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Why would anyone want to get married??
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Ah come on now seenitall, there's more shifty goalposts going on in this thread than a game of schoolboy soccer. One minute you're saying they've no way out of a legally binding contract that isn't worth the paper it's written on. Then when I say they have the option of divorce, you use that to say it makes the institution of marriage even more meaningless.
For most people that get married, marriage isn't meaningless. They understand the commitment they are making. They're not forced into it, and it's not cruel to expect them to be responsible for their actions. If two people don't want to make that commitment, that's fine, but they shouldn't expect the same legal protection of the state as those who are married. If marriage was meaningless, the LGBT community won't be long telling you the difference between civil partnership and civil marriage.
I think you're being far too dismissive of people who choose to get married tbh. Nobody forces them to do the big knees up, nobody forces them to do anything. They CHOOSE to do all these things of their own volition. If they choose to get a mortgage is it cruel to expect that they should still be making the same payments in 20 years time? No, because that is a commitment they made, the same as marriage- they knew what they were signing up for.
If the marriage breaks down, they have the option of divorce, or, yknow, they could work together to make the marriage work again and avoid divorce.
But they're not being punished? That's why children aren't legally allowed enter contracts. Again we come back to the example of the mortgage- they made a commitment to a 20 year term at one point in their lives, and now they are responsible for honouring that commitment. It's hardly cruel to expect people to take responsibility for their actions?
How is it shifting goalposts to point out that divorce makes a bit of a mockery of the original idea of marriage ("til death do us part")? I knew you wouldn't like THAT, but calling it shifting goalposts is a tiiiiny bit off. I never said it's impossible to get out of a marriage either, so I don't know where you got that from. But the more traditional a society is, the more important it is to follow the script, to not question the institutions, and the harder it, and its laws (4 years separated before contemplating divorce??), will work at maintaining the status quo. (Not talking about Zanzibar here.)
Good point about the mortgage. Once that most, or even a big enough number of people renege on their mortgage commitments all at about the same time, though, something in the system will have to change accordingly. Things will not be able to just get done because that's the way they've always been done. I think your esteemed institution is on the way of change too, and that's a good thing. That's how it will survive. The divorce is the beginning.
In other words, my point, that you keep missing somehow, is, personal responsibility or not, marriage is simply not as suited as it used to be, to the reality of modern life and the nature of a huge number of relationships nowadays. That's all. I'm not attacking you, your marriage, or anyone's decision to get married, especially. I may question it, but I find it lovely how well some marriages work and for how long they work. It's just that I find marriage a bit, uh, irrelevant these days, a bit redundant. But that's my opinion, only my opinion.
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How is it shifting goalposts to point out that divorce makes a bit of a mockery of the original idea of marriage ("til death do us part")? I knew you wouldn't like THAT, but calling it shifting goalposts is a tiiiiny bit off. I never said it's impossible to get out of a marriage either, so I don't know where you got that from. But the more traditional a society is, the more important it is to follow the script, to not question the institutions, and the harder it, and its laws (4 years separated before contemplating divorce??), will work at maintaining the status quo. (Not talking about Zanzibar here.)
I think the idea of divorce is a great idea for those that feel they need it. I know plenty of people that are separated a lot longer than four years that still never bothered with divorce, and I was at the divorce party of one woman who used the four year technically separated but still living together to get a divorce from her husband not long after it became legal here. So I'm absolutely not opposed to divorce, what I am opposed to is this idea that people are forced to stay in situations they're not happy in. As you quite rightly point out- we're not living in Zanzibar.
Divorce doesn't make a mockery of marriage either, because people who get married, don't do so with the intention of getting divorced. They're still making a commitment, but when circumstances change beyond a point where they are subjected to something they didn't sign up for (such as if one person breaks their marriage vows by cheating, etc), then they have changed the agreement, and so divorce is there as a means to dissolve the originally binding legal contract.Good point about the mortgage. Once that most, or even a big enough number of people renege on their mortgage commitments all at about the same time, though, something in the system will have to change accordingly. Things will not be able to just get done because that's the way they've always been done. I think your esteemed institution is on the way of change too, and that's a good thing. That's how it will survive. The divorce is the beginning.
Ahh here seenitall, I think your inherent negative prejudices towards marriage may be coloring your judgement of my opinion. Marriage isn't MY "esteemed institution" at all. I'll be only too happy when the LGBT community has the same legal recognition of marriage as the heterosexual community. Off the top of my head I know of one lesbian couple who are legally married in another jurisdiction, but their marriage isn't legally recognised in this jurisdiction. The same for my brother in law and his boyfriend, they're due to be married in Scotland in the new year (fcukers keep putting it off, I hate travelling abroad so every time I get hyped up to go, they've put it off again! :pac:).
They too will have the option of divorce should their relationship not work out.In other words, my point, that you keep missing somehow, is, personal responsibility or not, marriage is simply not as suited as it used to be, to the reality of modern life and the nature of a huge number of relationships nowadays. That's all. I'm not attacking you, your marriage, or anyone's decision to get married, especially. I may question it, but I find it lovely how well some marriages work and for how long they work. It's just that I find marriage a bit, uh, irrelevant these days, a bit redundant. But that's my opinion, only my opinion.
Ahh I know you're not personally attacking or any of the rest of it seenitall, I still loves ya (don't worry, that's not a marriage proposal :pac:), and certainly I agree with you that the legislation and the definition of marriage needs to change to accommodate the needs of a modern society (they could do too with having a look at doing away with the separation clause in divorce laws and looking at family and adoption laws while they're at it!), but I think you're far wide of the mark in saying that marriage is redundant and irrelevant as an institution. The current legislation certainly is redundant and irrelevant in some quarters, but that's nothing that can't be changed and updated to reflect the changes in modern relationships in a modern society.0 -
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people don't need a piece of paper to "commit" to each other. Marriage is an old fashioned idea geared towards taking care of the male, and is raplidy declining as there are all kinds of different "families" now.
And before anyone says oh this is selfish and if you don't get married you cannot work out your problems..........people who are NOT married and live together have the freedom to walk away any time they want - they don't tho - they stay together for years and work out their problems too - its about love, not a contract.
Get married if you wish - your choice - but remember life is long and people change - you are not the same person you were in your 20's and 40's. By all means get married, but start saving for the divorce once the marriage contract is signed. There are too many options in life now to not get divorced - we're not back in the dark ages anymore.
THe only people that gain from people getting married are the salespeople who promote it and the priests that know nothing about marriage at all - won't see them for dust at the divorce.
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fishy fishy wrote: »
THe only people that gain from people getting married are the salespeople who promote it and the priests that know nothing about marriage at all - won't see them for dust at the divorce.:D
Well the majority of people who get married gain from it. From the enjoyment of the big day, to being officially with the person you want to spend your life with and being able to call them your husband or wife rather than "partner" and then there are all the legal gains from income tax infinitives to being the next of kin etc etc.
I think a people saying they don't want to get married if they plan on spending their life with someone are doing so to be a bit rebellious, just doing something different and I'd imagine there is an anti-catholic sintement in there too.0 -
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fishy fishy wrote: »people don't need a piece of paper to "commit" to each other. Marriage is an old fashioned idea geared towards taking care of the male, and is raplidy declining as there are all kinds of different "families" now.
What utter nonsense. You do realise there's a fight going on for LGBT marriage equality don't you? LGBT people want to have the option to marry with the same rights as heterosexual couples. Marriage isn't going anywhere, and it was never "geared towards taking care of the male". Jesus, where do people come up with this stuff? :pac:And before anyone says oh this is selfish and if you don't get married you cannot work out your problems..........people who are NOT married and live together have the freedom to walk away any time they want - they don't tho - they stay together for years and work out their problems too - its about love, not a contract.
As Tina Turner would say- "What's love got to do with it?". I don't love my wife any more or any less since I married her, and would have continued to love her regardless of marriage or not. BUT, marriage IS a contract that solidifies in law my rights, her rights, and the rights of our children. It's quite a powerful contract actually that has a lot less to do with love and a lot more to do with legal rights and responsibilities.Get married if you wish - your choice - but remember life is long and people change - you are not the same person you were in your 20's and 40's. By all means get married, but start saving for the divorce once the marriage contract is signed. There are too many options in life now to not get divorced - we're not back in the dark ages anymore.
Why would anyone start saving for a divorce the minute they got married? Why would they add to their assets only to have them halved in a divorce settlement? I presume you've heard of DIY divorces that can be done on a shoestring? Divorce, just like marriage, is only as expensive as you make it.
I think it's yourself is still stuck in the dark ages tbh, but I'm sure you meant plenty other options besides marriage? The only other way I know how to get out of a marriage contract besides divorce is if one or other parties to the contract were to die.THe only people that gain from people getting married are the salespeople who promote it and the priests that know nothing about marriage at all - won't see them for dust at the divorce.:D
Yeah, that €20 backhander to the Registrar of Civil Marriages for keeping the ceremony short and simple really broke me. 15 minutes, no need for all the pomp and circumstance and my marriage is just as legally valid as my brother who spent €42k on a day out for the mother.
See? Only as expensive as you make it, personal responsibility and all that jazz.0 -
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What utter nonsense. You do realise there's a fight going on for LGBT marriage equality don't you? LGBT people want to have the option to marry with the same rights as heterosexual couples. Marriage isn't going anywhere, and it was never "geared towards taking care of the male". Jesus, where do people come up with this stuff? :pac:
Having a "right" to do something does not mean that people are going to rush out and do it. Thats about equality - not marriage. Don't you get that. Marriage was always geared towards the male - leaving mammy doing all the work for him into a wife who did all the work for him - thankfully with EQUALITY that has now disappeared and the wife will tell him to do his own &*^^*^ laundry - sorry if that offends but it's true.
As Tina Turner would say- "What's love got to do with it?". I don't love my wife any more or any less since I married her, and would have continued to love her regardless of marriage or not. BUT, marriage IS a contract that solidifies in law my rights, her rights, and the rights of our children. It's quite a powerful contract actually that has a lot less to do with love and a lot more to do with legal rights and responsibilities.
go to a solicitor and get a contract drawn up - you don't have to marry someone to have "rights". Plenty of people live together and have contracts for "rights". Marriage is not the only solution to legalities
Why would anyone start saving for a divorce the minute they got married? Why would they add to their assets only to have them halved in a divorce settlement? I presume you've heard of DIY divorces that can be done on a shoestring? Divorce, just like marriage, is only as expensive as you make it.
you don't really know how this marriage/divorce thing goes, do you? being with someone for the rest of your life is un-natural - you only get one life - go and experience it - don't stick with the same person for the rest of your life if you are not happy. Live a little. It will be worth it. Don't get into a legal contract that you have to get out of later on and that will cost you. Don't endure - live!
I think it's yourself is still stuck in the dark ages tbh, but I'm sure you meant plenty other options besides marriage? The only other way I know how to get out of a marriage contract besides divorce is if one or other parties to the contract were to die.
divorce or death - you really are a marriage advocate. lol. I'd rather NOT get into the situation in the first place.
Yeah, that €20 backhander to the Registrar of Civil Marriages for keeping the ceremony short and simple really broke me. 15 minutes, no need for all the pomp and circumstance and my marriage is just as legally valid as my brother who spent €42k on a day out for the mother.
backhanders to the registrar - already you are cheating - you are going in to fill out a legal contract and you are giving backhanders at the door - if you can't stay straight on the actual day of your legal contract, then get saving for the divorce. :P:P
See? Only as expensive as you make it, personal responsibility and all that jazz.
or as cheap
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Emilia Hallowed Lava wrote: »How do you know it won't be bliss forever? The majority of marriages do last forever (i.e. until death) in case you hadn't noticed.
nothing is bliss forever - anyone that says any different is not being truthful - people like each other, hate each other, abuse each other, hurt each other - the difference is that people in a "marriage" seem to think they have to put up with it - they don't.
As far as people changing, yes they change but that doesn't mean they will want to break up and by the time people get to their 50's do they really want to be going back on the market? Most are happy to have a companion as they get older rather than be alone.
true - some people might want to settle in their 50's with a "companion" - others are having more fun in their 50's than they ever did in their 20's - why curtail that - life is for living - why settle for a 'companion'
When you meet the right person maybe you will change your views on staying with the one person.
I have and have been with that person for years - that is of course after meeting "not the right person" - but at least I had a choice .
For those who want to get married - go ahead. For those who want to live their own lives the way they want without being legally bound to another person - go for it. I choose freedom myself:D 0 -
And nobody has suggested you should do any different. Get married if you want to. Don't if you don't want to.fishy fishy wrote: »For those who want to get married - go ahead. For those who want to live their own lives the way they want without being legally bound to another person - go for it. I choose freedom myself:D
Most of the bile on this thread has been from people who not only don't want to get married, but want to insult/criticise those who do.0 -
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And nobody has suggested you should do any different. Get married if you want to. Don't if you don't want to.
Most of the bile on this thread has been from people who not only don't want to get married, but want to insult/criticise those who do.
na, the people who don't believe in the marriage trap are way more chilled out than that.
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Why would anyone start saving for a divorce the minute they got married? Why would they add to their assets only to have them halved in a divorce settlement? I presume you've heard of DIY divorces that can be done on a shoestring? Divorce, just like marriage, is only as expensive as you she makes it.
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fishy fishy wrote: »Having a "right" to do something does not mean that people are going to rush out and do it. Thats about equality - not marriage. Don't you get that. Marriage was always geared towards the male - leaving mammy doing all the work for him into a wife who did all the work for him - thankfully with EQUALITY that has now disappeared and the wife will tell him to do his own &*^^*^ laundry - sorry if that offends but it's true.
I'm not saying anyone's going to rush into anything fishy, but it's about marriage equality - LGBT couples having the same rights as married heterosexual couples. I don't know where you get this idea that marriage was always geared towards men and then try and make the point that divorce is skewered in favour of women! Marriage is much more than just the gender roles within the relationship. It doesn't offend at all simply because it's not true!go to a solicitor and get a contract drawn up - you don't have to marry someone to have "rights". Plenty of people live together and have contracts for "rights". Marriage is not the only solution to legalities
You DO have to marry someone to have marital rights though, and any contract you draw up, will still be superceded by legislation. Marriage is the only solution if you want the same rights as a married couple.you don't really know how this marriage/divorce thing goes, do you?
I'd say I have a better grasp of how it works than you do tbh given what you've posted so far!being with someone for the rest of your life is un-natural - you only get one life - go and experience it - don't stick with the same person for the rest of your life if you are not happy. Live a little. It will be worth it. Don't get into a legal contract that you have to get out of later on and that will cost you. Don't endure - live!
Ehh, I'm experiencing plenty of life. Marriage doesn't stop anyone doing just that. I'm perfecly happy to spend the rest of my life married to one person, and at the same time I spend plenty of time with other people too. I really don't know what to say to the rest of that, but tbh it comes off as you projecting your own insecurities about your own quality of life and what you think would be the detrimental effect marriage would have on that. It doesn't have any such effect.divorce or death - you really are a marriage advocate. lol. I'd rather NOT get into the situation in the first place.
Nope, I'm not advocating that marriage is for everybody either! But what you're doing is advocating that it's for nobody, while thinking you can have the same rights as a married couple. Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?backhanders to the registrar - already you are cheating - you are going in to fill out a legal contract and you are giving backhanders at the door - if you can't stay straight on the actual day of your legal contract, then get saving for the divorce.
Ohh geez, please tell me you're not actually serious? It was a token gesture for performing a 15 minute Civil Marriage ceremony. That's all the the ceremony takes. That gesture had no bearing on the actual ceremony. I think there's a bit of winding up going on here tbh, you seem to be under the impression that all marriages are doomed to end in divorce. That kind of thinking is tbh rather juvenile at best, immature at worst.or as cheap;)
Isn't that my point?0 -
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I'm not saying anyone's going to rush into anything fishy, but it's about marriage equality - LGBT couples having the same rights as married heterosexual couples. I don't know where you get this idea that marriage was always geared towards men and then try and make the point that divorce is skewered in favour of women! Marriage is much more than just the gender roles within the relationship. It doesn't offend at all simply because it's not true!
where did I say divorce is in favor of women - you don't need divorce if you don't get married.
You DO have to marry someone to have marital rights though, and any contract you draw up, will still be superceded by legislation. Marriage is the only solution if you want the same rights as a married couple.
why not just leave with somebody until you grow out of them or not - you don't need to get married to care/love somebody - does love have to be a legal document now
I'd say I have a better grasp of how it works than you do tbh given what you've posted so far!
you may have - if you believe in marriage - I however don't so I would say I have a better grasp of how things work without having to draw up a legal document to love somebody.
Ehh, I'm experiencing plenty of life. Marriage doesn't stop anyone doing just that. I'm perfecly happy to spend the rest of my life married to one person, and at the same time I spend plenty of time with other people too. I really don't know what to say to the rest of that, but tbh it comes off as you projecting your own insecurities about your own quality of life and what you think would be the detrimental effect marriage would have on that. It doesn't have any such effect.
good luck to you - if that's what you want. There are people who are perfectly happy to spend the rest of their life with somebody but do not need a priest/solicitor to tell them its okay.
Nope, I'm not advocating that marriage is for everybody either! But what you're doing is advocating that it's for nobody, while thinking you can have the same rights as a married couple. Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?
think you better read my posts again - you are projecting your own thoughts onto what you Think I am saying.
Ohh geez, please tell me you're not actually serious? It was a token gesture for performing a 15 minute Civil Marriage ceremony. That's all the the ceremony takes. That gesture had no bearing on the actual ceremony. I think there's a bit of winding up going on here tbh, you seem to be under the impression that all marriages are doomed to end in divorce. That kind of thinking is tbh rather juvenile at best, immature at worst.
LOL - ya I was trying to have fun with you - obviously you took it too seriously - if that's what marriage does for ya.......
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