Rally Car Crashes into Spectators in Cavan- Two Dead Seven Injured

Mr Benevolent

Stark wrote: »

7 recorded deaths over 10 years in Germany alone:

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

Good god. But wait! There have been about 1500 deaths from airline crashes in the last ten years. Shocking eh? Let's ban aviation!

hondasam

McBauer wrote: »

This was such a stupid, tasteless, ignorant and disrespectful comment considering only a few posts prior to it someone had said that they were related to 2 people who were among the injured today.

People like Temptamperu deserve a ban for posting comments like.

I don't think it was meant in a bad way, wrong word used.
Speedy recovery is something we all say, I don't think Hairyprincess meant anything nasty or funny.

Paparazzo

hairyprincess wrote: »

I'm out. This is ridiculous.

Rallying is dangerous. I will back any and every campaign to have it banned. Nothing anybody will say will ever convince me otherwise.

RIP to the unfortunate souls who lost their lives. And I wish those who were injured a speedy recovery.

You cant be serious. You should compile a list of all activities that you wouldn't ban.

YbFocus

My thoughts are with the families of everyone involved, including the driver and co-driver.

I'm sorry but to think about banning the sport is silly, spectators know the dangers and MI and the motor clubs go through hell to keep it as safe as possible.
There are safety clerks which pass through each stage checking everything, 00 cars sweeping the stage at under race speed, always an MI inspector there too. Tape always shows the spectators where they must not stand (outside of junctions, bends, dangerous jumps etc.)

If any of these are not happy the stage simply wont go ahead, there that serious on safety.

This was a hugely unfortunate accident that happened on a straight stretch of road.

There should be no banning of the sport, people who are there are aware of the risks, not like the soccer fans who are crushed in stampedes or banning airshows!

People who fly this summer for their holidays etc could be involved in a crash I'm sure they didnt want to be in either so should all aviation be banned also???

I reckon this needs to be quelled as this, as sad as it is, it happens.
People love their pass times whether spectators or part-takers, some are dangerous but it wont stop fans loving it and I will continue to love this sport and everything about it!

funkey_monkey

hairyprincess wrote: »

It's one thing for the participants to be injured, but spectators should not leave their homes to watch a 'sport', and come home in a coffin as a result.

So should we ban football too - Hillborough, Hysel, Glasgow.

Or how about the GAA...

dr.bollocko

mod:

Some posts removed.

Please continue to report any posts which cross the line.

Please PM for clarification.

Fair warning.

wendell borton

hairyprincess wrote: »

I was trying to think of other 'sports' in which spectators, members of the media, gardai, children are put at risk, and the only other 'sport' I can think of is bull running. Which incidentally I would also like to see banned.

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”

Ernest Hemingway

Dave22B

RIP Joe and Caroline..

Met Joe for the first time at the Birr Stages a couple of months back.Genuinely one of the nicest fellas i have met.His passion for rallying was infectious.Gutted when i heard the news.

Condolences to all the families involved..

BUBBLE WRAP

Stark wrote: »

7 recorded deaths over 10 years in Germany alone:

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

That was acculy supposed to be a joke. Im on the rally side. Ive been to a good few rallys myself and I seen the work stuerts (or what ever you call them) and they do there best to help with the safety side of thing during a rally. But these accidents happen unfortinitly and banning rally is the most outrages idea ive ever heard.

red sean

I would also like to add my condolences to the families of the deceased.
Caroline and Joe, Rest in peace.
You've died doing what you loved.
I hope all the injured make full and speedy recoveries, including the unfortunate crew involved. I'm sure Michael did everything in his power to avoid this tragic accident.

To those who are over-reacting by calling for a ban on this great sport, Let me just say this.
I've been involved in this sport for many long years. First as a spectator, then a marshall, competitor and in latter years as an organiser. If you only knew the months of hard work that goes into an event like this, mainly concerned with safety you would then feel qualified to speak on the matter.

Rallying is a very important source of revenue generation in this country and this will be verified by the local tourism bodies in every county where a rally takes. While some residents along the route in every area may resent it, 99% will welcome it.
Rallying is a great sport, and an industry.
Please stop knee-jerk reactions, they do no good for anyone.

twincamman

people know the dangers of rallying before the go to one .and i dont think today is the day to be arguing about it.rip joe and caroline

Mountainsandh

RIP, and thoughts are with the families at this very sad time. I hope the injured will recover.



I can understand how some people like the sport, but I cannot fathom how a motorclub might think it's ok to just land that on people who live on the rally path.
I am one of these people and have had a rally pass my house twice (2 different years). One year we got a letter, the next there was a notice affixed to a tree, a little laminated A5 piece of paper 1km from my house.
The letter (and notice) did not give explanations, or safety advice, simply stated that the rally was on that day, and that our road would be closed.

The first year I stayed, and was terrified of a car crashing into my garden, or even my house, and me with the babies in it.
We're on a near straightline for about 1.5km, but there is a hint of a diagonal as you come up to my house, the cars were going so fast I couldn't make out what kind of cars they were looking out the window.

There were no marshalls to be seen in my area, in fact since I didn't move from the house I didn't see one for the entire day. I could have had 40 guests sitting on my walls and no one would have been the wiser.

Needless to say I stayed away the second time.

Feasable safety measures not applied as far as I'm concerned. There should be marshalls every where (that is, one person with radio and good eyesight in all strategic points), or else no rally. Simple. No half measures.

edit : just saw post of person who participated in organising rallies : these months of hard work to ensure safety failed to ensure safety on my stretch.

upandcumming

Mountainsandh wrote: »

RIP, and thoughts are with the families at this very sad time. I hope the injured will recover.



I can understand how some people like the sport, but I cannot fathom how a motorclub might think it's ok to just land that on people who live on the rally path.
I am one of these people and have had a rally pass my house twice (2 different years). One year we got a letter, the next there was a notice affixed to a tree, a little laminated A5 piece of paper 1km from my house.
The letter (and notice) did not give explanations, or safety advice, simply stated that the rally was on that day, and that our road would be closed.

The first year I stayed, and was terrified of a car crashing into my garden, or even my house, and me with the babies in it.
We're on a near straightline for about 1.5km, but there is a hint of a diagonal as you come up to my house, the cars were going so fast I couldn't make out what kind of cars they were looking out the window.

There were no marshalls to be seen in my area, in fact since I didn't move from the house I didn't see one for the entire day. I could have had 40 guests sitting on my walls and no one would have been the wiser.

Needless to say I stayed away the second time.

Feasable safety measures not applied as far as I'm concerned. There should be marshalls every where (that is, one person with radio and good eyesight in all strategic points), or else no rally. Simple. No half measures.

edit : just saw post of person who participated in organising rallies : these months of hard work to ensure safety failed to ensure safety on my stretch.

I don't know where you live, but when I did PR for my local event, I talked to loads of residents along the route. We had to talk to each resident and explain what was happening.

In all my years of going to rallies all over the country, almost 20 years, I've never seen a rally car crash into a home, be the house on the road, or away from it.
To say that you couldn't make out what kind of cars went past from the window makes complete sense; you wouldn't be able to do it for road cars.

All feasible safety measures are in place. You simple cannot have marshals on every bit of road. The Cavan Stages today was over 140km of competitive stages. Marshals are volunteers and are deployed at junctions that have access to them, not bits of road that have no access, except walking through fields. And in all cases in my memory, any areas that are dangerous that are not at a junction are manned. I know, I've done it.

somefeen

hairyprincess wrote: »

I'm out. This is ridiculous.

Rallying is dangerous. I will back any and every campaign to have it banned. Nothing anybody will say will ever convince me otherwise.

RIP to the unfortunate souls who lost their lives. And I wish those who were injured a speedy recovery.

Well here, when the campaign starts lets hope its open to a reasonable debate and not a black and white "ban the thing" like you yourself. You'll soon find yourselves labelled as extremists if your not able to compromise. Campaign for better safety and crowd control standards or make people aware of the dangers.
If nothing anyone can say is going to alter your position then that means, like all other campaigns founded on this principal, you'll be producing some incredibily sensationalist bull**** in the next few months.
I expect this is going to be carefully written to obscure the fact that your campaigners want it banned for their benefit and nothing else. Just using safety as an excuse.
Good luck with joining the ranks of The Sun Newspaper. I'm sure you'll do fine

Pdfile

yes the sport is dangerous but what sport of the same calibour isn't ??

R.I.P to those who died, i really mean it as its a terrible way to go out, But... one ask's if you live by the sword...

which is not to say this sport is exceedingly dangerous but the cars do get a fair bit of speed going ( depending on class ) cars are deadly weapons, and ameteur rallying is like any ametuer sport, acidents happen.

red sean

Mountainsandh wrote: »

RIP, and thoughts are with the families at this very sad time. I hope the injured will recover.



I can understand how some people like the sport, but I cannot fathom how a motorclub might think it's ok to just land that on people who live on the rally path.
I am one of these people and have had a rally pass my house twice (2 different years). One year we got a letter, the next there was a notice affixed to a tree, a little laminated A5 piece of paper 1km from my house.
The letter (and notice) did not give explanations, or safety advice, simply stated that the rally was on that day, and that our road would be closed.

The first year I stayed, and was terrified of a car crashing into my garden, or even my house, and me with the babies in it.
We're on a near straightline for about 1.5km, but there is a hint of a diagonal as you come up to my house, the cars were going so fast I couldn't make out what kind of cars they were looking out the window.

There were no marshalls to be seen in my area, in fact since I didn't move from the house I didn't see one for the entire day. I could have had 40 guests sitting on my walls and no one would have been the wiser.

Needless to say I stayed away the second time.

Feasable safety measures not applied as far as I'm concerned. There should be marshalls every where (that is, one person with radio and good eyesight in all strategic points), or else no rally. Simple. No half measures.

edit : just saw post of person who participated in organising rallies : these months of hard work to ensure safety failed to ensure safety on my stretch.

In reply, let me say I or nobody else can comment on events you mention.
There are a number of factors for this.
We do'nt know where these events were held,
When they were held,
Acessability or otherwise for the general public to your house,etc. etc.

If you had called your local Garda Station when you saw the sign, I'm sure they would have filled you in in advance, even if the organising club failed to do so.
The Gardai are actively involved in the running of every rally from the very early days to the finish and beyond.

flanum

Utmost sympathies to the families of the tragedy today. , and fast recovery to those injured please god. im not a rally fan but i work with several lads who part time rally themselves and we deal with a lad that was rallying today, these guys live and breathe the sport, i dont think it fair to start dissing a sport altogether from what i gather was a freak accident..... so heres a clip i took from last years cavan stages rally 100 yds from my house, as you can see its a good mad skidding vantage point to be looking at it, and you can see plenty of marshalls, they all made sure we were well up in the woods up the hill looking down onit.... if a car had of crashed towards us, we were well up above it. (btw me camera was on zoom)...

paul-2008

flanum wrote: »

accordin to version of boards, its a clip of the rally, but it goes onto a clip i have of a couple dogs.... does it show just the dogs?? i tried re-editing a few times.... would somebody do me a four and go on to youtube and look up member "flanum" and find the uploaded videos of cavan stages rally 2011, theres only a couple, thats me btw!

yeah the rally videos there now!! first time it was the dogs

flanum

as you can see there were plenty of marshalls on that one bend ... i can onl geuss because i wasnt there, but it might have happened on a straight maybe?

Jacksquat

RIP to those who lost their lives and condolences to their loved ones.

Mountainsandh

upandcumming wrote: »

I don't know where you live, but when I did PR for my local event, I talked to loads of residents along the route. We had to talk to each resident and explain what was happening.

In all my years of going to rallies all over the country, almost 20 years, I've never seen a rally car crash into a home, be the house on the road, or away from it.
To say that you couldn't make out what kind of cars went past from the window makes complete sense; you wouldn't be able to do it for road cars.

All feasible safety measures are in place. You simple cannot have marshals on every bit of road. The Cavan Stages today was over 140km of competitive stages. Marshals are volunteers and are deployed at junctions that have access to them, not bits of road that have no access, except walking through fields. And in all cases in my memory, any areas that are dangerous that are not at a junction are manned. I know, I've done it.

No. I'm sorry, not good enough imo. If someone is going to organise such an event, fine, but they simply have to follow it up with adequate safety measures, and omitting sections on the track because you don't have enough marshalls is not adequate safety measures, it's making do.
Let the people enjoy their sport, but not with making do measures. More marshalls needed, paid or not, find them. Simple. We're not talking littering there, we're talking safety.
That my road is away from junctions is irrelevant. I could have these 40 people barbecueing at my place all day.
Actually my child's birthday is close to that date, I could have had a bouncy castle and 6 kids in there for the day, in my front garden. You would be perfectly comfortable with that as a marshall then ? Even though you may be 3km away ?

Stark

Surely you're not having a bouncy castle. Because bouncy castles are dangerous you know: http://www.herald.ie/news/little-amys-tragic-death-sparks-new-bouncy-castle-safety-alert-2651604.html

Ghost Buster

planetX wrote: »

Horrible news.
but I hate rallys - I get forced out of my house for an entire sunday because they close the road where I live (and I'm not going to be stuck in waiting for a car to come thru my wall). Have to keep my pets indoors for the day before and after as well. I live on a dangerous narrow country road, where people drive too fast every day and because of them you risk your life walking or cycling. What message does a rally send, driving dangerously fast on unsuitable roads is a sport?

I hear that . And where i live the local rally organisers, who were involved in this event as well are the same lot who drive like psychos all year round. I have been confined to or kept out of my home on several occasions and really resent it because of this.

Ghost Buster

hairyprincess wrote: »

'Those rallies', as in rallies in general. I think you knew exactly what I meant.

I detest rallies and always have done. Individual people and groups have fought to get speed limits reduced. There are constant advertisements encouraging people to slow down. And then we have this legalized race, which fine has professional drivers taking part, but it is encouraging 'boy racers' thinking they are the next best thing. And people standing inches away from cars speeding.

There is no sense to it. It is not a sport. And I would 100% back a campaign to ban it. I have always held that opinion, long before the events of today.



A senseless waste of life of course. Do you think it wasn't a waste?

PogMoThoin wrote: »

FFS. What a backward statement. Should we ban all motorsport? Formula 1 encourages the same, should we ban that?

Come to my house and watch the sons and relations of our local rally organisers chuck their Subaru round our back roads. I've had em in court once and won but it still hasnt stopped.

kevin65

Mountainsandh wrote: »

No. I'm sorry, not good enough imo. If someone is going to organise such an event, fine, but they simply have to follow it up with adequate safety measures, and omitting sections on the track because you don't have enough marshalls is not adequate safety measures, it's making do.
Let the people enjoy their sport, but not with making do measures. More marshalls needed, paid or not, find them. Simple. We're not talking littering there, we're talking safety.
That my road is away from junctions is irrelevant. I could have these 40 people barbecueing at my place all day.
Actually my child's birthday is close to that date, I could have had a bouncy castle and 6 kids in there for the day, in my front garden. You would be perfectly comfortable with that as a marshall then ? Even though you may be 3km away ?

I don't know what happend at this event and my condolences to the families of the deceased, but just want to make the point that it is the co-operation of the public with the organisers and marshalls of events the ultimately help ensure safety.

I have marshalled on rallies in the past and witnessed examples of some people who refused to obey directions from marshalls and stood in the prohibited areas, which were clearly identified.

homer simpson

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Come to my house and watch the sons and relations of our local rally organisers chuck their Subaru round our back roads. I've had em in court once and won but it still hasnt stopped.

Really? On what grounds? What motorclub , rally and when was this. Im intrigued because its the first I've heard of it and it would have been smewhat a landmark case for many reasons regardless of what the charges were if you've won. Any links???

cournioni

Awful tragedy, it happened only a few miles from where my parents live. May they RIP and my condolences to the families of the victims.

I must be honest when I say this that I had a gut feeling that something was going to happen at it. It was just too good of a day and people can sometimes get a false sense of security when the weather is so good. Spectators, regardless of how well marshaled these events are, will always look to get the best view of the rally over their own safety. There may be an element of safety in their thinking, but it takes a back seat to the view of the rally in a lot of cases.

These rallys are not like track races, all you have protecting you in most cases is a hedge or a wall, there are no tire walls or crash barriers to stand behind. All you have is what is on the road on every other day of the week. This is not good enough to ensure safety of spectators in my opinion.

I know that rally enthusiasts here will argue that "you can't wrap yourself up in bubble wrap" etc. but this simply is not good enough. Spectators have their place and that should not be within touching distance of these cars. Simple as. People forget that a lot of the drivers out there yesterday were amateur rally drivers, meaning that they are more likely to crash than a professional who does it day in day out.

I am not saying that rallying should be banned, far from it, but I am saying that the safety of the spectators should definitely be looked at and the marshaling of these rallies should also be looked at. There may be safety measures in place but they are not good enough.

It was a horrible accident yesterday, but not a freak accident, it was an accident waiting to happen.

Happyman42

homer_simpson wrote: »

That fact is it was a tragic, freak accident.

The fact is as you well know is that it wasn't an 'accident'. The cars and drivers are prepared for this kind of exit from the race. Don't be disingenuous.

The fact that one of these people was a marshall and was standing with up to 10 others at a dangerous place and didn't stop the race is extraordinary.
Any sensible/responsible person can assess danger and the 'accident' was that the people vested with that responsibility didn't do it.

A 'responsible' reaction to this event would be to stop all rallying and carry out a root and branch review of all courses and all marshalls ability. This is not the same as somebody dying participating in a sport, no marshall, no organiser can assess the level of competence of an individual spectating a sport.

I have asked before on two threads (now closed) what are the 'tests' carried out on driver competence before taking part in a rally? To my knowledge there is no specific licence that has to be attained that allows you to rally, it seems to me that as long as you turn up with a car that passes scrutiny then you can take part.

If 14 drivers safely negotitated the 'crest' then you have to ask, was the driver safe and competent?

The Big Red Button

Just saw this article about the woman who was killed. She was pregnant, and her boyfriend, the father of her unborn child, appears to have been driving the car due after the car involved in the accident.

According to the article, "Mr Hayde was visibly shaken and said that he did not wish to comment."

WTF is wrong with certain members of the media ... who in the world would even consider asking a man for a comment in those circumstances? :mad: Absolute scumbags.

homer simpson

Happyman42 wrote: »

The fact is as you well know is that it wasn't an 'accident'. The cars and drivers are prepared for this kind of exit from the race. Don't be disingenuous.

The fact that one of these people was a marshall and was standing with up to 10 others at a dangerous place and didn't stop the race is extraordinary.
Any sensible/responsible person can assess danger and the 'accident' was that the people vested with that responsibility didn't do it.

A 'responsible' reaction to this event would be to stop all rallying and carry out a root and branch review of all courses and all marshalls ability. This is not the same as somebody dying participating in a sport, no marshall, no organiser can assess the level of competence of an individual spectating a sport.

This is quite possibly the most disrespectful post on here. You more or less running Caroline, RIP, into the ground in your post and what makes you think you have the right to do so???

Also It is not a "fact" that it wasn't an accident, if it wasn't an accident your implying that it is inevitable that it was going to happen its not the case, you clearly know nothing about sport and IMO have no grounds to be posting about it. I was talking to a friend of mine last night who witnessed the accident and he said the car landed from a jump heavily and something seemed to break in the car as it suddenly swerved.

It was an Accident and a tragic one show some respect.

I have asked before on two threads (now closed) what are the 'tests' carried out on driver competence before taking part in a rally? To my knowledge there is no specific licence that has to be attained that allows you to rally, it seems to me that as long as you turn up with a car that passes scrutiny then you can take part.

If 14 drivers safely negotitated the 'crest' then you have to ask, was the driver safe and competent?

All nonsense and again it shows your lack of knowledge on the issue. You don't just arrive and drive to compete on a road closed stages rally you need the proper license to do so, in the case of Cavan yesterday its a nat B license you need. To get that you first off need to compete in a course in an approved (by the motorsport governing body) rally school, that then entitles you to do multi purpose / sprint type events which are held in controlled environments like a track or abandoned airfield. You have to complete, as in finish not start and fail to finish, 4 of these events and have your license "signed" to prove such, that then entitles you to compete on clubman events, these tend to be held in forest parks ect or again airfeilds or "junior" rallies, again you need to get 4 signatures on your license that then you have a Nat B license witch entitles you to compete in a National rally like the one in Cavan.

Your comment on the 14 cars passed the point of the accident is again very very insulting, the driver is well know for being very good at what he does and is amongst the top drivers in the country. Again it was a freak accident!!!!

homer simpson

chatterpillar wrote: »

Just saw this article about the woman who was killed. She was pregnant, and her boyfriend, the father of her unborn child, appears to have been driving the car due after the car involved in the accident.

According to the article, "Mr Hayde was visibly shaken and said that he did not wish to comment."

WTF is wrong with certain members of the media ... who in the world would even consider asking a man for a comment in those circumstances? :mad: Absolute scumbags.

Sean isn't a Driver either he is a navigator. The amount of nonsense written in articles in the rags today is shocking. I don't know where they got some of the information out of things like "its the first time the rally has been held in Cavan" even though there has been a rally in cavan every year since I can remember.

rayofsunshine

sean is a co driver and was NOT competing yesterday i know this as he is family and 2 of the injured 2 and have some respect for my family and joes family at the moment noone cares that any of yous dont like rallying some people are reared with this sport.papers are full of lies and shudnt be believed.tahnks to all those who have sympathised and tanks to those who have nutin good to say about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rip caroline and joe and get well soon boys xxxxxxx

Happyman42

homer_simpson wrote: »

This is quite possibly the most disrespectful post on here. You more or less running Caroline, RIP, into the ground in your post and what makes you think you have the right to do so???

Enough of the handwringing.....what is dis-respectful is allowing these people to be in a dangerous place in the the first instance...don't you think? It is quite evident that you can't 'respect' safety at events of this type.

Also It is not a "fact" that it wasn't an accident, if it wasn't an accident your implying that it is inevitable that it was going to happen its not the case, you clearly know nothing about sport and IMO have no grounds to be posting about it. I was talking to a friend of mine last night who witnessed the accident and he said the car landed from a jump heavily and something seemed to break in the car as it suddenly swerved.

It was an Accident and a tragic one show some respect.

Of course it's inevitable, show me one rally team that haven't crashed out of an event like this...show me a team that doesn't strigently prepare their cars to survive an exit like this?
The tragedy is that nobody intervened to ensure the safety of spectators. If rallies were stopped because people won't move from dangerous areas then, very soon they would, because there would be no reason to be standing there. A large element position themselves around a course at spots where exits are likely, you will do your argument no favours denying this simple fact. You only have to look at what people post to youtube to see what one of the main attractions of this sport are.
It's the same as any sport, you want to see teams, individuals tested to the extreme.

All nonsense and again it shows your lack of knowledge on the issue. You don't just arrive and drive to compete on a road closed stages rally you need the proper license to do so, in the case of Cavan yesterday its a nat B license you need. To get that you first off need to compete in a course in an approved (by the motorsport governing body) rally school, that then entitles you to do multi purpose / sprint type events which are held in controlled environments like a track or abandoned airfield. You have to complete, as in finish not start and fail to finish, 4 of these events and have your license "signed" to prove such, that then entitles you to compete on clubman events, these tend to be held in forest parks ect or again airfeilds or "junior" rallies, again you need to get 4 signatures on your license that then you have a Nat B license witch entitles you to compete in a National rally like the one in Cavan.

I know this ^, these are participation criteria, there is no testing on rally circuits is there? This driver failed but he is allowed to participate the following week with no sanction, penalty or caution, why? because his 'failure' is part of the attraction, if that is to be the case then organisers can't shirk their responsibility to the innocent spectators, whatever the cost.
The simple expedient of introducing a speed limit if people are in dangerous areas would be a start and very easy to do with modern technology.

Your comment on the 14 cars passed the point of the accident is again very very insulting, the driver is well know for being very good at what he does and is amongst the top drivers in the country. Again it was a freak accident!!!!

He wasn't good enough though. 2 people are dead.

cournioni

homer_simpson wrote: »

This is quite possibly the most disrespectful post on here. You more or less running Caroline, RIP, into the ground in your post and what makes you think you have the right to do so???

Also It is not a "fact" that it wasn't an accident, if it wasn't an accident your implying that it is inevitable that it was going to happen its not the case, you clearly know nothing about sport and IMO have no grounds to be posting about it. I was talking to a friend of mine last night who witnessed the accident and he said the car landed from a jump heavily and something seemed to break in the car as it suddenly swerved.

It was an Accident and a tragic one show some respect.


Again it was a freak accident!!!!

Without being disrespectful.

Generally speaking, how were these people allowed to be within touching distance of these cars? It is exactly this kind of complacency that causes tragic events like yesterday.

It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way. Like yourself, I also know people that witnessed the accident.

rayofsunshine

cournioni wrote: »

Without being disrespectful.

Generally speaking, how were these people allowed to be within touching distance of these cars? It is exactly this kind of complacency that causes tragic events like yesterday.

It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way. Like yourself, I also know people that witnessed the accident.

these people who are all talkin about are my family they were in a place where was proved safe ACCIDENTS do happen!!!!!!!!!!!!! it no fault rallying is dangerous every clap handy knws that but please do keep repeating yourselves that helping my family joes familys and helping my 2 relatives in hospital recovering so much faster!!!!!!!!!!! stop pointing blame and go find something to do with yer lives

homer simpson

Happyman42 wrote: »

Enough of the handwringing.....what is dis-respectful is allowing these people to be in a dangerous place in the the first instance...don't you think? It is quite evident that you can't 'respect' safety at events of this type.



Of course it's inevitable, show me one rally team that haven't crashed out of an event like this...show me a team that doesn't strigently prepare their cars to survive an exit like this?
The tragedy is that nobody intervened to ensure the safety of spectators. If rallies were stopped because people won't move from dangerous areas then, very soon they would, because there would be no reason to be standing there. A large element position themselves around a course at spots where exits are likely, you will do your argument no favours denying this simple fact. You only have to look at what people post to youtube to see what one of the main attractions of this sport are.
It's the same as any sport, you want to see teams, individuals tested to the extreme.




I know this ^, these are participation criteria, there is no testing on rally circuits is there? This driver failed but he is allowed to participate the following week with no sanction, penalty or caution, why? because his 'failure' is part of the attraction, if that is to be the case then organisers can't shirk their responsibility to the innocent spectators, whatever the cost.
The simple expedient of introducing a speed limit if people are in dangerous areas would be a start and very easy to do with modern technology.



He wasn't good enough though. 2 people are dead.

Word's fail me, I have just explained some things to you that it seems that driver error wasn't to blame, but yet you still accuse him of manslaughter.You do realise you could be brought to court by the driver over your accusations here that it isn't an accident and the driver is to blame right?

Your either 1- very naive or 2- trolling, either way welcome to my ignore list population 1. :rolleyes:

rayofsunshine

homer_simpson wrote: »

Word's fail me, I have just explained some things to you that it seems that driver error wasn't to blame, but yet you still accuse him of manslaughter.You do realise you could be brought to court by the driver over your accusations here that it isn't an accident and the driver is to blame right?

Your either 1- very naive or 2- trolling, either way welcome to my ignore list population 1. :rolleyes:

Thank you at least someone standing up for all involved

Happyman42

homer_simpson wrote: »

Word's fail me, I have just explained some things to you that it seems that driver error wasn't to blame, but yet you still accuse him of manslaughter.You do realise you could be brought to court by the driver over your accusations here that it isn't an accident and the driver is to blame right?

Your either 1- very naive or 2- trolling, either way welcome to my ignore list population 1. :rolleyes:

I didn't accuse him of anything the Gardai will do that if they deem fit. What I said was; he failed the course and 2 people are dead and if he wishes, he will be allowed to drive next week without sanction, penalty or restriction. If you can't defend that and want to hide behind false indignation.....so be it. If an event like this doesn't affect the governance of the 'sport' who is being dis-respectful to the memory of the dead people?

homer simpson

cournioni wrote: »

Without being disrespectful.

Generally speaking, how were these people allowed to be within touching distance of these cars? It is exactly this kind of complacency that causes tragic events like yesterday.

It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way. Like yourself, I also know people that witnessed the accident.

Nothing disrespectful in your post at all, I just personally don't think the in's and out's of the accident should be discussed here at all there is an investigation going on and most of what will be said will be pure speculation. the only reason I'm engaging here with some here is because they quite simply don't have a clue what they are talking about

Ask the people who witnessed the accident do they think that where the people were stood was safe? From what I'm told it seemed a safe place to stand. Indeed by all accounts where they were standing is recommended by the FIA as the safe place to stand when at a jump, that is after the jump. It is often discussed in rallying circles if that in all likelihood if a car is going to crash it will be after a jump and that rule should be changed. In the case of this accident they were well back from the jump itself it seems and were safe in that sense, or so one would have thought.

There is no doubting that some things will need to be looked at in terms of safety, but believe me when I say there is huge emphasis on safety as it is in the sport, if you attend an event you will see that from the amount of official car's who drive though the stage with approved safety plans to check, Stages can and will be stopped regularly as a result of people standing in stupid places, but by all accounts where the people were standing yesterday was not a stupid place to stand, it was not a place where you would expect a car to go off the road.

cournioni

rayofsunshine wrote: »

these people who are all talkin about are my family they were in a place where was proved safe ACCIDENTS do happen!!!!!!!!!!!!! it no fault rallying is dangerous every clap handy knws that but please do keep repeating yourselves that helping my family joes familys and helping my 2 relatives in hospital recovering so much faster!!!!!!!!!!! stop pointing blame and go find something to do with yer lives

I apologise for any offence caused, but we are discussing making the sport safer for the spectators. The point is that accidents do happen in rally and that everything should be done to prevent what happened yesterday from happening again. I'm not just referring to yesterday when I am posting, I am making a general point about the safety of spectators in the sport.

When you say it was proved safe, proved safe by who? People should not be within touching distance of these cars, end of story in my opinion. If nothing is done to make the sport safer, accidents like yesterday will happen again.

Likewise, I wish those that are injured a speedy recovery.

6 SPEED

I'm very disappointed with the people of Boards and more importantly the moderators of Boards ! A Wife, Son and Daughter have lost their father and a boyfriend has lost his girlfriend and his unborn child. Imagine if any of them people came on here and saw the stuff that was being wrote :
''It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way''

''What I am saying is that the spectators shouldn't have been where they were''

Over on rallyforums.com which is a dedicated site for Irish Rallying they handled the situation very well be locking the thread and releasing OFFICIAL news when it was released by an OFFICIAL source and locking it again,etc. Just a bit of common sense prevails here for some people.

Not many people has said this in the 10 pages so far but ... Rest In Peace Joe and Caroline, two very committed people to Rallying. These people weren't normal rally fans, Joe had been involved with rallying longer than I'm alive and that's 20 years while Caroline was a Navigator and was involved with the Organising committees for some events.

TIP FOR MODS - Lock this thread and only post OFFICIAL FACTS AND REPORTS about the matter and that will stop people jumping to conclusions

EDIT- Fair enough the first post was an official statement

breffni666

Rallying around roads with no runoff area and the surface in pure ****e is an accident waiting to happen especially in Cavan where the roads are crap to start with. Do people have to sign something to the effect that's its their own fault if they get killed/injured at these things because a safety expert would tell you that this is a mad sport with a serious accident just around the corner. Condolences to the bereaved.

BUBBLE WRAP

Happyman42 wrote: »

Enough of the handwringing.....what is dis-respectful is allowing these people to be in a dangerous place in the the first instance...don't you think? It is quite evident that you can't 'respect' safety at events of this type.



Of course it's inevitable, show me one rally team that haven't crashed out of an event like this...show me a team that doesn't strigently prepare their cars to survive an exit like this?
The tragedy is that nobody intervened to ensure the safety of spectators. If rallies were stopped because people won't move from dangerous areas then, very soon they would, because there would be no reason to be standing there. A large element position themselves around a course at spots where exits are likely, you will do your argument no favours denying this simple fact. You only have to look at what people post to youtube to see what one of the main attractions of this sport are.
It's the same as any sport, you want to see teams, individuals tested to the extreme.




I know this ^, these are participation criteria, there is no testing on rally circuits is there? This driver failed but he is allowed to participate the following week with no sanction, penalty or caution, why? because his 'failure' is part of the attraction, if that is to be the case then organisers can't shirk their responsibility to the innocent spectators, whatever the cost.
The simple expedient of introducing a speed limit if people are in dangerous areas would be a start and very easy to do with modern technology.



He wasn't good enough though. 2 people are dead.

Not true, the track accually is tested twice or three times before the even.


Ah ya a speed limit, great idea...We could also make a rule for soccer player to walk instead of run....:rolleyes:

Your arguement isnt good enough either, its helping no one. :mad:

Happyman42

Here's a vid that shows official rally 'safety' at work. You can see loads of this type of thing on a quick trawl of youtube, I'm not picking on one club, it is my point that this 'disregard' is prevalent right around the country and is the reason I stopped going anywhere near a rally or would allow my children to go, I had the same attitude to soccer until it cleaned up it act too. This particular one takes place in a closed quarry which could be easily marshalled if the will was there.
Have a look at the spectators standing on a corner at 52 seconds and then again when the car comes back around at 2.50secs. Indefensible and crimminal disregard for safety imo.

BUBBLE WRAP

First of that video is pure sh1t,

I had the same attitude to soccer until it cleaned up it act too

^ part of your comment made me LOL!

homer simpson

6 SPEED wrote: »

Wife, Son and Daughter have lost their father and a boyfriend has lost his girlfriend and his unborn child. Imagine if any of them people came on here and saw the stuff that was being wrote :
''It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way''

''What I am saying is that the spectators shouldn't have been where they were''


Not many people has said this in the 10 pages so far but ... Rest In Peace Joe and Caroline, two very committed people to Rallying. These people weren't normal rally fans, Joe had been involved with rallying longer than I'm alive and that's 20 years while Caroline was a Navigator and was involved with the Organising committees for some events.

Well said , we all know your older than 20 though :pac:

AEDIC

6 SPEED wrote: »

I'm very disappointed with the people of Boards and more importantly the moderators of Boards ! A Wife, Son and Daughter have lost their father and a boyfriend has lost his girlfriend and his unborn child. Imagine if any of them people came on here and saw the stuff that was being wrote :
''It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way''

''What I am saying is that the spectators shouldn't have been where they were''

Over on rallyforums.com which is a dedicated site for Irish Rallying they handled the situation very well be locking the thread and releasing OFFICIAL news when it was released by an OFFICIAL source and locking it again,etc. Just a bit of common sense prevails here for some people.

Not many people has said this in the 10 pages so far but ... Rest In Peace Joe and Caroline, two very committed people to Rallying. These people weren't normal rally fans, Joe had been involved with rallying longer than I'm alive and that's 20 years while Caroline was a Navigator and was involved with the Organising committees for some events.

TIP FOR MODS - Lock this thread and only post OFFICIAL FACTS AND REPORTS about the matter and that will stop people jumping to conclusions

EDIT- Fair enough the first post was an official statement

Some of what people say in here may be a little harsh considering the circumstances, but to be honest that reflects what is being said in conversations right over the country now.

I dont think anyone is being purposefully disrespectful to the dead and injured, mostly it is commenting and giving opinion on the safety aspects of the sport.

Dreadful circumstances and dreadful accident and my condolences to the grieving families, but I dont think censoring people's opinions (unless they become offensive) is the right way to go.

Happyman42

BUBBLE WRAP wrote: »

First of that video is pure sh1t,

Are you going to tell us why?

^ part of your comment made me LOL!

Would you have sent your children to a soccer match in the 80's before crowd control and spectator violence was stamped out? Cost a lot of money but it was done and the game as an entertainment didn't suffer one bit.
What will happen here is the decision will be taken out of Rallying's hands by responsible authorities.

My name is URL

Happyman42 wrote: »

Here's a vid that shows official rally 'safety' at work.
[...]
Indefensible and crimminal disregard for safety imo.

They chose to stand there. As has been said already, the race marshals can ask people to move, cordon off dangerous spots and advise people on where it is safe to spectate from, but they cannot physically stop people from standing in potential black spots. They just don't have the power to do so on an open stage. It's up to spectators to have a bit of cop on too at the end of the day. People should know that standing on a corner increases the risk of being injured. They take a chance by standing there, the same way drivers take a risk by competing.

cournioni

homer_simpson wrote: »

Nothing disrespectful in your post at all, I just personally don't think the in's and out's of the accident should be discussed here at all there is an investigation going on and most of what will be said will be pure speculation. the only reason I'm engaging here with some here is because they quite simply don't have a clue what they are talking about

Ask the people who witnessed the accident do they think that where the people were stood was safe? From what I'm told it seemed a safe place to stand. Indeed by all accounts where they were standing is recommended by the FIA as the safe place to stand when at a jump, that is after the jump. It is often discussed in rallying circles if that in all likelihood if a car is going to crash it will be after a jump and that rule should be changed. In the case of this accident they were well back from the jump itself it seems and were safe in that sense, or so one would have thought.

There is no doubting that some things will need to be looked at in terms of safety, but believe me when I say there is huge emphasis on safety as it is in the sport, if you attend an event you will see that from the amount of official car's who drive though the stage with approved safety plans to check, Stages can and will be stopped regularly as a result of people standing in stupid places, but by all accounts where the people were standing yesterday was not a stupid place to stand, it was not a place where you would expect a car to go off the road.

I totally agree with everything you've said there.