moving there? Apparently loads of irish that cant get jobs are heading there. I heard loads of americans risk their lives by floating across from florida to cuba it's such a great place to start a new life.

fishy fishy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

No chance of you emigrating then? to have the same rights as a Cuban citizen, and if not, why not?

i would have no problem whatsoever living in cuba - I suppose duggy you are still listening to what they supposedly "can't do". Pity - maybe take a trip and see exactly what goes on there. I supposed people who like their mcdonalds and abercrombie stores might have a problem tho. :rolleyes:

Remember, in Europe Cuba is a holiday destination, try going there and then return with a bit more reality.

fishy fishy

Paparazzo wrote: »

When are you moving there? Apparently loads of irish that cant get jobs are heading there. I heard loads of americans risk their lives by floating across from florida to cuba it's such a great place to start a new life.

whatever impressions "floats your boat" paparazzo. (pardon the pun).

fishy fishy

biko wrote: »

How did you like it yourself? Quite hot in the summer eh?

you never came back and said how you liked it biko?

Duggys Housemate

fishy fishy wrote: »

i would have no problem whatsoever living in cuba - I suppose duggy you are still listening to what they supposedly "can't do". Pity - maybe take a trip and see exactly what goes on there. I supposed people who like their mcdonalds and abercrombie stores might have a problem tho. :rolleyes:

Remember, in Europe Cuba is a holiday destination, try going there and then return with a bit more reality.

You have no problem living there and yet you live here. I want you to live there, by the way, with the same rights as a Cuban ( although, unlikely for the one or two Europeans who live there). This would mean, at a minimum.

1) No democracy.
2) No access to the internet.
3) No right to leave.
4) and no modern consumer goods, although they do have a lot of 50's Americana, which is quaint.


I have a cousin who loves Australia, and has since he was a kid. I never got it myself. He went on holiday there as a teenager with family, then again in college on his own bat, and quite a few times since then.

Where is he living now?
Australia.

Where are you living now?
Not-cuba.

Stalinism is, I find, better lived by other people at a distance, even for Stalinists. Especially for Stalinists.

During the cold war apologists for Cuba were drowned out by apologists for the East German state, or Hungary, or Mao's China, or the Soviet Union itself. And meanwhile, in a country which bled people in the 80's, we couldn't get one stalinist apologist to live anywhere but capitalist democracies. Frankly, I would have paid them to go. Time moves on, and there is only two real stalinist States left, and very few people fetishise North Korea, so the hypocrisy is concentrated on Cuba.

fishy fishy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You have no problem living there and yet you live here. I want you to live there, by the way, with the same rights as a Cuban ( although, unlikely for the one or two Europeans who live there). This would mean, at a minimum.

1) No democracy.
2) No access to the internet.
3) No right to leave.
4) and no modern consumer goods, although they do have a lot of 50's Americana, which is quaint.


I have a cousin who loves Australia, and has since he was a kid. I never got it myself. He went on holiday there as a teenager with family, then again in college on his own bat, and quite a few times since then.

Where is he living now?
Australia.

Where are you living now?
Not-cuba.

Stalinism is, I find, better lived by other people at a distance, even for Stalinists. Especially for Stalinists.

During the cold war apologists for Cuba were drowned out by apologists for the East German state, or Hungary, or Mao's China, or the Soviet Union itself. And meanwhile, in a country which bled people in the 80's, we couldn't get one stalinist apologist to live anywhere but capitalist democracies. Frankly, I would have paid them to go. Time moves on, and there is only two real stalinist States left, and very few people fetishise North Korea, so the hypocrisy is concentrated on Cuba.

thats a typical response from somebody who relies on somebody else to tell them how to think! save up and go yourself dugs - you will be AMAZED at the difference between whats in your head and what reality is. :cool:

Duggys Housemate

fishy fishy wrote: »

thats a typical response from somebody who relies on somebody else to tell them how to think!

Lol, like Castro tells you what to think.

save up and go yourself dugs - you will be AMAZED at the difference between whats in your head and what reality is. :cool:

I am sure that some people come back from North Korean glowing with how great it is, that is because what they see there is controlled.

If you have been there, you have never talked to a local, or just to stooges, you saw what you wanted to see.

And you deflected the question you quoted. If it is so good, if we are such fools in the west, if it is as good as you say, why are you not living there?

fishy fishy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Lol, like Castro tells you what to think.



I am sure that some people come back from North Korean glowing with how great it is, that is because what they see there is controlled.

If you have been there, you have never talked to a local, or just to stooges, you saw what you wanted to see.

And you deflected the question you quoted. If it is so good, if we are such fools in the west, if it is as good as you say, why are you not living there?

keep digging the hole for yourself duggy - you're doing a fine job.

old hippy

johngalway wrote: »

Nothing knee jerk about my self. I object to a statue of a communist revolutionary in Galway on moral grounds. Communist systems are repressive, cruel, and inhumane. But don't let facts get in the way of your version of Nirvana.

"Methinks the hippy is on the 'shrooms tonight" - and that's a fact, too, is it? Hmmm?

Some would say capitalist systems are repressive, cruel and inhumane also.

Paparazzo

fishy fishy wrote: »

i would have no problem whatsoever living in cuba - I suppose duggy you are still listening to what they supposedly "can't do". Pity - maybe take a trip and see exactly what goes on there. I supposed people who like their mcdonalds and abercrombie stores might have a problem tho. :rolleyes:

Remember, in Europe Cuba is a holiday destination, try going there and then return with a bit more reality.

Ah yes, a holiday destination, that means it's ok. One of my mates is just back from China, another holiday destination, another from Egypt. But the must be ok, they're holiday destinations.
You can have a good time in any of these countrys on holidays, but seriously, if you think the biggest drawback of living in Cuba is having no McDonalds, you're seriously deluding yourself.
Have a look at the press freedom index: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
I'm guessing you'd come back from a guided tour of North Korea and think the place is tickety boo. I'm still waiting for you to call us "sheeple" for thinking Cuba is an opressive dictatorship

smokedeels

old hippy wrote: »

johngalway wrote: »

Nothing knee jerk about my self. I object to a statue of a communist revolutionary in Galway on moral grounds. Communist systems are repressive, cruel, and inhumane. But don't let facts get in the way of your version of Nirvana.

"Methinks the hippy is on the 'shrooms tonight" - and that's a fact, too, is it? Hmmm?

Some would say capitalist systems are repressive, cruel and inhumane also.

Capitalism for all its flaws is still the only system that in practice allows people a voice, a vote and control over their own lives (to a degree I'll admit)

We'll probably move towards a global Marxist system when we burn through our natural resources, I agree with some of the ideas.

However, the experiments with it places like Cuba, Russia and North Korea are/were deplorable and nobody on this website would want to live in any of those places.

johngalway

old hippy wrote: »

"Methinks the hippy is on the 'shrooms tonight" - and that's a fact, too, is it? Hmmm?

Some would say capitalist systems are repressive, cruel and inhumane also.

Speculation based on your "reasoning", or apparent lack of.

You know what, I'm sure some do, however, Democratic Governments have an awful long way to go to catch up with Communism.

I particularly liked this part:

"Courtois claims that Communist regimes are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including Nazism."

Do you deny there are political prisoners in Cuba?
Do you deny that people risk their lives to get off that island to live in free countries on makeshift rafts?

Broaden your own horizons with Human Rights Watch's report on Cuba for 2012.

Their biggest problem with Democratic Ireland? Access to abortion - which we should have.

Jesus, I feel the state jackboot on my neck here, I'm off to North Korea for some R&R :eek:

Happy Monday

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Sure he was a democrat, So was Dev. ,I didn't see them building a dictatorship after the war of Independence.

( cue nonsense about the Church being as bad as Stalin, or something).

Dev expressed his condolences at the death of one Adolf Hitler.
He also opposed the vote taken to pass the Treaty and kicked off a civil war.

Collins was commander in chief of the armed forces during 1922.
El Commandante if you will just like Che.
No political office for him.

Not exactly dyed in the wool democrats.

Duggys Housemate

Happy Monday wrote: »

Dev expressed his condolences at the death of one Adolf Hitler.

Which doesn't make him a dictator.

He also opposed the vote taken to pass the Treaty and kicked off a civil war.

Opposing a vote didn't make him a dictator.

Collins was commander in chief of the armed forces during 1922.

Which didn't make him a dictator.

Not exactly dyed in the wool democrats.

You sorta missed the whole democratic thing which came next. The laying down of arms, the voting, the Dail, the multi-party elections and so on.

If Fidel had done that he would

1) Not be in power now
2) Be a democrat.

he isn't a dictator because he took up arms against Batista, but because he is a dictator. Its what came next.

remedially yours.

Duggy's housemate.

Happy Monday

Too long to quote.
Collins undemocratically took part in 1916.
Similar to Che in overthrowing Batista.
They both held military positions to help overthrow regimes.

Duggys Housemate

Happy Monday wrote: »

Too long to quote.
Collins undemocratically took part in 1916.
Similar to Che in overthrowing Batista.
They both held military positions to help overthrow regimes.

You sorta missed the whole democratic thing which came next. The laying down of arms, the voting, the Dail, the multi-party elections and so on.

If Fidel had done that he would

1) Not be in power now
2) Be a democrat.

he isn't a dictator because he took up arms against Batista, but because he is a dictator. Its what came next.